What can the other secondaries do better than /Shield?

problem is, this Dev team finds 3 ways to fix something, only one is needed then implements all 3.

So youre looking at damage being cut in half, plus damage being lowered with a pet change and the radius getting reduced.

The fix to Fa will probly be a slight increase in damage and a reduction in radius of burn. (for balance!!!)

Again, I can see that you don't program.

If you expect perfection, you WILL be disappointed.

The person above who equated Programming and accounting together painted a pretty good analogy. I do auditing for the company I work for and they are correct - you are supposed to go through the data with a fine tooth comb and be accurate. If you find mistakes as an auditor, you report it and get it fixed to make sure it doesn't happen again. If its a BIG mistake...well - there is Enron as an example of failed auditing.

There can either be 3 solutions that would make you happy JMS. They could:

A). Do what they do now (Which is try to get their code mistake free as possible, test it as best they can, and fix what gets broken or missed later)
B). Slow down their production schedule to get more testing done internally...I would guess a Similar QA process that a console game might have - which might take years to complete 1 issue
or
C) Raise the price of the game to higher an assload of additional QA to keep production schedule the same and your required level of quality.

Option C isn't going to happen, and option B would probably cause a sunset of the game.

The Cimeroran soldiers you fight employ this sort of "smarter" AI in that if you heard them into a large group, they become harder to hit because of their Phalanx Fighting. The neat thing about this is that unless characters have a good amount of Accuracy/ToHit, this theoretically changes how players would behave around said enemies.

The same goes with Nemesis and defeating Lieutenants. You don't want to off em' right away, because that would give Vengeance to the entire surrounding group of enemies. So players (again, theoretically) adjust their playstyle.

Many other enemy groups have their own shtick that help define how you play your characters around them and I suspect Going Rogue will have more tricks up its sleeve in this regard.

When I envision my own ideally-designed superhero MMO, I see critters that have modular AI scripts based on their intelligence, desired behavior and particular abilities, where the server assembles these elements when spawning the critter. Since I'm not a coder or MMO designer, I have no idea how insane this concept would be in practice. But that's the dream.

At the very least, I'd like to see the various critters in this game have one or two combat tricks to make them unique. For example, Nemesis snipers who hold their fire for a few seconds until their comrades get into position, then volley-fire in unison.

Rather than thread-jack, I think this topic merits further discussion in another thread.

if the Ai scatters Aoes have to be revamped...or you just force players to only take single target sets.

Readjusting Shield Charge effects skill, how? If anything, I'd say it'd increase it. Rather than just relying on SC to blow away minions with ease, now it would take more precise aiming to hit mobs with the 3ft epicenter. It also would make grouping up mobs play a bigger role so you can followup SC with other AoE abilities. I'm not seeing this effect "skill."

Further, if they were continuously trying to minize skill, they wouldn't have started adding more difficult content. They've introduced "Master of X T/SF" badges, rewarding players who play well. Another example would be the Baracuda SF - which can be fairly challenging. The Khan TF, while it's fairly mundane, really shows the difference between players who know how to maximize dps and those who don't. (I four manned it in ~53 minutes under master settings, yet have been on full teams taking longer than that.)

Another example would be the new zone events - the Halloween Banners (coordination between players) or Lord Winter (which had many interesting effects) are good examples as well.

Let's not forget we've already heard the devs say that there will be more challenging content in GR.


I fail to see any trend of the devs trying to "dumb things down."

Very difficult in an MMO. Those AI scripts will be running one per critter, for every critter spawned in every zone and in very instanced mission. Very expensive in terms of CPU cycles.

There are clever tricks you can play. You can make a "critter AI" that is actually a form of hive mind, that controls an entire spawn in a way that simulates individual minds to reduce computational overhead. You can make triggered or reactionary AI that doesn't run a complete script, but assembles a set of triggers that are externally fired (as opposed to a giant if-then tree). But its still potentially very expensive to do on the server side, in terms of the CPU cycles the AI ends up burning.

Ironically, there is an "AI valley" similar to the "uncanny valley" of animation perception. Really simple "stupid" AI that is very straight-forward tends to be very difficult to game, because it simply doesn't react predictably or at all to player actions. Really smart AI can also be difficult to game. But in-between AI tends to be smart enough to be manipulated and dumb enough to be deceived. That "deception valley" is something very important to avoid in designing AI in the general case.

So not only do I not program neither do you.
Now please explain what expertise you have on programming.

And explain as an auditor what would happen if mistakes were pointed out and then "fixed" incorrectly as well.

Originally Posted by Shadow Ravenwolf My favorite combo is Faceplant/DebtCap with the TeamWipe Ancillary

Originally Posted by Dispari Yeah, I like Blasters too.

*heh* So "devpet" is your preferred equivalent to fanboi i take it. A term used to automatically dismiss and deride anyone who doesn't agree with your constant negativity and contempt for the Devs.

i have to wonder why you continue subscribing to this game the way you constantly state your contempt for those running it. From what i've seen of your posts in this thread and similar threads regarding the Devs' approach to balancing the game i don't see how any characters could survive combat with a single even con minion at this point if the Devs were as incompetent and nerf hungry as you constantly assert.

i certainly can't believe the Dev team your posts seem to describe could add any functional new sets or powers to the game. They certainly wouldn't put in something like IO's unless they added character-wide penalties for slotting them.

If the Devs are so stupid, vindictive and incompetent, and everything's being nerfed into uselessness, why are you even bothering to post? They'll just nerf shields into uselessness anyway, just like they recently did to DP with i17's changes. After all, they're too incompetent and out of touch to do otherwise, right?

i hardly think the Devs can do no wrong, but i actually think they can (and do) get things right on occasion as well. My expectation is that sometime in the near future Shield Charge will be nerfed and FA buffed. i don't think either will be that extreme, but i will reserve judgment until i have more information. Probably because i'm some sort of devpet and fanboi who thinks the Devs can occasionally do something right.

Or AoE becomes something that requires a higher level of skill to leverage than now.

AoE is just plain broken in this game, and I'm presuming game designer observers have taken note to never, ever, ever let it happen again, either in potential sequels to this game, or any other game (but of course, that's a bad presumption).

The fact that there are such reference terms as "AoE sets" and "single target sets" is a symptom of the problem. All attack sets are single target sets with AoE attacks. However, the advantages of AoE are so high in many cases that a set with one more or less AoE than another can sometimes be classified as a totally different kind of set entirely. That's a design error. Just an extremely difficult to compensate for error, especially in a game where the players are addicted to AoE damage.

But that's why I'm on the fence on things like intelligent scatter. I believe the game would be better for it, but a lot of players are used to the way the game works now. Without a better reason than personal preference, I would be hesitant to make such a change to a long-established game.

I would have *zero* inhibition to make it mandatory in any new game.


(It wouldn't take much: the simplest solution that doesn't even require sophisticated AI would be to have every spawn have a designated radius, and have a random percentage of the critters in the spawn simply walk back and forth across the radius in random directions. This would prevent them from being clumped up all the time, but it would still allow players who wanted to leverage AoEs the opportunity to either wait for the best moment to use them, or attempt to force the critters into a smaller radius with things like knockback powers or other effects. That *alone* would do a lot to even out the single-target/AoE disparity that exists now.)

Not really. It just means that AoEs become situationally useful, rather than being top tier in nearly every situation (barring Cims or Nemesis). The fastest and safest way to take down a spawn in CoH currently is to cornerpull them and throw everything you have on them. Single-target damage lags behind in this regard, which is why Stalkers, even post-buff, tend to be black sheep in parties, since they miss out on the crazy AoE ball everyone else gets.

I'd say Going Rogue would be a perfect platform to institute AI changes (at least to the new higher-level mobs) with the easily backed-up excuse of providing more challenge.

Just out of curiosity, and this will likely sound very *head-desk* to you, but what in particular is broken about AoEs?

Is it the fact that AoEs are balanced so low (ie: hitting ~3 enemies) when they average hit more?

Is it the fact AI is dumb enough to stay all clumped up?

Is it the fact so many things in the game can be AoEed?

Is it the fact there is rarely any reason not to AoE?

The reason I ask is many games I've played have featured the same qualities. In DAoC (Dark Age of Camelot) one of the quickest ways to kill spawns was with caster PBAoEs. Herd up some mobs, blow them away with AoEs. (It became the power-leveling way of choice, in fact.)

WoW is also very AoE friendly, atm. Herd up a bunch of mobs, then blow them away at once. (Heck, right now some classes use aoe abilities in single target fights because they're so good.) Even back in vanilla, Frost Mages used to aoe farm for xp/gold.

What is so unique about CoH AoE mechanics that make is so ludicrously broken in comparison to other games?

Nope. I do program. I program a different system than what I audit. (IT is rather small where I work. Specifically, I program lotus notes databases, but I audit IBM iSeries areas)

As an auditor, if a mistake is pointed out and fixed incorrectly, it is documented and fixed again. With auditing, its all about risk (See previous lolEnron joke). If the risk is low, its noted to your share holders/board members, but most likely not much would be done.

It should also be noted that, as an auditor, if I DON'T find something, I am usually questioned whether I audited effectively or not. It is very very rare for an audit to go 100% smooth. You're supposed to find things and improve processes.

We can debate this issue till we get the dead horse tag thrown at the bottom. At the end of the day, if you expect perfection, you will be disappointed.

I'd say it's, more than anything, the fact that it forms the core of gameplay in the CoH experience that makes AoEs negatively impact the game. There's always been bomb groups in MMOs that gather up huge groups and AoE them down, but they tended to be limited in scope. DAoC's bomb groups were mainly in one particular spot in Albion and on that island in Midgard where Spiritmasters would powerlevel people, and WoW's AoE groups are restricted to heroic dungeons (a combination of people severely outgearing them and Blizzard's more timid design in regards to requiring crowd-control after Burning Crusade's heroic dungeons, where crowd-control was required for the majority of players).

Meanwhile, excluding the lowest levels in CoH, AoEing huge groups is the strategy, with little deviation ever taken from it. I tend to have more fun in the disorganized groups I occasionally land myself in where there isn't solid AOE or control and we have to scramble to try and stay alive. That is fun. Hitting the Spin key every so often isn't.

Congratulations! I have yet to slot a single purple enhancer, ever, and I do anything I darn well want to. Purples are far overpriced, and simply not that neccesary.



Yeah, I suspect there will be nothing good whatsoever in Going Rogue, and the Incarnates powers/abilities are going to be totally boring, too.

...wait. No, there's CRAP-TON of neat stuff looming on the horizon. I suspect alt-itis will keep us all going for years to come. SD is just another FOTM.


Stay strong, man! STAY STRRRRRONG!

Of course they are tolerated in business. Every day people screw up all the time. When it's a mistake that's fairly small, the person's supervisor will pull them aside and ask them to try and not repeat it. You do your best to make restitution to the customer if you can and you move on.

If you have never coded before, it's not as easy as just saying: "well just look for it". Small changes in one part of a program often times have far reaching impacts in areas you never anticipated... and that's on smaller scale programs. When dealing with the amount of data and changes that a typical MMO goes through, even the best change management won't catch every interaction.

That doesn't excuse the mistake, you should TRY to catch them all... however, that doesn't mean that as a game paying customer you should expect them to get everything.

What I look for is a company that does it's best to roll things out smoothly. Do they have a test server, check. Do they seem to take account for player input, check. Do they seem to have ideas that I enjoy, check. As I feel those things are met, I am certainly willing to excuse the same level of mistake as you get from a cashier, a sales man, a mechanic, or whatever.

I remember it being a bit more widespread than that in DAoC. It was used on Darkness Falls trash, hibs had an aoe spot somewhere, it was used in roaming PvP (aoe mez then drop 2-3 pbaoes and kill people before they could react), and it was also used to defend / attack keep doors.

WoW also has more AoE fodder than just Heroics - there is trash that is AoEd in ICC, as well as some boss fights (Deathwhisper, Gunship, Dreamwalker, etc).

Having said that...

Yeah, it is much more common in CoX compared to other games. I do seem to enjoy games that lean a bit more towards AoE for "trash" than those that require repeated use of CC. So a dungeon with aoe fodder and single bosses works well for me. Dungeons that are single target & crowd control everything and single bosses? It can get a bit tedious.

Let me preface what I'm about to say with this: I don't have a Shield character, but I have seen many played before (in person and in videos). Also, I'm not pro-SC nerf, nor am I vehemently against it. Right now, I'm being an observer on the sidelines.

However, in a generic sense, I will say that leaving things out of balance is a bad idea. For me, I'm quite fickle when it comes to making new characters. They need a concept that interests me, powersets that I want to play, and I expect a certain level of performance. Recently, I have kept running into problems where I think:

"I wouldn't mind making a def based character. I could make SR, but the benefits of Shield outweigh it. I wouldn't mind making a Shield Brute, but Scrapper Shield is so much better. I don't want to make a Shield Scrapper or Scrappers don't have the primary I'm interested in playing."

It prevents me from making new characters because I don't necessarily want to make a Shield character, but the way my logic works I don't want to spend a lot of time making a character that ends up being subpar. (I did make a Claw/Elec Brute, simply because the name was too big a draw for me to ignore, but I'm constantly unsatisfied with the builds I try to plan for her. I'm hoping GR will provide new avenues for me to go down. I don't like it when sets are so disproportionate - too high or too low.)


I'm not saying you have to enjoy the nerf or that you shouldn't say you don't like it. That's your right and I'm sure that it's a lot of fun. However, to say that nerfing should have a statute of limitation is a bit naive.


[edit: Oh, I should point out that other games can have far more significant changes than CoX does. If you'll allow me to use WoW as an example, Blizzard has no equivalent to the "cottage rule." They'll change not only the power of abilities, but also the core of how they work. To take the most extreme example, Hunters are being migrated from mana to focus. They're completely swapping the resource they're using!

Change in MMOs are inevitable - nothing is sacred, for better or for worse.]

This game has several problems that differentiate it from other MMOs. First, the targeting geometry for most attacks is far too large. Second, the target caps are still too high relative to the tier in which they are recieved. Third, the recharge on AoE attacks is too low across the board and there is no cross-skill cooldown for AoEs.

A skill like Rain of Fire is many other MMOs would have more than a 1 minute cooldown, and would often lock out other AoE skills for an extended period once it was clicked. This doesn't happen in CoH, and players can throw a chain of RoF-Fireball-Fire Breath in 6 seconds and pretty much decimate a spawn.

Could the developers implement positional resistance to somehow address this? Player's skills wouldn't have to be directly nerfed, but the enemies could certainly be tougher. Maybe bosses could be given an aura that grants hypothetical AoE resistance or defense, which would make nuking minions and Lt.s a bit tougher than it currently is as long as they have a leader.

Please don't take this the wrong way, but your logic for not making a toon made my brain hurt.

Compounding factors include not liking to replay the same set multiple times and having a hard time justifying new characters of the same AT if they don't do something much different than the others. (I enjoy my WP/Fire Tank, but I haven't been able to any new ones stick because I kept thinking that he already has what that combination offers covered.)

I'm well aware that I'm extremely fickle about what I play. So, nope, no offense taken. :P

I'm not an expert on DAOC or WoW, but the problem in CoH is a combination of all of the above and then some.

Without getting into too much detail, AoEs in CoH are balanced around hitting very small numbers of targets - usually between two and three, depending on an AoE formula which to this day I'm not sure what the person who made it was thinking. In particular, for spherical AoEs the formula presumes that a spherical AoE will hit (or rather is balanced around hitting) 1 target, plus 1 target for every six and a half feet of radius. In other words, a spherical AoE 25 feet in diameter is balanced around hitting three things.

On top of that, CoH is not designed around fixed cooldowns which would limit the utility of such powers. CoH is designed around recharge, which is basically cooldowns you can pay to reduce. This means the benefit of AoEs can be increased to very high degrees by simply slotting or otherwise acquiring the right amount of recharge. Do other games allow you to *trivially* take the best damage output powers and increase their availability by 60% or more?

On top of that, CoH provides lots of ways for players to manipulate spawn density (which improves the efficiency of AoEs) and includes AoE control on top of AoE damage. So players can arbitrarily increase AoEs to their efficiency limits, and they can take away one of the few compensating downsides to attacking a huge number of things simultaneously (drawing unlimited aggro).

On top of *that* CoH provides ways to buy yourself out of the only other balance limiter the game attempts to enforce by default: endurance consumption. You can buy enough endurance to power AoEs to a far higher degree than they were designed for, and in fact many players assume that the ability to do so is a birthright.

So: the four things that might temper AoEs - suboptimal target placement, increased counter-attack, higher recurring costs, and cooldown limits - are all either under the control of the players or can be manipulated to a very high extent. Conversely, players can easily exceed the metrics that AoEs were designed to be balanced under, and they can do so in a way that multiplies their net value.


And there's the last problem, sort of a synergy problem, the one that no game designer should ever deliberately put in their games. You have to balance your game around your average players, but you also have to be cogniscent of what your very best players can do, and ensure that while they may exceed average performance, they do not exceed the limits of your game or vastly exceed the balance limits of your reward systems. So its generally a good idea to make sure that the things you place into your game are things that average people can get value X out of, and with increasing skill you can get up to Y value out of it, and Y isn't several orders of magnitude higher than X. You want average performance and best performance to fall within a manageable range. Fireball can hit one target, or 16. It can have 17s cycle time, or 12s cycle time or even 4.2s cycle time in theory. Its range of damage output value (before counting damage buffs and slotting ranges) is about a factor of 65.

Balancing for a theoretical range of 65 is just setting yourself up for failure.

Shortened your post a bit. I know that the devs have a complicated job and that there is a lot going on. However, it sounds like this mistake should have been caught by the devs as it was implemented, and barring that, noticed much sooner. If this was just one thing, too, it wouldn't matter as much. However, there do seem to be communication problems about powers and bugs that do crop up from time to time that I feel is troubling (as I noted earlier).

It's not THAT big a deal, obviously, as the game runs well, I love it, and I think the devs do a great job. I just want to see it keep running well, hence the concern when devs don't know common issues with the game that a lot of posters and players do.

Cut back on being overly negative, please. I would be much more likely to have agreed with you back in the days when Burn was nerfed (and it went from being overpowered to just not worth it, to my mind). Now, not so much...

I recall a lot of people were being negative about Dual Pistols having any adjustments from its induction to "1-2 years down the road," yet we saw a good tweak with I17. They are capable of making good decisions.

For the AOE/ST thing, I dunno. Part of CoX's draw is that you can take on so many mobs at once and hit them, too. Moving away from that could cause issues or make things not as fun.

And while everyone loves AOE, there are times when it's not so great. I much prefer my Arch/Dev Blaster for hard targets like EBs, etc., than my AR/EM Blaster. He dishes out much better ST damage. Also, I do love my Fire/Fire Tank, but I do miss his ST attacks a lot when he SK's below 35.