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Honestly I feel the epitome of what a stalker should be like is executed well in the VEATs. The Bane/Nightwidow specializations are stealthy, deal impressive ST damage, have a nice opening burst via Slash/Shatter and contribute to team AoE with Spin-Dartburst/Crowd Control.|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
I play Stalkers like Stalkers, because that's what they are.
Then again, I'm weird; I actually like that they're focused on single-target damage and spiking. I'd like to see them be better at what they're supposed to be used for so people will actually start using them in the intended manner instead of "lulz weak Scrapper!" |
While I know they're somewhat specialized in their role and designed to be more team friendly, that's kinda what we want and need for stalkers. They just aren't team friendly, and there is really no reason to not take a Brute/Scrapper over them at any given time.
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I don't know how you could really make them team friendly aside from either giving them buffs or AOE. Two options that I don't think are all that realistic.|
Originally Posted by Civility
Honestly I feel the epitome of what a stalker should be like is executed well in the VEATs. The Bane/Nightwidow specializations are stealthy, deal impressive ST damage, have a nice opening burst via Slash/Shatter and contribute to team AoE with Spin-Dartburst/Crowd Control.
While I know they're somewhat specialized in their role and designed to be more team friendly, that's kinda what we want and need for stalkers. They just aren't team friendly, and there is really no reason to not take a Brute/Scrapper over them at any given time. |
I think the more realistic suggestions are things that move them away from being like other ATs.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Anyone who suggests that stalker aoe damage be furthr nerfed needs to .e slapped in the back of thier heads.
No single Target buff in the world would makup for that, unless t1 single target attacks could one shot +4 lts
When something good happens to me, I can never enjoy it....
I am always too busy looking for the inevitable punchline...
BEHOLD THE POWER OF CHEESE!
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Or maybe you just need to get over your idea that any attack that's not an AoE is a waste of a power choice, and realize that different ATs have different purposes both solo and in teams. You're more than welcome to not play a Stalker because you don't enjoy the playstyle, but demanding that they become something they simply aren't isn't going to help.|
Originally Posted by Test_Rat
Anyone who suggests that stalker aoe damage be furthr nerfed needs to .e slapped in the back of thier heads.
No single Target buff in the world would makup for that, unless t1 single target attacks could one shot +4 lts |
Even if you get your way, you're just going to turn Stalkers into a weaker version of a Brute, which is going to cause them to get discriminated against even more.
At least as far as I'm concerned, if the devs are going to say that Stalkers have a specialty, they need to really make them shine at that one thing as opposed to being "just okay" at it, which they are now. (And anyway, the 5% damage nerf I suggested for Stalker AoE attacks still puts them far above the damage those same attacks do in the hands of Tankers.)
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
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/facepalm|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
And anyway, the 5% damage nerf I suggested for Stalker AoE attacks still puts them far above the damage those same attacks do in the hands of Tankers.
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How anyone gets to the realm of comparing any Stalker damage to that of Tankers is beyond me.
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Stalkers do the second least damage of any melee AT and yet have the least amount of survivability. That's where that came from. It was also a bit of a tongue-in-cheek poke at the guy who said I need to be smacked in the head.|
Originally Posted by tarrantm
How anyone gets to the realm of comparing any Stalker damage to that of Tankers is beyond me.
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Anyway, I don't particularly want a nerf to AoE damage, I'm just saying that I wouldn't mind giving it up as a concession to greater single-target damage. If ST damage were buffed without an AoE nerf, that would be fantastic, and if both got buffed, my head would probably explode from the sheer awesomeness.
But sometimes you have to be willing to give something to get something; single-target damage is what Stalkers are supposed to be good at, and yet Scrappers are better in a straight fight. That never made much sense to me, so I voiced an opinion. It's obvious that I'm a minority in thinking the way I do, but I've always been a bigger fan of concept than min/maxing, so take that as you will.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
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This.|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Or maybe you just need to get over your idea that any attack that's not an AoE is a waste of a power choice...
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I'm a little disturbed by this "Stalkers don't contribute to a team" rap I've been hearing again. It's simple, if you're using your powers and abilities while on a team... you're contributing. If a power choice on a character is not performing in a way or manner *you* feel it should, the character is still contributing. If the player is doing anything to forward the current goal of the team, he's contributing.
Too easy, right?
It's 106 miles to Grandville, we got a full tank of gas, half a pack of cigarettes, it's dark and we're wearing faceless helmets
... Hit it ...
... Hit it ...
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Umm, what? Blasters are the boss killers? Where did you get that idea? Scrappers are the one with the crit rate which increases on bosses. There are more AOE focused blaster sets than scrapper sets on top of that. No, of the blueside ATs, I'd say scrappers deal with bosses (though again, it all varies by sets, an ice blaster is going to be better on a boss than a spines scrapper, while an AR blaster will leave the boss to the DM scrapper). |
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
I disagree. The intended use of a Scrapper is crowd control, to take out minions and lts quickly while the Blasters aim for the bosses. The intended use of a Stalker is to spike the most dangerous enemy in the group and get him/her out of the way to limit the enemies' damage output as quickly as possible. I've been extremely successful with both Scrappers and Stalkers on teams by playing them that way, and haven't once been "lol Stalker"ed off of a team.
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Stalkers are obviously meant for single target spike damage, but that's really not much of a talent given how the game works. They could, as you say, use a bit more oomph in that regard to clearly ensconce themselves in that niche.
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Eh, this is getting further and further off topic, but it all goes back to how I learned to play the game. I spent most of my time as a duo on my Kat/SR Scrapper with an Energy/Energy Blaster. She would focus on the big baddies with her knockback attacks while I kept the lesser critters from getting too close to her. So on teams, I let the big damage dealers go after bosses, while I sweep through the lieutenants and any minions that might make things difficult (like Cimeroran Surgeons) before turning my attention to the boss as well. I've found that this makes things go a lot faster for teams in general and have been complemented for it more than a few times.|
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
Umm, what? Blasters are the boss killers? Where did you get that idea? Scrappers are the one with the crit rate which increases on bosses.
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This extends to AVs as well, such as on the Katie Hannon or Statesman TF; I'll take out bosses while the rest of the team is focused on the AV and work my way down through the minions. It's about doing what benefits the group the most.
Of course, when playing solo, I hit the toughest dude in the group first and work my way down the chain, since that's what makes the most sense when you have no backup.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
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Oh yeah!! I know I've killed my friend that way by using Placate while the boss is on me and that boss end up smashing the !@#$# out of my friend. I sometimes forgot that if I put Placate, my friend(s) will take aggro even though my intention is to score a Critical hit. |
Originally Posted by Smiling_Joe
You likely haven't seen a stalker's placate in the middle of a battle directly kill another team mate very often because stalkers can currently control who and when they placate. The first and only time I incorrectly used placate on a team resulted in a squishy being killed by my intended victim, and I never used it wrong again. Giving stalkers a random aoe placate every time they crit (I believe that was the suggestion) is taking that control away.
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So yeah, I agree with you that giving Stalker "random" Placate can be dangerous for the team. In fact, after leveling several Stalkers to 50, I end up not using Placate much. Placate is one power which I think is under-performing in the Stalker sets since every set has it. They really need to speed up the activation so Stalker can score critical faster, although I am wondering if the Hiddren status comes to quick and we get hit right after that, we may lose the hidden status. ugh...
I still think the best/easy way is to increase Team Critical buff to the old "side-kick" radius. I mean if the current 30'ft isn't impressive to anyone, would it hurt to make it a large radius?
I am weird in a way that I don't want Stalker to have higher damage scale. I would rather have higher critical rate. I enjoy watching criticals. And if I remember correctly, sometimes I could score Double Critical!
Speaking about double critical, we do have a system in the game that allows continuous critical during a period of time (ex: Smoke Flash in Ninja). Maybe Placate can use that direction? After you hide, for the next 2-3 hits in 5s are guaranteed critical? Too strong? hehe The duration is there to make sure you don't wait for the next Total Focus to come up. You either use all your attacks right away or you lose the continuous critical(s). And rather than guaranteed critical rate, maybe an awesome 50% is good?
Edit: Speaking about Placate again, I normally don't take it until I am much higher level. I think my old Stalkers suffer more when they take Placate too early and not having enough attacks early on. Stalker's early stage is indeed one of the worst. I don't like Tankers so I don't know how they suffer but that's another topic.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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The problem with that whole setup is that a red + Aim + 2 AOEs from the Blaster and all you're left with of the group is a boss at about half health. Energy/ Blasters may be the exception. Scrappers are just a meat shield at that point unless you have the burst damage of Shield Charge or Lightning Rod.|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Eh, this is getting further and further off topic, but it all goes back to how I learned to play the game. I spent most of my time as a duo on my Kat/SR Scrapper with an Energy/Energy Blaster. She would focus on the big baddies with her knockback attacks while I kept the lesser critters from getting too close to her. So on teams, I let the big damage dealers go after bosses, while I sweep through the lieutenants and any minions that might make things difficult (like Cimeroran Surgeons) before turning my attention to the boss as well. I've found that this makes things go a lot faster for teams in general and have been complemented for it more than a few times.
This extends to AVs as well, such as on the Katie Hannon or Statesman TF; I'll take out bosses while the rest of the team is focused on the AV and work my way down through the minions. It's about doing what benefits the group the most. Of course, when playing solo, I hit the toughest dude in the group first and work my way down the chain, since that's what makes the most sense when you have no backup. |
Coming back to the Stalker, the issue is that unless Stalker single target kill speed measured in time to dispatch 10 mobs (picking 10 because that's the usual melee AOE limit) exceeds AOE Scrapper kill speed of 10 mobs, there will be a glaring discrepancy between the offensive output of the two ATs while preserving the even bigger defensive disparity. One of the cooler ideas to increase single target kill speed without messing wit h the damage multipliers I read once was to guarantee a critical on any target that is not aggroed on the Stalker.
And should the offensive disparity be actually addressed, it still does not address the inherent squishiness of the Stalker resist sets, which when compared to something like softcapped ninjitsu or SR, really do underperform and I faceplant on them as often as I see Blasters do so. The low hitpoints of Stalkers really isn't an issue with DEF sets because when you get softcapped and aren't being hit, hitpoints are immaterial. With RES sets however, you're getting hit all the time and the low hitpoints are painfully obvious all the time. I don't know what the solution is, maybe have Hide add 20% extra resist all, or half the cost of the self-heal and half the recharge on it or a mix of the two, but either way the resist sets need fixing for Stalkers.
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I read that the issue with this is that apparently it would cause a lot of server-end lag, since the game checks any object within that radius (200ft?) to see whether it's a teammate before applying the critical hit buff. Obviously, a lot more can happen within 200 feet of you than within 30 feet.|
Originally Posted by Jibikao
I still think the best/easy way is to increase Team Critical buff to the old "side-kick" radius. I mean if the current 30'ft isn't impressive to anyone, would it hurt to make it a large radius?
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And as I'm not involved in the coding to City of Heroes, I'm not going to say how easy or difficult that would be to change, except to say that it costs more CPU time to compare sqrt((x2-x1)^2 + (y2-y1)^2) to distance than it does to compare (x2-x1)^2 + (y2-y1)^2 to distance^2.
(I missed that question on a test in college once.
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Originally Posted by tarrantm
Coming back to the Stalker, the issue is that unless Stalker single target kill speed measured in time to dispatch 10 mobs (picking 10 because that's the usual melee AOE limit) exceeds AOE Scrapper kill speed of 10 mobs, there will be a glaring discrepancy between the offensive output of the two ATs while preserving the even bigger defensive disparity.
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| One of the cooler ideas to increase single target kill speed without messing with the damage multipliers I read once was to guarantee a critical on any target that is not aggroed on the Stalker. |
And to go further into your post, softcapped defenses vs damage resistance powers is an issue that plagues everyone in the game, not just Stalkers. Having a little bit of defense is ridiculous because you still get hit quite a lot and it hurts like hell. Having a lot of defense is ridiculous because you never get hit. It's a completely separate issue to what needs to happen to help Stalkers, and those who have softcapped their characters are very lucky that they decided to not lower individual AT defense caps to compensate when the idea was brought to the table after Issue 9.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
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I swear to gawd if they ever get rid of soft capping defense I will quit the game. It costs alot to do this depending on the build and I see it as totally pointless to work on other status cuz nothing other than recharge has this kind of stackable potential.
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Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
I read that the issue with this is that apparently it would cause a lot of server-end lag, since the game checks any object within that radius (200ft?) to see whether it's a teammate before applying the critical hit buff. Obviously, a lot more can happen within 200 feet of you than within 30 feet.
And as I'm not involved in the coding to City of Heroes, I'm not going to say how easy or difficult that would be to change, except to say that it costs more CPU time to compare sqrt((x2-x1)^2 + (y2-y1)^2) to distance than it does to compare (x2-x1)^2 + (y2-y1)^2 to distance^2. (I missed that question on a test in college once. )----- Only if you insist on playing a Stalker as if it's a Scrapper. If a Stalker gains the ability to take down a boss in 2-3 hits fewer than a Scrapper, though, I'd consider that an advantage. As it rests now, even with the option to use Assassin's Strike, my Katana Scrapper will still usually take out a single boss more quickly than my Ninja Blade Stalker. And... you don't feel like that would be overly powerful, especially now that you can get a Tanker on your team to hold aggro no matter what tasks you're doing? That just breaks balance too far in the other direction. And to go further into your post, softcapped defenses vs damage resistance powers is an issue that plagues everyone in the game, not just Stalkers. Having a little bit of defense is ridiculous because you still get hit quite a lot and it hurts like hell. Having a lot of defense is ridiculous because you never get hit. It's a completely separate issue to what needs to happen to help Stalkers, and those who have softcapped their characters are very lucky that they decided to not lower individual AT defense caps to compensate when the idea was brought to the table after Issue 9. |
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So you play a Stalker like a Stalker and still can't out DPS a Scrapper. So why are you arguing with me about it?|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Only if you insist on playing a Stalker as if it's a Scrapper. If a Stalker gains the ability to take down a boss in 2-3 hits fewer than a Scrapper, though, I'd consider that an advantage. As it rests now, even with the option to use Assassin's Strike, my Katana Scrapper will still usually take out a single boss more quickly than my Ninja Blade Stalker.
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| And... you don't feel like that would be overly powerful, especially now that you can get a Tanker on your team to hold aggro no matter what tasks you're doing? That just breaks balance too far in the other direction. |
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| And to go further into your post, softcapped defenses vs damage resistance powers is an issue that plagues everyone in the game, not just Stalkers. Having a little bit of defense is ridiculous because you still get hit quite a lot and it hurts like hell. Having a lot of defense is ridiculous because you never get hit. It's a completely separate issue to what needs to happen to help Stalkers, and those who have softcapped their characters are very lucky that they decided to not lower individual AT defense caps to compensate when the idea was brought to the table after Issue 9. |
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Because your argument is that the only way to improve a Stalker is to make them play like a Scrapper, whereas I'm saying that they need to improve on their existing specialties.|
Originally Posted by tarrantm
So you play a Stalker like a Stalker and still can't out DPS a Scrapper. So why are you arguing with me about it?
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There is no arguing that a Scrapper currently outputs higher DPS than a Stalker either on a team or solo... and despite my seemingly unpopular ideas, I'm not stupid.
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| The amount of the critical or bonus damage can be adjusted to bring them well over Scrapper damage. It's the mechanic of it that plays into a Stalker playing like a Stalker and not like a Scrapper. |
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| I thought they couldn't do it even if they wanted to because it is a function of the mobs chance to actually hit a toon and not something that could be adjusted on the toon side. |
If I recall correctly, Castle was actually the one who shot down the idea, based on the fact that they'd just done the GDN fairly recently prior to the inclusion of the Inventions system, and said that a second set of defense nerfs would just be unfair.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
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No, my argument was to measure Stalker performance by the global performance meter that dictates progression within the game, which is kills/time. Unless you're talking about improving Stalker resist sets, which are underperforming versus their defense sets, which again doesn't compare their playstyle to Scrappers.|
Originally Posted by Chad Gulzow-Man
Because your argument is that the only way to improve a Stalker is to make them play like a Scrapper, whereas I'm saying that they need to improve on their existing specialties.
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There is no arguing that a Scrapper currently outputs higher DPS than a Stalker either on a team or solo... and despite my seemingly unpopular ideas, I'm not stupid.
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| They don't need to do well over Scrapper damage, they just need to do a small but obvious amount better. Making every hit on an otherwise aggroed enemy do critical damage is going to be the equivalent of giving a Scrapper a butter knife and a Stalker a chainsaw, and all it's going to do is make the Scrapper fan base complain. |
As for the critical damage, it doesn't have to be 200% damage, or even 150%, it can be 125% critical damage or any other extra damage within reason. But if Stalkers were the only AT to get a Chainsaw powerset, I just might play them again.Quote:
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Nope, they could very well limit the maximum amount of defense your character can have based on their AT, just as every AT has a max amount of hitpoints and a maximum damage buff. They've already done this with damage resistance--Tanks cap out at what, 90% resist, while Blasters cap out at I think 50%? If I recall correctly, Castle was actually the one who shot down the idea, based on the fact that they'd just done the GDN fairly recently prior to the inclusion of the Inventions system, and said that a second set of defense nerfs would just be unfair. |
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This is definitely true.|
Originally Posted by tarrantm
Well, Scrappers have well over Stalker hitpoints. We don't go around saying that Scrappers have a small but obvious amount better
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| As for the critical damage, it doesn't have to be 200% damage, or even 150%, it can be 125% critical damage or any other extra damage within reason. |
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| But if Stalkers were the only AT to get a Chainsaw powerset, I just might play them again. |
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| It definitely has made defense a panacea for PvE while resistance Stalker sets struggle for equitable treatment. I guess they could give every other group of mobs Vengeance to compensate.. |
(Note: I know this was just a joke on your part.)
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
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I'm out of my element in this thread, and do not presume expertise over experienced Stalker players. So, this is little more than a question from a casual observer ... but here goes: does it really matter if Stalks aren't directly competitive with Scraps in terms of overall defenses and average damage?
I've seen people (not necessarily in this thread) pose the question: why, in the GR world, would a team choose a Stalker over a Scrapper? Well sure, if we're speaking in a competitive sense, they wouldn't. Speaking as a Mastermind enthusiast, they wouldn't pick me, either. MMs don't really bring anything to the table that some other AT doesn't do better. BG is great, but we don't have the mez protection of Tanks or Brutes or Scraps or even Stalks. Our buffs are weak compared to Defenders. So, a competitive speed TF team isn't looking for Masterminds. Good luck getting the pity spot on an LRSF run. Those teams don't really want Blasters, either. Mez-proof and buffed Brutes/Scraps provide tons of damage and survivability. I'm not exactly thrilled about that fact, but it isn't a reflection on Stalkers.
Stalks get decent defenses, massive single-target burst damage, and criticals. They solo great, and they do just fine in conventional teams or PUGs. Suppose you decide that to "compete" with Scrappers, Stalks need to inflict lots more damage ... well, if that happened you've probably made Blasters even more obsolete. How much more damage is reasonable before it starts to compete with the Brute, who has to stay in constant motion stoking Rage to keep his damage high? Where does it end?
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This is a valid point. |
Originally Posted by FlyingCodeMonkey
I'm out of my element in this thread, and do not presume expertise over experienced Stalker players. So, this is little more than a question from a casual observer ... but here goes: does it really matter if Stalks aren't directly competitive with Scraps in terms of overall defenses and average damage?
I've seen people (not necessarily in this thread) pose the question: why, in the GR world, would a team choose a Stalker over a Scrapper? Well sure, if we're speaking in a competitive sense, they wouldn't. Speaking as a Mastermind enthusiast, they wouldn't pick me, either. MMs don't really bring anything to the table that some other AT doesn't do better. BG is great, but we don't have the mez protection of Tanks or Brutes or Scraps or even Stalks. Our buffs are weak compared to Defenders. So, a competitive speed TF team isn't looking for Masterminds. Good luck getting the pity spot on an LRSF run. Those teams don't really want Blasters, either. Mez-proof and buffed Brutes/Scraps provide tons of damage and survivability. I'm not exactly thrilled about that fact, but it isn't a reflection on Stalkers. Stalks get decent defenses, massive single-target burst damage, and criticals. They solo great, and they do just fine in conventional teams or PUGs. Suppose you decide that to "compete" with Scrappers, Stalks need to inflict lots more damage ... well, if that happened you've probably made Blasters even more obsolete. How much more damage is reasonable before it starts to compete with the Brute, who has to stay in constant motion stoking Rage to keep his damage high? Where does it end? |
But the deeper problem in Stalker is more than just not having the highest damage with lower HP than Scrapper. There's been data mining that shows that many people pick Stalkers but they end up abandoning them. It shows there is some problems with the design of Stalker, and mainly I think the problem is that
1. lower level Stalker is pathetically weak due to one Assassin Strike and Placate (placate is a terrible low level power if you pick it). Placate is only decent when you solo.
2. Some of the Stalker sets have no aoe or very weak aoe power so they feel "inferior" when others deal aoe damage (this also applies to Claw/Dual Blade/Electricity because their aoe powers come much later). I know there are Stalkers who try to setup AS in every group but sometimes after the first AS is off, the whole mob is about gone. It's like why bother setting an AS?
I think the dev just needs to smooth out Stalker's Early Stage and increase Team critical buff range so Stalker almost always gets that buff on a team. I love Stalker mainly for the critical. I get this weird excitement when I see text "Critical".
I don't think Stalker needs fancy things like "chance to placate". I think that is hard to create/balance and can cause more problems if your Stalker teams with other squishies.
I actually have been thinking that maybe they should just change Placate to Smoke Flash kind of buff power so Stalker can score critical during a very limited time. 10s like what the Ninja has is too long. Maybe 5-6s? This way a Stalker can placate and use two heavy hitters to finish off two minions if he has no aoe powers.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
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Yeah, this is my read on stalkers as well. I like the concept of stalkers, but for being so squishy, they don't put out enough damage. They die quick and they don't kill so fast.|
Originally Posted by Mod_Noc
As much as I hate stalkers I can see them having the highest amount of damage since they have the lowest HP and it is the same as tankers having the Highest HP and having the lowest damage out put
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I always figured Stalkers were supposed to be like Blasters of melee, Glass cannons so to speak. Fragile assasins. Give them higher ST damage and I think more teams will want Stalkers and they could be more fun to play.
"Where does he get those wonderful toys?" - The Joker
I have only one stalker, not yet even 40, who's been around a good, long time. I've shelved him due to the issues he had with his secondary..he's /dark, so two of his powers negated his inherent power. This is something I'm grateful to castle for changing.
My stalker played quite well on teams, especially with melee teams, post the previous buff. That said, the 'if the target lives' part of the AT buff is a bit awkward, and I agree with the critical team buff being a bit restrictive toward teams that skew ranged.
The trick I go toward is this, however...what is the stalker specialty? I know, I know. single target burst kills. Yet target elimination is a hard sell on many teams. If it's a single foe that needs to be killed with an assassin's strike, it will often be mezzed by anything competent with a mez, or targeted by other damage dealer that can eliminate them with an extra hit or two.
The trick with stalkers is that they're good with eliminating the first guy, but they slow down on the second, third, or whatnot.
So here's my what if...what if the added critical hit were redacted, but stalkers instead received a burst buff to damage with each foe they defeated? ( a non-stacking boost as well.) The boost I'm taking about would be strong but quick...something to mesh with their inherent. You polish off one guy with your big BU+AS combo, placate depending, but have a secondary burst of damage then to be able to get guy #2. If there's a guy #3, you can go for them too, but the first round of buffs quickly fade. It rewards the Stalker for target elimination, but makes the burst damage no longer be centered on randomness or a long recharging setup. It skews stalker out of the 'super single enemy killer' to 'enemy killer.' In a team situation, I can understand where an ally killing a foe before the stalker could be aggravating; that said, the stalker could also finish targets fellow players damage, making the 'defeat' boost more accessible as well.
Obviously such a boost would skew stalkers more toward soft target elimination, but since they already have tools for hard target elimination, I wouldn't see this as a bad thing.
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Originally Posted by FlyingCodeMonkey
I'm out of my element in this thread, and do not presume expertise over experienced Stalker players. So, this is little more than a question from a casual observer ... but here goes: does it really matter if Stalks aren't directly competitive with Scraps in terms of overall defenses and average damage?
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And you're right--Stalkers really aren't supposed to be compared directly to Scrappers in the eyes of the designers; unfortunately, most players see that they have the exact same powersets and assume they ought to play the same.The main problem with the Stalker AT as it is now is that it actively penalizes the fast, frantic playstyle that Scrappers are known for and greatly rewards an almost unnaturally slow pace in combat. While this isn't an issue when soloing--a Stalker, played properly, is far less likely to die in a solo mission than a Scrapper--it causes issues on teams because the favored pace of the Stalker slows down the entire group at worst or is completely irrelevant to the team (i.e., you may as well be door sitting) at best.
As Ice_Wall said a few posts after yours, Stalkers were intended to be the villainous equivalent to Blasters when they were introduced, and the "glass cannon" metaphor is very apt for their intent. Unfortunately, it seems that they only got the glass part of the equation right; Stalkers are very squishy, but they don't do enough sustained damage to really warrant it. This is why some people are pushing for a buff to their defensive abilities and HP (remove the glass since there's no cannon), others are pushing for a straight buff to damage (fix the cannon and leave the glass), and some of us want some sort of balance of the two.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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How about debuffs? I've always felt that stalkers are missing an important RPG assassin staple: poison! I've always wanted a "poison blades" buff on a dual blades stalker, maybe something that adds -regen to all attacks, similar to how the buff in fire armor now adds fire damage to all attacks. Not sure how this would work on non-weapon sets like electric melee though. Still, being able to throw some debuffs on a tough oppenent would help the stalker's team situation.
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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia
I don't know how you could really make them team friendly aside from either giving them buffs or AOE. Two options that I don't think are all that realistic.
I think the more realistic suggestions are things that move them away from being like other ATs. |
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That's not a bad idea... make Stalker criticals (or at least the ones that activate from hide) add a regeneration debuff. It even fits the concept of the severity of the wounds that Stalkers supposedly inflict, or allows the player to roleplay that he/she has struck with poison.|
Originally Posted by Zaloopa
How about debuffs? I've always felt that stalkers are missing an important RPG assassin staple: poison! I've always wanted a "poison blades" buff on a dual blades stalker, maybe something that adds -regen to all attacks, similar to how the buff in fire armor now adds fire damage to all attacks. Not sure how this would work on non-weapon sets like electric melee though. Still, being able to throw some debuffs on a tough oppenent would help the stalker's team situation.
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I like it. I'm not sure if it's enough to encourage teams to bring Stalkers along, but way to think outside the box.
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Originally Posted by Nethergoat
it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!
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Then again, I'm weird; I actually like that they're focused on single-target damage and spiking. I'd like to see them be better at what they're supposed to be used for so people will actually start using them in the intended manner instead of "lulz weak Scrapper!"
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Look at some of the most successful PvE sets for Stalkers: Elec and Spines. They both have access to powerful AoE that assists the team and helps them move faster. Single Target damage is not ever needed on a team, and hardly wanted after maybe level 12.
The devs have said more than once that a Stalker is more like a Blaster than a Scrapper, and if you adjust your playstyle accordingly, you'll find that it's actually pretty true.
Theres a reason that everything a Stalker can do, a Scrapper can do better.
If they're going to have the fewest hit points and the lowest defense/resist numbers of any melee AT, then they ought to do more damage than a Scrapper to compensate, rather than less.
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