City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

What can the other secondaries do better than /Shield?

AlienOne

By AlienOne,
Posted on: 2010-04-29 03:16 in Scrappers

 

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LOL, 1/10th current damage? So, a Scrapper "nuke" on a 1 minute timer that does 14 points of base damage at level 50?
Well, 1/10th current damage would be 20 points.

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And yet, after all these years, even old SOed Fulcrum Shift in Support/Control AT is still working as intended...
That puzzles me too. Always wondered if there was a decimal error in FS recharge.

 

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Originally Posted by Nihilii View Post
Well, 1/10th current damage would be 20 points.
Well, I THOUGHT so, but that's not what Mids' was telling me. Is it a problem with my Mids'? Maybe it messed up some settings when I uninstalled and reinstalled? Hmmm, it's set to average damage, and it says "Smashing(141.2x1) = 141.2". Trying in game. Leaving AAO and Assault off. It says I have a 2.5% damage set bonus, 97.2% damage in the attack, so +99.7% damage. That makes it easy. And poof, it does 400 points of damage, so 200 points base.

So from where is my Mids' coming up with 141.2? What am I doing wrong?

"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks

 

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Originally Posted by Dispari View Post
I don't think I've spent even 1 billion on any of my toons. Even my fully IOed out widow probably wasn't that much. Other than her, I have an IOed out Elec/Invuln Brute who was pretty cheap, and two Shield toons who do fine without even needing to be soft-capped (they each have around 30% DEF), who I didn't spend much on. I guess I also have IO scraps on my Necro/Dark MM, but I'd be surprised if I even spent 100m on her.

The rest of my 26 toons just use standard IOs with a random IO scrap here or there.
Well, I'm closer to you too. I have one crazy fire/rad IOed controller then a couple 100-200 million characters and everyone else is SOs and frankenslot IOs.

My point is most people, I think, spend that or far less, but the forums are dominated by the "min/max, played the game 6 years, squeeze every last ounce of awesome out of my character" player and I feel that the backlash (this week) on /Shield Defense is driven by what they can do with that powerset in optimized conditions, such as pylon fighting.

The average CoH player will not see that level of performance and not do those activities. I'd rather have the game balanced around the average player than the extreme player.

Want to solo pylons with a 10 billion influence build? Knock yourself out. But don't nerf sets so that they negatively affect SO builds who are not defense soft capped, saturating AAO, max global recharge builds.

Obviously bug fixes are different. Just make sure the fix is in response to a coding error and not just appease the forumites.

@SBeaudway on Pinnacle, TaskForce Titans Supergroup.

 

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So from where is my Mids' coming up with 141.2? What am I doing wrong?
I've downloaded the latest Mids (I17 version) this morning and it also comes up with 140ish. It seems they just never got around to update the values to post-buff values.

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My point is most people, I think, spend that or far less, but the forums are dominated by the "min/max, played the game 6 years, squeeze every last ounce of awesome out of my character" player and I feel that the backlash (this week) on /Shield Defense is driven by what they can do with that powerset in optimized conditions, such as pylon fighting.
[Insert standard Nihilii reply about Shield on SOs being stronger than other secondaries in his experience here]

I guess I should just write it up nicely and copypaste it everytime someone goes "oh yeah but you're only talking about billion inf builds", like those folks do for server merges.

 

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Originally Posted by Nihilii View Post
[Insert standard Nihilii reply about Shield on SOs being stronger than other secondaries in his experience here]
Well, I do think it's more offensive, but it's less survivable with SOs. At least compared to SR, Dark, Regen, Invuln or Ice which I have some experience with. So, I guess, stronger is relative to me. Esp. when leveling up.

@SBeaudway on Pinnacle, TaskForce Titans Supergroup.

 

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Originally Posted by Nihilii View Post
[Insert standard Nihilii reply about Shield on SOs being stronger than other secondaries in his experience here]
Maybe it takes an understanding of the rules, builds and play that many players don't have?

On Shield Defense, I'm going to do this:
  • Slot Deflection and Battle Agility with three defense SOs
  • Slot Weave with three defense SOs
  • Slot Combat Jumping with one defense SO
  • Slot Active Defense with three recharge SOs for a nice margin of error
  • Slot a Steadfast Protection unique
  • Take Phalanx Fighting
  • Use a single small purple inspiration at a time as required
  • Never die

OK, yes, that technically isn't "just with SOs", but seriously, you can afford a Steadfast Protection. You just can. And if you're being a stickler, then fine, take Manuevers and slot it with two defense, and you'll get the same thing. I suppose you could say that using inspirations isn't "just with SOs", but I'm betting that 99%+ of the player population uses inspirations while leveling, so I'd call that a nonsense argument.

Those power choices and that slotting puts me at 32.4% defense. One small purple inspiration puts me at 44.9% defense, effectively soft-capped. I have my status protection. Oh, we're done. That's all you need to be almost unkillable in normal content. You can now focus the rest of your build on destroying your enemies, at which it will excel. Now, I DO recommend taking True Grit and at least slotting heal SOs in it. You'll want to take and slot Tough (had to take it to get to Weave anyway). But seriously, making Shield Defense unkillable is just that easy.

But a lot of players probably won't do that. A lot of players will probably have less defense than that. A lot of players probably don't realize how much more important purples are than greens for their survivability. A lot of players don't understand the soft cap. A lot of players are going to find Shield Defense fairly squishy.

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Originally Posted by SBeaudway View Post
Well, I do think it's more offensive, but it's less survivable with SOs. At least compared to SR, Dark, Regen, Invuln or Ice which I have some experience with. So, I guess, stronger is relative to me. Esp. when leveling up.
You may want to review and implement the above list.

Edit: OK, that was unwarranted. Sorry. I don't think Shield Defense survivability is anything special. I'd call it around average, and you were just saying "less survivable" not "squishy". I'm not sure I agree that it's less survivable than the secondaries mentioned, but it's certainly arguable. Either way, though, properly built, even on the cheap, Shield Defense has plenty of survivability for most purposes.

"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks

 

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Agreed with everything Werner just said.

And yet, as great as SD can be for pure survival, I don't think I'd have problems with SD survivability by itself. It's when you stack SC on top of that, by itself before AaO is factored in, and then *with* AaO. SC is something you just click and it happens. JoeAverageGuy is going to get close results with SC (again, not considering AaO) than the best minmaxers out there. On normal AoEs you can argue there's some skill (as little as it might be, viewed from the perspective of a seasoned player) in gathering mobs into the 8 or 10 feet area for hitting as many targets as possible ; with SC's 20 feet radius, you roughly aim the middle of the pack and everything is hit by a massive damage AoE KD.

On SOs, you've got top survivability, you've got top damage and on top of that it's easy to play. It just seems a little too good to me.

(Not that I mind. I'm probably going to roll yet another Shield scrapper in the following week. Nerf, what nerf ? It's still going to be months before any eventual nerf happens, and even if SC is slashed in half it's still going to be great).

 

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Originally Posted by Werner View Post
Maybe it takes an understanding of the rules, builds and play that many players don't have?

On Shield Defense, I'm going to do this:
  • Slot Deflection and Battle Agility with three defense SOs
  • Slot Weave with three defense SOs
  • Slot Combat Jumping with one defense SO
  • Slot Active Defense with three recharge SOs for a nice margin of error
  • Slot a Steadfast Protection unique
  • Take Phalanx Fighting
  • Use a single small purple inspiration at a time as required
  • Never die

Recovery uniques to be able to run all that ? just off the top of my head that looks like 1.4 end/sec with tough and AAO going.

Edit now that i think about it Active defense with 3 recharge will bring that up to about 1.5

 

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stamina should be enough
you're only gonna be using a max of 13.5 endurance per spawn

 

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Originally Posted by Another_Fan View Post
Recovery uniques to be able to run all that ? just off the top of my head that looks like 1.4 end/sec with tough and AAO going.

Edit now that i think about it Active defense with 3 recharge will bring that up to about 1.5
I don't run the recovery uniques or the Performance Shifter proc while leveling. It's a good idea if you have the influence to blow, and technically I do, but I've still just been too lazy/cheap to do it. I've always leveled up on the cheap.

I personally also run Leadership on top of all of that, but that's too much for just SOs unless you really want to gut your damage output. By the time I'm running all that and Leadership, I'll also have frankenslotted my attacks, which is a much more cost-effective way of handling endurance than picking up the uniques (though again doesn't meet the SO-only qualification, even if it's easily afforded on what you earn while leveling). On my Fire/Shield with a gapless chain, it was still too much to also run Assault and Grant Cover full time, and I ended up running Tactics, Assault and Grant Cover situationally until I could pick up Conserve Power, and then I still did it out of habit. I'm guessing that most people will probably skip Leadership and Grant Cover, and won't have that problem.

"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks

 

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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
Yowch... Now thats a tough gig I'd never want to have to play ><
Teaching can and does have its rough points, but there are good things, too. I have students occasionally interview me for a class assignment, and they usually ask why I'm a teacher. And I can honestly say I don't feel like many other jobs let me affect the world as much as I can as a teacher. It's not for everyone, but I really do enjoy doing it.

And ha, I had somebody comment on that same post (via rep), incredulously exclaiming over how I said I'm like Castle. I only said I figure he reacts to criticism the same way I do, from what I have seen. Werner said he'd just ignore it, but Castle obviously isn't always able to, nor am I. I would guess it's because he cares, but that is obviously a guess. Ugh.

Another point about SD and SOs to point out is that a Shield Tanker can almost get to the soft cap with SOs and the right power selections (you might even be able to get there and I'm just forgetting a power selection). 42.7% without even using an inspiration. So I doubt the devs are going to up the defense levels on Shields at all, they do want us to work a bit to get to the cap. Not sure how much the devs can separate the numbers for a set between ATs... I forget how the mechanics of that work right now (brain haze from grading).

You could possible argue for a bit more resists to the set, but I doubt it would even get that. Even if Shield Charge gets reduced to what Castle posted earlier (which is what... still the levels it was at for Scrappers and Tankers when it came into the game), SC and AAO are still great offensive options, and they need to be offset somewhere.

Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory

 

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Originally Posted by J_Money View Post
Damn I just got my /SD IO'd out. At least give me the ability to put all those IO's on another toon or something like that before I put it on the shelf after the nerf.
You already have that ability... which in and of itself is a gift from the Devs, as they didn't really want to even allow you the ability to take out up to 10 Enhancers at a time.


 

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Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven View Post
You already have that ability... which in and of itself is a gift from the Devs, as they didn't really want to even allow you the ability to take out up to 10 Enhancers at a time.
So what are you saying, that the devs think we should lose all of our IOs when we respec? When THEY make changes to the game, and we're trying to adapt our builds? What an awesome idea for player retention. Punish us for game changes. Insult to injury is always the best policy.

Why do I doubt that's their attitude? I mean, I could be wrong, but that seems downright hostile.

"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks

 

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Posi is on record as saying that allowing us 10 enhancements saved (not slotted or sold) on respec is a gift. So not so much that it's a negative thing, but a balancing point. I do think they perceive that the respec system is too clunky, though, as Castle was passing that on to the other devs. However, we won't see any changes to the system for a long while (like a year from when he posted at least).

I kind of wish they had thought of doing that sooner, but oh well. At least it sounds like something is being adjusted.

However, the better response to it is to ask why a person would shelve there Shields Scrapper because of this. The intended numbers Castle cited earlier in the thread are QUITE good, and he also thinks AAO is fine as is. There is no reason to think Shields is not worth playing even if these changes go through.

I know there is the whole emotional "I don't like being nerfed" feeling, but we've been over that road already. Shields is a good set now, and still will be/would be at those numbers cited.

Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory

 

Posted

Well, OK then. I guess Positron sounds downright hostile, then. "Sorry for messing with your character. Tell you what, I'll let you remove ten no-longer-useful IOs per respec burned, and the first one's free. My gift to you." Thanks, Posi! *chuckle*

It could be worse. It could also be better.

"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks

 

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Originally Posted by Werner View Post
Nice. I'm not a teacher, but everyone else in my family is or was (thus making me the undereducated black sheep ).
Heh, I can just imagine.

Little Werner: Mom... Dad... I don't want to be a teacher.

Werner's Mother: Oh, dear, Werne-

Werner's Father: What is the meaning of this, son!?

Little Werner: I... I want to do math in a video game. I want to help people to understand it. I'll still be educating, just, in a different way.

Werner's Mother: Baby, maybe you should reth-

Werner's Father, rising, angry: I HAVE NO SON!

 

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*snerk* Too funny.

Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory

 

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Originally Posted by Nihilii View Post
On SOs, you've got top survivability, you've got top damage and on top of that it's easy to play. It just seems a little too good to me.
I really would not classify SD on just SOs as "top survivability".

Then again, I mainly play Brutes and leveling SD Brutes on just SOs can be an exercise in frustration.

L1-34 is pretty awful, around L20 or so you're hovering near 20-25% defense with only True Grit to back it up taking Alpha Strikes for 8 man teams against some of the more challenging enemy groups you can face while leveling.


Life was never that bad on my Invuln or Willpower brutes at the same levels on just SOs.

 

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Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze View Post
stamina should be enough
you're only gonna be using a max of 13.5 endurance per spawn
lol, true enough. And when you aren't killing entire spawns for that cost you have AAO giving Shields good endurance efficiency by improving dpe.

ie.
Hack w/ 3 dam SO's
23.45 damage per endurance
w/ 3 dam SO's and AAO
up to 33.23 damage per endurance

Compared to the conserve power affect of Energize found in ELA
Hack w/ 3 dam SO's + energize discount
37.46 damage per endurance

 

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Originally Posted by Werner View Post
Edit: OK, that was unwarranted. Sorry. I don't think Shield Defense survivability is anything special. I'd call it around average, and you were just saying "less survivable" not "squishy". I'm not sure I agree that it's less survivable than the secondaries mentioned, but it's certainly arguable. Either way, though, properly built, even on the cheap, Shield Defense has plenty of survivability for most purposes.
I don't think /Shield Defense is squishy by any means, I just find it easier to level up with those other powersets. Shield Charge, while awesome, comes late in the build. At 50, with those other defensive powers slotted and the +3% defense IO, it is really great. Just not so much, IMHO, getting there. Which is the balance point I think.

/SR which is similar, is easier to soft cap sooner and with much better defense debuff resistance. At 50, of course, those advantages are mitigated by IO slotting of /SD and /SR is left with +recharge and +move, which most people don't value as much. But there was all that playtime getting to 50 where /SR was better.

Most forumites don't seem to factor in leveling up when considering powersets. I don't know if the Devs do.

@SBeaudway on Pinnacle, TaskForce Titans Supergroup.

 

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Originally Posted by Frosticus View Post
lol, true enough. And when you aren't killing entire spawns for that cost you have AAO giving Shields good endurance efficiency by improving dpe.

ie.
Hack w/ 3 dam SO's
23.45 damage per endurance
w/ 3 dam SO's and AAO
up to 33.23 damage per endurance

Compared to the conserve power affect of Energize found in ELA
Hack w/ 3 dam SO's + energize discount
37.46 damage per endurance
Put one SO end reducer in Hack and re-compare. AAO will look even more appealing. (~45 DPE for Energize vs. ~44 for AAO at best). Of course, most players are probably not at saturated bonus very often.

Energize costs 10.4 end every ~60 seconds, AAO costs 12.6 over 60 seconds. I wish Energize had zero or a negligible endurance cost. The power would be much more interesting that way.

Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.

 

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Originally Posted by Werner View Post
So what are you saying, that the devs think we should lose all of our IOs when we respec?
Ummm no. I said that they don't think we should be able to PULL OUT up to 10 Enhancers per respec. Sorry that it was not clear. Their goal is that we re-slot everything that we used initially, and lose the rest. Hence the money-back option for not slotting things. Grey Pilgrim corroborated what I said (Thanks!).


 

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Originally Posted by Thirty-Seven View Post
Ummm no. I said that they don't think we should be able to PULL OUT up to 10 Enhancers per respec. Sorry that it was not clear. Their goal is that we re-slot everything that we used initially, and lose the rest. Hence the money-back option for not slotting things. Grey Pilgrim corroborated what I said (Thanks!).
That works on SOs.

On IO sets, that vary wildly in market price with powerset/power/IO changes that can severely compromise or break a build - I think a respec system that did not allow for the removal of at least some Enhancements would be terrible.

I would most likely lose interest in high end builds, and eventually the game itself and leave.