Damage output?

Westley:
I do have and use Hover.

Cat:
Yes, they all do, but they don't all have the ability to sustain or do the same amount of damage with that endurance, which can leave some sets at a severe disadvantage.

Sarrate:
Yes, but debuffing Def will result in more hits, which results in more damage.
You're right, blues aren't always the answer. That's why I also tried using a combination of blues and reds, among other things.

Your examples are good, and describe what I'm trying to get at in a way.

PC Guy:
Grow up. Telling people to "stfu" and "gtfo" is childish and unproductive.

Bill:
I'm not going to address this, as it's little more than namecalling.
Numbers don't lie, but they can mislead.


Arcana:
I apologize if it seemed I was putting words in your mouth. That was never my intent. It does seem we agree on the issue, even if I've presented it poorly. I'll start over without the confusing example.


I, and others before me, have percieved a significant lack of performance in Defenders, specifically offensive ability. That is, they are sometimes unable to do enough damage to defeat some foes. There are many possible examples of this.

There are two ways this could be remedied. First, damage could be increased. I don't think this is the appropriate solution, as it would give a disproportionate advantage to primaries that improve their damage output.

The alternative is to decrease endurance use. Doing this would not create an advantage to power sets already able to generate sufficient damage, but it would allow power sets without that advantage to reach the same damage output, just over somewhat longer time.


Is that clearer?

Okay Ultimo_, let's play your game. Here is your proposition, your "hypothesis" if you will:

Unwilling to change build or playstyle at all.

Is presented with NON debuffing defenders soloing the SAME MOB and ignores the evidence.

Yeah, it's you and your build.

TR:
No, I didn't neglect him. However, his characteris Level 50, which means he's getting greater effect from hi enhancements (notably the endurance modification, but also the damage), and he does have passive accolades that affect it too. Any power set that has a means of increasing theeffect of its damage will do better than Force Fields or Energy, neither of which can.
As I say, though, that example is confusing the issue, and I'm trying to leave it behind.

Uberguy:
Yes, Tech has the Fighting pool, in order that he could have Tough and Weave. It's kind of irrelevant, but I can post thebuild if you really want it, when I get home.

Flechette:
As I understand, the game is balanced (so to speak) around SOs. IOs will certainly help, but they don't represent the standard.

Cat:
I don't have the info in front of me, but I believe most of the other sets have attributes that reduce Defense or Resistance. Again, I'll look when I get home.

Westley:
My fundamental hypothesis is that Defenders do too little damage relative to the endurance they use. As I see it, you could either increase the damage output or reduce the endurance use to correct this.

My opinion is that every character should be able to solo anything that is defined as soloable content. To me, that's everything up to and including Elite Bosses.

I do include mission architect enemies in this. If the AE can be used to create foes that are invincible in solo conditions that will appear when solo, then there's a problem with the AE system (which I do think anyway, but I realize the AE is still essentially in a beta state). Either way, I am prepared to set the AE aside for the moment. There's just too much variablity, so I think we should restrict the discussion to "normal" content.

Wavicle:
Again, that example is beside the point. Let us move on.

Bio:
Glad you enjoyed the fight!
As I say, if I had an ability that bottomed out his endurance, I might have been able to beat him, because with no endurance, he couldn't heal himself.

As I say, I'll post my build when I get home.

Luminara:
I'd appreciate it if you don't put words in my mouth. I'd also appreciate it if you posted constructively.

PC:
If I was the only one who ever brought this up, you might be right. However, I'm not, so...
Personal attacks are unconstructive and petitionable, and do nothing to strengthen your position. Please refrain from being insulting.

Schism:
If you have anything to add to the thread besides personal attacks, I'm happy to listen.

I agree, it distresses me when my threads go around in circles as they do. I'm trying very hard to keep it on track though.


That track is to discuss ideas to remedy the problem that many people have noted, that the damage output of Defenders is too low. I've suggested reducing endurance costs to allow for more sustained attacking, thereby increasing damage without actually increasing Damage.

Well, there's one option, having gotten hints about your build.

Grab Aim over something in the fighting pool. That will increase your damage per endurance over the long run. I'm pretty sure every one who've posted videos soloing Catburglar has Aim. I have Aim and Power Build Up from the epic pool.

FF, Energy Blast w/ knockback, Fighting Pool toggles, it really sounds like your build isn't a fendblaster build, but a fendtanker build. You're not building the character to kill, you're building the character to survive.

I'd humbly suggest using your second build to try a more offensive flavoured style, dropping fighting completly and taking aim and maybe your snipe. Snipe because with your above average defense compared to other flavours of defender (dispersion bubble, maneuvers if you take it), you have a better chance of firing it off in the middle of combat without any interruptions.

Aim + Snipe in combat will increase your combat curve. One could argue that it's not wise, sniping in combat, but if you have a second build (Or copy over to training room and respec) why not give it a shot, to see where the rest of us are coming from.

You've said you're not the first one to suggest defenders need a damage boost, fair enough, wisdom of the masses and all.

The other half of the masses are suggesting fixes to your build to address the problem that you feel exists. Wisdom of the masses, which you invoke, suggest that there may be something to what we're saying about your build or your playstyle, rather than the wholesale change of defenders. Give the builds changes a shot, and maybe we can meet in the middle somewhere.

Interestingly put. I do tend to play amore defensive style, and Tankers are my favourite class (ifI could have made a Tanker with blasts, none of this might have come up...).

In any case, I'd love to have been able to incorporate Aim, but I just didn't have room. For Defense, I needed to get to Weave, and that requires Boxing and Tough (and with Temp Inv., I'll have 71%+ Resistance!). I usually carry a couple of yellows and reds to compensate, though if the fight runs long, I can be at a disadvantage.

I'd thought about Snipe, and like it on other characters, but I wasn't sure what to leave out in favour if it. Energy Torrent? I don't know, I find that so useful. Certainly, it would increase total damage output.

My other build is my team build. Its full focus is on helping the team, and to that end I have lots of buffing pools (Leadership, etc.) and the team bubbles. The offense on that build is very anemic, but rationally so.

I appreciate that people offer me suggestions, and I usually do test them out (I copy to Test Server when its available). However, as was mentioned, I do start from a concept and then try to realize it in the game. Sometimes that precludes some of the suggestions. Also, it doesn't remedy a problem that I see affecting everyone. As I say, I'm not looking out just for me, I'm trying to make things better for everyone.


Westley, I think it may be better to consider dmage output from sets that don't have a mechanism built in that increases their own damage (not considering secondaries either).

As I say, I'm hardly the first one to note an issue here, I'm just hoping to find a good way to relieve it.

I guess I have to ask why you need weave and tough, especially since you're taking power epic pool. TI will grant you about 45% S/L resists, and is one toggle, rather then the 3 or so you seem to be running. That will help with end.

I would suggest on the training room to drop all of the fighting pool, if not before, then once you get TI slotted, then try Catburglar again. Don't know what else you're taking (I'd wager you're interested in conserve power given your worry over endurance, but PBU is the true gem of the power pool), but run in with PBU and Aim, using PBU first then Aim for your alpha (As PBU will, I believe, boost the values of Aim), then alpha. You should be able to fire off 2 or 3 attacks in this state, and the damage increase should be notable.

To survive this onslaught, your primary and secondary both highlight knockback, so cycle through powers that have good chance for knockback to keep your foe on the ground. Air Superority might be worth the prereq for flight if that's your travel power.

Psycho:
I wanted Weave, so I could approach the soft cap. Tough and Temp Inv. are for when I DO get hit (plus, they are in character for an armored hero).

As I say, I've been using inspirations instead of aim or buildup, but I can try rearranging a bt and see what it's like. The only concern I will have is that I may become too squishy.


I've always thought DPE should be equalized across all ATs and power sets, but one hurdle at a time .

As far as I know, and bearing in mind that there are powers which deviate from "standard" equations, there are common ways the devs calculate damage scale per point of endurance. The aforementioned AT modifiers then convert these damage scales into damage points, and from there we calculate DPE. Defenders deal, with otherwise analgous powers (and after level 20 or so) 58% as much damage with their ranged attacks as a Blaster would for the same attack, because they have a 0.65 AT ranged damage scale compared to a 1.125 scale for Blasters. That means their DPE is also 58% of a Blaster's.

I know Arcanaville has posted about this in the past, and has referred to those posts in this thread. I only somewhat remember the thesis, but I seem to recall (and think the posts here support) that Arcana didn't think this state of affairs was so hot.

I'm not sure why its considered good balance for characters in lower damage ATs to be both less efficient in damage per time and in terms of damage per point of endurance. Especially in this game, given the relatively high HP regen rates of player characters and NPCs alike, this is a definite double whammy. It's not a Defender-specific situation, but one that's true for all ATs with "low" damage scales. It just hits Defenders hardest, because they have the lowest AT damage mods that aren't accompanied by an inherent means to boost damage (such as Containment or Scourge). I'm not saying I think it needs to be changed, but I'm not sure of good arguments for it, beyond the obvious one that we've already got it, and it doesn't seem to be at a level that makes Defenders unplayable. (Which see: evidence in this thread.)

Of course, we have to be careful what we ask for here - if endurance costs were to go down as AT damage modifier does, making endurance costs reflect actual damage and not damage scales, then endurance costs could be increased for higher modifier ATs like Scrappers or Blasters. I don't think that would be very popular. It all depends on what scale is taken as the Damage Scale per Endurance baseline. (Such a change would probably give Brutes insanely attractive DPE unless they were given a modified version of the formula.)