What can the other secondaries do better than /Shield?
Just to get back to the original topic here with my two cents. My IO'd Fire/Shield can:
-Stand in an aggro capped spawn of level 52 custom bosses and /dance
-Kill said group with extreme ease.
-Solo Pylons with ease
-Solo AVs with ease
-two-shot entire x8 spawns on normal maps
-puts out about ST 260 dps on a build I threw together off-hand with absolutely no intention of making a high ST damage build.
-almost never runs out of endurance, and even if it was getting low I can pop conserve power or a blue
Most of the time I kill off an entire spawn of enemies before they can even react. For the few stragglers left behind after SC and FSC there's almost no danger they can present me with. Some might say that you can make a build that is theoretically more survivable than /shield, but in actual practice my money is on /shield totally outperforming any other set in actual gameplay terms. Like Frosticus said, this game is about killing enemies and /SD does that gloriously and while it may not be the absolute most survivable out there, it's still enough to bulldoze the vast majority of content in the game and make regular enemies completely trivial so what difference does it make?
Of course when it comes down to what you want to play, just play what you think is cool. My first character ever was a claws/da scrapper I made back in I4 when everyone was running with their unkillable /regen and /sr god scrappers and burn tanks.
Any fully matured scrapper will be powerful, especially when you IO them out. That said, I do think that /Shield is the "best" scrapper secondary when you determine what is the scrappers primary job, and what set is the best at facilitating that. A scrappers job is to kill things while surviving long enough to be the last thing standing.
Shield provides you with the be-all end-all powers of AaO and SC and it provides 95% damage mitigation when IO'd. What else is there to say when your alpha strike can wipe an entire spawn of the face of the planet and 95% of every attack they manage throw at you gets deflected? Even the few attacks that do get through are reduced by damage resistance and /SD gets a HP boost, making them all the more tough. That's before figuring in inspirations and team buffs. Speaking of which, /Shield scrappers boost the survivability of their teams as well with extra defense. Compound upon that all of the awesome slotting you can do with shield especially in terms of spots to put uniques and the pendulum swings even more in /SDs favor. This is all without even talking about what kind of extra tools your primary can bring to the table.
If someone were to say "there's no reason to play any scrapper than /shield" they would be correct, but only if what they meant was "there's no reason to play any scrapper other than /shield IF you want absolute numerical superiority."
Of course, as others have said, the set is definitely less superior when you're not using IOs. Basically, when it comes to a scrapper, and you're willing to IO it to the gills, any set combination is probably overkill for most content in this game.
tl;dr, play what sounds cool to you. 
Just had a thought... what if burn was more like irradiate? Rather than being a patch to keep the mobs in, what if it was a "set it and forget it" type attack like irradiate is? Or, conceptually, incinerate (but an AoE). With the fear removed, a recharge and radius comparable to SC, and activation time closer to irradiate (1.07), I think that would look quite appealing overall.
Aside from that, maybe the two armors (or just one) should also include some +hp as well to further the strength of the set, as well as RotP being usable when alive.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
I hate to be the bringer of bad news... but Willpower sucks!!! you're better off rolling a regen
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^Professional Katana/regen build thread
Elogost, you read my mind. I was JUST about to type the same exact suggestion you just made. Unfortunately I then realized it would be in violation of Castles cottage rule. Basically, the devs don't want to fundamentally change what a power does, or it's mechanics. For Burn to be in compliance with this rule, it would have to remain the same power, just having its values/effects tweaked to make it more useful.
Really, all they could do to it if they were gonna follow the rules would be to remove the fear and change the target limits/damage. Maybe they could give it knockdown or something but keep the fear. Something like that.
But what you're suggestion would fundamentally alter the power. I don't like the "cottage rule" either, but it's not gonna go away.
(Elegost >.> <.< <3)
Honestly, though. I'd forgotten about that rule. My mind went as far as, "You're still setting them on fire, right? They're still burning, so it's totally justifiable!" yeah... logic fail.
Although, what about powers like repulsion bomb? It used to be a target ally, correct? Then they made it target enemy, then later buffed the damage (and made the other necessary treaks)... So altering the target type (again, within certain boundaries) is justifiable, as well as the numerical components.
I'd almost consider a bonfire-ish type burn. Radius and range roughly the same? Lob a pile of burnination before you jump in the mob? That'd be like shield charge without the charge :P
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
I hate to be the bringer of bad news... but Willpower sucks!!! you're better off rolling a regen
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^Professional Katana/regen build thread
What you're talking about isn't so much a Bonfire kind of attack but more of an Ignite kind of attack from Assault Rifle. Pick a spot on the ground and light it up! 
Playstation 3 - XBox 360 - Wii - PSP
Remember kids, crack is whack!
Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it
well basically, yeah. Just a bonfire sized radius, rather than current burn or ignite (teeny tiny).
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
I hate to be the bringer of bad news... but Willpower sucks!!! you're better off rolling a regen
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^Professional Katana/regen build thread
Hrm, what is the target cap on Ignite?
Playstation 3 - XBox 360 - Wii - PSP
Remember kids, crack is whack!
Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it
Range of 40, radius of 4. Doesn't say anything about a target cap.
Although, without AE cheatz, I doubt you'll be able to hit more than 5 guys with it with such a small radius.
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
I hate to be the bringer of bad news... but Willpower sucks!!! you're better off rolling a regen
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^Professional Katana/regen build thread
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Was suggested some time ago by myself(yup I'm Lucky this is a friends account I play on when my two lapse from time to time,you wanna fight about it?)|
Originally Posted by Cyber_naut
Another thing I'd do to boost competing sets would be to allow da and fa to use their 'rez' powers while alive - obviously the rez power wouldn't activate, but the pbaoe stun/fire dmg would.
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http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=203665
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(you could get banned for it)
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Originally Posted by Bocus_King
(yup I'm Lucky this is a friends account I play on when my two lapse from time to time,you wanna fight about it?)
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Playstation 3 - XBox 360 - Wii - PSP
Remember kids, crack is whack!
Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it
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Originally Posted by bAss_ackwards
(you could get banned for it)
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what lol? Not likely me and my friend share our accounts, we share all 3 of em. You know what they teach in kinergarten, sharing. Sometimes one of us is broke why would they want to ban us for such a thing?
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Well, if it's against terms of service, it hardly matters that sharing is generally a good thing.|
Originally Posted by Bocus_King
what lol? Not likely me and my friend share our accounts, we share all 3 of em. You know what they teach in kinergarten, sharing. Sometimes one of us is broke why would they want to ban us for such a thing?
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But I'm reading the terms of service now, since I assumed it would be disallowed, and I'm not seeing it strictly laid out like that. Instead, I see this:
"You are responsible for maintaining the confidentiality of your password and you are responsible for any harm resulting from your disclosure or allowing the disclosure of your password or use by any person of your password to gain access to your Account and Account ID."
Sounds like it's fine for you to share your password, as long as you understand that they will hold you personally responsible for anything that is subsequently done with your account.
I could easily have missed something, though. I merely skimmed.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
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I think it's this part, Werner:|
Originally Posted by Werner
I could easily have missed something, though. I merely skimmed.
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4. ACCOUNT (a) Eligibility. By clicking the “I Accept” button, the Customer represents that he is an adult 18 years of age or older or, if under 18 years of age, that he has the consent of a parent or guardian and will provide their details where requested. Only one person may use an Account. The Customer is liable for all activities conducted through his Account, and parents or guardians are liable for all activities of their minor child conducted through the Account. |
[edit: That's not saying you will be banned for it, but they could - so advertising that you do it isn't the best idea.]
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The best way to state it is I have access to three accounts that way hey you can own and pay for 3 accounts their are people that do own three accounts and they have no prof one way or the other
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Originally Posted by Sarrate
I think it's this part, Werner:
Source [edit: That's not saying you will be banned for it, but they could - so advertising that you do it isn't the best idea.] |
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
How about that topic!
Buff burn!
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I know, right? It's so Underpowered :[
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Originally Posted by DR_EVIL_NA
How about that topic!
Buff burn! |
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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
I hate to be the bringer of bad news... but Willpower sucks!!! you're better off rolling a regen
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^Professional Katana/regen build thread
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It was over nerfed back in the i4-I5 days much like COF was
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Originally Posted by Elegost
I know, right? It's so Underpowered :[
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Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
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One thing to keep in mind about the cottage rule is that you can still *add* functionality to a power, as long as it still *also* does what it used to do. Look at the conserve power -> energize change in electric armor: the recharge drastically changed, it gained a heal and a regen buff, but it still provides a click self endurance discount buff, so the cottage rule is satisfied.|
Originally Posted by Neogumbercules
Elogost, you read my mind. I was JUST about to type the same exact suggestion you just made. Unfortunately I then realized it would be in violation of Castles cottage rule. Basically, the devs don't want to fundamentally change what a power does, or it's mechanics. For Burn to be in compliance with this rule, it would have to remain the same power, just having its values/effects tweaked to make it more useful.
Really, all they could do to it if they were gonna follow the rules would be to remove the fear and change the target limits/damage. Maybe they could give it knockdown or something but keep the fear. Something like that. But what you're suggestion would fundamentally alter the power. I don't like the "cottage rule" either, but it's not gonna go away. |
Applying this to burn, what the cottage rule says is basically that, whatever you do to the power, it must still summon a flaming patch of fire under your feet. But it can get stuff added on *top* of that. However, I highly doubt the devs would agree to remove the fear effect. Keeping that in mind, this is what I'd do to the power:
- Decrease patch damage from .06 pet scale damage per tick to .05 pet scale damage per tick.
- Decrease patch duration from 10s to 8s.
- Increase patch radius from 8ft to 10ft.
- Add a regular AoE attack to the power - basically, make it an AoE attack that also drops the burn patch. This attack does 89 damage (slightly more than most scrapper PBAoEs, probably DoT over 3ish seconds), 10ft radius. Recharge unchanged, end cost becomes 11.856.
Total effects? Overall damage goes from 167 to 200, with ~45% of the damage frontloaded even if the target escapes the patch. Radius increases from 8ft to 10ft, but the end cost does rise some (although still heavily undercosted compared to a regular AoE attack). This makes the power much more useful if you don't have some means to keep foes in the patch, without increasing the damage by too much for those who did have some sort of slow/immob.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
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While they added the fear effect back when they nerfed the power so technically it was not part of the original power
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Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
One thing to keep in mind about the cottage rule is that you can still *add* functionality to a power, as long as it still *also* does what it used to do. Look at the conserve power -> energize change in electric armor: the recharge drastically changed, it gained a heal and a regen buff, but it still provides a click self endurance discount buff, so the cottage rule is satisfied.
Applying this to burn, what the cottage rule says is basically that, whatever you do to the power, it must still summon a flaming patch of fire under your feet. But it can get stuff added on *top* of that. However, I highly doubt the devs would agree to remove the fear effect. Keeping that in mind, this is what I'd do to the power: - Decrease patch damage from .06 pet scale damage per tick to .05 pet scale damage per tick. - Decrease patch duration from 10s to 8s. - Increase patch radius from 8ft to 10ft. - Add a regular AoE attack to the power - basically, make it an AoE attack that also drops the burn patch. - This attack does 89 damage (slightly more than most scrapper PBAoEs, probably DoT over 3ish seconds), 10ft radius. Recharge unchanged, end cost becomes 11.856. Total effects? Overall damage goes from 167 to 200, with ~45% of the damage frontloaded even if the target escapes the patch. Radius increases from 8ft to 10ft, but the end cost does rise some (although still heavily undercosted compared to a regular AoE attack). This makes the power much more useful if you don't have some means to keep foes in the patch, without increasing the damage by too much for those who did have some sort of slow/immob. |
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
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Yeah, but that's not what the cottage rule says. It doesn't say "only if an effect was in the launch version of a power 6 years ago can you not remove it", it says that the effects *currently* in the power can't be removed. That likely includes the fear effect. As much as it's generally reviled, there's still almost certainly *someone* who's using the fear effect for mitigation. And that's the person the cottage rule is designed to cover.|
Originally Posted by Hejtmane
While they added the fear effect back when they nerfed the power so technically it was not part of the original power
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Like I said, between the cottage rule and the same balance concerns that caused them to add it in the first place, I doubt the devs would consent to removing the fear effect.
@MuonNeutrino
Student, Gamer, Altaholic, and future Astronomer.
This is what it means to be a tank!
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Unfortunately that makes sense. How about change it to the footstomp animation and use your second suggestion of adding frontloaded damage, increased radius, and also a chance of KD. Then comes the burn patch with fear element and increased target Max.
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Originally Posted by Muon_Neutrino
Yeah, but that's not what the cottage rule says. It doesn't say "only if an effect was in the launch version of a power 6 years ago can you not remove it", it says that the effects *currently* in the power can't be removed. That likely includes the fear effect. As much as it's generally reviled, there's still almost certainly *someone* who's using the fear effect for mitigation. And that's the person the cottage rule is designed to cover.
Like I said, between the cottage rule and the same balance concerns that caused them to add it in the first place, I doubt the devs would consent to removing the fear effect. |
Yeah, I don't think they "can" remove the fear effect now. In practice, without an immobilize to go with it, the damage seems small enough that the main reason I take and use it is as mitigation. Not saying I'll complain about a change, as the mitigation isn't an integral part of any of my builds. But I do agree that it makes it a violation of the cottage rule to remove it.
So while I'd prefer the damage be bumped and the fear removed, I think something like Muon Neutrino's suggestion to front load the damage is more likely in practice. So you don't remove the fear, and you can still use the power primarily for mitigation, but then you could also largely ignore the fear if you're just after damage. I don't see them adding knockdown, though, Dr. Evil. In a FIRE power? Fire's secondary effect is FIRE (more damage).
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Quote:
Burn has always been different than all the other powers in the set anyway it has the secondary of fear and immobilization protection. I see what you're saying, but come on lets go nuts |
Originally Posted by Werner
I don't see them adding knockdown, though, Dr. Evil. In a FIRE power? Fire's secondary effect is FIRE (more damage).
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I c wut u did there.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
I'd complain about SC if they shrank the radius to 8ft and set the target cap to 5 and cut the damage by a quarter and made the cast time significantly longer and made the damage a long duration dot that cause mobs to flee.
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*mutters something about things not everyone remembers but everyone knows*
Anyway. With the addition of the aggro cap I think it would be acceptable to bring Burn back to the glory that it once was. That's all I would want, don't add more cool stuff just give us Burn back.
Space reserved for a super awesome Signature, someday...
Like Nihili said this has primarily resulted in requests for improvements to Fire Armor so it can at least make a solid claim about its offensive nature. I've personally stated offhand that SC was more balanced with the old numbers. You can interpret that however you want. I'm just stating numbers.
If you look over what was being talked about was burn vs SC, burn+FE+blazing aura vs SC+AAO. There was absolutely no discussion of single target performance at all until you dragged it into the conversation.
That said, you did cite an example of where an aura has achieved nearly double the typical performance and I explained why that specific corner case is possible. SC+AAO is possible on every shield combination. It is an important difference.
Without being rude you are being asked nicely to tone it down as you are being very aggressive in your position. Prior to your arrival it was a very calm and collected discussion occurring that spanned quite a few areas, the very least of which was "pylon solo'ing".