Why do HEATs feel like fail?
By
Afterimage,
Posted on: 2009-10-10 13:43 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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It's cool, man, you tried your best. When people can't agree on what constitutes good design, bringing in various definitions encompassing mechanical efficiency, play experience, peak performance, worst-case performance, associated content, associated lore, conceptual concerns, and art design, any discussion is going to be a lot of sound and fury, signifying nothing.|
Originally Posted by LordXenite
*sigh*
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(My personal assessment: VEATs win on mechanical efficiency and average performance; HEATs win on peak performance and amount of associated content; and the rest varies according to the tastes of the player.)
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
I understand both sides of this issue, and I think everyone should be able to play the way they want. Personally though, I side with the HEATs. Not only can Khelds be build in many different ways but it is the player directly that makes the Kheld successful. My warshade has 2 builds, tri-form and human. Both play completely different but are both powerful. The tri-form is stronger in most cases, but not always what I feel like playing at the moment. My PB is only 38, but I'm already planning a human/dwarf and a tr-form build for him as well.
Like most other Kheld lovers in this thread, I find the Veats to be boring as heck. Widows are by far the worst. Randomly mashing the 1-5 keys and winning every battle with ease simply is not fun to me. I just don't find anything fun about playing a game you can almost never lose, no matter how badly you play. The only Veat I still play is my bane. I think banes are the most balanced veat and have more variety in play style than the others. Crabs and fortunata's are ok, but simply overpowered. Instead of buffing banes (that has been suggested over and over again) I think the other 3 could use a well placed smack with the nerf bat.
Veats need much better story too. Your not a destined one, you are a destined one, we don't know if your a destined one, maybe you are a destined one, now lets go beat up statesman just because we feel like it, the end. The entire 50 level arc boils down to this. The devs have stated for years that "Epic" refers to the long in depth storyline attached to the character and then they give us that?! *sigh*
Anyways, enough Veat-bashing in a thread about Heats. Take it how you like it, but in my opinion, Heats are anything BUT fail.
*edit* In response to Memphis Bill's post I do not use any keybinds for my Khelds. Ask Lord Xenite if my performance suffers because of it. -Nether Rain
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We can have as many trays as we want now on the screen at all times, the need for tray-swapping is pretty much dead.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Kheldians are the only form shifters. Kheldians are the only AT that loses performance when not using tray swapping keybinds. Kheldians are the only AT that benefits from tray swapping keybinds. Players may use the tray swapping because they don't want 3 trays on their screen, but they wouldn't become slower and thus weaker by not using them.
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Nor have I ever bothered with keybinds beyond the default ones and never have I been accused of being slower than those who swear by them. Just because you're slow without them doesn't mean that everyone is.
And more than 2 trays is an issue anyways? How damn small is your monitor?
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>.>|
Originally Posted by Lazarus
And more than 2 trays is an issue anyways? How damn small is your monitor?
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I have 5 trays open on all my characters.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
-stands back-
Woh....really didn't expect this...
Although I shouldn't actually be surprised.
On-Topic, the original point is now moot. Some people enjoy EATs, some don't (either type). I have finally reached the turning point for my PB, and can start to enjoy her, and may well roll a Warshade in future (altitis I tell ye! 
)
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Easy solution (well, not easy, but sort of simple), give us a branching PPD HEAT (similar to the VEATS) wherein one of the branches is the Awakened Division. And then come up with some sort of VEAT that's similar to the Kheldians.
Branching Paragon Police Department Epic Archetype, please!
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I think that wouldn't be a bad idea, the more power-sets and ATs, the merrier (for both sides, obviously). I'd love a CoT shape-shifting AT on the red-side where you shift from Fire-Demon to CoT-Mage to Ghost.
Originally Posted by Cynical_Gamer
Easy solution (well, not easy, but sort of simple), give us a branching PPD HEAT (similar to the VEATS) wherein one of the branches is the Awakened Division. And then come up with some sort of VEAT that's similar to the Kheldians.
Thread-win DING DING DING! we can all /thread-quit now Quote:
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
On-Topic, the original point is now moot. Some people enjoy EATs, some don't (either type). I have finally reached the turning point for my PB, and can start to enjoy her, and may well roll a Warshade in future (altitis I tell ye!
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I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Someday, perhaps, the devs will give us a pair of Truly Epic ATs (one for each side) to play with, and those who have Truly Epic ATs and those who play with those who have Truly Epic ATs will appreciate and enjoy them, and we will all be happy with these Truly Epic ATs.
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So you want everyone to have TEATs?(works better spoken)
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Originally Posted by Flarstux
Someday, perhaps, the devs will give us a pair of Truly Epic ATs (one for each side) to play with, and those who have Truly Epic ATs and those who play with those who have Truly Epic ATs will appreciate and enjoy them, and we will all be happy with these Truly Epic ATs.
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Too many alts to list.
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Oh how I wish that I had room in my sig for that. |
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
VEATs are a bar of gold - take any piece, and you have gold.
HEATs are a cow pie with a diamond in it - unless you know what you're looking for, you're going to get poo. |
My experience is such
Made a Warshade :deleted
Made a Peacebringer: Banished to Virtue
Made another Peacebringer: Languishing on Freedom
Made another Warshade: currently at 35 Yay me.
Khelds are just not my cup of tea, but I WILL get one to 50!
Veats:
Made a crab: Awkward at first, and I disliked the Rifle animations. Stuck with it, because it became hella fun. 50
I Made a Bane, and played it like a broadsword Stalker. Loved the character until BAB showed me the folly of my ways by beating the snot out of him over and over and over again. I Stuck with it, because the character is hella fun. 50
Made a Widow, Love it. My first 50 VEAT.
Added second build on Crab. Is now a Crab or Bane
Added scond build on Bane. Is now a Bane or Huntsman
Working on Fortunata build for my Widow.
Once my Warshade hits 50, it will probably get played once in a purple moon like my Fire/devices and Ill/Storm. It is highly doubtful that I will take a Peacebringer to 50.
Story wise, Khelds have the edge. They have a story that makes sense whereas the Soldier's story is a series of paper missions.
Powers and playability wise, I would play a VEAT over a Kheld any day of the week.
Co-op Team wise, I would pick a VEAT over a Kheld unless I knew that the VEAT player was a dipstick.
"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
My 2 inf..
Khelds need to have great binds to work well. I started up 2 pb's and a ws and deleted them cause I couldnt make them dance very well. This led to it being a major drag to play them and caused their delete. Then a sg member gave me his binds and now I have a ws who is the ultimate tank mage. No other toon in the game can self max resistance and dmg. Not to mention self heal, rez and have pets. I highly recomend getting some great binds to help you out before saying they fail. For instance i have 1 button for each form that will shift my trays around bringing up the forms powers. In addition human form also toggles on his shields. I am still working out a budget to purple him out, he is that much fun.
good luck to ya,
Gitch
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I've always wanted to be able to have Longbow as the hero epic class and have them make Kheldians a normal AT heroside. I love Kheldians and Widows equally and won't say one is better than the other. Personally I think the arguement that people are having in this topic is completely foolish because its a matter of personal opinion and some people can't seem to realize that.|
Originally Posted by Cynical_Gamer
Easy solution (well, not easy, but sort of simple), give us a branching PPD HEAT (similar to the VEATS) wherein one of the branches is the Awakened Division. And then come up with some sort of VEAT that's similar to the Kheldians.
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Anyways, your idea would be fun.
"People love to talk, but hate to listen." Alice Duer Miller, American Author (1874-1942)
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Your 2 inf is based on the idea that a person has to take forms and use binds to have them work well and that is not true. My human Peacebringer works well for any situation and doesn't need binds at all. As someone pointed out recently, with the introduction of more power trays you do not need to have binds if you are one of the people that chooses to use forms.
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Originally Posted by Gitch
My 2 inf..
Khelds need to have great binds to work well. I started up 2 pb's and a ws and deleted them cause I couldnt make them dance very well. This led to it being a major drag to play them and caused their delete. Then a sg member gave me his binds and now I have a ws who is the ultimate tank mage. No other toon in the game can self max resistance and dmg. Not to mention self heal, rez and have pets. I highly recomend getting some great binds to help you out before saying they fail. For instance i have 1 button for each form that will shift my trays around bringing up the forms powers. In addition human form also toggles on his shields. I am still working out a budget to purple him out, he is that much fun. |
"People love to talk, but hate to listen." Alice Duer Miller, American Author (1874-1942)
My how Kheld threads can turn into Sh!tstorms.
My stance on Kheld design: it could have been better, especially shapeshifting. I agree with some that the Shapeshifting mechanics feels clunky (If they don't to you, fine, but they do to me). Losing access to so many powers when shifted, Slot Starvation, looking to Macros and Binds to make Shifting more smooth... Were I the boss I'd have sent the designer back to the design table.
The Shapeshifting is one of reasons that I, like BZB, prefer Human-only (I also don't like the way the forms look, but that's a whole 'nuther issue).
That said, my PB is, by far, my favorite and most played AT, and I've IOd and Accoladed her to the gills. Luckily, Khelds are diverse enough that I can find the template I want to play and leave off what I find unfun and/or badly designed.
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See, I've had the exact opposite reaction to VEATs... I play and play and still can't seem to see why they are any good at all. They might as well be a stalker (Night Widow at any rate) from the way they feel. I ultimately quit my NW because I just didn't like it anymore. There was no different feel to it. There was nothing that really stood out in my experience.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Well....I didn't like to say it, but...
VEATs, especially in pairs or more, do feel so...well...Epic? |
HEATs from the very start caught my interest. From anyone knowledgeable in WoW's Druid (more so post TBC), Khelds are very much like them in the playstyle. I LOVE that. And personally I would love to see some kind of shapeshifting powerset of it's own.
I loved my Shade from the first level all the way through 50 and slotting it up.
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| On the Hero Challenge AT's... if you've decided to go Tank and work on damage resistances / defense... you'll still be able to pick up ranged powers and status effects or low control. There's never a really clear point to what you're going to be. |
I'm a firm believer in, if you stay in 1 form too long on a shade you are doing something wrong.
P.S. Looknig to maybe try a Crab Spider out to see if that changes my opinion of VEATs... but I do so hate lvls 1-15.
I do disagree most heavily with people who say you need bind on Triforms.
I have four trays. Human form stuff on top, then Nova and powers, then Dwarf and powers, then shields, sprint, jump pack and rest on the bottom as normal. Works fine for me
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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The trick with SoA's is to go for the combo killer.|
Originally Posted by Sunpulse
P.S. Looknig to maybe try a Crab Spider out to see if that changes my opinion of VEATs... but I do so hate lvls 1-15. |
Lvl 1 - Pummel. It stuns SO much its fantastic, same damage as Single shot and quicker to fire.
Lvl 2 - Burst. It hits hard, its good.
Lvl 6 - Wide Area web nade. The first combo move.
Lvl 8 - Heavy Burst. The second part of the combo for now, but then moved to third.
lvl 10 - Maneuvers. Defense. Nuff said.
lvl 12 - Venom grenade. The true second part of the combo, used on web naded mobs. -Res
Lvl 16 - Frag Grenade. The finisher. If it hasnt been shot to shreds it gets fragged into next week. Anything that survives the Combo then gets picked off by Burst or pummelled into the dirt.
Like a slightly more aggresive AR/Traps blaster, really. With more armour and defense.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Yes, I get the whole "multiple-role" thing. I've touched on that subject before elsewhere. (warning, really whiny and emo link). However, the original poster was asking if anybody ever felt burn-out on their avatars. I was listing reasons that had lead to my own burnout on Kheldians, and reasons from other people that I've played with over the years.
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That's the point. There isn't supposed to be 1 clear goal for an AT that's built to be able to 'swap' between roles. I'm a firm believer in, if you stay in 1 form too long on a shade you are doing something wrong. |
PPD should be the next HEAT, though the awakened branch would be pretty damn redundant as they don't do anything that a regular PB can't.
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Where's our Blood of the Black Stream already, dammit!
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Originally Posted by LordXenite
I think that wouldn't be a bad idea, the more power-sets and ATs, the merrier (for both sides, obviously). I'd love a CoT shape-shifting AT on the red-side where you shift from Fire-Demon to CoT-Mage to Ghost.
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Bingo!|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
There is no mathematical expression of fun.
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Well... maybe 99.99%.
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I'm still a fairly new player with just a PB at 25th level (and a 45 MM bots/traps villianside on the way to 50 to earn a VEAT). How do you switch your active tray amongst those four trays quickly without a key bind?|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I do disagree most heavily with people who say you need bind on Triforms.
I have four trays. Human form stuff on top, then Nova and powers, then Dwarf and powers, then shields, sprint, jump pack and rest on the bottom as normal. Works fine for me |
I read Papa's tri-form PB guide and a few bind guides to go with it and, so far, I've found it very convenient to hit a single key to switch forms and activate their associated trays. Granted, it takes a while to learn and get used to, and I'm open to any suggestions on how to more quickly switch and apply the various form human/squid/dwarf powers, each of which take up almost a tray each, two for human form.
Currently, I have human form set up in trays 1 & 2 (with odd/temporary powers like Pocket D teleport in tray 3), and squid/dwarf powers separately in key-bind activated trays 8 & 9. I'm open for ideas... is there a better/quicker way to arrange this?
There's a lot of ways to do it, really. I DO like having a bind to switch forms and trays, but you could just put your form powers in a separate tray from your human powers. Before I switched to using binds, I just got used to hitting alt + whatever number I needed for form powers.
Pretty much have to do that all the time with my other heroes, so I didn't notice it much (anything beyond the number 5-6 keys are hard for me to reach, and it's easier to hit alt + one of the lower numbers... some for ctrl +).
You can also go with clicks if that flies better for you: it's even easier to do this with how many trays we can have out.
Binds are great, but it can hang you up if you didn't formshift (because you were still activating a power). Kind of have to pay attention no matter what.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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Look on the tray bar for a little + sign.|
Originally Posted by perwira
I'm still a fairly new player with just a PB at 25th level (and a 45 MM bots/traps villianside on the way to 50 to earn a VEAT). How do you switch your active tray amongst those four trays quickly without a key bind?
I read Papa's tri-form PB guide and a few bind guides to go with it and, so far, I've found it very convenient to hit a single key to switch forms and activate their associated trays. Granted, it takes a while to learn and get used to, and I'm open to any suggestions on how to more quickly switch and apply the various form human/squid/dwarf powers, each of which take up almost a tray each, two for human form. Currently, I have human form set up in trays 1 & 2 (with odd/temporary powers like Pocket D teleport in tray 3), and squid/dwarf powers separately in key-bind activated trays 8 & 9. I'm open for ideas... is there a better/quicker way to arrange this? |
That will pop up a whole new tray for you. I tend to make that number 4, and jam it under the existing three in the bottom corner.
Voila. Four trays, zilch keybinds ^^
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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And you have no apparent knowledge of game design.
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
You have a very strange definition of "entertainment".
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Kheldians using forms MAY FIND they prefer using tray swapping keybinds. Many do. Others may choose to have powers arranged in different fashions - I could probably fit the various form powers on so they're always visible, but I don't, or use a combination of macros, or some other mechanic. Therefore, Khelds do NOT lose performance when not using tray swapping keybinds.
Example: I could, completely ignoring the tray swapping, assign numpad 7-8-9-5 (an inverted T) to my Nova attacks, shift-click for my Dwarf teleport, and use 1-2-3-4-6 for my Dwarf attacks, heal, and taunt. No tray swapping needed. Is my Kheld now less powerful? I'm not using tray swapping keybinds. Have I lost DPS? Have I lost resistance? Are my attacks slower?
ALso, human only Kheldians have no use for tray swapping keybinds.
Last, I have non-Kheld characters who can use "tray swapping keybinds" as well - such as to easily move my buffs versus my attacks within easy reach, depending on teaming situation (which do I want immediate, number key access to?) Doing so on my Controller or Defender makes them benefit from tray swapping keybinds.