What can the other secondaries do better than /Shield?
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The request is placed under the assumption that the power will be significantly reduced in strength. He's not asking for those things to be added to the power as we know it.
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Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Because as we know, the power definitely is suffering for those absences.
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Sure - but they're still not necessary. It'd be a nerf beyond anything even vaguely like what I could imagine that would make Shield Charge a bad power.
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Originally Posted by Dersk
The request is placed under the assumption that the power will be significantly reduced in strength. He's not asking for those things to be added to the power as we know it.
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Scrapper secondary powers do not, as a rule, crit.|
Originally Posted by Bocus_King
One request Castle,
If your gonna change SC like it obviously sounds like you are why not go the whole mile and not anything less let me explain. Make it follow AT rules, let the scrapper one crit, give the brute one the 800% damage cap that brutes have, and I'm not a fan of tankers so I have no idea if their SC envokes gauntlet or not but if it doesn't make it so. Thank you for reading. |
Altering the damage cap of the SC pseudo-pet is problematic, and prior precedent has the devs generally ignoring the damage cap issue for such powers. Furthermore, Burn is the same for all three archetypes with access to Fiery Aura, which means the Brute version (and the Tanker version) currently does too much base damage relative to its peers.
And if the Brute version's damage buff ceiling is increased to 850%, the Scrapper version would need to be increased to 500% as well. There is a lot of collateral changes that would be necessary to honor this particular "rule."
(Both the Brute and Tanker versions already taunt).
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Yes: Brutes, Scrappers, Tankers, and Blasters.|
Originally Posted by Talen Lee
Don't four archetypes get Burn?
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Only three have access to Fiery Aura as I mentioned, though: Blasters have access to Burn in Fire Manipulation.
Also, while Burn is basically the same for Scrappers, Tankers, and Brutes, its slightly different for Blasters.
(Blaster Burn has the Defiance damage buff and it also has slightly different levels of immobilize protection, although it casts the same pseudo-pet and thus has the same damage. So its not quite correct to say that Burn is the same for all *four* archetypes that have access to it).
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I am eager to see what, if anything, Castle does to buff up Fiery Aura.
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Generally speaking, if Shield out performs the other secondaries and it's going to be needed for tougher enemies, then shouldn't almost ALL secondaries be getting buffed to match Shields?
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Originally Posted by bAss_ackwards
I am eager to see what, if anything, Castle does to buff up Fiery Aura.
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I would hope not. I'd think they'd be adding harder content because it's so easy to demolish the existing content. If they buffed us so that we could demolish the new content just as easily, then the old content would be even more of a cakewalk. That's not really what I'm looking for out of this game.
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Originally Posted by Mr_Hellcat
Generally speaking, if Shield out performs the other secondaries and it's going to be needed for tougher enemies, then shouldn't almost ALL secondaries be getting buffed to match Shields?
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? I don't know that Shields is really that much better than other primaries, other than Shield Charge. Outside of that, it's just decent option with pros and cons like other sets. Hence the issue with Shield Charge getting numbers it wasn't intended (as has been discussed to death in this thread). |
Originally Posted by Mr_Hellcat
Generally speaking, if Shield out performs the other secondaries and it's going to be needed for tougher enemies, then shouldn't almost ALL secondaries be getting buffed to match Shields?
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And Fiery Aura just has some wonky things in it that don't work well/make it weaker than it should probably be (and I say this as someone that loves Fiery Aura)... I don't think the other defense sets in game currently really need much work. Invuln is solid after its tweaking, etc.
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If you don't mind a long answer, I suggest you read Positron's thoughts on the matter|
Originally Posted by Mr_Hellcat
Generally speaking, if Shield out performs the other secondaries and it's going to be needed for tougher enemies, then shouldn't almost ALL secondaries be getting buffed to match Shields?
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[edit: That's for all "don't nerf, buff" situations, not this one in particular.]
Thanks for the link, didn't know he had a blog. As an aside though, in his post "Risk vs. Reward" he says:
"Also, make sure you are rewarding your players for their time investment. If you have a mission that has a character doing FedEx quest after FedEx quest in the mission chain, eating up time they could be out killing stuff for XP, make sure that they are rewarded accordingly."
Wow.
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which explains why rewards for fed ex missions/easy hunts were removed in Numina TF and a few other arcs....
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Originally Posted by Ryuuk
Thanks for the link, didn't know he had a blog. As an aside though, in his post "Risk vs. Reward" he says:
"Also, make sure you are rewarding your players for their time investment. If you have a mission that has a character doing FedEx quest after FedEx quest in the mission chain, eating up time they could be out killing stuff for XP, make sure that they are rewarded accordingly." Wow. |
YMMV---IMO
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I just leveled an ss/fire brute to 50.
My largest concern defensively about Fiery Aura are the amount of holes it has to general gameplay content compared to all the other defensive powersets.
FA is a resist defense powerset that lacks: -Resist Protection, KB Protection, Immob Protection sans Burn+RoTP, End Drain Protection/Resist. The End Drain is a killer for villside /FA's leveling up outside AE. Mu Strikers, Carnies, Maltas. On top of that Consume has one of the longer recharges of endurance recovery powers, compared to all other defense powersets.
It'd be nice if Consume had a 60s End Drain protection or a 30s one with a much quicker recharge. Fiery Embrace could last longer or have less recharge to facilitate boosting /FA's average damage output to some degree. RotP is nice but a lot of the damage misses because of it's KB. It'd up the damage of the /FA set if RotP for /FA only had KnockUp.
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-resist protection is baked in in +resist powers. IIRC no set has specific - resist protection bonuses.|
Originally Posted by Kenshinhan
I just leveled an ss/fire brute to 50.
My largest concern defensively about Fiery Aura are the amount of holes it has to general gameplay content compared to all the other defensive powersets. FA is a resist defense powerset that lacks: -Resist Protection, KB Protection, Immob Protection sans Burn+RoTP, End Drain Protection/Resist. The End Drain is a killer for villside /FA's leveling up outside AE. Mu Strikers, Carnies, Maltas. On top of that Consume has one of the longer recharges of endurance recovery powers, compared to all other defense powersets. It'd be nice if Consume had a 60s End Drain protection or a 30s one with a much quicker recharge. Fiery Embrace could last longer or have less recharge to facilitate boosting /FA's average damage output to some degree. RotP is nice but a lot of the damage misses because of it's KB. It'd up the damage of the /FA set if RotP for /FA only had KnockUp. |
And don't touch my RotP knockback.
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Originally Posted by Santorican
I hate carnies, small hands, smell like cabbage.
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*runs off crying*
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I'm not understanding the second half of the numbers wit hteh " 3' scale " I remember when scraps had shield charge, it was doing the tanker value of the power, instead of the proper scrapper damage that it was properly fixed to. What does this mean to the power, or if anything or is this just a realization? I'm confused the way the numbers were placed here and how they were described. I'm still not understanding the " 3' = 3feet scale "
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Originally Posted by Castle
Good catch. I was looking at the original power, as I designed it, rather than the reworked version that was done later. For scrappers, it is scale 3.6 on the Minion_Pet table, which is a far cry from the scale 1.4 on the Minion_Pet table I originally designed for it. I vaguely remember someone (Synapse? Sunstorm? I'd have to dig into check in notes to see) asking me if they could update it to include AT Mods in the damage scales and saying yes.
Hmm...yeah, ok. I can very easily see what happened here. Shield Charge when released was set for a scale 1.7 damage to all targets within 20' of impact, with 0.7 scale bonus within 3' of impact. When the change to allow AT scaling was made, the bonus damage was rolled into the overall damage, for a scale of 2.4 to all targets in a 20' radius. At the same time, instead of have Brutes getting a mod of 0.75 applied, they were treated as the base. So, instead of: Brutes 3' scale 1.8, 20' scale 1.275 Tankers 3' scale 2.04, 20' 1.445 Scrappers 3' scale 2.7, 20' scale 1.9125 We get: Brute 20' scale 2.4 Tanker 20' scale 2.712 Scrapper 20' scale 3.6 That REALLY sucks. |
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1. No one was doing "tanker damage" with shield charge. Everyone was originally doing Pet damage, which is essentially the same as doing 1.0 modifier damage (the same modifier that blaster melee attacks use). Technically speaking, Scrappers were doing slightly less than their modifier would imply (which is 1.125) while everyone else was doing more than their modifiers would imply (Tankers: 0.8; Brutes 0.75).|
Originally Posted by Windenergy21
I'm not understanding the second half of the numbers wit hteh " 3' scale " I remember when scraps had shield charge, it was doing the tanker value of the power, instead of the proper scrapper damage that it was properly fixed to. What does this mean to the power, or if anything or is this just a realization? I'm confused the way the numbers were placed here and how they were described. I'm still not understanding the " 3' = 3feet scale "
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2. Castle is pointing out that the power was originally designed and intended to do its maximum damage within a radius of three feet of the target, and less damage throughout its radius of twenty feet. In other words:
Scrappers 3' scale 2.7, 20' scale 1.9125
Scrappers were intended to do Scale 2.7 damage within three feet of the center of the AoE, and Scale 1.9125 damage within twenty feet of the center of the AoE (the power's full radius).
Where do these numbers come from?
2.4 at the center, 1.7 everywhere else when scaled up 1.125 for scrappers is 2.4*1.125 = 2.7; 1.7*1.125 = 1.1925.
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Oh I got you, so is this an old thread, or does this mean shield charge is getting changed? Or just a casual observation but nothing more?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
1. No one was doing "tanker damage" with shield charge. Everyone was originally doing Pet damage, which is essentially the same as doing 1.0 modifier damage (the same modifier that blaster melee attacks use). Technically speaking, Scrappers were doing slightly less than their modifier would imply (which is 1.125) while everyone else was doing more than their modifiers would imply (Tankers: 0.8; Brutes 0.75).
2. Castle is pointing out that the power was originally designed and intended to do its maximum damage within a radius of three feet of the target, and less damage throughout its radius of twenty feet. In other words: Scrappers 3' scale 2.7, 20' scale 1.9125 Scrappers were intended to do Scale 2.7 damage within three feet of the center of the AoE, and Scale 1.9125 damage within twenty feet of the center of the AoE (the power's full radius). Where do these numbers come from? 2.4 at the center, 1.7 everywhere else when scaled up 1.125 for scrappers is 2.4*1.125 = 2.7; 1.7*1.125 = 1.1925. |
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I'm just answering your question: the numbers themselves were discussed before when the issue first came up; this is a summary of that.
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Originally Posted by Windenergy21
Oh I got you, so is this an old thread, or does this mean shield charge is getting changed? Or just a casual observation but nothing more?
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The thread was started 4/29, so it's not all that new. |
Originally Posted by Windenergy21
Oh I got you, so is this an old thread, or does this mean shield charge is getting changed? Or just a casual observation but nothing more?
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As far as Shield Charge, Castle was unaware that the power was scaled the way it is - that being quite overpowered. The issue is mainly that during the last revision, the power was scaled using the Brute scale damage as the base and thus all versions are overpowered. The fact that the higher-scale damage is applied to the whole 20' radius is secondarily incorrect and overpowered.
The power will be altered, but it has not been stated how exactly. As for the time frame for the alteration - none was given, but Castle did mention that he'd have to consult with others before implementing any alteration, and that it was not going to take precedence over more pressing concerns.
So, Shield Charge will eventually get nerfed, but we don't know exactly how or when it will occur.
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Well from the values i've seen i think, its not exactly a nerf. Granted I'd prefer much if it remained the way it is, but the change will basically give it more damage to those in direct melee, and less to those on the outskirts of you. I do think that the "3 feet" should be 8 or 10 feet around you for the higher damage portion though like most normal aoe attacks are. Still though i'd prefer its current form, the damage is more evenly distributed.
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Originally Posted by Gaidin
The thread was started 4/29, so it's not all that new.
As far as Shield Charge, Castle was unaware that the power was scaled the way it is - that being quite overpowered. The issue is mainly that during the last revision, the power was scaled using the Brute scale damage as the base and thus all versions are overpowered. The fact that the higher-scale damage is applied to the whole 20' radius is secondarily incorrect and overpowered. The power will be altered, but it has not been stated how exactly. As for the time frame for the alteration - none was given, but Castle did mention that he'd have to consult with others before implementing any alteration, and that it was not going to take precedence over more pressing concerns. So, Shield Charge will eventually get nerfed, but we don't know exactly how or when it will occur. |
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I think make SD good at the tanker (because its their primary) and from their give scrappers and brutes the 25% weaker version of SD
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Originally Posted by Hejtmane
I think AAO is what will take a hit that is what sets the set apart and gives us some crazy damage output along with the recharge. If I had to guess I thinking they will reduced the damage buff cap from 10 to about 8. With 10 in range you get somewhere around 81% damage buff throw in IO's I know I get like 20% I am hitting 100% damage buff from IO +AAO. If we drop it to 8 we go from 81% to 67% not sure if that is enough of a decline I am not the super math gurus of the form. 7 would be 60% and 6 would be around 53% on the damage buff.
Like I said my guess is we will drop from 10 to 8 targets for damage buff |
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Which begs the question, how big do the numbers have to be before you'd consider it a nerf? This is a near 50% reduction in the strength of the power outside of leg-humping range.|
Originally Posted by Windenergy21
Well from the values i've seen i think, its not exactly a nerf.
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I can't think of many situations where a power would be altered to this extent and it wouldn't be considered a nerf; deserved or otherwise.
If your gonna change SC like it obviously sounds like you are why not go the whole mile and not anything less let me explain.
Make it follow AT rules, let the scrapper one crit, give the brute one the 800% damage cap that brutes have, and I'm not a fan of tankers so I have no idea if their SC envokes gauntlet or not but if it doesn't make it so.
Thank you for reading.