What can the other secondaries do better than /Shield?
/Fire just seems to get not a whole lot out of sacrificing damage mitigation and having a Immobilization and Knockback hole.
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Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it
I agree that Fire could use a buff. But it DOES have one big thing over Shield Defense.
You're ON FIRE. How cool is that?
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You hit the nail on the head as to why I created that toon in the first place, I wanted to be lazy. That scrapper has no redraw, no click heal or mez protection, no need for clicks to help with endurance, no need to do anything but attack and change targets. After playing a DM/SR and DM/Regen for years I wanted another set good at ST damage but no redraw and Fire Melee was remotely new to scrappers. |
Originally Posted by Werner
There's an advantage to Willpower. It has "go make a sandwich the moment the idea strikes you" survivability. +4x8, RWZ challenge spawn, whatever. Go AFK. With a good build, it'll still be standing when you get back. Everything I have has to WORK for that kind of survivability, and so does Shield Defense. I suppose that's more along the line of what I said earlier, though. Some sets are friendlier for less experienced players. It's not like you go AFK during a fight normally. It's just a way of saying that your survival will not be compromised by less experienced play.
Hmmm, maybe what I'm saying is that Willpower is the best alternative to Shield Defense for anyone who would be posing the question in the first place. For damage, pick Shield Defense. For easy survivability and leveling, pick Willpower? |
I have to agree that Katana toons depending on DA for defense are more active and can be more fun if you are wanting to put in the work to survive. /DA is great fun, as is Regen. Nothing is quite like coming back from the brink of death and coming out on top, and in the green.
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It definitely looks awesome. |
Originally Posted by Werner
I agree that Fire could use a buff. But it DOES have one big thing over Shield Defense.
You're ON FIRE. How cool is that? |
Maybe in a future pass it will get a buff, but who knows when that will be? A year from now? Two?
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Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it
I'm pretty sure that WP, Regen and Dark can all completely outshine shields if you're up against pure psionic enemies. Since most of shield is positional, and quite a few psionic attacks have no positional aspect and no crossover to an existing position (if there was a lethal attack with no position who'd care, you get some from your melee defense bonuses anyway).
and, all three have heals, which shield doesn't. So shield will get hit more, and can't recover from the hits either.
Or am I off-base on this?
Also, every set except for Sr and Shields can recover from death faster since when you go down you lose your status protection until it recharges but the rest can toggle up and go. At low level, your click-based status protection isn't even permanent, whereas all the other sets are. I loathe and despise click-based mez protection. I'd love to hire the russian mafia to go to paragon studios and find whoever came up with the idea and kick them in the jimmies until they can't talk.
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Click based mez used to have advantages when you were overwhelmed as it would still work whereas things like integration would shut off and make the possibility of being perma mezzed by the mobs much more of a reality. Of course it is very rare for 10pts of mez protection to be broken in the pve game.|
Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
I'm pretty sure that WP, Regen and Dark can all completely outshine shields if you're up against pure psionic enemies. Since most of shield is positional, and quite a few psionic attacks have no positional aspect and no crossover to an existing position (if there was a lethal attack with no position who'd care, you get some from your melee defense bonuses anyway).
and, all three have heals, which shield doesn't. So shield will get hit more, and can't recover from the hits either. Or am I off-base on this? Also, every set except for Sr and Shields can recover from death faster since when you go down you lose your status protection until it recharges but the rest can toggle up and go. At low level, your click-based status protection isn't even permanent, whereas all the other sets are. I loathe and despise click-based mez protection. I'd love to hire the russian mafia to go to paragon studios and find whoever came up with the idea and kick them in the jimmies until they can't talk. |
The clicks don't seem to have much value anymore imo.
As for the psi def hole it is much less of an issue than no psy resistance is when comparing def vs res sets. Things like willdom, tkblast, and subdue are all typed ranged as well. The ones that lack positional def are the control powers like mass hypnosis, mesmerize and dominate. Of course you can certainly get dominate+mesmerized to death in some situations, but not nearly as easily as getting hit by every psy attack and having no res to it can lead to.
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I would love it to be sooner but given what /FA was like in the first 6 issues, I think the devs would be cautious about buffing it. |
Originally Posted by bAss_ackwards
It definitely looks awesome.
Maybe in a future pass it will get a buff, but who knows when that will be? A year from now? Two? |
I personally think that's nonsense because of ED, the GDN and Burns numbers have been toned down since, but whatcha gonna do.
Honestly, I'd be happy with the fear component in Burn being taken out. Any math gurus know how that'd make Burn compare to Shield Charge? I'm thinking it wouldn't be that bad, given Burn can only hit 5 targets and has a much smaller radius.
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Hrm. Y'know what? That would be an excellent change.
Though the Damage would have to be reduced or the Recharge made longer. Or both.
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SC:
200.2 base damage
16 targets
90 sec rech, 1.716 Cast
=200.2/91.716
=2.1828*16
=34.925
Burn with fear removed:
166.83 base damage
5 targets
25 rech, 2.244 Cast
=166.83/27.244
=6.1235*5
=30.617
So even if burn had the fear removed from it SC would still be better than it. This of course says nothing of the huge radius and the value that brings, or the knockdown, or that it is all upfront damage vs dot.
It also doesn't include any benefits AAO brings relative to FE, of which AAO is significantly more valuable to the betterment of SC than FE is to the overall betterment of Burn.
*The original version of SC that brutes use is much better balanced against brute burn (same as scrapper version) if you pretend burn had no fear.
I suppose I should have gone in-game to check the numbers, but how did you get 200.2 base damage for Shield Charge? What I saw in Mids was 141.2 damage vs. the 166.8 damage of Burn. I believe you are right and certainly wouldn't mind it. A non-scattering Burn would make me finally put that power in my build again. I just can't afford to use so many power choices to get a cone Immobilization from the Darkness Mastery Pool.
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Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it
Hmmm, yeah.
Given Burn is all DoT and has a significantly smaller radius compared to SC, I'd even say up the target cap to 10 so it's like normal PBAoEs.
Dear Castle,
Burn is poo, we'd like it not to be. Please remove the mag 50(!) fear and up the target cap to 10.
Keeses,
Silas
Edit: bAss_ackwards, as someone who took Mu Mastery for the AoE immobilize to leverage Burn ages ago, it's still not worth it. I was better off just spamming Footstomp/Ball Lightning.
I've since dropped Burn and have Soul Tentacles purely as a set mule. If Burn had the fear removed I'd probably pick it back up since it'd be another decentish AoE, rather than a decentish AoE that requires fiddling to leverage.
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141 was the pre-buff SC damage - can you believe they *buffed* it ? I still can't.
Indeed, it does 200 base for scrappers now.
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Caltrops works quite well at keeping enemies in a burn patch for a decent length of time, IME.
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Originally Posted by bAss_ackwards
I suppose I should have gone in-game to check the numbers, but how did you get 200.2 base damage for Shield Charge? What I saw in Mids was 141.2 damage vs. the 166.8 damage of Burn. I believe you are right and certainly wouldn't mind it. A non-scattering Burn would make me finally put that power in my build again. I just can't afford to use so many power choices to get a cone Immobilization from the Darkness Mastery Pool.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Hrm, so I guess indeed Burn would be perfectly fine without any reductions.
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
SC:
200.2 base damage 16 targets 90 sec rech, 1.716 Cast =200.2/91.716 =2.1828*16 =34.925 Burn with fear removed: 166.83 base damage 5 targets 25 rech, 2.244 Cast =166.83/27.244 =6.1235*5 =30.617 So even if burn had the fear removed from it SC would still be better than it. This of course says nothing of the huge radius and the value that brings, or the knockdown, or that it is all upfront damage vs dot. It also doesn't include any benefits AAO brings relative to FE, of which AAO is significantly more valuable to the betterment of SC than FE is to the overall betterment of Burn. *The original version of SC that brutes use is much better balanced against brute burn (same as scrapper version) if you pretend burn had no fear. |
Would you be able to adjust that for SC + AAO vs. FE + Burn + Blazing Aura?
I think since both Burn and Blazing Aura are part of the set, they should be combined as opposed to being compared singly vs. SC.
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Sure but it will be making some fairly sizable assumptions about the scenario so I'll try to do up a couple different cases to paint a more complete picture. With the market being down right now I should throw up some numbers pretty soon.
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Originally Posted by Deus_Otiosus
Would you be able to adjust that for SC + AAO vs. FE + Burn + Blazing Aura?
I think since both Burn and Blazing Aura are part of the set, they should be combined as opposed to being compared singly vs. SC. |
OK burn first:
95% dam and rech = 106.7
95% dam+FE(125%)+ 95% rech+hasten = 227.3 (w/ avg uptime of FE ~153.3)
95%+FE+BU and 95%+hasten+70% global = 359.5 (w/ avg uptime of FE+BU ~213.3)
*Recall this requires using these powers everytime they are up, which means BU is going to be applicable about every third use and FE every sixth use, so you'd use the numbers in the (brackets) for a more realistic performance benchmark.
BU also doesn't quite last the entire duration of burn, but in generally the numbers for burn are all overstated by a small margin.
Blazing Aura - Same damage and recharge progressions with 10 targets hit
135
220.8 (w/ avg uptime of FE = 157.55)
290 (w/ avg uptime of FE+BU = 186.07)
So Burn+Blazing Aura avgeraged over time
106.7+135 = 241.7
153.3+157.55= 310.85
213.3+186.07= 369.37
Shield Charge (same recharge progression)
95% dam and rech = 130.9
95% dam+full AAO+hasten = 247.8
95% dam+AAO+bu+hasten+70% global = 419.75
Observations and notes
- Assumes saturated Blazing Aura 100% of the time, which is highly unlikely. A realistic adjustment might be cutting the numbers for blazing aura upwards of 50% in actual use.
- As expected SC will benefit more from +rech because much of the weight is being carried by blazing aura for fire.
-These numbers are not 100% accurate, but they are fairly decent
I dunno if that tells you what you want to know, but to me it is a pretty clear indication that removing fear from burn would in no way make the set overperform relative to shields current capabilities. In fact I'd go so far as to say a target cap increase on burn would still be warranted simply because SC provides so much mitigation, is frontloaded damage, and has a huge fricken area of effect.
Another point in favor of a Burn buff is animation time/recharges. Burn animates a lot slower and recharges a lot faster than SC, in the above scenario you'd spend roughly 3-4 times as long using Burn as you would using SC - meaning the Shielder has more time to use other attacks and do more damage.
There's also a much bigger potential for wasted damage with Burn, as its full damage requires targets to stay in the patch for ten seconds. This can just as well translate into reduced mobility for the player - staying in patch so mobs stay there too, rather than repositioning for cones or getting everything in melee range.
(To be fair, SC also wastes damage sometimes due to sheer overkill, but while putting even rough numbers on it would be complicated I'm pretty sure even a fearless Burn would still waste more damage.)
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Also the fact that Shield Charge is in a set that can reach much higher levels of damage mitigation than FA, with greater ease too.
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Originally Posted by Frosticus
I dunno if that tells you what you want to know, but to me it is a pretty clear indication that removing fear from burn would in no way make the set overperform relative to shields current capabilities. In fact I'd go so far as to say a target cap increase on burn would still be warranted simply because SC provides so much mitigation, is frontloaded damage, and has a huge fricken area of effect.
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No foolin' with just the 3 rech SO's 15% of the FA's time would be spent just casting Burn. Compared to only 3.5% for SC.|
Originally Posted by Nihilii
Another point in favor of a Burn buff is animation time/recharges. Burn animates a lot slower and recharges a lot faster than SC, in the above scenario you'd spend roughly 3-4 times as long using Burn as you would using SC - meaning the Shielder has more time to use other attacks and do more damage.
There's also a much bigger potential for wasted damage with Burn, as its full damage requires targets to stay in the patch for ten seconds. This can just as well translate into reduced mobility for the player - staying in patch so mobs stay there too, rather than repositioning for cones or getting everything in melee range. (To be fair, SC also wastes damage sometimes due to sheer overkill, but while putting even rough numbers on it would be complicated I'm pretty sure even a fearless Burn would still waste more damage.) |
With hasten and 70% global ontop of the slotting a whopping 23% of the FA's time spent on burn. And only 6% for the Shielder.
What that means is literally 15% of your time required to stand in one spot if you want the enemies to stay in it (assuming the fear was removed ). Whereas the shield has almost no restrictions because SC is so large and it goes to the enemy rather than requiring the enemy to come to it.
Buff FA plz
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I am not arguing against a buff to fiery aura.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
No foolin' with just the 3 rech SO's 15% of the FA's time would be spent just casting Burn. Compared to only 3.5% for SC.
With hasten and 70% global ontop of the slotting a whopping 23% of the FA's time spent on burn. And only 6% for the Shielder. What that means is literally 15% of your time required to stand in one spot if you want the enemies to stay in it (assuming the fear was removed ). Whereas the shield has almost no restrictions because SC is so large and it goes to the enemy rather than requiring the enemy to come to it. Buff FA plz |
However, I do not find it very compelling that some people are attempting to turn a short recharge timer into a negative. When they changed the recharge from 10s to 25s, I do not believe anyone was saying, "Thank God I no longer have to spend so much time animating Burn!"
Or would you complain that you have to spend so much more time animating SC if it had a 25s base recharge?
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Yeah, can you imagine how horrible Shield Defense would be if they removed the recharge completely? You'd have to spend your whole time spamming Shield Charge!|
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
I am not arguing against a buff to fiery aura.
However, I do not find it very compelling that some people are attempting to turn a short recharge timer into a negative. When they changed the recharge from 10s to 25s, I do not believe anyone was saying, "Thank God I no longer have to spend so much time animating Burn!" Or would you complain that you have to spend so much more time animating SC if it had a 25s base recharge? |
In this case, while I didn't read carefully, I believe the point being made was "this power does damage X over total cycle time Y, but requires you to spend Z% of your time to do so". In that case, yes, the higher percentage of time you spend on the power, the worse that power is. Reducing Shield Charge's recharge WOULD make the Z figure worse, but also make the X/Y figure so much better as to dwarf the change to Z. But for any fixed damage over time X/Y, it is better to spend as little time as possible on the attack (up to a point - you don't want a 10 billion damage attack that recharges once per century). Faster recharge is, in that sense, a problem (as your damage will be reduced to match the reduced recharge).
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What if the radius was increased, Max targets increased, fear removed, is that enough to get Burn in line with SC? Maybe a decrease in either animation time to Burn, or decrease recharge of FE to BU level?
I'd dust off some FA rooms for that.
Frankly, Shields is so strong that if they completely removed Shield Charge and left nothing in its place -- so that the set had only 8 powers -- people woould still be happy with the buff AAO gives.
They'd scream bloody murder, of course; but the point is that AOO alone makes shields already awesome. Having both AAO and Shield Charge and IO-boostable defense and more hit points than most other sets is...well, it's just killer. So much so that you have to wonder who thought the set was roughly on par with most of the older sets.
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And I'd been after the concept for a long time, probably a couple years. I'd put together soft-capped Katana/Dark build in Mids' many issues ago, and brought it up on the forum for discussion. It was somewhat more compromised than what I ended up with since there have been so many juicy sets added since then, but it was doable. It was something I wanted. I just didn't get around to it until more recently, and by then, soft-capping Katana/Dark was getting pretty practical, not just something an extremist would play.
So there's one way in which a number of sets are better than shields - they are more friendly to inexperienced people. Willpower, for instance. Set it, forget it, don't worry about endurance, and it just keeps you alive. And some Willpower builds can be somewhat more survivable than Shields in most situations. There's just that pesky concept of "enough survivability" getting in the way, because once you have enough survivability, it's generally better to focus on offense, and Willpower does not...
Can /Shield beat the record?
However, that's an extreme edge case designed to cater to Invunerability's advantages. For general survival against random spawns, Invulnerability will be better than Shields against some, worse against others. I don't think there's a clear advantage to either.
Anyway, if we're trying to convince new players to play something other than Shields, it's maybe not an argument they'll respect, but have you SEEN how many combinations we're playing on the Scrapper forum? The hard core min/maxers, the powergamers, we're all over the place. We're not just playing Shield Defense.
Hmmm, maybe what I'm saying is that Willpower is the best alternative to Shield Defense for anyone who would be posing the question in the first place. For damage, pick Shield Defense. For easy survivability and leveling, pick Willpower?
I do think the other sets have a lot to offer as well, but I find myself unable to really articulate it at the moment. How about "fun"? Like I think Regeneration and Dark Armor are a lot of fun. Yeah, that won't convince anyone, I know.
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