What can the other secondaries do better than /Shield?
Quote:
I think you're overreacting to the potential change. Even if SC were to get it's damage cut in half, a fire/shield would still be a damage monster.
|
Originally Posted by Werner
Yeah, I don't think I'll continue forward with my IOing plans for my Fire/Shield, and I'll probably dump what I've bought so far back into the base. My intent was to make a damage powerhouse. The AoE portion of that now sounds likely to take a big hit, probably about the time I finish earning the billions of influence and dumping it all into the character, since that takes me months. No thanks. No longer worth the time investment.
I'm not saying that it shouldn't be examined. Perhaps it should. I'm just not going to bother IOing something that's definitely going to be examined. I am way, way too tired of fixing or abandoning carefully-crafted characters that the devs nerf or even buff into something not at all like what I planned. Perhaps if someone could just tell me what powers and which IOs might be STABLE for a couple years, it'll be worth the investment. But obviously that can't happen. At this point, I'm kind of thinking I'll never bother with a top end build again. I'll just keep leveling up alts until I tire of that, and then give up on the game completely. Again, not saying not to nerf Shield Charge. Not working as intended, blah blah blah, fine, whatever. But I'm just not sure if I can take it any more. |
Quote:
I don't think any of this is a big deal. At all. However I do believe that people making a big deal of this(regardless of what side of the discussion that person falls) are being foolish.
|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
I think the discussion has moved past where you think it is.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Castle say he is the one that did the original design for SC? And if I'm reading correctly it never made it into the live game following that design principle. He then Ok'd it for a massive change, but didn't bother to check the results of that change. He also referenced incorrect information about the power suggesting he didn't even have the right information until Arcana provided it (I don't think I was alone in my "who farted" look at the numbers he posted). How long would this issue have gone unnoticed for? I mean it wasn't noticed from the other numerous postings about the power prior to this. I'm honestly not trying to be disrespectful I'm trying to find out why this break down has occurred. There are a lot of things I'd like to see happen in this game. They have less likelihood of happening if the powers team needs to revisit things and dump hours and hours into fixing something that should have been rectified before it ever went live. And if not then, then certainly when a second change to the power was authorized. It really really really has nothing to do with seeing the future like SDragon has unsuccessfully deflected with. Castle said he designed the power to operate in a certain manner and it initially went live not operating in that manner. You don't need a crystal ball to determine a problem. You don't even need any foresight, just the ability to cross your t's and dot your i's. If you want me to thank him for saying he'll eventually fix this issue I won't. It is unnecessary. In fact, I'm not convinced dumping more hours into this set is worthwhile because it sounds like a redesign of the power is what will happen. It won't happen for many months still and by then everyone will have grown accustom to how it functions and it is just going to be another nightmare when it goes down. I'd rather he just sets it back to the original live value so that the problem is less glaring and then move on to other projects. I will say thanks for looking into FA. In fact, I already did. It's because I have respect for his position that I demand high quality and consistency. Just as I have high expectations of the Partners at work, or the CFO, or the VP of marketing. If you have the title it comes with expectations of performance. Mistakes can and will still happen, but this time it sounds a lot more like not looking before crossing the street rather than a piano falling from the sky and randomly hitting you. |
Quote:
Werner, I think right now is probably one of the worst times you could ever hope for stability in a build, and it's not even because a power(set) might be looked at. Even if they're locked in and not changed for a year, I bet your builds wouldn't be "safe." Why? Going Rogue.|
Originally Posted by Werner
I am way, way too tired of fixing or abandoning carefully-crafted characters that the devs nerf or even buff into something not at all like what I planned. Perhaps if someone could just tell me what powers and which IOs might be STABLE for a couple years, it'll be worth the investment. But obviously that can't happen.
|
For one thing, we know that GR will sport mobs that will be tougher than what we're used to. I mean, Castle has said "I'm not too concerned about the protection levels shields can generate; it'll be needed." Again, he knows that Shield can softcap, and he thinks it will needed. There could be any number of ways that he could get around it (mobs with higher tohit would be just one way), which could upset current build goals. Suppose that the new softcap is 50% - without changing a single power builds would suddenly need to be reworked.
Critter design aside, there is another big unknown - the Incarnate system. We know nothing about it other than the name and that it will make our characters "more powerful lvl50s" (paraphrased from Positron). Anything it provides could upset builds. Suppose for a moment that we could get a passive +recovery boost via the Incarnate system. That could change people's builds. Just about any buff could. (Okay, we probably wouldn't have to worry about debt protection, but let's not be too silly.
) (To make things a bit more frustrating, we'll only be introduced to the first of 10 Incarnate levels in GR. So even after it's launched, we won't know the full breadth of the system.)
It's pretty much why I haven't done any build planning at all since I heard that GR would have a way to make our lvl50s more powerful. There is just too much uncertainty to make any plans that would require a large investment.
I really want to see what I can do with the Incarnate levels on my Fire/Fire Scrapper. 
Playstation 3 - XBox 360 - Wii - PSP
Remember kids, crack is whack!
Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it
like the apology we got when a red name said all of us in the market forum were idiots and the drop rate wasn't nerf'd o'h wait we're STILL waiting for that one, or ya know maybe even admiting that we were right, but I'm not holding my breath.
The more people I meet, the more I'm beginning to root for the zombies.
Quote:
Or maybe they could actually make something ...oh I don't know...maybe ..umm..work as intended?
|
Originally Posted by Werner
Yeah, I don't think I'll continue forward with my IOing plans for my Fire/Shield, and I'll probably dump what I've bought so far back into the base. My intent was to make a damage powerhouse. The AoE portion of that now sounds likely to take a big hit, probably about the time I finish earning the billions of influence and dumping it all into the character, since that takes me months. No thanks. No longer worth the time investment.
I'm not saying that it shouldn't be examined. Perhaps it should. I'm just not going to bother IOing something that's definitely going to be examined. I am way, way too tired of fixing or abandoning carefully-crafted characters that the devs nerf or even buff into something not at all like what I planned. Perhaps if someone could just tell me what powers and which IOs might be STABLE for a couple years, it'll be worth the investment. But obviously that can't happen. At this point, I'm kind of thinking I'll never bother with a top end build again. I'll just keep leveling up alts until I tire of that, and then give up on the game completely. Again, not saying not to nerf Shield Charge. Not working as intended, blah blah blah, fine, whatever. But I'm just not sure if I can take it any more. |
The more people I meet, the more I'm beginning to root for the zombies.
Quote:
Grin. I just woke up, and I am enjoying your creative spelling and self confidence. . the emotional pickup is better than coffee.|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Er, no, you must be mistaken. The Dev's have a solid policy to never buff anything.
I reads it on the internetz, so it must be true! LOL. (Although a boost to fire armor would be teh sweet!) Also, folks need to chill. This thread is far from the first time SD has been looked at, I posted months ago that it was inevitable it was getting nerfed. Hmmm, how gud is mah search-fu..... Seems is gud! http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...98#post2641998 If you have to hate on anybody, bring it, I am tuff. |
I don't want Shields nerfed, just tweaked a bit so it plays well with SOs...so, I guess I want it buffed????
But, Voltanna just made 33, and I, gasp, have started to put some IO sets into her, so we shall see. Scrapper forums will probably be hearing from me in the coming days.
A buff to FA sounds real good to me. ChiliCheeseDog Annie, my level 50 Fire/Fire scrap gives a thumbs up to that idea
This thread has grown. Which is good, as people are brainstorming, and throwing out ideas, and being constructive.
Hugs to everyone here, and have a good Friday.
Lisa.
So don't wait for heroes, do it yourself
You've got the power
winners are losers
who got up and gave it just one more try
***Dennis DeYoung
Quote:
Billions of influence on a toon just to make it work correctly, and the toon in question being the very one that the players of all stripes, and most importantly all bank accounts, voted for is wrong.....|
Originally Posted by Werner
Yeah, I don't think I'll continue forward with my IOing plans for my Fire/Shield, and I'll probably dump what I've bought so far back into the base. My intent was to make a damage powerhouse. The AoE portion of that now sounds likely to take a big hit, probably about the time I finish earning the billions of influence and dumping it all into the character, since that takes me months. No thanks. No longer worth the time investment.
I'm not saying that it shouldn't be examined. Perhaps it should. I'm just not going to bother IOing something that's definitely going to be examined. I am way, way too tired of fixing or abandoning carefully-crafted characters that the devs nerf or even buff into something not at all like what I planned. Perhaps if someone could just tell me what powers and which IOs might be STABLE for a couple years, it'll be worth the investment. But obviously that can't happen. At this point, I'm kind of thinking I'll never bother with a top end build again. I'll just keep leveling up alts until I tire of that, and then give up on the game completely. Again, not saying not to nerf Shield Charge. Not working as intended, blah blah blah, fine, whatever. But I'm just not sure if I can take it any more. |
Grin. I will get off my soapbox and scurry away now.
I guess when building a toon, you build with an eye to its strengths, instead of adding something it does not have, such as defense bonuses on resistance based toon who has only combat jump as a defensive power.
The Devs crafted the powersets to work together, and we look for powers to skip so we can add Weave to the above pure resistance based secondary.
I only added Defense bonuses and Weave to my Fire/Fire build, ChiliCheeseDog Annie, after she hit 50, same with my Dark/Regen....I think....Battlesneeze Jessie might have gotten Weave while she was in her 40s can't remember now.
I have been playing my Fire/Fire lately and I am wondering if the little bit of Defense granted by Weave, and my Defense bonuses, is really worth not taking another power from my Primary/Secondary. .. especially with the ability to email purples to oueselves so we will have them during missions.
And I just answered my question, didn't I. Weave and my bonuses will make my purple inspirations go further. Or I could use more reds, or yellows, blues are good too.
ok, I am leaving this post before I get myself more confused. Another power would be nice, but the small amount of Defense I already have, will bloom with the right number of purples, which are easy to carry due to being able to email them to ourselves.....hmmmm...
Lisa-Running away fast
So don't wait for heroes, do it yourself
You've got the power
winners are losers
who got up and gave it just one more try
***Dennis DeYoung
Quote:
Man who needs a group huge more? Castle or this guy?
|
Originally Posted by pyrite
Or maybe they could actually make something ...oh I don't know...maybe ..umm..work as intended?
|
Quote:
I couldn't give a damn about an apology.|
Originally Posted by pyrite
like the apology we got when a red name said all of us in the market forum were idiots and the drop rate wasn't nerf'd o'h wait we're STILL waiting for that one, or ya know maybe even admiting that we were right, but I'm not holding my breath.
|
As long as they fixed the bug, which they did, that's all that matters.
Your view is soundly in the minority if you asked those in the market forum.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
This thread is awesome.
Quote:
It takes real ballz to come into this thread and answer these questions Castle. It speaks of your character. |
Originally Posted by Castle
The "above poster" would be the one who found the error thanks to reports from "the clients", rather than the one who created the error. Or, are you saying it is accounting policy to fire the auditors for finding mistakes?
|
This is a game that I enjoy very much. Thank you for putting the effort into making it what it is. Like I said, I truly LOVE the game.
But since your responded to me, allow me to respond back to you.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Castle
Good catch. I was looking at the original power, as I designed it, rather than the reworked version that was done later.
|
Those kinda mistakes arent tolerated in business. Why do you allow yourself and your developer team to let these mistakes "get by" in the first place?
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf
My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dispari
Yeah, I like Blasters too.
 |
Quote:
I agreed with that post totally. However, I also feel that (as others have said) the mere existence of Going Rogue will probably trash a lot of builds too.|
Originally Posted by Werner
But I'm just not sure if I can take it any more.
|
I wouldn't plan a top-end build until say ... this time next year. Well, unless you can afford to top-end build a character multiple times in one year.
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
Quote:
Wisest person in the thread.|
Originally Posted by MunkiLord
I don't think any of this is a big deal. At all. However I do believe that people making a big deal of this(regardless of what side of the discussion that person falls) are being foolish.
|
Really, the drama flying around in these sort of threads cracks me up everytime.
That being said, it is a bit curious that this mistake is only discovered now. Shield charge has been rediculously powerfull (imo, but seriously how can you disagree?) since forever and people have been commenting on it at least as long. You'd think that would've raised some flags sooner.
Anyway, since SC has been so overpowered. I personally don't mind, expected it really, it being brought in line at some point or another.
/em sad that his lightining/shield brute will be little less awesome.
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
There's always respecs. Granted, unless you're a 4 year vet it's going to come with a price (and a hefty one at that), but spending a few hundred millions to move billions worth of IOs from one character to another isn't so costly in the long run.
Quote:
You don't program do you?|
Originally Posted by JamMasterJMS
Even if you DID originally catch the error, using the origal power numbers and not the reworked numbers what did you accomplish? You made a fix on something that again is faulty because you didnt check to make sure your doin it right the first time?
Those kinda mistakes arent tolerated in business. Why do you allow yourself and your developer team to let these mistakes "get by" in the first place? |
See how easy it was for you to miss spell that word bolded above? When you are looking at a sheet of code or at a spreadsheet, its easy to go 'bug-eyed' and miss stuff.
Good programmers will make mistakes. If they took the time to test everything themselves (instead of having open beta's/bug reporting done by users), we'd still be back in i3.
Quote:
GLORY DAYS OF BURN!!!|
Originally Posted by EmpireForgotten
Good programmers will make mistakes. If they took the time to test everything themselves (instead of having open beta's/bug reporting done by users), we'd still be back in i3. |
But, a few of the old would still be here... and I like the new people in charge of the game. Hopefully, they will adjust Fire Armor....
YMMV---IMOIce Ember
Quote:
Yeah damit! Why aren't you perfect!?|
Originally Posted by JamMasterJMS
Those kinda mistakes arent tolerated in business. Why do you allow yourself and your developer team to let these mistakes "get by" in the first place? |
Edit: wait wait wait..."Those kinda mistakes arent tolerated in business."
...Bull&*!@.
Every piece of software out there has bugs, errors, miscalculations. That's what patches are for. This game is bug free by Microsoft standards! They're the biggest business around!
To jump on the guy for this, claiming he's offended some divine commercial law by daring to let a product pass by with flaws. Seriously?
Quote:
Streakbreaker?|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
This is a change that could have saved you, or killed you. From virtually level one to level 50. You just wouldn't know it was responsible.
|
Also, other people in this thread need to quit crying. If we hypothetically discovered an archaic law on the books that said murder wasn't illegal as long as it was committed between the hours of 2 and 4 AM, would you argue that we should allow murders between 2 and 4 AM to remain legal just because "that's how they've been for 235 years"?
No? I think not.
So why then do we have people crying it's unjust to nerf Shield Charge, a power that singlehandedly badly devalues every single other Scrapper secondary in high-end play, just because it's been this powerful for a year?
Quote:
I think a damage buff based on the number of mobs within Blazing Aura would be both entertaining and thematic.
|
Originally Posted by bAss_ackwards
The last round of buffs for Fiery Aura were more damage mitigation related. I am not opposed to seeing more mitigation for the set, but I'd rather Fiery Aura be able to shine in generating more damage, whether it be directly (a better Burn) or indirectly (such as buffing Fiery Embrace.) Or we could have an increase for both mitigation and offense.
|
Quote:
The above. Over and over again.|
Originally Posted by Werner
Yeah, I don't think I'll continue forward with my IOing plans for my Fire/Shield, and I'll probably dump what I've bought so far back into the base. My intent was to make a damage powerhouse. The AoE portion of that now sounds likely to take a big hit, probably about the time I finish earning the billions of influence and dumping it all into the character, since that takes me months. No thanks. No longer worth the time investment.
I'm not saying that it shouldn't be examined. Perhaps it should. I'm just not going to bother IOing something that's definitely going to be examined. I am way, way too tired of fixing or abandoning carefully-crafted characters that the devs nerf or even buff into something not at all like what I planned. Perhaps if someone could just tell me what powers and which IOs might be STABLE for a couple years, it'll be worth the investment. But obviously that can't happen. At this point, I'm kind of thinking I'll never bother with a top end build again. I'll just keep leveling up alts until I tire of that, and then give up on the game completely. Again, not saying not to nerf Shield Charge. Not working as intended, blah blah blah, fine, whatever. But I'm just not sure if I can take it any more. |
I can't count the number of people I know that put serious effort into making something superior and then left after it was dumbed down to sub mediocrity.
The devs seem to have an ongoing quest to nerf skill in playing the game and its very detrimental to the health of the game. Most people will only chase after the wallet on the string for so long then they find something else to do that is actually fun
Quote:
You can disagree as the "ridiculously powerful" comes from massive, expensive, IO slotting, soft capped defenses, saturated AAO (and saturated Soul Drain if we're adding Dark Melee in) . Since most CoH players will not see that level of performance, I think it's unwise to use it as a balance point. If Shield Charge is bugged and is not working as intended, that's a different issue. But Shield Defense with SOs is certainly not ridiculously powerful compared to the other defense sets as a whole. Or at least not more ridiculously powerful than other builds, even other SO builds. We all know what the hero side farmer build is and it's not even in a primary damage dealing AT...
|
Originally Posted by TrueMetal
Wisest person in the thread.
That being said, it is a bit curious that this mistake is only discovered now. Shield charge has been rediculously powerfull (imo, but seriously how can you disagree?) since forever and people have been commenting on it at least as long. . |
@SBeaudway on Pinnacle, TaskForce Titans Supergroup.
It's kind of amazing to me how much stock people put in the influence of the forums. If /shield is going to get nerfed it's going to get nerfed, so matter what kind of messaging people try to propogate in the scrapper forum. The devs aren't so clueless that they have no idea what /shield is capable of.
I have an SS/shield brute and I'll cry as hard as anyone if shield charge gets toned down, but... it needs it. And that's on my brute, who has to balance defensive needs against damage. I can't imagine how nuts it must be on a scrapper who can just go all out for damage and recharge.
@Dysc, on virtue:
Virtue blues: Overnight (DP/MM), Kid Ridiculous (FC/rad), Panorama (Ill/time)
Virtue reds: Block Party (SS/SD), Goldcrush (earth/fire), Deadwire (claws/elec), Snowcrush (ice/kin)
Quote:
I'm sure if he was an editor, or a copywriter, or some other profession that specializes in writing he would have spell checked it.|
Originally Posted by EmpireForgotten
You don't program do you?
See how easy it was for you to miss spell that word bolded above? When you are looking at a sheet of code or at a spreadsheet, its easy to go 'bug-eyed' and miss stuff. Good programmers will make mistakes. If they took the time to test everything themselves (instead of having open beta's/bug reporting done by users), we'd still be back in i3. |
Are you sure you want to liken a Lead Programmer position to someone casually posting in a forum? I don't think that will have the desired effect you are hoping it will.
For the purposes of this discussion programming has a lot in common with accounting. I mean aside from requiring far less education and not having nearly as much accountability. But the point I'm eventually working toward is that they both involve going over your work with a fine tooth comb while starring at loads of information that wouldn't make any sense to an outside viewer. Is it hard? sure. Are you paid to do it? yes. Is it your career choice? yes. Will mistakes happen? you bet. Should you be held accountable for those mistakes? and here's where the drama started in this thread.
We know an audit of the power never happened, but hopefully an audit of the process will occur and things will be better in the future. That's all I personally care about. What's done is done and what happens from here on out is what matters. Continually striving to improve our performance is an admirable trait.
So many excellent ideas, so little time.
Playstation 3 - XBox 360 - Wii - PSP
Remember kids, crack is whack!
Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it