Quote:
For an FF, I guess I can see the allure of reaching the soft cap.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Psycho:
I wanted Weave, so I could approach the soft cap. Tough and Temp Inv. are for when I DO get hit (plus, they are in character for an armored hero). As I say, I've been using inspirations instead of aim or buildup, but I can try rearranging a bt and see what it's like. The only concern I will have is that I may become too squishy. I've always thought DPE should be equalized across all ATs and power sets, but one hurdle at a time  . |
But if you can live without being at the soft cap (And having TI for when you do get hit...) you can invest those points into more offensive capabilities. And you can always use aim and insps at the same time...
If things die faster, you don't need to be as protected as much, since dead mobs deal no damage.
The more and more I hear about your build and your playstyle (Tank pref) it starts to appear you're wanting to meander over towards tank mage territory. If you want to specialize in personal defense on an AT not known for personal defense, you're just going to have to suck it up and deal with reduced damage. If you want to do damage, it's going to have to come at a cost.
My empath once took down 2 stalkers in RV, back when RV first came around. They saw empath, thought they could do an easy 1, 2 double team. I downed them both, though it was a lot of work.
I tend to believe I'd be a god in PvP if I had a damage increase (And the desire to PvP), and I'm not a debuffing set. (A rad/sonic in PvP with a boost in damage...) (And a decrease in end costs *IS* a boost in damage, as more powers, less worrying about managing the blue bar with toggles, less trade off with recharge increases, etc)
It's this background that I, and I think a lot of the aggressive and non-aggressive people here speaking against you take.
Another twist, since you said you're a tank player. Are you playing your character like a tank, or like a blaster? Not in power choice, but in combat decisions. Are you standing still, or moving around to take advantages in terrain? (It'ss possible to knock back the EB, run off to certain locations in certain maps, rest for maybe 10 seconds, then be up before the EB gets back. Sure, you don't get full health/end from a 5 or 10 second rest, but it's increased regen/recov for those periods, and it's more than you would other wise have.)
I have problems playing scrappers or tanks because of my defender mindset. I always scan an entire battle, always looking around to see if there's mobs in coming. This mindset, while not applicable to the discussion, implies that there are different mindsets for different ATs (And given the difference withing the Defender Primaries, I'd argue there's different mindsets for the different general classes of 'fenders, buffer vs debuffer).
It may be that your prefered mindset and playstyle just don't mesh well with the blastfender. Which is a shame, an offender is a constant challenge, IMHO, to an otherwise easy game. (I'm sure scrappers don't look at bosses the same way my emp/rad looks and handles them. And normally I'm scared of them...)
None of this implies that there's a problem with the class the devs have constantly said is the most balanced one in the game, even if 50% of the forums say otherwise.
Arc #345863 - When The Bough Breaks
"Curse you Perry the Plata...wait, is that Love Handel?" - Dr. Heinz Doofenshmirtz, Phineas and Ferb
Quote:
I don't know what to tell you then. The game has given you the tools to win that particular encounter. It's up to you to decide if you want to use them.
|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Flechette:
As I understand, the game is balanced (so to speak) around SOs. IOs will certainly help, but they don't represent the standard. |
Quote:
You say you aren't neglecting my example, but then you list why you're ignoring it.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
TR:
No, I didn't neglect him. However, his characteris Level 50, which means he's getting greater effect from hi enhancements (notably the endurance modification, but also the damage), and he does have passive accolades that affect it too. Any power set that has a means of increasing theeffect of its damage will do better than Force Fields or Energy, neither of which can. As I say, though, that example is confusing the issue, and I'm trying to leave it behind. |
Being level 50 does not magically make my enhancements better than yours. If I had level 50 inventions slotted in my attacks you might have a point, but I don't. Everything I have slotted in my power bolt and power blast are things you have access to on your level 39 character.
You have access to passive accolades just like I do. The only advantage I should have over you is portal jockey (5 endurance), though despite this your endurance efficiency should actually be BETTER than mine because I don't have power burst and had to use energy torrent as my third attack.
I'm not sure why you bring up the point that powersets other than force field and energy blast would do better on this task, because energy blast was basically the only powerset I used.
You are the only one who thinks that my example is confusing the issue. Everyone else thinks that it is valid.
Quote:
Well, one potential concern is it might make end management too easy. Since player recovery is static (discounting things like Transference) if end consumption drops below that, it is infinite. So, normalizing end costs to their damage mod (55% cost for Defenders) would be a huge boost. Someone consuming 2 eps attacking would be shaving 0.9 eps off that. That's equal to 54% extra recovery. Someone using 3 eps attacking would shave off 1.35 eps from the discount, or 81% recovery.|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
I'm not saying I think it needs to be changed, but I'm not sure of good arguments for it, beyond the obvious one that we've already got it, and it doesn't seem to be at a level that makes Defenders unplayable. (Which see: evidence in this thread.)
|
That said, I do think Defenders (and Tankers) consume too much end for their damage dealt. If their DPE was somehow raised, it would have to be done carefully, almost certainly not point for point.
(Not specifically your idea, Uber, but another reason not to link end costs to DPE: Brutes. They have an extremely low modifier, but deal a lot of damage. Imagine if they had an end discount on top of already dealing above average DPE.)
Yeah, I mentioned that. Brutes would be nuts. 
Under a strictly linear normalized DPE scheme, any powerset with significant, constant damage boosts would really stand out for DPE efficiency not just in their AT, but across the board. Super Strength (Rage), Claws (Follow Up), and of course, the entire Brute AT.
Of course, one could choose some sort of non-linear scheme. What to choose, of course, is the $64k question.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I say we go with a strict progressive tax. That way we can take from the rich to give to the poor. Like Robin Hood! Then EVERYONE will be equal!|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Yeah, I mentioned that. Brutes would be nuts.
Under a strictly linear normalized DPE scheme, any powerset with significant, constant damage boosts would really stand out for DPE efficiency not just in their AT, but across the board. Super Strength (Rage), Claws (Follow Up), and of course, the entire Brute AT. Of course, one could choose some sort of non-linear scheme. What to choose, of course, is the $64k question. |
...wait... which thread am I in again?
...awww.... ****.
Uber:
Well, that the endurance problem is the same for all the sets within the AT is is why I'm suggesting a change for the whole class instead of just one set.
Psycho:
Some good points.
I'm not after tankmage status (unless you consider any combination of range/defense to be tankmagery). I have no trouble with lower damage output, but it has to be sufficient to defeat the threats we encounter. At present, I find it lacking in this regard. Only a small tweak is necessary, though.
With Empathy, you will get access to the Recovery Aura, which grants you the endurance to sustain your attacks, the exact thing I'm suggesting.
That an endurance increase is a boost in damage is the point. The difference is that sets that had the capacity to defeat certain foes will still be able to while sets that had difficulty will fare better.
My playstyle has evolved with the character. At first, he was much more Blastery, using lots of ducking and weaving and lots of Force Bolting. Now, he's nearly capped in Defense, and has solid Resistance, so I am actually able to tank much more effectively. PLUS I have the PFF. It does depend on the situation, though. Some foes are harder to tank because they have better accuracy.
Interestingly, I play my Tanker much like you do. I've always felt the job of a Tanker is more than just punching stuff. You have to watch what the enemy is doing and move around to get their attention and lead them to where they're more vulnerable.
One thing I should say, I DO enjoy the character. I just get frustrated in some situations, and I'd like to see a bit better balance so those situations are challenging instead of frustrating.
I'm sure the devs are very bright people, and I don't mean to imply otherwise, but sometimes I really wonder if they ever actually PLAY the game. Sometimes the numbers just don't capture what's going on in the game.
Garent:
I didn't ignore your example, I apologize if you got that impression. The fact is that you did have advantages due to your level. By L50, I might not have had a problem either. Like IOs, you can't balance the game around the possession of Accolades or Veteran Rewards. You have to balance around the baseline.
To be clear, it wasn't your example that was confusing things, it was mine.
Sarrate:
I'm not a numbers guy, so I wouldn't presume to suggest a level of modification, but it doesn't strike me that much is needed. As Uber says, this is the question.
Here's the projected build. I should mention that the slotting isn't quite like this.
He's L40 now.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Technaught: Level 50 Technology Defender
Primary Power Set: Force Field
Secondary Power Set: Energy Blast
Power Pool: Flight
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leadership
Ancillary Pool: Power Mastery
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Personal Force Field -- DefBuff-I(A)
Level 1: Power Bolt -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(3), Acc-I(3), Dmg-I(5), Dmg-I(5)
Level 2: Force Bolt -- EndRdx-I(A), Acc-I(7)
Level 4: Energy Torrent -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(7), Acc-I(9), Dmg-I(9), Dmg-I(11)
Level 6: Air Superiority -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(11), Acc-I(13), Dmg-I(13), Dmg-I(15)
Level 8: Hover -- DefBuff-I(A), DefBuff-I(15), Flight-I(17)
Level 10: Power Blast -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(17), Acc-I(19), Dmg-I(19), Dmg-I(21)
Level 12: Swift -- Flight-I(A)
Level 14: Fly -- Flight-I(A), Flight-I(21), Flight-I(23)
Level 16: Boxing -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(23), Acc-I(25), Dmg-I(25), Dmg-I(27)
Level 18: Health -- Heal-I(A), Heal-I(27), Heal-I(29)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod-I(A), EndMod-I(29), EndMod-I(31)
Level 22: Dispersion Bubble -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(31), DefBuff-I(31), DefBuff-I(33)
Level 24: Tough -- EndRdx-I(A), ResDam-I(33), ResDam-I(33), ResDam-I(34)
Level 26: Repulsion Bomb -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(34), Acc-I(34), Dsrnt-I(36), Dsrnt-I(36)
Level 28: Weave -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(36), DefBuff-I(37), DefBuff-I(37)
Level 30: Power Burst -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(37), Acc-I(39), Dmg-I(39), Dmg-I(39)
Level 32: Maneuvers -- EndRdx-I(A), DefBuff-I(40), DefBuff-I(40), DefBuff-I(40)
Level 35: Explosive Blast -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(42), Acc-I(42), Dmg-I(42), Dmg-I(43)
Level 38: Nova -- Acc-I(A), Acc-I(43), Dmg-I(43), Dmg-I(45), Dmg-I(45)
Level 41: Conserve Power -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(45), RechRdx-I(46)
Level 44: Temp Invulnerability -- EndRdx-I(A), ResDam-I(46), ResDam-I(46), ResDam-I(48)
Level 47: Total Focus -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(48), Acc-I(48), Dmg-I(50), Dmg-I(50)
Level 49: Force of Nature -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Run-I(A)
Level 2: Rest -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 1: Vigilance
I might go with Build Up instead of one of the epic powers, but I'm undecided.
Quote:
Well, that's my cue to go. Have fun everyone!
| I'm sure the devs are very bright people, and I don't mean to imply otherwise, but sometimes I really wonder if they ever actually PLAY the game. |
Level 4: Energy Torrent -- EndRdx-I(A), EndRdx-I(7), Acc-I(9), Dmg-I(9), Dmg-I(11)
swap an endrec for a damage in all the attacks.
See the commentary above about popping reds for how a little extra damage really saves you end in the long run
@Catwhoorg "Rule of Three - Finale" Arc# 1984
@Mr Falkland Islands"A Nation Goes Rogue" Arc# 2369 "Toasters and Pop Tarts" Arc#116617
Quote:
Quick pointer: 2 Slots of flight speed in Fly should put you over the flight speed hard cap if using SO's or better. i have Defender with one 50 flight IO in Swift and Fly and she hits the speed cap. Slotting flight enhancers in Swift gives a fairly minimal return, but every bit helps for Hover, which is in no danger of hitting the speed cap even with max slotting.
|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Here's the projected build. I should mention that the slotting isn't quite like this.
He's L40 now. Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601 http://www.cohplanner.com/ Click this DataLink to open the build! Technaught: Level 50 Technology Defender Primary Power Set: Force Field Secondary Power Set: Energy Blast Power Pool: Flight Power Pool: Fitness Power Pool: Fighting Power Pool: Leadership Ancillary Pool: Power Mastery Hero Profile: Level 14: Fly -- Flight-I(A), Flight-I(21), Flight-I(23) |
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Your build is NOT good for soloing.
You need FULL damage in ALL your attacks. Until you have 90%+ damage in all attacks you can certainly expect to not do as well as you could offensively.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
Ultmo, I contend you're putting too much emphasis on defenses. Try running a few test fights with Catburglar without Weave, or without Tough. That's less end drain, which is more for your blasts, which as pointed out don't have 3 damage. Adding a third slot is a good way to wring out more damage per end...frankenslot if you have to
Yes, I may have recovery aura, but regen aura is more important to me. Having nigh-unlimited end doesn't help if I die. Regen aura, with my IO bonuses, health, and yes entropic chaos procs, and heal aura give me a sort of 'regen blaster' aspect, which is syngertic with my primary. It's my main defense, with TI as a weaker secondary defense.
It sounds like you're trying to be both a defense god and a resistance god. Pick one, weakening a second, and try focusing some energy of the second into damage and/or end management.
What my videos don't show is that I pretty much don't run with any toggles, only when recov. aura is up. The funny thing is that's how I play my scrappers and tankers and night widow too. Solo with these, I generally only have my mez toggle on, and not running half a tray of toggles. And I don't take stamina, ever, on any character. (I don't believe in stamina...) I've gotten a DB/DA scrapper to 25 w/o stamina, shelving him when I started working on NW. So it makes sense that you're having end problems running 4 toggles (5 once you get TI). For normal fights solo that don't have bosses, your kb should be enough to offset incoming damage, and what you do take, since you have health, should be recovered by the next fight.
One other option for play style is not to 'jam' on attacks. Pause 1 second between attacks, even if you have one available to use, if you're having end problems. I'm pretty sure this suggestion won't be looked upon with favor by anyone, let alone you Ult, but it's there...
One last thing, you have AS, Hover, and Fly. Could drop AS or hover for aim, based on if you want more knockdown or ... um ... what ever it is people use hover for in place of flight...
Arc #345863 - When The Bough Breaks
"Curse you Perry the Plata...wait, is that Love Handel?" - Dr. Heinz Doofenshmirtz, Phineas and Ferb
Not even worth the time to post.
Quote:
Except it's not the same for all sets, because some sets have ways to increase their damage.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Uber:
Well, that the endurance problem is the same for all the sets within the AT is is why I'm suggesting a change for the whole class instead of just one set. |
Ultimately, I really think we have to accept that importance of this matter is subjective.
First, there's the matter that some sets, primary and secondary, offer ways to increase their DPA and thereby DPE. Even just Assault works out to around 9% increase in DPA even including ED-"capped" damage slotting (more benefit than it gives any other AT). So one subjective argument revolves around whether one should get the same DPA/DPE buff potential no matter one's build choices. Others might argue that its reasonable for powersets to "trade" the Defender's DPS ability for benefit to teammates, especially when the AT's primary role arguably isn't direct damage dealing. (Certainly there have been many debates over the years about Force Fields's total benefit package viewed in the context of its peer powersets' team offerings.)
Second, how "painful" it is to solo at Defender damage levels is going to vary from person to person. I have some pretty crazy fast killing characters - heavily IO'd level 50 Scrappers and Brutes, for example. Despite this, I still have the patience to solo Defenders, and have leveled them up solo even under prior leveling rate regimes. (I prefer to level solo and then team at 50.) I certainly recognize that I'm progressing more slowly than I would on direct damage dealer (particularly ones with armors and mez protection), but I'm still generally OK with the resulting pace. So a lot depends on the person at the keyboard - whether this "problem" needs fixing comes down to how many people actually consider it a problem.
I think that's where this circles back to this needing to be clearly about your opinions and less about qualitative evidence based on examples (like this particular EB). We know Defenders have the lowest base DPA (and DPE) of all the ATs but Controllers, but without any inherent trick like Containment to improve it. They do have the best damage buff / DR debuff modifiers of all the ATs, but that only comes into play with the right powersets.
So if your thesis is that when playing a Defender that can't buff their own damage or debuff their foe's DR, a Defender is too slow for you, then I think no one can debate that. They can point out it's not too slow for them, but that's not the same thing as saying "you're wrong".
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
Granted that you said your slotting isn't quite like this... you need that third damage in your attacks, IMO.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Technaught: Level 50 Technology Defender
Primary Power Set: Force Field |
Here's why. Increasing damage slotting increases DPS and DPE at the same time. While the third slot loses something due to ED, adding a third slot is still a 17% increase over two slots in damage per attack. Personally, when using SOs or roughly equivalent common IOs, my slotting preference is 1-2 accuracy (two for fighting +1-+3 foes) 3 damage, and either 1 end reduction and/or one recharge. If I have slotted two accuracy, I choose end reduction or recharge on a power-by-power basis. (Low base recharge powers always get the end reducer, for example.)
My opinion is that you should trade in Boxing, Tough and Weave for Assault, Aim and possibly Hasten. I think that taking Air Superiority is mostly poor on a Defender, but slotting it and Boxing are really not the right investment. Put those slots in your ranged blasts instead, to get them to six slots. Your melee damage modifier is even lower than your ranged one. Spend the slots where they'll do the most good.
As others have suggested, I think you have traded too much offensive output for mitigation. Adding a third damag SO and Assault is going to be a 28% increase in your DPA over two SOs. Increasing your DPS with a power like Hasten won't help your DPA any, but it will improve your ability to hammer down your opponent's HP regen better in short bursts.
Yes, you'll be more vulnerable. However, you'll defeat foes what I think will be noticeably faster, which means they'll have less time to beat on you. At least with Dispersion Bubble, you don't have to worry so much that what they'll land on you will be mezzes (except for sleeps).
I realize that it's possible that none of those suggestions mesh with your character concept. You need to accept that the game's balance framework doesn't allow arbitrary character concepts to function effectively.
If you want to build a character for high defense, I really suggest you investigate that with IOs rather than the fighting pool. I know you feel they're not part of the baseline game. However, they are a part of the game now. Don't ignore them if they can help you do what you really want.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
I think you should do power build up instead of total focus. Energy blasts do more damage than total focus does because they're faster, and since power build up needs less slots than total focus you can put those slots into your blasts to make them even better.
|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
I might go with Build Up instead of one of the epic powers, but I'm undecided.
|
Quote:
Well, in response to this I feel that some clarification is in order.|
Originally Posted by Ultimo_
With Empathy, you will get access to the Recovery Aura, which grants you the endurance to sustain your attacks, the exact thing I'm suggesting.
That an endurance increase is a boost in damage is the point. The difference is that sets that had the capacity to defeat certain foes will still be able to while sets that had difficulty will fare better. |
Recovery Aura does take away all endurance concerns while its running, but is not available all the time. Actually having better endurance recovery built into the AT would make this power more of a team power than a solo power. But one thing I have to say Ultimo is that the recovery in no way transfers into extra damage, unless you believe that a defender will avoid using certain high-cost powers when its not running.
Here is my take on endurance usage problems for Defenders and Empathy in particular.
Not only do we need more DPE to arrest villains, but the COST of running our primary powers is pretty significant. For example Empathy solo (Pre-SO) has healing Aura, which is an AoE heal and its cost is huge (13 base iirc). Prior to Stamina and SO's this power is the solo Empath's only defense but its use is very detrimental to your End Bar.
After Stamina and SO's it becomes less painful to use as far as endurance, but is STILL an issue because of its 2+ sec activation. I have actually used this heal and watched all the HPs gained after casting be knocked back off during the activation time, meaning a net result of having the same HPs as prior to using the Heal.
So, considering these things my first choice would be a small increase to our damage, which will SAVE endurance by making fights shorter. I would like to see Defenders returned to their original 0.75 modifier that existed prior to ED and GDN.
If that were not an option, my second choice would be more HPs to toughen up the AT to survive better solo.
And finally, I think our Inherent needs a rework so that is does SOMETHING when solo.
Choices I like are A) counting my health in the global endurance saving calculations
or B) Give me a stacking effect of global endurance reduction, similar to how blasters get a Dps stacking effect.
But to recap, less endurance != more damage UNLESS you get that endurance savings thru Higher DPS not DPE
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Ultimo_
Glad to see you posted your build. Its answers alot of questions.
I have some suggestions for you, and hopefully I can get it in words successfully.
Base End recover at level 1 is 1.67/sec. You really should never drop below that point.
Your recovery is 2.50/sec with 1.29/sec use from just toggles. Thats too much.
I try and stay even higher than that on my builds, so that after Stamina my net recovery is more like 2.0/sec. I have seen people with crazy recovery in the 3+/sec range. This is really only possible with IOs, but the basic gist is you should be AT LEAST as good at recovering endurance as you were prior to Stamina. You should reconsider how many toggles you are using.
Biospark runs, CJ, Maneuvers, Tactics and Charged Armor. Thats it. It works fine.
For FF/Energy, I would probably go with Hover, Dispersion, TI and Maneuvers at most.
And honestly thats still too much unless you can get some +recovery from IOs.
Running Hover+Dispersion+Temp.Inv nets you 1.71/sec.
The second thing I would correct is your attack slotting.
The first 4 slots should be 1 ACC + 3 DMG, always. Just my opinion, but the only time I even consider end reduction in SO-level slotting would be a high cost attack, and then only if they are used alot in normal fights. ET perhaps.
This would be the SO slotting I would use on your ST attacks
Power Bolt 4slot 1ACC, 3DMG
Power Blast 5slot 1 ACC, 3DMG, 1Rech
Power Burst 6slot 1 ACC, 3DMG, 1Rech, 1 End
Since you dont use Hasten, you will be surprised how much smoother your attack chain will be with 1 Rech in both your single target blasts.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Quote:
Agreed. i also almost never put more than one end reducer in an attack, especially with fewer than 3 damage slotted. My fast charging attacks don't even get a recharge reducer once i've got a decent number of attacks.
|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Granted that you said your slotting isn't quite like this... you need that third damage in your attacks, IMO.
Here's why. Increasing damage slotting increases DPS and DPE at the same time. While the third slot loses something due to ED, adding a third slot is still a 17% increase over two slots in damage per attack. Personally, when using SOs or roughly equivalent common IOs, my slotting preference is 1-2 accuracy (two for fighting +1-+3 foes) 3 damage, and either 1 end reduction and/or one recharge. If I have slotted two accuracy, I choose end reduction or recharge on a power-by-power basis. (Low base recharge powers always get the end reducer, for example.) My opinion is that you should trade in Boxing, Tough and Weave for Assault, Aim and possibly Hasten. I think that taking Air Superiority is mostly poor on a Defender, but slotting it and Boxing are really not the right investment. Put those slots in your ranged blasts instead, to get them to six slots. Your melee damage modifier is even lower than your ranged one. Spend the slots where they'll do the most good. As others have suggested, I think you have traded too much offensive output for mitigation. Adding a third damag SO and Assault is going to be a 28% increase in your DPA over two SOs. Increasing your DPS with a power like Hasten won't help your DPA any, but it will improve your ability to hammer down your opponent's HP regen better in short bursts. Yes, you'll be more vulnerable. However, you'll defeat foes what I think will be noticeably faster, which means they'll have less time to beat on you. At least with Dispersion Bubble, you don't have to worry so much that what they'll land on you will be mezzes (except for sleeps). I realize that it's possible that none of those suggestions mesh with your character concept. You need to accept that the game's balance framework doesn't allow arbitrary character concepts to function effectively. If you want to build a character for high defense, I really suggest you investigate that with IOs rather than the fighting pool. I know you feel they're not part of the baseline game. However, they are a part of the game now. Don't ignore them if they can help you do what you really want. |
Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
Westley?
Your cue to go? Why is that? I don't understand.
Many:
I mentioned that the slotting isn't quite as the build showed - in reality, I've got three Damage, and one each of accuracy and endurance reduction. That's my standard slotting. I'd changed it to see if it would make a difference (just in Mids).
Schism:
The flight boosts are meant for use in Hover. However, I didn't realize Flight capped at two SOs, I thought it was three. There's a slot I can use elsewhere!
Psycho:
Well, enhanced recovery means you can maintain the damage stream, which adds up to more effective damage, just spread out a little longer. If I could have continued attacking twice as long, I might have beaten him (Catburglar, I mean).
As for my defenses, you could be right. As I say, my tendency is to look for defense before offense.
As for jamming on the attacks, playing a Tanker has taught me not to. Particularly when Knockback is part of your power set. I usually delay my next attack until the foe is getting up so I have a chance to knock him right back down.
I could drop AS, but it's just so useful. My original build didn't have Hover, but that was likewise just too useful. Thus, I kept them both (they're even in character).
Emberley:
If it's not worth your time to post, why did you post?
Uber:
I'd agree the perception is somewhat subjective, but I don't think anyone can argue that Defenders get the short end of the Endurance stick. I'd just like to see it lengthened a bit. As I say, I'm not terribly concerned about it being too slow, but I shouldn't have to stop in the middle of a standard spawn to recover, particularly when no other character I've played has to.
I'll tinker a bit with my defenses, but I'm not sure how I'll like it. As I say, I'm a Tanker player, nothing is as annoying to me as being too squishy, not even having enough damage (appearances to the contrary).
Garent:
Ya, I had been considering swapping out Total Focus (I just wanted it for coolness more than anything) or perhaps Conserve Power.
Bio:
As I say above, having more endurance means you can do more damage because you can sustain your attacks longer. It's kind of indirect, which is why I think it will be less likely to unbalance the other set combos that suffer less.
I also agree that the inherent needs a change. I'm not sure a change into what, but something that doesn't reward poor play, and is useful solo.
If I had my choice, I'd actually suggest a very slight increas in damage AND a small improvement in endurance use. Nothing drastic, just a balancing pass, as it were.
(edited to respond to new posts)
Regarding my toggles, I often don't run them all, it depends on the threat. Tough, for example, is no use against foes that don't do Smashing or Lethal damage, so off it goes.
Not related to the thread, but personal attacks in the tags are no less childish than personal attacks in the thread.
Quote:
Coolness is a good reason. It's definitely not a bad looking power, and the damage is only slightly less than that of a normal blast so it's not like you'd be gimping yourself by taking it. You're probably on to something with conserve power. Because of its long recharge, I only find it useful for helping me get through a long AV fight. Any endurance issues you may have at level 50 will be better solved with a change in slotting than with conserve power.
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Originally Posted by Ultimo_
Ya, I had been considering swapping out Total Focus (I just wanted it for coolness more than anything) or perhaps Conserve Power.
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But isn't the real issue..not what Defenders can do solo, but what they can do teamed? Nothing in the game force multiplies the way Defenders do. It seems some people are asking for Corruptor level damage, with defender level buff/debuff. Sure that might be great solo, but teamed could very well be game breaking.
Granted, No Dev has ever stated this but it seems a logical reason why defenders damage secondaries are structured the way they are.
My level 50 Dominators:
Madame Mindbender 50 Mind/Energy
Fly Agaric 50 Plant/Thorn
Nate Nitro 50 Fire/Psi
There are exceptions to this. Claws powersets, for example, have such high DPA (damage per activation time) that they had to have a more comprehensive balance formula to keep characters from being insanely efficient buzzsaws. Some powers combine other effects with their damage, such as debuffs, mezzes, or even heals. These added effects often (but not always) increase the cost of the power above the standard DSPE ratio. Some powers just have a manual fudge factor applied to keep them from being too good (or too bad). Some powers probably have errors in them.
In general, it's when you cross ATs that you see the DPE costs become different, because the AT damage modifiers are usually different even if the damage scales (and endurance costs) of the powers are the same.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA