Why do HEATs feel like fail?
By
Afterimage,
Posted on: 2009-10-10 13:43 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
To reply, and also to rephrase my previous post in a much pithier version: it's meaningless to debate whether the HEATs were designed well or poorly when there's a good case to be made that they were hardly designed at all.
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Agreed.
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
...it's meaningless to debate whether the HEATs were designed well or poorly...
I completely disagree.
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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
...when there's a good case to be made that they were hardly designed at all.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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Would it be more acceptable if I said that they were designed according to beliefs which have since been proven false, or at least not the whole truth? Because I'm trying not to say "badly designed" - that has the connotation that they are bad as a consequence of their design, when in fact they are both good and bad for reasons the designers probably didn't understand at the time. So I'm going with the terms "more designed" and "less designed" as a shorthand for the eventual product's performance being the predicted consequence of deliberate decisions on the design team's part to a greater or lesser degree. If you prefer, I could instead say that VEATs are more "working as intended" than HEATs - that is, the relationship between the designer's intentions and the eventual product is more strongly correlated.|
Originally Posted by LordXenite
I completely disagree.
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It would certainly be difficult to convince me, based on the evidence, that the design team that put together the HEATs knew exactly what they were doing and how it would pan out.
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Seriously. In 2004, video game sales amounted to $7.3 billion; entertainment as a whole was $158.5 billion. That is a tiny percentage; 4.6%, to be exact.|
Originally Posted by LordXenite
A tiny percentage of entertainment? Seriously?
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| One design does not fit all.[/FONT] |
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Actually, that statement I also disagree with on the count of it being a generalization. However, if you were to follow my entertainment-focused habits, you would learn that I actually live by that statement and most forms of entertainment that do nothing more than stimulate my reflexes do not last long with me.
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Keep your HEATs. I was simply replying to the blanket statement that "Anything that involves no or little challenge/skill is poor design if its main purpose is entertainment." I believe the evidence of the entertainment industry shows this to be a bald-faced lie.
Actually, as far as I'm concerned both HEATs and VEATs are working as intended because they are meant to truthfully and faithfully embody what being a HERO and what being a VILLAIN is all about. Kheldians work best when they lead teams and play as the spearhead with the team backing them and VEATs are like how comic-book Villains are in the first part of the book. Masterful, totally resistant to the Hero's efforts until the Hero isolates the Villain from their support network (their team and minions) and finally the last battle commences in which the Villain loses footing and finally succumbs to Heroic Justice.Quote:
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Would it be more acceptable if I said that they were designed according to beliefs which have since been proven false, or at least not the whole truth?
So yes, as far as I'm concerned, both EATs are WAI. I do not judge a class only by its DPS-meter like most seem to do.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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Which is fine, because it is not your job to do so. A good designer cares about the conceptual design and the mechanics, and irrespective of whether the player consciously inquires into it or not, a better understanding of the mechanics on the part of the designer will lead to more informed and deliberate decisions that have a real effect on the play experience. You've made a stirring defense of the EATs on a conceptual basis, but this is not and should not be the end of the design process.|
Originally Posted by LordXenite
I do not judge a class only by its DPS-meter like most seem to do.
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In other words, one can only say that the HEATs are fully designed if you don't care about mechanics, as neither you nor their original designers do. The problem is that ignoring mechanical concerns does not make them go away, and telling other people that they're wrong to consider mechanics doesn't make them stop. For a recent and dramatic example, witness AE: a system designed with a strong eye toward concept, ignoring mechanical concerns to its great detriment.
@SPTrashcan
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That is, in fact, one of the major points about the Kheldeans. They were created as team characters. They benefit from being on a team for more than just the bonus that they get.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Added in.
The great thing about VEATs is that they don't suffer from not having a team. Their inherent is miniscule at best (something like +0.01 max end and something small for health? Its damn hard to find numbers) but the same benefits that buff teams are self buffs to. I do personally dislike the Kheld inherents, because they do absolutely nothing for you when you aren't teamed. |
In the old days, it was assumed that by the time you unlocked the Kheldeans that you had a pretty good handle on the game. I think back in those days, that meant that you had learned other strategies other than rushing blindly into the next group every time.
In fact the Kheldeans were created with nemesis built in to teach you this if you had not learned it already.
I'm one to like to explore different kinds of character paths so I've made PBs and WSs that are single (human), dual (human, squid), and tri-form. I intend to stick with that with each character.
I think that the concept of the three form character was to allow players to augment what the team was lacking.
No blaster? Go squid.
No tank? Go dwarf.
I really don't see much of an End issue once you get squid form. I slot mine up with end mods and I can pretty much keep blasting all day. In fact, I often switch into squid form to regain end instead of using Rest.
I will add that I don't go out of my way to play a PB or WS. In general, I find playing the other archetypes more fun.
As I haven't unlocked the VETAs yet (I'm not really motivated to do so. My highest level villain was crippled by the OOS bug when the VETA Issue was released, and I couldn't play the character - which I had been playing regularly - at all for months (the character was literally stuck in place and couldn't move) and then with constant OOS issues for what turned into a full year.), I can't compare the two. My character slots are full at this point anyway so even if I ding that villain to 50 - I can't even say that I will make a VETA when I get a vet character slot next year.
Neg Rep Comment: "1920X1200. All windows shrunk to 75% of default. Clicking on powers with your mouse is slow and inefficient."
I'm sorry, but that is an inefficient way to say "LOL LRN2PLY!"
Honestly I wonder how that person can even read the game text at those settings, of course if all they care about if phat XP then reading is hardly an issue for them.
Anyhow, clicking with the mouse may be inefficient for some (probably those with slow hands and poor eye-hand coordination), but for others trying to remember dozens of different keybinds across dozens of characters with many different powersets and builds is rather impractical. Especially if you cycle through multiple characters in a week, if not in a single evening.
Besides, I have much more important things to keep track of day to day than a bunch of non-standard keybinds.
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Aside from story reasons, there really is no reason for Void Hunters to show up in the game anymore and even then they should only be in the Kheld arcs themselves. It never made any damn sense for Void Hunters to appear in the middle of spawns of Clockwork, Devouring Earth, Rularru, etc...
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Originally Posted by Stormbird
And neither one is difficult to take down if you... I don't know, aren't asleep at the keyboard. In which case you're out of range of them anyway.
The point being, they're just not that big a deal. Never have been, no matter how they spawn. Sure, the first one you see is "OMG, what's that and what do we do?" After one, two at the most, you just take them out and move on. Jaegers are a bigger threat, especially in a big group, with the death explosion. (Yes, I know cysts blow up too, but they don't' follow you. And the nictus in all of them die off quickly even if you don't do anything.) |
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They're mercenaries. They're also, potentially, turning into full Nictus. They're there to hunt you. |
Originally Posted by Lazarus
Aside from story reasons, there really is no reason for Void Hunters to show up in the game anymore and even then they should only be in the Kheld arcs themselves. It never made any damn sense for Void Hunters to appear in the middle of spawns of Clockwork, Devouring Earth, Rularru, etc...
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Personally, I end up seeing them in "odd" groups as being "I see them that way, through their form/camoflage/illusion." Easier than making a Nictified model of everything else (though, admittedly, it wouldnt' work that way with clockwork - no body to actually take over.)
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I swear the worst part about the rep system is the need people have to respond loudly to anonymous criticism that nobody would ever know about if they didn't respond to it.|
Originally Posted by Lazarus
Neg Rep Comment: "1920X1200. All windows shrunk to 75% of default. Clicking on powers with your mouse is slow and inefficient."
I'm sorry, but that is an inefficient way to say "LOL LRN2PLY!" Honestly I wonder how that person can even read the game text at those settings, of course if all they care about if phat XP then reading is hardly an issue for them. Anyhow, clicking with the mouse may be inefficient for some (probably those with slow hands and poor eye-hand coordination), but for others trying to remember dozens of different keybinds across dozens of characters with many different powersets and builds is rather impractical. Especially if you cycle through multiple characters in a week, if not in a single evening. Besides, I have much more important things to keep track of day to day than a bunch of non-standard keybinds. |
FWIW I use the keyboard for power activation and character movement, with extensive custom keybinds (that I usually keep fairly consistent from character to character), because I want to leave the mouse free for camera control and targeting. It seems to work just fine, but I'm not going to go into the nitty-gritty of ergonomics and human interface design here - though I wish more developers did, because it's often overlooked or downplayed despite it being fundamental to the function of a software product...
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
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The Devs have two simple solutions to that: either make it so that rep is no longer anonymous or disable it entirely.
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Imagine the surprise of some members of a single-digit level team I was with when, with most of us just starting to try out our new characters, entered the sewers... The first tell-tale blackened blast shot came our way (actually my way - ouch!).|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
They're mercenaries. They're also, potentially, turning into full Nictus. They're there to hunt you.
Personally, I end up seeing them in "odd" groups as being "I see them that way, through their form/camoflage/illusion." Easier than making a Nictified model of everything else (though, admittedly, it wouldnt' work that way with clockwork - no body to actually take over.) |
Someone: "OMG, we're fighting Nictus!!"
In spite of what I had read in Paragon wiki, I hadn't realized my presence on any team whatsoever would draw them out, thinking it would only be on Kheldian (i.e., Sunstorm) arcs, or at worst, missions I started.
My PB: "Whoops! It's me they're after. Let 'em have it!"
Well, after the initial panic (or at least puzzlement by some), we got to business and took them out. And the next ones, and the ones after that...
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Except you know about it, and might have something to say about it.|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
I swear the worst part about the rep system is the need people have to respond loudly to anonymous criticism that nobody would ever know about if they didn't respond to it.
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Nevertheless, I don't usually reply to reputation entries, but this one I felt I should, since it fit into the conversation that spawned it:
"You're one of those people that gives medals to losers, aren't you? Competition is what makes people stronger/better. Quit being a wimp. Take a challenge!"
Actually, I don't see the point of medals in the first place. Or races, for that matter. Competition does not make you "stronger/better". It is simply a display of some form of superiority, whereas you might suffer from inferiority in some other aspect of life.
Humans thrive on cooperation, not competition. And so does this game.
I didn't read the latest posts (just the first page) so I will address that. My PB seems to be pretty unkillable without great IOs. I got dull pain, the self heal, and dwarf form which has another self heal. So three big heals, two with decently fast recharges. Not to mention the shields that have decent resistance numbers, and the AoE stun that provides excellent mitigation. Plus, if you ever are about to die, either hit light form, dwarf, or the phase that comes in the secondary. With all that the only time a PB with a good player dies is if they get ambushed by quants or voids or if they get one-shotted....I can only imagine how hard it would be to kill em with sets that maximized defense and recharge
I always thought that the HEAT's inherent should be more of a team buff oriented and less "vampiric" and leech like. For example having a PB on a team should increase a teams +To hit and Confuse resistance (due to their cosmic nature and wisdom). Having a Warshade on a team should increase a teams damage and damage resistance (due to their ruthlessness and dark loving nature). Something like that and one or two Khelds on a team would have the same effect as one or two VEATs.....
It's just an idea..not married to it. But I'd try it.
My level 50 Dominators:
Madame Mindbender 50 Mind/Energy
Fly Agaric 50 Plant/Thorn
Nate Nitro 50 Fire/Psi
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Well put and I really should have known better, but something in the back of my mind really made me want to have a bit of a go at him.|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
As is often the case, EvilRyu has stated his case in an inflammatory and questionably factual manner. As is often the case, he has provoked a response that is likewise inflammatory and also makes some statements that I would consider questionably factual. Heat will be produced, but no light. Nothing of consequence will be determined, and all parties will walk away sore in the hindquarters.
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Your points about design though I feel makes no difference to the final outcome, to me it doesn't matter that HEAT's have changed a lot from the original vision, or if VEAT's haven't really changed - what matters to me now is how they are now.
I can see why some people don't like playing HEATs, I can see why some people love VEATs - but I take serious issue with anyone who tries to say that HEATs are not good and will continue to do so until someone proves me factually wrong.
I am definately a min/maxer and there is no way I would have put 1000 hours and 6 purple sets into a toon if I felt that it wasn't performing as well as another toon would have.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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Humans thrive on both in different situations.
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Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
Humans thrive on cooperation, not competition. And so does this game.
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TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
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And in general almost all life thrives mainly on competition, the strongest survive and all that.|
Originally Posted by Jabbrwock
Humans thrive on both in different situations.
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Hippies and communists tried the co-operation thing and look where that got them.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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What? And miss out on gems we get from idiots who cannot take a joke or who can anonymously harrass us as long as they don't step over some undefined line in what they write?|
Originally Posted by Lazarus
The Devs have two simple solutions to that: either make it so that rep is no longer anonymous or disable it entirely.
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I mean sure they had to get rid of the old one time star system which had almost no ability to harrass people but that doesn't mean anonymous stupid red reps should be stopped.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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Living happily and peacefully on a commune smoking enhanced cigerettes and catching veneral diseases from each other?|
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
And in general almost all life thrives mainly on competition, the strongest survive and all that.
Hippies and communists tried the co-operation thing and look where that got them. |
(erm, not Communists, obviously)
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This is a gross misunderstanding of evolution, and of my statement. Humanity evolved from pack hunters, and retain one of the primary aspects of that history: we work best in groups. Humanity's prime evolutionary advantage is its ability to coordinate and cooperate. Forming groups (ever and ever larger groups as time has passed) is how humanity thrives. |
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
And in general almost all life thrives mainly on competition, the strongest survive and all that.
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We do not thrive on competition. Competition breeds war, death, and destruction. It is not what makes us "stronger".
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*cough*|
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
And in general almost all life thrives mainly on competition, the strongest survive and all that.
Hippies and communists tried the co-operation thing and look where that got them. |
No. In nature, cooperation is a fundamental success strategy employed by almost all lifeforms. Not just within a species either - consider bees and flowers, or seed fruit and the animals that eat them and distribute the seeds in their droppings, or the intestinal flora of ruminants. The real law of nature is that genes persist when they create traits that give an advantage, and die with their carriers when they don't. This leads to a delicate balance of cooperation and competition within a species, as each individual (not necessarily consciously) balances the value propagating its own genome with the risk of hyperaggressive competition leaving no individuals capable of breeding. If competition beat out cooperation in every case, I would pick up the nearest weapon and start murdering every male I saw and [forcibly attempting to have connubial relations with] every female in a desperate attempt to pass on my genes. But if everyone did that, humanity would not survive.
Your brand of "social darwinism" is counterindicated by actual study of nature, and also simple common sense. Neither cooperation nor competition is supreme - total competition is apocalyptic, and total cooperation is only possible among genetically identical clones, which are an evolutionary dead end.
Sorry for the tangent/rant, but it really jerks my chain when people use a bad understanding of biology to justify a purely selfish (or purely cooperative, for that matter) blueprint for human society.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
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Funny, my PB is probably close to your in playtime and Purple Sets, but I'm not a min-maxer haha (save that I do prefer sets that give recharge bonuses). Rather, I'm more of a collector, or chroming my car, or pimping out... all that vernacular. My attitude is "What else is out there to get that I don't have?". Don't have this accolade? Go get it! That's sorta how I've been viewing Purple Sets, almost like they're badges. In fact, it's bugging me that I respecced out of Pulsar months ago, and yet I know I could slot the 'Absolute Amazement' Purple set in it... Yet I really don't like Pulsar... but I really want another Purple Set....haha|
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
I am definately a min/maxer and there is no way I would have put 1000 hours and 6 purple sets into a toon if I felt that it wasn't performing as well as another toon would have.
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I'm know I have pretty good numbers now with my PB if I bothered to calculate them all, simply because I've collected some awesome sets. But a true min-maxer would be interested in things like soft-capping Defense, and that I'm not... Perfect Efficiency takes backseat to just having stuff and having the powers/concepts that I want...
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