Why do HEATs feel like fail?

Quote:

Originally Posted by GibberingLunatic I think I posted eariler my current warshade/peacebringer keybinds, you could have a look at those and add/change whatever so I could give em a shot

Here's a thread where we share some Kheldian keybinds and strategies. Enjoy!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mayhem Yes I've considered it, but do VEATs pay dps/survivability for their mez protection by comparison? I don't believe so.

I think so, I think that if you ask VEAT players they'll tell you that their solo damage still doesn't compare with Brutes for example and their solo survivability still doesn't compare with Masterminds. Personally I wouldn't know because I don't play VEATs much (if at all) but if I recall correctly, VEAT burst damage is still lagging behind the other Villain ATs'.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mayhem I personally wouldn't want shapeshifting eliminated either, as it's the one thing that makes HEATs really stand out (even if it does make them trickier to play than other ATs and require more attentiveness than most).

Agreed!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mayhem I also feel that the "jack-of-all trades" tag only applies to Kheldians intending to tank, i.e. ones taking dwarf form, slotting it well, and often playing in groups that need/want tanking...

Actually, I see the Jack of All Trade concept even in Human-only Kheldians since the Human-only Kheldian has to mix in powers from several disciplines, each mediocre on its own, but the mixture itself can become quite potent, sometimes proving to be very effective in more situations than a normal AT could be effective in.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mayhem ...work hard to maintain aggro as you lack a taunt aura.

On teams without a Tank it doesn't take much for my Kheldians to maintain aggro, sometimes even in Nova form let alone Dwarf. In teams where there are tanks, my Dwarf would only lose aggro to them if they took their taunt because I always use my Dwarf taunt power as a part of my Dwarf power rotation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mayhem Also if CoV has proved anything it's that tanking isn't needed except for perhaps some AVs/GMs. I slotted dwarf well on my tri-form WS, sacrificing human form usefulness, and yet 99.9% of the time my WS is basically just a damage dealer as tanking is not needed/wanted.

This indeed is a problem with the current form CoH/V is in. However, if you went to play in an All Kheldian Team as I often do with my Kheldians, you would suddenly find out exactly how important tanking is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mayhem As for mez protection, limiting it to human-form only would be a balance in itself for Peacebringers over Warshades

Huh? I find that confusing, who said anything about limiting mez-protection to Human-form?!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mayhem Personally I'd still like to see mag2-3 passive mez protection for nova and human forms of both Kheldians...

Mod08 already locked the thread discussing mez-protection for squishies, Kheldians included. I doubt any discussion on this would end up differently.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mayhem The Blaster-solution might work too - letting PBs and WSs use their (first) 2 single-target ranged attacks in human and nova forms when mezzed, like Defiance (Mk2) allows - the blasts on human form look pretty weak on paper, but this would be a big boon to nova form.

In light of the Kheldian Dwarves becoming a Break Free of sorts, I think it's quite clear how the Devs want Kheldians to be able to deal with being mezzed.

I think many would agree that Warshades are certainly capable of epic performance both in DPS and crowd control (disorient-stacking FTW and all that) and Peacbringers can be quite difficult to kill (three self-heals across Human/Dwarf forms and Lightform plus Human shields) but their DPS potential still lacks in comparison with the peaks Warshades can reach and tanking is already underrated in the game as it is.

Perhaps the question the community should focus on is what can be done to distinguish Kheldians in this game so that they may be appreciated more without stepping on anyone's toes?

Nothing... Nothing can be done because unfortunately somebodies toes are gonna get squashed by some change and they will be the next person to say something about it >.<

Just the way MMORPGS are...

And by the way, that link helped alot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GibberingLunatic Nothing... Nothing can be done because unfortunately somebodies toes are gonna get squashed by some change and they will be the next person to say something about it >.< Just the way MMORPGS are...

It certainly does appear to be the case, doesn't it? However, I'm still pretty certain there are subtle ways to boost Kheldians without annoying anyone in particular. What if for example, Kheldian Power Pool modifiers would be increased and power pool toggles would be active even in the forms but with even lowered Endurance costs? Or... for example, each attack from the Power Pools would be more potent on a Kheldian so that essentially a Human-only Kheldian could be much more Scrapper'ish with the addition of Enhanced Power Pools. Even more-so if the Power Pool restrictions were lifted from Kheldians, as in, no level/tier restriction and no more locking Power Pools from Kheldians. Also... every Pool Power would come with two extra slots on it!

Seriously speaking though... wouldn't this be enough power but not too much power, all the while utilizing a mechanism that already exists in game without forcing the Devs to think up new powers and create new animations?

Quote:

Originally Posted by GibberingLunatic And by the way, that link helped alot.

Good stuff!

Admittedly I've spent rather a lot of inf on my Bane, Crab and Widow builds (not started bidding for the IOs for the Fort yet), but the Bane and Widow are no slouch in the single-target damage department compared to my L50 Brutes/Stalkers/Scrapper - exceeding their capabilities in most cases - brute-wise only my pre-nerf EM/Elec and my SS/Dark approached them for ST damage and specifically burst, likewise my EM/EA Stalker. Over time my Widow can out-dps all of my brutes/stalkers/scrapper (claw scrapper probably comes closest).

The Bane also has burst damage that compares very favourably with the alpha-strikes on my Stalkers/Blaster and outdoes the Widow/Brutes/Scrapper (though the Bane does have slow-animating attacks and some redraw when setting up his debuffs, so he gets outpaced on dps over time - but not by much as he ends normal fights so fast - he hits like a truck which is why I slightly prefer him to the Widow). In terms of survivability my Bane and Widow are both soft-capped so they can out-survive my Bot/DM MM and most of my other L50s in most situations (RWZ challenge notably, against an RWZ L54 Rikti spawn with 3 bosses).

Also never underestimate fear of nerfage - some VEAT players may not be entirely truthful about their capabilities VEATs are incredibly good, even with basic IO sets (all of mine were cheaply frankenslotted before I went for the multi-billion full-on crazy of soft-capping and perma-hasten).

If you're talking about the melee/ranged/control/debuff/utility mix then Dominators and Blasters are very much in the same ballpark - they just can't tank as well as Khelds, but then Khelds give up a lot of that flexibility in order to tank (notwithstanding my WS once tanking Rom and his 3 Nictus, while in eclipsed nova form, only switching to dwarf to pop taunt occasionally and use dwarf mire).

A lordly chap named Lord Xenite mentioned it quite a lot in the post containing the following quote so I wanted to comment on that premise:
Yeah I think that's a very likely point. They may not realise how often you get mezzed at L40+ though - admittedly with Eclipse up being mezzed doesn't really get you killed even if you don't switch to dwarf (or had a build without it, heaven forbid), but still - I can see it being very annoying on the PB I'm planning who obviously won't have Eclipse and will want to stay in Human form as much as possible. Switching to Dwarf means dropping all those toggles I'll want him to use in human form, likely confining him to finishing fights in Dwarf (which probably isn't an ideal situation).

My problem is still that Warshades are also very hard to kill with Eclipse, Stygians, pets taking a share of aggro, and Dwarf form if you really need it - so the Peacebringer advantage isn't really an advantage over WSs and they still lag noticeably behind WSs on damage (or so I theorise from their power numbers and have heard, never having played one).

Saying PBs have heals as an advantage over an Eclipsed Warshade, is like saying a /Regen scrapper has heals as an advantage over a soft-capped /SR or /Shield scrapper - the PB like the Regen has the heals because they need to use them as part of their ongoing playstyle to survive, whereas the res-capped Warshade like any def-softcapped characters takes very little damage over time (albeit the def-capped one will experience spikes more than the very slow HP loss the res-capped character takes).

Basically I don't see it as a PB advantage in the same way that I avoid Regen, because having survivability based on click-heals means that you lose time in your attack chain for doing damage, and on a PB it's another thing to pay attention to, when the Eclipsed warshade can usually ignore their HP bar and only pay attention to their Eclipse buff (until fights are over and they can pop Stygians to top off HP/end).

Being totally honest (and I haven't played my Warshade a great deal this year), I still think Warshades are in a pretty good situation and comparable to VEATs in damage/survivability in the right conditions, and add usefulness to a team beyond damage in certain situations (tanking, ghost & recall team, pulling, etc.), even if it's not quite as universally useful as providing +def (and maybe +dmg and +ToHit) to the team all the time.

Peacebringers are my main problem, because at the moment my sole impetus for playing a PB would be that I've never played a PB before and consequently don't have a L50 PB - otherwise I'm really struggling to feel enthusiastic about playing one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Mayhem Peacebringers are my main problem, because at the moment my sole impetus for playing a PB would be that I've never played a PB before and consequently don't have a L50 PB - otherwise I'm really struggling to feel enthusiastic about playing one.

I have a Lv50 TriFormShade™, and a Lv50 TriFormPB. I play both occasionally and I can say that whichever way you interpret and analyze things about WS and PB, a WS will usually have a harder time against a single higher-level foe than the PB will. This of course doesn't help make PB's more popular, and perhaps this should be the focus of any change to PB's. Something to make them worthwhile above and beyond the "I must have one of each" line of thought.

Also, whenever a comparison is made between ATs' or power-sets, the comparison should exclude set-IO's and hopefully focus on SO builds. I think that people's perceptions of what AT's and power-sets can perform is seriously skewed by using set-IO's in a build and only after checking what an SO build can accomplish can we form an informed and productive analysis of who needs improvements and in what areas.

By the way, what did you think about the idea of allowing Kheldians (PB's especially) to "abuse" the Power Pools that I previously posted about?

Considering they're already locked out of the power pool which has the first melee attack I'd want to take (AirSup), the idea didn't really grab me as a great idea to equalise things for PBs. Basically you're talking about an enhanced Kick, Boxing, Flurry and Jump Kick. Flurry I'd still skip for the long animation time and Kick/Boxing would need serious levels of improvement to make them more than filler. Jump Kick... well, if at the same time the Devs gave it the same KD chance as AirSup then maybe. An improved Tough/Weave might be more useful, but really I don't see a thematic or even gameplay-driven reason why this would be a particularly suitable improvement for a PB, or any Kheld.

Your idea to turn Glowing Touch into a PBAE heal was a good start - maybe turn PBs into the support/protective Kheldian, whereas WS would be the full-offense Kheldian - that would work for me. Taking it further, Restore Essence could be turned into a PBAE rez with a decent radius (25?) so that you could use it either to rez yourself, rez teammates, or rez all of you after a wipe (if you died close together) - giving you an ability to combat-rez multiple players which only Dark Miasma Corruptors/Defenders/Masterminds have otherwise.

Conserve Energy could likewise be turned into a PBAE buff for PBs, reducing end usage from power use for any teammates within range. Group Energy Flight could be changed into something useful, such as a PBAE click-based group buff that granted SJ instead of Flight (like IR does) but also granted +def or +res or +regen or +status resists. The PB human-form shield toggles could also be changed to grant slight benefits to nearby teammates (like Grant Cover does for Shields).

I'd change the inherents too - as well as the existing bonuses the Kheld gets, have the team benefiting from some buffs too - maybe +1% +dmg per team member from the WS, and +1% resists (all) and/or +5% regen per team member from the PB. Maybe differentiate the nova/dwarf forms more as well, so WS nova could gain some status resists (because we suspect the Devs would never give them status protection) while PB dwarf could gain a +regen aura for allies stood near which also functioned as a threat aura.

That would fit the storyline too, with pure Kheldians (i.e. PBs) being generally peaceful and helpful, and the Nictus (i.e. what WSs were/are) being the life-sucking warmongers.