Disappointed

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Originally Posted by MageX Ingame desing, the theory of practicality, and sex, why whales can't fly, the influence of modern woman's farts upon the ozone layer, why atoms are so small and how their ego is so big, lady gaga and her peepee. As long as there's millions in it people will dedicate most of their life to it. They already dedicated years for seedless fruit and a comercial verion of the astronaut pen, cause pencils just weren't enough. [/off topic]

...it amazes me how you, with that mindset, play a video game.

... which is one of the greatest inventions in history...

... which must have taken all of, oh, an hour, since the commercial version of the astronaut pen is... the astronaut pen, except plasticked to a card so there's somewhere for the UPC...

That's called progress. It's sort of one of the cornerstones of civilization.

One day I'll be president. Video games make time go faster.

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Originally Posted by MageX One day I'll be president. Video games make time go faster.

Even the person whose argument you were defending is against your earlier point. xD

That would be comparable to saying that while choreography *might* be an artform, someday perhaps, running and jumping certainly is not, so dance is not really an artform. It contains some nice stuff that could be art, but its not an artform itself.

Your definition of art seems to exclude an awful lot of art, not just videogames. If the Mona Lisa has a message, I've never heard what it was supposed to be. I don't know what the moral to Piano Concerto Number 24 is supposed to be (clarinets always win in the end?)

Most art doesn't actually have a message as you are defining "message." Most art is designed to evoke. Many games are unquestionably evocative of an experience. A painting of the grand canyon is art even if the sole goal of the painter was to give you a sense of what it was like for the artist to be there. City of Heroes, by that definition, unambiguously is designed to evoke a sense of being in the fictional environment its based around. While that is not sufficient to be good art it satisfies the minimum requirements for being art, which by extension proves game design are an artform. It doesn't matter if there exists other games that are not an artform by definition. It only matters if *a* game exists that is an artistic creation for game design itself to be an art form.

I don't consider the question of whether something is an artform or not to be a question of consensus or subjective opinion. I believe the necessary and sufficient requirements for something to be an artform are:

1. It has a definable element of craftsmanship (Art must have an element of deliberateness in its construction).
2. It has avenues for expression by the artist (whether they are used or not).

Anything that satisfies those two requirements is an artform by defintion, in the sense that anything that satisfies those two requirements can be used by artists to create works of art. And that is ultimately what an "artform" is: a form of art.

Can you use game design to make art? If so, its an artform. Are all games instances of art? Not necessarily, but that specific question comes down to intent, and the benefit of the doubt rests with the creators. If the dev team of CoX say they are artists, then CoX is a work of art. If the dev team of CoX says they are not artists, then CoX isn't a work of art.


One last thing: games and game design cannot "approach" becoming an artform. There's no such thing as "nearly an artform." Being an artform is a binary property. Something is an artform if its a form of art, otherwise its not. Its possible for something to approach general acknowledgement of being an artform, but that's a completely different thing.

The topic wasn't started on that premise. But on the presentation alone and what great things will bring. I dont see anything great and impressive on what has been announced to be in the expansionset other than Praetoria and the morality system.

That's a little like saying you don't see anything great and impressive about a pizza other than the crust and the cheese. Not only can you not see anything that might be under the cheese, those are likely to be the two most important parts.

It took us 436 posts and that maddening "open mic at the coffee shop" what-is-art-man beatnik rap just to get to this? I feel like I should be waving away clove cigarette smoke and wishing it was legal to beat art students about the head and shoulders with folding chairs.

Performance art, man. They do stuff like that in WWE all the ti--WHUD!

*knocked unconscious by the collision of his head with a folding chair*

Originally Posted by Nethergoat it's NEVER too late to pad your /ignore list!

If some one is opinionated it's an artist, and I speak as one. Artists tend to question whether some other "art" should be considered an art at all simply because they either are so self centered that they think their art is the only true art, or because they feel that as an artist they have the ultimate say on what art forms they can approve as true art forms.

I stand in interesting grounds because I'm both, an artist (as a hobby) and a computer programmer (for a living.) My mother was a fashion designer and my father a car mechanic. I guess I had two very opposite viewpoints of the world handed down to me. I sometimes argue the topic with myself but ultimately both my opinons always end up agreeing.

I consider video games to be art forms, but I'll grant you that just as with commercial movies/books/anyartformyoucanthinkoff there is a lot of stuff that can't be considered an art form at all. I find it similar to movies in that they tend to mix many art forms into a composed art form, but unlike movies I find there are additional layers that can exist in games that don't exist in movies (like code writing.)

Oh and you asked earlier, there is a British Academy Video Games Awards that has been running since 2003, and I know there are others just don't have much time to look for them right now.

A lot of those things are even more important to me, especially the expanded gameplay and mission types. So in a sense I can't really get too angry at the OP. Everyone's mileage varies.

I actually agree with this on the same plane of thinking where i would argue not all movies are art either. But unfortunately its a subjective process.

Like i can watch Transformers and i dont care how much thought or design were put into it, i cant see a flaming turd like that movie as art. However a movie like star wars or a tv show like star trek, i could totally see justifiable as being art. They changed how people saw scifi, they changed the way movies were made, and even if they borrowed from other sources, IMO they are art.

Games are the same way, i can see something like "The Force Unleashed" or KOTOR and say its art, its intended to pull in the player and inspire choices, and consequences and to imerse someone in an experience. Where i see something like Halo where its basicly linear and shoot and duck and say as nice and well polished as the games are, they really dont qualify to me as art. They are just a shooter and do nothing new, and invoke no emotional response in me what so ever.

So CO is out of the running then?

Except a lust for blood, and the desire to kill and kill again?

I think you missed the part where your posts on the subject are full of hypocritical tripe.

But hey, feel free to believe that you are the only "one, true judge" of what is and is not art. And while you're at it, all of those people that disagree with you must be wrong, because only those who agree with you are right, and so it's not you that's wrong - no, never that - it must be the rest of the planet.

I'll feel free to ignore you as either completely ignorant, stupid, or arrogant beyond belief.

Originally Posted by PleaseRecycle it has gone from unconscionable to downright appalling that we have no way of measuring our characters' wetness.

Originally Posted by Brillig It's hard to beat the entertainment value of Whackjob Wednesdays.

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Originally Posted by Slashman Ok...I'm not quite sure what else could be added here with regards to art and artforms. So I'll just skip all that and get back to the topic at hand. I don't think its a crime for someone to say they are disappointed by what was announced at Hero-Con. In a sense I was disappointed. Maybe not so much by what they announced, because I love Dual Pistols and I think I'll love Demon Summoning along with the graphics upgrade. I was disappointed by not knowing more. I know marketing is keeping a tight reign on things and that some of that is also likely due to certain things not being nailed down as final etc. Still, I'd like to know what we're getting beyond 1 - 20 levels of content and side switching. I think I may feel much less disappointed because I like the stuff they have announced, but I'm hopeful for much more. I think this part of the OP's post is what I felt like I most agree with. A lot of those things are even more important to me, especially the expanded gameplay and mission types. So in a sense I can't really get too angry at the OP. Everyone's mileage varies.

It's not a crime to be disappointed by GR. But it is unfair to judge it so early and cry doom.

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Originally Posted by QuiJon I actually agree with this on the same plane of thinking where i would argue not all movies are art either. But unfortunately its a subjective process. Like i can watch Transformers and i dont care how much thought or design were put into it, i cant see a flaming turd like that movie as art. However a movie like star wars or a tv show like star trek, i could totally see justifiable as being art. They changed how people saw scifi, they changed the way movies were made, and even if they borrowed from other sources, IMO they are art. Games are the same way, i can see something like "The Force Unleashed" or KOTOR and say its art, its intended to pull in the player and inspire choices, and consequences and to imerse someone in an experience. Where i see something like Halo where its basicly linear and shoot and duck and say as nice and well polished as the games are, they really dont qualify to me as art. They are just a shooter and do nothing new, and invoke no emotional response in me what so ever.

Again. You're confusing whether or not something is an art with whether or not you like the art.

As I said, sadly, this is a VERY common misconception.

It doesn't matter that you think Transformers was terrible. A whole lot of people think it was great. Transformers, as a movie, is an art. It maybe a terrible art in your mind, and mine, but it's a fantastic piece of art in someone else's. For something to be considered art, it doesn't have to be 'good'.

Same goes for Halo. Every single person on the team of developers who contributed to Halo's visuals, story line, and game atmosphere is an artist. Whether or not they're good artists has nothing to do with Halo's classification as an art.

Doesn't this same logic dictate that it is also unfair to judge it so early and cry praise?

No. I can't agree with that. I play in a band, I write songs for that band. My songs are not messages that are "always very important." Does it mean that songwriting is not art or just when I write a song where the words and the melody don't convey some deeper comment on the human condition? There is a difference between 'art' and 'good art.'

My poetry is a different beast. Every poem comes with some personal emotional payload. Does that difference negate my songwriting?

Do you seriously think that what BaBs does is 'science?' Do you see no beauty in the movement of the toons and npcs? Isn't BaBs trying to create something wonderous? Isn't that ART?! Doesn't the very idea of a game which essentially revolves around a theme of good vs. evil speak to the some degree about the human condition?

Have you never looked at the game and felt a surge of emotion? Felt sadness or happiness change in you based on something within it? (and I'm not talking about being angry at a client crash or some other flaw.) Have you never been moved by it? I have. It counts as art to me for that reason alone.

I just had to respond to this: Art forms have existed in many forms through out time and the complete package of video games has many art forms melded together to create the over all art form.

there is:
Illustration - textures, environment, effects

Lighting -dark tunnels in a cave, bright sunny day at the beach, dark clouds and an over looming shadow of the villain.

Music - environmental sounds, sound effects for movement, weapon fire, interaction sounds such as a computer beep

Animation - encompasses most aspects of cinematography, story boarding, scripting, framing, blocking, props, etc. this also often is the stage that illustration and lighting are integrated even if its just to frame things out and make sure the project is moving in the right direction. In the old days street performers would entertain crowds with puppets, something that has evolved today with digital representations but there are still puppet masters behind every animators computer.

In short, I personally believe that video games ARE an art form in such a way that not 1 artist but many collaborate with a like mind to present many art forms in one package.

yes there are plenty of games that have poor quality in many and some times all areas of art with in a video game but the quality does not change the fact that it still is art. they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder. a prime example is a childs drawing or glued macaroni art. it may not be worth much if any to most people but if it was from your child it would be hanging proudly from your fridge.

This is utter nonsense, not to put too fine a point on it. Since when is the definition of art "conveys message?" The fact that critics tend to be able to spot hidden meaning in places even the original creator never suspected there was any aside, a large portion of so-called "art" is commissions done for profit. How many great paintings are just portraits of noblemen? How much music is commercial garbage made to public expectation, rather than any artistic initiative? This is the train of thought which leads to pompous mediocrity cleaning out all the Academy's Oscars via cheap, overbearing drama and Oscar bait. This notion that ART!!! is somehow this majestic, mysterious, almost divine substance which should shine on its own merits is just silly. Moreover, such a distinction between what is art and what isn't art is patently pointless. A work's value is a question of its own merits, not a question of semantics.

And, really, even if we go with the "conveys message" definition of art, to claim games don't is short-sighted in the extreme, something I'd attribute to someone who's never played games before, were it not said by a person on a game's message board. Certainly by THAT definition, not all games count. Things like Doom, Dangerous Dave or Jet Pack certainly don't convey a message, not unless you think far harder than you're supposed to and invent it, but there are plenty of games that do. The Silent Hill games, confusing a mess as they may be, are deeply rooted in symbolism and the examination of the human psyche. The Resident Evil games typically deal with the folly of human greed and arrogance. The Prince of Persia games, though more amusing than deep, still deal with the questions of responsibility, choice and consequences, the next-gen Prince of Persia taking it to a brand new level. Even Oni, Bungie's "last game before Halo" deals with the consequences of irresponsible industrialization and the soulless world it can create.

Even if you measure purely by virtue of message conveyed, games still deliver. And I don't really want to hear an argument about how they're not supposed to and it's just a commercial drive. The distinction between art for art's sake and art for a living shouldn't exist, and artists who dare to want to be paid for their work, or indeed make work they know they'll be paid for, shouldn't be looked down on.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Thank you very much.

Judge it when it is out. I've asked questions; I'm now waiting to see what the answers are.