Why do HEATs feel like fail?

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Originally Posted by Socorro Do Khelds defeat enemies and help complete missions (or help do so) as efficiently as other ATs, either solo or on teams? I don't really know, but that is something that could be quantified.

I think that's a question only the Devs can answer because only the Devs know exactly what levels of performance Kheldians were/are supposed to have. In my opinion, whenever players claim that since Kheldians have shields and melee attacks they should be compared to Scrappers, that's when things start to go crazy...

Very true, but for completeness' sake I do wish another completely different Epic AT was availaible on each side to compliment what's already there. On the Red Side, it's easy: Khelds should be available as villains. I've run into too many Nova and Dwarf bosses trying to slap my hero down to believe that all Khelds are good guys

For Blueside: Longbow should be available as a near Mirror Image of the SoAs. Somewhat different powersets and looks (can't have those Arachnos backpacks, now can we...) but basically starting off very soldiery (guns, weapons, and such) before diverting into niche areas. Many people don't like how Longbow uniforms look... Well, other the the red and white colorations, they can actually look pretty cool. Like SoAs, you can be stuck with a uniform at first, but can color it as you see fit.

Vanguard can't really be a new AT at this point. Everyone can already join them and get their uniforms. Vanguard NPCs do have some nifty powers/looks that aren't available to PCs however, so some Epic Pools (perhaps requiring vanguard merits) that emulate these would be cool.

But the Longbow suck. We need something cool like the PPD. Interesting branches, lots of different uniforms, and they aren't Longbow. What else could you ask for.

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Originally Posted by Cynical_Gamer But the Longbow suck. We need something cool like the PPD. Interesting branches, lots of different uniforms, and they aren't Longbow. What else could you ask for.

I'd ask for something I've never even seen before because for me, anything else would not be Epic. Especially not if I've already kicked its butt several times over on both Red and Blue sides.

The only problem I see here is that the dev's have been pretty regular about creating things that work for both sides equally. While your suggestion gives something to both sides, on the villain side it isn't 'new', which will leave some players unhappy and on the hero side it represents a lot of new dev work that doesn't benefit both sides. As much as I like your suggestions I suspect that any new epic archetypes, if there are any, will be a general one (or two) that can be played by either side - maybe something introduced after Going Rogue that is specific to Praetorian earth.

I'd agree...provided we didn't already have SoAs. Being able to be a member/soldier of one of the more canon-entrenched organizations on one side but not the other is a wonky imbalance that shouldn't exists, IMO...

Now, if we were to have still more Epics in addition to Longbow/Villainous Khelds, great, but I like for things to be in sync first

Biggest problem with PPD being a HEAT is redundancy.

Want to be SWAT? Roll a AR/Traps Defender or AR/Devices Blaster.
Want to be Psi-Cop? Roll a Psi Blaster or Psi/Emp Defender.
Want to be a Quantum? Roll a Peacebringer.

The only ones you can't already be are Hardsuit or Detective.

This. A PPD or Longbow, branching epic AT that's actually epic like the Soldiers of Arachnos would be great.

Agreed, but then, some people would like villainous Kheldians on red side. I think what's being asked for is a mirror of each side's epic choice.

Although, you might be right and perhaps having epic ATs are just "fail" as a concept and all new ATs (if any) should be available at character select.

Actually, this is the problem with VEATs to hear some tell it. And I think it gets to a very germane distinction that's at the heart of the this thread. For Kheld lovers, almost to the person, I've seen they like the Kheldians because they are unique. Whether they think they're underpowered, perfect, or overpowered, folks tend to just like Kheldians because they are substantially different than other ATs.

My constant foil Memphis Bill comes to mind.

By contrast, some of us, look at the "under the hood" stuff and care about it much more. VEATs for example, feel very unique to me because their AT modifier (1 in almost every category) gives their playstyle a very unique feel, even if their powers themselves aren't so unique. And so I like them. If a PPD AT were similarly gifted, I don't think the fact that I could create analogues would make any difference to me at all. An AR/Traps Defender would NOT be a PPD. No matter how many powers they shared. Just like a Claws/SR Stalker is not a Night Widow and doesn't play like one.

I can recognize that this different outlook colors this discussion, but I don't ascribe any greater moral weight to either position.

Agreed. Scrappers are specialists. They are specialists in soloing, where they, as an archetype, are across the board excellent, by reason of having enough survivability combined with plenty of damage. Further, even looking at the basic functions of powers in teams, they are not generalists. In teams, you deal damage, you help others deal damage, you survive, and you help others survive. Scrappers only do two of these things to any reasonable extent. One they do moderately poorly, but they're not quite completely inept. And the last they lack entirely. That's not a generalist, it's a specialist in personal effectiveness, specifically in personal damage dealing and survival.

Just because an AT cannot be liked by everybody doesn't mean the devs should simply stop caring who likes or dislikes them, either. I mean, you can't please everybody with a storyline, either, so the VEAT storyline is just fine, right? Of course not! There are a few folks who like it, and a lot of folks who just ignore it because they enjoy playing their VEAT characters, and another lot of folks who despise it and find that it turns them off on playing their VEAT characters entirely. That's not success. And neither is having an AT whose play style has pretty narrow appeal be the reward AT hero side. There is no easy fix for a bad storyline - it takes time and work to write a new story, and if you go back and rewrite the existing one, the veteran VEATs will be annoyed that they don't get to experience it. But fixing having the hero side EAT having narrow appeal is much easier - port over the existing SoA mechanics, reskin the mandatory uniforms, and (this is the hard part) write a new story for them. It won't fix everything, but it will fix more than not doing it would fix. Don't let the drive for perfection derail the need for improvement.

I don't know that having epic ATs that unlock is fail, but they could probably sell them a little better. Epic is a horrible adjective for them, as people think it means power, not storyline with that. Yes, it's silly to think the devs will break the game for you with an AT, but people do it just the same, heh.

Though as has been said, I think any new ATs will be open at the start, since they have the unlock thing covered. There is not certainty of what GR will bring in that regard, but I feel pretty confident that there will be a new AT with it that you get if you buy the expansion. Not sure it will be a "start at level 1" or start farther in, though. Who knows how it will play, though. Hopefully there will be multiple approaches you can take with it to satisfy as many as possible.

Only the actual PPD officers are so much cooler?
SWAT? Impossible to get an accurate look. Grenadiers and Ghosts and Equalisers, all incredibly nasty.

Psi-Cop...myeah, I'll give you that one.

Hardsuits. Want. Now. Please. Come on, especially the Boss level ones. Who doesn't want freaking cool armour and laser blasters?

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Actually, this is fairly true of VEATs as well. The difference being they're more fleshed out to make them more unique than they originally were.

Normal Fortunatas basically just have psi attacks. They don't have a bunch of team buffs. Neither do Banes and Crabs. Widows just attack with claws and hide, which a Stalker could easily fill. Aside from flashy visuals, Crabs and Huntsmen basically just shoot at you with guns.

Epic PPD could be similar. And they do still have unique things they can do. Ghosts and Equilizers for instance, two very annoying units to fight, which have some unique aspects. Ghosts are a ranged cloak that crits and has mezzes. Psi-division, yes, is basically just psi attacks with some empathy. But that's not to say they can't give them a unique flair like they did with the Tactical Training for VEATs. Power suits can easily be a crab-like character that has good defenses with ranged attacks. And who wouldn't want to be a police drone?! (Okay, that last one is a joke)

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Everyone forgets the SWAT Grenadiers. They also happen to look damn cool.
Yeah, this and the Rikti AT are the two I keep begging for

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

It isn't me trying to say they are failing.

The devs have shown themselves to be willing to change things when people prove the need so if you think changes are needed you are the one who needs to come up with the actual reasons, not just a few lines of rhetoric.

Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!

Originally Posted by Aggelakis PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"

Quite true, but if you disagree with something then you really need a good reason as to why. You can't on one hand say that fun is too subjective and you need to analyse effectiveness and then say you refuse to analyse effectiveness.

To me the fact that Khelds exist in the state they are in says the devs have analyses effectiveness and been happy with it.

Actually you are a faceless subscriber and your evaluation makes little difference in the grand scheme of things unless you back it up.

The only people that need charts are the ones that are saying something should be proved, you want to prove a design flaw or a performance failure then do so.

I though fun was too subective to talk about. Also I am having fun and you aren't, so shouldn't you stop playing?

It isn't their responsibility and they know this, however the devs don't have enough time to do anything and the old saying goes that if you want something doing you have to help yourself. Without the players helping out this game would have gone down the pan a long time ago.

Sorry I thought you were one of the ones wanting something to be proven? I know Khelds are fine and don't need to prove that.

I also find your viewpoint quite strange. You buy a single player game and dont like it so what do you do? Nothing. You have no recourse to get any changes made at all and the best you can hope for it a refund.

In CoX you do have a recourse, if you can show changes are needed then they will be made. The devs cannot possibly sift through the thousands of complaints on this forum to find out which are relevant and which are just people not liking certain things.

Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!

Originally Posted by Aggelakis PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"

The very fact that you don't like masterminds even though they are powerful is proof that even though you cannot define fun then you should at least try to and make things for different tastes.

Turning Khelds into overwhelming powerhouses may still not make any of those who dont play them start playing them, because it seems to me that most of the people who actually like playing Khelds also realise that they are powerful.

I find the corrolation between those who hate the shapeshifting mechanic and those complaining of a lack of power interesting.

Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!

Originally Posted by Aggelakis PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"

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Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar I find the corrolation between those who hate the shapeshifting mechanic and those complaining of a lack of power interesting.

Agreed.

To speak more precisely on the matter of new ATs' though, if an AT comes out fresh from the Devs' and all (or most) of its inner-workings are passives (all normal or stronger modifiers without any obvious weaknesses) my interest in this AT will probably be lowered by that fact. I suppose I'm simply the antithesis to EvilGecko at least on this issue. For a character to feel fun for me, I need to feel my characters succeeded because of my actions, not despite them.

Actually, SoA having a 1.0 HP modifier is an obvious weakness. Very much so. It's actually given me a lot of trouble in taking on AVs like Indigo who can hit for more than that. She gets lucky, Foxy Widow (my NW) dies.

But again, the only thing I find offensive here is that you and PrincessDarkstar seem to think that just because someone doesn't like your beloved Kheldians, they must only care about effectiveness. It's a shabby and baseless argument. But then what can you do when you don't have facts or reason on your side?

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Originally Posted by EvilGeko But again, the only thing I find offensive here is that you and PrincessDarkstar seem to think that just because someone doesn't like your beloved Kheldians, they must only care about effectiveness.

But that's all I ever saw you talk about, at least in this thread...

Or they are at a loss on how to improve them in a manner that would address the many issues the playerbase seems to have with them.


And your analysis is somehow less meaningless because you're telling them what they already know?


But didn't you just earlier demand some kind of hard numbers addressing that people are dissatisfied with the kheldians performance? What kind of numbers would satisfy you? A statistical analysis of all players that have ever teamed with a kheldian or played one? A "fun o meter" with a numerical scale? What?


I see. So since you've decided for me that fun was too "subjective" for us to discuss in an adult fashion, and you've further decided for me that I'm not having fun, you've concluded for me that I should leave...

I think not. I'm still having a great time with this game, always have. I think you deciding for me that I should leave because I disagree with your assessment is very telling...


With that I cannot disagree. Without the players' assistance this game would certainly not be in the condition it is today. However, I think demanding that all players must memorize their spreadsheets and calculate the game into tedium or accept that their opinions are meaningless is incredibly pompous and foolish. Not everyone that plays this game is a mathematician. Demanding that they become so or they "should play WoW" is just... wrong.


Then you would be wrong. I don't need anything to be proven. My experience has provided all the evidence I need. We are addressing your earlier demand for "numbers to back it up".

Not sure where you were going with this. I don't recall ever espousing a "don't do anything" attitude. Think you must have been thinking about too many other folk's posts when you responded to mine. I'm all for feedback. I kind of think there should be polls before you can log in. I also think each player should be able to post whatever feedback is in their means and capabilities to do so. Demanding that all players become mathematicians doesn't seem like a particularly realistic approach to gathering that feedback. At least to me. This forum may represent a large portion of the game's population these days, and it's a pretty cold place for a newer player to come to for information.

Since the change in management, I have been consistently impressed with the level of developer involvement in the community of this game. While I don't always agree, and am often a churlish ******* about it, (I'm kind of confrontational in real life), I have always respected that the design team of this game tries to do what they can to deliver what the players ask for. And if they can't, I love that they just say "dude, I have no idea and I don't think so", instead of some ridiculous spun answer.

Not sure where you decided I ever thought that was a bad idea.

So, in response, I have to say I don't think you were thinking about my post when you responded to it, as much of this doesn't have much to do with it. It raised some interesting points on the issue of the mindset I was addressing, and was very illuminating. For that I thank you.

Well considering they went through a revamp recently I doubt that. But assuming I am willing to listen to you; what are the problems? All I have seen is people not liking shapeshifting (Fair play - not everyone will like that) or unproven performance issues.

I haven't analysed anything, I am just asking those who think something is wrong to show me what.

Well if someone says Kheldians don't do enough DPS then I would like to see someone show where they are on the DPS scales and then we can decide if they are below where they should be.

If someone can do that and prove the time taken to shift to and from Nova is detracting too heavily from the DPS abilities then I would be only too happy to join you in saying Khelds need a buff.

And you can do this for whichever aspect you care to mention, but I think the numbers will just back up those people who say khelds are performing where they should.

Lol I don't 'actually' think you should leave the game You made a statement that if it isn't fun then leave, and you are the one who said (Or implied) you don't find Khelds fun so must be the one not having fun. By your own logic you should leave, not by mine.

Oh by no means should everyone get stuck into the spreadsheets or whatever, but if you are trying to say something isn't working right then you need to prove it. If you are just going with the flow then fine you don't need to know the numbers, but as soon as you want to talk about changes then you need to know what and why.

Experience proves nothing. All it proves is that you don't 'like' Kheldians, or that you didn't play them right. Or possibly that you expect something wrong from them.

It is like DNA evidence against word of mouth in court, word of mouth is ok but when you have 50 conflicting stories is becomes less useful and you need something more substantial.

I know you didn't say you had a "Don't do anything" attitude, I just read the wrong thing into what you were saying by the looks of it.

And I do agree with you on the feedback thing, not everyone is a maths wizz, but feedback based on how things feel is generally useless since like fun, feelings are too subjective.

I never meant to imply anything about your opinion on the devs. I just meant that I can't begin to imagine how much 'i feel this is lacking' feedback they must get.

I will admit to being wrong about what you meant in some places, but I don't think how something feels to be performing can be a good enough indicator since it is obvious so many people feel different things.

Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!

Originally Posted by Aggelakis PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"