What can the other secondaries do better than /Shield?

I think the devs get things 'right' most of the time. If I see something I disagree with, I voice my disagreement, it's as simple as that.

Now, you equating that to me hating everything the devs do, and that I think all the devs are completely incompetent is simply wrong, untrue, and complete nonsense.

I'm guessing that stems from me mentioning 'devpets', lol. That would refer to posters who do exactly what I described, in that they defend anything and everything they do, absolutely. Now if you don't do that, then you're not a devpet and I clearly was not referring to you, so why be so upset? Come in close for a big hug little buddy.

The points you make are why I, and many others, play this MMO and not one of the others. If I want to single mob pull and fight things by ones and twos, I'll go play those games. In this game I can fight piles of minions, several LTs, and a couple Bosses all at once. That's always what the game has been, that's why I'm here. It does make me feel more superheroic than the other MMO model.

And here is a great reason why you don't mess with stuff that's been in the game for so long, this late in the games life, unless it's ridiculously broken. And sure, SD does lots of damage, but it hasn't stopped people from playing other sets, nor is SD an 'auto win' button. It's exceptional but not game breaking.

People like werner will abandon their build and move on or quit, while a lot of other angry players will have to strip their sd's of IO's with the limited respec system and move on to something else, while a bunch more will rage quit. All that for what? Is SD damaging the game that much? I'd argue no, obviously, lol.

If you're going to make massive adjustments to a powerset, that is what beta is for. If you miss it in beta, catch it within a few months. But to wait over a year is just flat out ridiculous. And yeah, I've heard the argument 'all the other mmo's do it' - ok, but they almost always have the results you see here, disgruntled players who lose confidence in what they are playing, and end up losing the desire to play it.

Same. It's a super hero game, I don't enjoy having a super hero getting killed by two hellions, lol. Now in a game where you're just some regular schmo, you could get greased by anybody, and that's fine. And I'm not saying it's that bad in this game either, I'm simply saying I'd rather see more powers like SC, and less powers like whirling hands.

Thing is, I think most of the people who play this game want to feel 'overpowered', you know, like a super hero... I noticed this fact when AE came out and whenever we played one of the more challenging missions (ie. the ones that could kill off players regularly) everyone seemed to despise those, and seemed to favor the easy ones (ie, the ones where they felt really powerful). Does that mean let the players be invincible? Of course not, but powers like SC don't make you anywhere near invincible.

I'd like to see consume improved. At least lower the recharge time considerably.

What are you talking about, scrappers need to worry about 'defensive needs' as much as a brute, especially an SD running AAO, and they have less health as well...

I don't know if I'd change anything either-- I too like feeling like a super hero. But you could double the recharges and halve the number of targets hit on many AOEs in this game and STILL do more area damage than characters in many other MMOs.

There's nothing in this game right now that is so terribly broken that I would prefer 'better design tools' over new content, but opinions vary I guess (unless the better design tools resulted in faster production of new content in the future...). I think most of the playerbase right now is flat out dying for new content, not sitting around angry that SC is doing so much damage, so thank god GR is on the way.

The point he was making, i think, is - there probably is some really good stuff in GR, and he'll probably invest a ******** of time into it only to find out the thing he liked was 'too good' because someone put the wrong values in, over a year ago, and then it would get nerfed into something that didn't appeal to him. That's what this kind of activity creates - uncertainty, which pisses off many customers, even if it doesn't bother you specifically.

I can't think of any other way to judge the design tools as being "better" other than to be able to generate the same desired results faster and more error-free. Every balance problem Castle works on is a critter we don't get: every error correction translates to powersets we won't ever get to play. Think about where we would be today if just *half* of the balance problems and typographical errors from release to now were prevented by better design and analysis tools.

The more I think about it, the more I think I should just write some.

I love it when people spout nonsense like this. "Those kinda mistakes" happen all the time in business, and are often tolerated. I see it all the time, and I work at one of the largest trucking companies in America.

You fix it and try to do better next time. Sometimes someone is disciplined or loses their job, depending on the reason that the mistake occured, how much it cost the company, and how public it was, but quite often they are just told "do better next time" and nothing more is said.

On the subject at hand, I've been certain that Shield Charge was going to get a nerf as soon as I saw a shield toon in action. (Your most damaging attack should not come from your defensive powers, IMO.) I'm just surprised it took this long for the devs to notice.

I'm just glad that I got my shield brute leveled up an IO'd out in time to enjoy the "overpoweredness" for once. Even with reduced damage for SC (if that is what they eventually decide) it is still a great set and SC will still do a lot of damage.

Yeah... I really do enjoy how the game is set up. I kind of understand how it can get a tad unbalanced, but I also like it. I'd be interested to see what the new endgame stuff does to make the game more challenging. If it ups the difficulty for that content without changing how the AOEs work, I'm fine.

I snipped this down a bit. Basically, I would say Werner is overdoing it, since all Castle has said is that Shield Charge would get toned back (he even said what the numbers were supposed to be which are still QUITE good). Of course, it's up to him to decide what he wants to invest in.

There is still the basic problem that other people pointed out, and it's that things are going to change in the game. Preferably it won't be too many nerfs, but it is going to happen. You just can't expect things not to change, even if it has been in the game awhile.

And believe me, I do also feel the irony you describe of Fiery Aura now needing improvements (well, on top of others that have been made over the years). Really, Burn was the more overpowered portion of the set, and it got smacked down overly hard... which revealed other weaknesses in the set (oh, and I do think Consume could use lower recharge as well... a lot of other end recovery powers have much less recharge). Burn needed to be toned down, that's for sure, but I wish it had been adjusted well when it got hit so hard.

Oh, probably. But I can be a moody *****. I left the game for about six months after all the Regen nerfs. Came back because nothing else was as fun. Abandoned Werner a second time after a series of changes that were a net BUFF in most situations, because his build was no longer finely tuned to match the new rules, which made me feel suboptimal even if I was better, and it seemed like more trouble to make him optimal than to just focus on some new toon.

This will sound really stupid, because it is, but I somehow forgot about Going Rogue in all of this. Yes, of course this is a bad time to hope for stability. I should probably hold off on anything that I consider "long term" like purpling out a character. It just makes sense right now. I should relax and level up some characters that sound like fun. The cards are all getting thrown in the air soon. I should stop worrying about build planning.

Well, I don't have the cash on hand, but I'm very good at generating it quickly. But I haven't really been in the mood for earning influence. More in a mood for leveling alts. In which case the answer is obvious, I suppose - I should spend my time leveling alts, and not worrying about putting together any top end builds. Do what I currently find fun. Duh.

I USED TO expect a nerf. It was obviously very strong. Looked like a likely target. Then they BUFFED it instead. At that point, I figured they MUST have looked at it more carefully, and decided that not only were they satisfied that it wasn't overpowered, but they felt it was actually less powerful than they intended. So I stopped worrying about the impending nerf to it at that point.

The nerf I still expected (and kind of still expect) was for them to make the DDR in Active Defense unenhanceable. THAT I was prepared for mentally, and I made sure that my character concept and build were still satisfying even if my DDR got nuked. But massive AoE was kind of central to the concept. Even "remarkably good AoE" is kind of drifting away from what I intended. In any case, yeah, Going Rogue, everything changing, not a good time to look for stability. Much better time to go character surfing.

I've got billions of respecs (I counted!). It's not so much the cost as it is the trouble. Replan, repurchase, do a few respecs in a row. Shouldn't I be playing the game instead? The answer, of course, is yes. And so that's what I'll be doing. Trying to just play the game and enjoy myself.

I can't speak for other people. For me it isn't so much about the size of the nerf (or buff), but the mere fact that the rules are changing.

Someone keeps taking my toys away, breaking them, and then gluing them back together all different. I don't care much if it's better or worse when they're done. I care that someone keeps taking my toys away and messing with them. I just want to be able to play with my toys without them constantly being taken away for adjustments.

Right, and my builds tend to be very finely tuned. Exactly soft-capped defense. Exactly sustainable endurance. Exactly enough damage output to achieve some particular goal. Whatever it might be. That fine balance is easily disrupted, even by buffs. But you are right that it is simply the nature of MMOs. I need to roll with these punches, or find a different pastime. That's just the way of it.

Yeah. So I guess what I'm discovering is that I might have the skill to min/max, but I don't have the heart for it, the perseverance for it. Or perhaps more accurately, I don't have the heart for it 24/7. Sometimes I just need to chill out, play the basic game (which is fun and not nearly so sensitive to these little changes), and recharge my batteries. That's cool. Just need to recognize when I'm burning out on the high end game and walk away for a bit.

If I'm honest with myself, I'm in the bowling pin camp. If I wanted smart AI, I'd PvP. I want my bad guys to be lambs to the slaughter. OK, they can be LIONS to the slaughter, and I prefer it that way, but I don't want them, for instance, running away when they get hurt. Stand still and let me kill you! It's so ANNOYING chasing you down! I'd probably have similar opinions if the enemies were smart enough to spread out to avoid AoEs, send someone running to the next group to pull them over too, or whatever a smarter enemy would do.

Well, that's probably the point I WOULD have been making had I not completely forgotten about Going Rogue while in the throes of nerdrage.

I think I'll have more tolerance for change in Going Rogue, at least for a while. It's going to be big and new. Of course I should expect changes. But after a year or two? I'd really hope they have it ironed out, but evidence is they probably won't, and I probably shouldn't expect it. That's just not how MMOs work, even if I wish it was how they worked.

I AM overdoing it. It IS how I feel when I'm in a bad mood, but I also recognize that I'm being a petulant child over a fairly minor "we'll look into it" regarding something that was very, very powerful. I like playing this game. A lot. There are aspects of it I don't like, and moving my cheese constantly is one of those aspects. But it's simply part of the MMO genre. I've actually pretty much told other people to suck it up and deal with aspects of the MMO genre they don't like, or find a different genre. I seriously need to take my own advice.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Hey now, I wouldn't call you a petulant child, that's just mean. I was just trying to help you see the error of your ways, heh. So see the bright side! Shield Charge will still be wicked cool, fun, and effective!

I do know what you mean, though... I don't like having to respec and try to avoid it as much as I can (I generally plan my bulids out to a T on Mid's before playing them much, and adjust that build as I level, meaning I don't have to respec from a bad choice very much). However, it still happens.

Probably the most annoying thing for me was when I got a Stone/SS Tanker to 32 and found I hated Granite form with a passion. I had even started to IO him, too. I dropped him when Shields came out, plucking out as many of his IO sets as I could, but that was a pain... I did that over a couple of weeks, I think, as I hate wasting game time on respecs.

Enough rambling, but I do know the pain of shifting stuff around and repecing.

Oh, I think Castle (maybe someone else?) mentioned somewhat recently he'd ask about revamping the respec system, but not to expect anything from it until much later.

You can tell when TA is mentally broken because he starts talking like the Rikti...


On the subject of enhanced AI, I really prefer that sort of things in very specific Story Arcs or in Task/Strike Forces. I don't want to always have to think really hard about what I'm doing every time I get in the game, but at the same time I still like that there's opportunity to be challenged if I so desire it.

Well, I would suppose that she sounds smart because she IS smart.

I just hope when they look at SD, they look at what they did to sets like FA and EM when they 'looked' at them, and not make the same mistakes, and overnerf the set into becoming an underperforming set that isn't fun to play. And IMO, SC is a HUGE reason why SD is fun to play and worth leveling up. Obviously, I'd have to wait to see how badly they weaken it to see if its still worth playing for me, but cutting the damage in half would probably ruin the set for the way I enjoy it.

As many people as there are who complain that SC is too powerful, a similar amount of players complain about SD being a bit weak comparative to other sets leveling up. If they're going to hamstring SC, maybe they could throw people a bone by buffing up some of the other powers so it's a bit better on SO's and at lower levels.

True, but this far into the game, can you go back and reset all the design tools, then force all of your existing material into that setup, while still providing new content to keep a player base?

And even if you had a better set up/organized design system, devs would still tinker with existing powers looking for that elusive 'perfect balance' which imo, is nearly impossible in a game with so many variables involved.

Even with what appears to be a bit of a haphazard design system, the game works pretty well overall, and even though there are clearly imbalances, it still provides an enjoyable gaming experience. It seems everyone has accepted the idea of balance equates to some sort of nirvana, and I'm not so sure that is an unquestionable truth. It can be argued that having some imbalance allows for more variety and adds flavor to the game. If all the sets were perfectly balanced and all did the same exact single target damage and aoe damage overall, to me, that would be a boring, uninspired mess.

I think it's the old math/science vs art thing, some people have to keep the color absolutely inside the lines, others scribble all over the place - i think this game is somewhere in the middle, and it works, for me at least. I just wish the games 'artists' would stop messing with the pictures they've already completed and make some new ones.