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(*thud*)
That's what I call "Uber luck!" -
How I would have answered this question would have depended on when I was asked.
When I first started playing this game almost a year ago, 1m inf seemed like quite a lot and I was ecstatic when I made my first 3m inf sale. Over time, though, as my first characters rose up in level and I learned how the market and IO system worked, I set my sights higher. And even after almost a year, I am still setting my sights higher. What I've learned in a year is that it's not so much a question of how "rich" or how much inf a character has as it is how effective they are, with much of the inf they earned invested into their builds. A character's worth in an invested build may far exceed what inf they have in hand.
I still have only seven characters, all of them active, both in play and in the market. As such, their wealth is constantly increasing. At certain stages of their careers, I'll invest some of that wealth into more expensive and more effective IO sets. Typically they will start with cheaply-acquired franken-slots and 4-sets that I know will eventually be replaced with more advanced full sets and specialized IO's and I plan their power selections, slotting and IO set purchases accordingly. As such, much of my characters' wealth is invested in the characters themselves, with the surplus inf being invested and accumulated for an envisioned purpose.
Current wealth figures (actual inf, plus IO/recipe/salvage stock and open bids):
Defender 50: 2.5 billion, with low bids on 2 purple sets, partially acquired
Scrapper 50: 2.0 billion, with low bids on 2 purple sets, partially acquired
Mastermind 45: 1.2 billion, with no major bids, but expect to bid soon for level 50 respec build
Corrupter 43: 1.2 billion, with no major bids, but expect to bid soon for level 50 respec build
Corrupter 37: 1.4 billion, with no major bids
Peacebringer 26: 220 million, to invest in future IO sets
Controller 26: 180 million, to invest in future IO sets
Total, 7 characters, after almost one year of play: 8.7 billion in ready inf.
I'm not sure what the market worth of their current builds are (I'm too lazy to count it all up), but I would estimate that roughly 2-3 billion has already been invested into their existing builds. That would make the total 'net worth' of these seven characters over 10 billion inf.
My basic philosophy is that inf not used or not planned for use is inf wasted. A 2 billion inf stat is just that - a resource stat. What matters is how it is applied to improve a character's effectiveness. -
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Wow, it took a while to read through this thread. I'm playing a 30+ PB and still thinking on how to build her in future levels along tri-form lines. As a relative PB beginner (and even game player at just under a year), I find the discussion here quite interesting.
From what I've read and experienced so far, PB's can be built quite a number of different ways with different foci using human-only or a bi- or tri-build. If I was limited to a bi-build I'd almost certainly go with the Nova form rather than the Dwarf form. Perhaps this observation alone gives an idea where the PB's weaknesses lie.
Face it. PB's can be a clunky AT to play, so much so that macros and/or binds are a necessity. At the very least, power trays have to be switched along with the forms. The delays in shape-changes takes a lot away. As mentioned earlier, the human-form build-up times are partially (and significantly) lost in the delay. So, first, smoother transitions between forms without activation delays would be nice.
A number of suggestions were made about modifying Nova power effects, including -DamRes instead of -Def (wouldn't -Regen be nice!), along with the potentially mitigatory benefits of KB. As it is, the Nova form, with a consistent attack chain combining AOE with single target attacks coming straight out of the box at level 6, is very nice. And slotted up as the levels go up, a PB Nova can dish out some highly reliable (95% hit prob) and serious damage while debuffing the enemy for the party to strike as well. Also, inherent flight gives the Nova form the additional ability to maneuver and place the KB's effectively. Damage is solid, although I agree with those who have mentioned that it'd be nicer to focus on one damage type instead of two versus enemies' damage resistance. Given the nature of the PB's attacks, though, with its KB's and visuals, I wouldn't expect the devs to change the dual energy/smashing effects of the Nova long-range blasts.
Where I see more of a problem instead is the Dwarf form. Sure, it's defensive as heck, mez defense, +HP, +taunt, and all, but the problem is, it still doesn't deliver. Almost every time I've gone into Dwarf form, eventually the enemy would deliver more HP damage on me than I on them, contrary to what I have experienced with the Nova form. I've experimented a lot with this and almost every time come up short with the Dwarf or Dwarf/human pair than I have with the Nova or Nova/human pair. The Dwarf attacks look and sound cool, but... the DPS is so weak that to take out a large group of enemies a PB will almost certainly have to jump back into human and/or Nova form (perhaps unless they are playing the group role of a single tank, something I've never done). Human form itself can be scary good with the best of the melee attacks, but even with shields can be vulnerable in the thick of battle.
It takes a fair amount of practice to quickly switch between these three forms and play them smoothly. (A tip of the hat to you PB guide writers for all of your suggestions on how to do this.) The discussion so far in this thread has piqued my interest and curiosity, as well as giving me a few new ideas about how to play and slot a peacebringer. I enjoy playing her a lot, as difficult as she can be to play. -
(ed.) Reposted original post in different discussion thread.
Thanks for your guides! They've been very helpful. -
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Already ongoing discussion of same here: http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...196861&page=10
(Niviene's post is the third one on this page.) -
Quote:Dispari, I agree. I enjoy reading the comments I get, either way. Especially as a novice poster in these forums, the comments are both encouraging and informative. And some of it has been fun (scapperlock lore abound!).So can we just have comments disabled but still have the system show us which posts got the rep? It's totally pointless otherwise. It's like telling you your overall grade on a test but not letting you know what you got wrong or right. You can't learn or improve if you don't know why you got what you got.
I don't know if this is a feasible technical solution or not, but perhaps doing away with neg rep entirely while keeping positive rep will reduce the number of comments that cross the forum guidelines. This would be nice to have, although it seems that the forum software likely does not provide for exclusively removing neg rep and comment while keeping and displaying positive rep. -
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Yeah, I appreciate the positive comments I've gotten so far during some interesting game discussions, and I'll miss reading future positive comments. And given the nature of the few negative rep comments I got, they were best voluntarily ignored anyway, although I called one of them out.
I understand the mods' position in that it gives less cause for them to have to intervene due to rep comments made in violation of the forum guidelines. -
Quote:Niviene: The rep system is still very much in play we just tweaked it a bit.I'm assuming this one:
Rep is a Game. A really, really bad game.
Yup, that figures, although I was kind of surprised to see that the USER CP suddenly didn't show what it did before. Probably not a bad idea for both the players and the forum mods.
Thanks for the link. -
Heck, I'm still playing just seven characters rolled over almost a year, with 2 at 50, 3 in the mid 40's, 2 in the upper 20's, and I love playing all of them. And while there are many more archetypes/power-sets to still to try out, I'm still learning how to best play the magnificent seven I already have. Not a boring moment, no sirree!
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Quote:The real market size is less than the theoretical total number of character transaction slots, being the total number of slots currently being utilized in the market. I imagine some players do not utilize all, if any, of their market slots apart from selling drops and even less so on their more dormant characters. I doubt it's so much as whether they have fewer or more slots per character as it is whether they use them. If player population figures and the current number of market transactions are any indication, I would guess that the vast majority of available market transaction slots on all player characters as a whole are inactive.Something else that no one has yet pointed out directly but ties into Uberguy's earlier post.
The market is entirely player operated. There is no bid or offer in existance that is not posted by a player...
This means that the size of the market is entirely limited by the number of total transaction slots available. Per capita may be the same (caveat to follow) but over all goods are not in large enough supply.Many red side toons may have fewer total transaction slots than their blue side equivalents due to this and may even be made worse by the apathy that may be triggered by this. -
You both win. Thanks you two and everyone else here for your thoughtful replies to the questions and issues I raised with merging the markets, something I originally supported (and still support, even if I sarcastically said in one post that I didn't support it based on how it was proposed to be done). I do use and play the market on both sides extensively and share your observations, as well.
So, the crux of it is that the red-side population (who use the BM) is too small to support the BM? If the red-side player/character population using the BM was the same size as or larger than the blue-side population using WW, merging of the markets wouldn't be as necessary? I can certainly see how there is a critical mass necessary to make the markets work, without which they are all but useless. -
Quote:The gist of the overwhelming support in this forum for a merged market, then, seems to be the resulting increased player/character base using the merged market as opposed to a split (red-side/blue-side) player/character base using separate markets. It has less to do with functionality than it does the increased size of the player/character base using it. As a player, I understand why this is the case and I also understand how a merged market might help the supply situation for items that are more rarely available on one side than on the other.An ATM in Mogadishu is not as functional as an ATM in mid-Manhattan even if they both have the same capabilities. The Mogadishu one will do a hell of a lot less business.
There have been cases where a reasonable bid fills in a couple days blueside and takes more than a week redside. The one I remember, I happened to be buying low-30s Thunderstrikes (after a 2XP weekend- don't remember if it was LAST 2XP though) both blue and redside. I clearly remember seeing, redside, that on one of them the last transaction was one of mine, and it was five days ago. (I end bids with 908.) I already had all my blueside Thunderstrikes, and I'd maybe resold some extras.
This was recent [last 3 months maybe]- but I've experienced variations of "On blueside, I'd have it by now" since the market opened. Redside has always been hollow- you get it at level 50 or you don't get it any time soon.
Oh, here's another example: I've started doing some generic crafting redside. Last night, at one point, between level 30,35, and 40 there were three [3] EndMods for sale. Two level 30, one level 35, and zero level 40. How's that "supply and demand" working out for you?
I didn't mean to be argumentative, but as I mentioned earlier, I wanted to play devil's advocate to clarify why the markets should be merged, how it would improve game play, and how it would be done without drastic impact on player characters' already existing holdings and positions. These are issues that the devs would have to address and prioritize before deciding to move forward with all else that they are working on. -
Quote:Sorry, I don't get it. They operate with the same functionality, the only difference is the player/character base using them.So long as one market is decidedly inferior to the other as an actual tool, I will continue to consider this opinion wrongheaded. Which is "better" is not simply a matter of opinion. One is qualitatively inferior as a utility. The "flavor" is a matter of opinion. The functionality is not.
Can you explain how one is functionally different than the other? Is it really? -
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Quote:Ok, that does it. Anytime someone suggests that the devs 'tell us' one thing and then do the opposite thing 'fait accompli' is the time to think otherwise.As a player I believe that the best way for the devs to proceed would be to "tell us" that a merger isn't happening and then hand us a merged market as a fait accompli.
At this point, I support the position that the devs do *not* merge the market.
Both markets have a flavor of their own and it's good to see both flavors in play rather than them being homogenized into mush. Swirled together, yet distinctly apart, chocolate and vanilla. -
Quote:Whew, indeed! Thanks a lot for your informative insights into both of the games I asked about. From all you posted, LotR sounds most like what I'd like to play. I've read all of Tolkien at least several times over and I love his lore. I think I'd like the game system as you described it. The D&D online game (established from v3.5[?] rules) also sounds fun, although it has its limitations. I GM'd a few custom campaigns and dungeon sets with the basic Gygax rules back in '75 and still have the maps and index cards for all of it - hundreds of hours of careful game and story design to satisfy the players, all friends.I hope this sufficiently answers the questions, at least in regards to these two MMOs *whew*.
I appreciate your taking the time to take each of the criteria I suggested and lay it all out for both games based on your experience. Good post, and thanks again. -
Quote:Good point about inf either side not being of the same worth over time. If anything, it seems that influence and infamy has declined in purchasing power over time. Part of it comes from the readier availability for player characters to earn increased influence and drops through new offerings (AE, super side-kicking, custom difficulty settings and the now-fixed rare recipe drops).The same can be held true for a single side at different times.
I don't know for if the patient to BUY IT NAO fluctuation on any item is smaller or larger than the difference between 'on average' red and blue.
My suspicion is that on many items it is larger.
I agree with you that the NAO factor (and more specifically what item is sought 'NAO!') differs between sides. One reason why there might be more NAO factor on one side than the other for a certain item is the relative availability of and the demand for the item sought after. Some time-conscious players tend to go into NAO mode where there is a relative scarcity of an item, wherever it might be. -
Yup, there's a lot more than just players and archetypes and powers that differ between blue side and red side, including the missions themselves, all of which gives reason why there is a difference between the markets.
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Quote:Well, yes, influence traded for infamy or vice versa, will buy the same items from vendors at the same prices. However, the same is clearly not true of the markets. Explain, just why is it that a certain proc sells for a few million blue side but for tens of millions red side? Or vice versa?Check your SO venders, the invention tables, the contacts.
1 Influence = 1 Infamy at all of those places.
1 Inf (either) today doesn't necessarily equal 1 inf tomorrow on the markets.
Besides the 'natural' daily and weekly variations, the shake out from the Halloween event will take at least 1-2 weeks before the market is again 'stable', just in time for the Winter event to shake it up again.
The only things that differ between the sides are 1) the population size of players and 2) the archetypes and power sets that those players choose. For one reason or another, certain items are in greater demand on one side than the other, in spite of equal drop rates and (presumably) nearly equal price-behavior elasticity. Referring to your earlier post about supply, demand, and elasticity, if drop supply and elasticity are equal between the two markets and yet the prices are significantly different (and they are), then clearly the demand for specific items are different between the two sides, based on preferred AT's and power sets which require those items. In short, inf on one side will buy less, or more, than inf from the other side, depending on what item is sought on that side.
So, I have to disagree. 1 influence is not equal to 1 infamy, based on what each can currently buy. -
Quote:True this. I've also read Nord's and Uber's reply after yours, as well as the earlier thread that Nord linked to, which I followed earlier.I don't perceive that as a relevant point since factional inf will never equalize on its own.
Open the floodgates and whichever faction is at a theoretical disadvantage will rapidly make it up thanks to the world of new opportunities presented by a merger.
As I suggested earlier, it makes good sense to consolidate the two currently separated markets and I am in favor of it. Had it been consolidated to begin with, I doubt there would have been any substantial impact on game play or market play. However, as it is, there is clearly a disparity between the two markets simply because they operate separately, with the only link between them being player-initiated transfers.
One way to alleviate the obvious impact of merging the markets is to provide long-term notice. If, for example, the devs indicated that a merge was impending in 6 months time, I think there would be little short-term to mid-term impact on the market on both sides as they play themselves out, with both of them gradually adjusting to each other up to the date of the merge. A few days or few weeks is clearly too short a time frame for players and marketers to adjust their short-, mid- and long-term holdings and positions. Something like a three or six month time frame would allow the trends in each side to gradually work themselves towards a merged dual side market. So, here, I don't see a problem, provided adequate notice and a large enough time frame is given to rework their market positions in line with a merger.
But even as a proponent of a merged market (like most of us here), I'm also playing devil's advocate, asking questions about the potential consequences, both short-term and long-term, in the view of all players who have a vested interest in their characters, either or both sides, marketers or not.
And nobody has really answered the question of why it's necessary or even so desirable to enough of a large player base for the devs to dedicate time to this over other equally if not more valid requests made by the player community. At worst, it's a minor inconvenience to me, and really, it's not even that as my heroes and villains operate separately and have no need to exchange resources. Even if the markets were merged, I doubt it would change anything (significant) that I'm doing now. -
As much as I like and agree with the idea of the merged market, it may not be as easy as it might seem at first glance. Even after coding changes to merge the markets, the market database(s) would still have to be merged without flaw.
I think a more serious problem is the immediate fallout that would come because of the price disparities, even hundreds of millions of inf apart on some items, between the two sides. Even if we are given a few weeks notice of an impending merge, the player (or at least marketer) reaction would be immediate and in some cases fairly drastic depending on the item and level of disparity.
What if you had already put up an item for sale that would typically sell low on one side but is priced much higher than the other side or vice versa? Would everyone be allowed to retract their bids at some point prior to the merge? What about the inf you had already sunk into items stored in base or on your character, which may be potentially be much worth less in a merged market? Or worth more? Would it be 'fair' either way to either lose or gain simply because of a market merge?
Has anyone looked at whether 1 influence blue-side = 1 infamy red-side in terms of actual purchasing power? I have a notion that they are not equal and merging the market will also have a total-side impact on the value of the inf on that side.
Frankly, as much as I agree with the idea (and perhaps it should have been done this way from the beginning) for merged markets, I don't see the problem with a separate WW and BM. It has not hindered my game play one iota.