Why do HEATs feel like fail?
By
Afterimage,
Posted on: 2009-10-10 13:43 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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OR...I was responding to a specific point.|
Originally Posted by LordXenite
[FONT="Verdana"]Thank you for saying this as you just demonstrated your bias with it.
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| Every class, other than Scrappers, has weaknesses designed into that class that require the player to figure out ways to kill and survive. |
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| Kheldians are a bit more intricate than other classes. Kheldians have both melee and ranged abilities but lack major characteristics in each doctrine and so the player can't simply rely on either doctrine to be successful when solo. When a Kheldian is form-dancing, or when a Kheldian is on a team, then the potential increases and the Kheldian classes become more interesting to play. |
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| If everyone playing this game was interested in nothing more than pure DPS, everyone would be playing Scrappers. The fact that not everyone is, simply suggests some people are still interested in something more than chasing enemies to smack'em in the face, and for me, any other class is superior to Scrappers because most other classes actually offer both strategies since I can smack stuff in the face both at melee and at range but I'm required to employ tactics other than chase-your-enemy and beat it! |
Kheldians mechanics are just poorly executed. The forms feel tacked on, not integral to the AT. They limit the human form, not enhance it.
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| What's more, Kheldians feel epic to me because when I'm in Nova, blasting things, I know how vulnerable I am, and I'm just waiting for those Bosses to come chase me down so I can shift to Dwarf and whack'em in the face as a Dwarf with awesome damage-resist numbers in comparison to what I had a moment before as a Nova. Scrappers are simply not that exciting for me, because there's nothing exciting to me about playing Superman. There never was. |
Kheldian forms are an awful mechanic. It could have been good, but they lead to an AT that is poorly designed. That's my beef with Kheldians. All you've been arguing in this thread is that people who don't like Kheldians must like Superman. It's you that's biased. You can't see that people could have objections to the Kheldian AT that are substantive and real. It's a crappy argument you're making here. If you like Khelds, bully for you. But that doesn't give you any purchase to insult those who don't.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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OK. But I already said that if you just enjoy Kheldians then that's cool. We're discussing effectiveness. So what's your point?|
Originally Posted by NightmareWyvern
Wrong. The game is about having fun. Winning,losing,DPS,drops,inf,survivability, and all the stats you can fit on your "spreadsheet of heroes" don't mean diddly squat if your not having fun. PERIOD.
If you ask me Khelds are the best AT in the game followed by blasters and corruptors because I find them the most fun. On the other hand widows,scrappers, and masterminds are "fail" because I do not find them fun. Notice how power does not equal fun. In the end there is no right and wrong, no 1337 or fail. There is only personal preference. |
EDIT: Why do you even feel the need to justify something as subjective as "fun"? If you find it fun, why does it even matter what I think? Or are you trying to convince yourself?
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Umm... Remember, I was responding to your point that Scrappers aren't a generalist AT. They are. They have all they need to succeed in this game. That's a fact. I never said anything about Blasters not having superior damage. Not sure where you got that.|
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
Ummm, what? Range doesn't matter? So blasters don't have superior damage capabilities to a Scrapper because they have so much ranged and AOE capability? Okay.
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My position (None of these comments need to be read in context, they stand alone):
- Kheldians are OK, but not particularly effective as an AT.
- My reasoning is that I believe that the forms are a poor mechanic used to justify overly weakening the human base form. Also, I don't enjoy the inherent because of its uselessness while solo.
- I would prefer a Kheldian AT, where the forms are more of a choice. I believe that after the recent buffs, Nova qualifies, but Castle, by admission holds status protection hostage in dwarf form to make it attractive.
- If you disagree with the above and nevertheless find Kheldians fun, great. I do not. But I also don't have any quarrel with people for enjoying them.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Wrong. They function quite *well.* And have before IOs. Without purples and hamis. You do not need a "eight or nine billion infamy" build. Do IOs help? Sure. For the same reason they help every OTHER AT - they stretch slots and add, in set bonuses, other capabilities.|
Originally Posted by King_Moloch
I think they were designed to be utter crap until you have the eight or nine billion infamy to pump into them to make them shine. And they DO shine, holy god. But unlike the VEAT's which were designed to function as advertised out of the box, I look at HEAT's as a character you make when you KNOW you are going to invest in them as a project. Just read the guides on the Kheld forums. Pretty much every guide there cites only uniques and purps and rate Hami O's in their builds. There's a reason for that. Without them, Khelds fail. With them, Khelds are able to really blow pretty much everything else out of the water, or at least give them a pretty good run for their money.. |
Why do the guides mention IOs? Why does *every other* AT's set of guides, "give me a build" answers and the like mention them now? Were they also utterly crippled before IOs as you seem to want to paint khelds as? They're put in there now because they're a fact of life, and bring advantages standard SOs don't.
(That, btw, is also why I tend to ignore any guides these days - there's so much "look for these sets that give X much extra recharge/softcapping defense/etc" it's rather pointless to ask how something plays as it levels, or "hey, fighting through this at level 25/30/etc" - the answer seems to be "Get IOs and cap something." Unless you're asking about MMs from about 18-25, in which case, the answer's "Just suffer through the demolitionists, it gets better.")
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I wonder where the heck these numbers even come from, are these PvP sets or something?|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Wrong. They function quite *well.* And have before IOs. Without purples and hamis. You do not need a "eight or nine billion infamy" build.
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I don't think I even spent 10 million on my Warshade and she does very well.
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Here your experience and mine differs. To me Khelds have never actually performed well enough to put them on par with a conventional AT, while the VEAT's not only work as advertised out of the box, they do so without sacrificing anything essential. They are still viable and intuitive and fun. To me, khelds are the opposite of that. They don't work as advertised, they aren't intuitive to play, and to me that pretty much robs me of any fun I could have with them. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Wrong. They function quite *well.* And have before IOs. Without purples and hamis. You do not need a "eight or nine billion infamy" build. Do IOs help? Sure. For the same reason they help every OTHER AT - they stretch slots and add, in set bonuses, other capabilities.
Why do the guides mention IOs? Why does *every other* AT's set of guides, "give me a build" answers and the like mention them now? Were they also utterly crippled before IOs as you seem to want to paint khelds as? They're put in there now because they're a fact of life, and bring advantages standard SOs don't. (That, btw, is also why I tend to ignore any guides these days - there's so much "look for these sets that give X much extra recharge/softcapping defense/etc" it's rather pointless to ask how something plays as it levels, or "hey, fighting through this at level 25/30/etc" - the answer seems to be "Get IOs and cap something." Unless you're asking about MMs from about 18-25, in which case, the answer's "Just suffer through the demolitionists, it gets better.") |
While an argument could be made that because khelds existed before IO's that the addition of IO's to the game isn't what makes them viable. I could not disagree more. I remember a period of months, waiting for CoV to go live, where I was on pretty much daily on virtue with my tank, and ran into khelds so rarely that I usually sent them a tell to the effect of "wow, you have balls. Good luck dude". More often than not, I got back a message to the tune of "yeah, just experimenting, don't try this at home".
So of course your mileage will vary. I believe that khelds really are screwed as an AT in general, and without IO set bonuses to bolster them, they are avoided because of their long list of drawbacks and counterintuitive play. While I think having a HEAT is a fantastic idea, I think that HEAT should probably play a little more like the other AT's.
So like I said, matter of personal experience and choice. When I'm making teams, I don't look for khelds as a general rule. If I can find ANY other AT to fill that slot with, I'll take them. Why? Partly because I haven't had particularly shining experiences with kheld players in the past year or so, and generally find them to be a hassle that I end up having to work around. I don't like having to concentrate my healing on the crazy crab person with delusions of tankerhood when I've got other folks that need my attention.
I also don't think khelds really stack up. I find them, to this day (barring massive IO slotting) lackluster and deficient in a normal team setting.Of course, in the right hands (the ones with evidently limitless funds), they are unstoppable juggernauts, but I have only once had the pleasure of running across such a player. Fun to watch, really. But he was hardly representative of the khelds I've encountered recently.
So, all told, so far as I am concerned, khelds are what I add to a team when I can't find anything else to fill with. Other than that, I think they need a serious looking at. There has to be something that can be done to put them on par with other AT's.
Stand UP.
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<scratches head>
<reads the thread again>
Ok......no offense at all intended to anyone, but I really don't understand how you can possibly have the impression of Kheldians sucking because my own experience directly contradicts it. I'm currently leveling my first Kheldian, a Warshade. He hit 38 about 30 minutes ago. I have found him to be pretty squishy outside of Dwarf, yes, but it doesn't even begin to approach the levels of "fail" so many have described in this thread. To be honest my first Dominator at CoV launch felt FAR weaker than my Warshade.
His damage output is good (in Nova with Sunless Mire going it's downright crazy at times), he has no downtime whatsoever, he has a powerful heal that is up pretty much as often as I want it, I can cap his resistances with the push of a button, he can pop into Dwarf for extra survivability if a pull goes badly. I'm just not seeing the "fail" here.
Granted, when I am soloing him I do have to use strategy and not just charge in like a bull in a china shop. Is that what puts people off? That Kheldians do take some strategy to not faceplant? I mean no disrespect to anyone with that statement, I'm just trying to understand the meter by which everyone is judging them.
I think there are a few people on here stuggling to seperate their own dislike of particular mechanics with any actual facts that hint at underpoweredness.
I have seen lots of people say HEATs are underpowered but not a single person has proved it and never will because it just isn't true.
The only problem is that it is easy to make a poor kheld build, and even easier to play one badly and it is a lottery if you get a good one or a bad one even more than any other class. But I like that, having a well built and played kheld is like being in an exclusive club, and I find my Warshade so fun and powerful that I find it really hard not to think LRN2PLAY whenever anyone tries to talk about underpowerdness.
So to those saying Kheldians are underpowered you first need to talk about which kheldians (I will give you that PB's are underpowered) and then you are going to have to show me some numbers. Fun is subjective but effectiveness isn't and if you want to talk about it you need facts, which I have yet to see.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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I've noted that a lot of those on the Khelds-aren't-Fail side of this debate play High End Warshades. What if PBs were the only Khelds? What would your argument on this thread be then?
Note: my main is a Human Only PB. I've never played a Warshade past lvl 14, but I hear over and over how Warshades are much better at high levels. So...flip it? If PBs were the only HEAT, are they 'Fail' then?
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I wouldn't say PB's are 'fail' because that is a bit too insulting but I would definately say they need something else.|
Originally Posted by Socorro
I've noted that a lot of those on the Khelds-aren't-Fail side of this debate play High End Warshades. What if PBs were the only Khelds? What would your argument on this thread be then?
Note: my main is a Human Only PB. I've never played a Warshade past lvl 14, but I hear over and over how Warshades are much better at high levels. So...flip it? If PBs were the only HEAT, are they 'Fail' then? |
Warshades may be Jack-of-all-trades, but with a heavy emphasis on causing mass AoE carnage, and seem to me like 95% blaster + 80% controller + 80% scrapper/tank, where PB's don't feel like that have enough of an emphasis on anything really. They also aren't set up to take advantage of shapeshifting in the same way Warshades are so the forms do feel limiting for PB's.
Edit: I also don't think it is just high-end Warshades that are good, even on SO's a Warshade is imho powerful at all levels and the only character I have played where I looked forward to almost every single power or even the slots!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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That is completely subjective as my personal experience with both Kheldian types Peacebringers and Warshades contradicts your statement at its very core.
Originally Posted by EvilGeko
Kheldians mechanics are just poorly executed. The forms feel tacked on, not integral to the AT. They limit the human form, not enhance it.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
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This is utter nonsense. I mean nonsense on a level that is staggering. The objective of the game is to defeat your enemies. You do this by inflicting damage and surviving. Period. Whether you have fun while you do this is, of course, important, but has no bearing on the mechanics involved or the rules of how things work. Fun is a subjective issue, and as such cannot be objectively compared in an evaluation. |
Originally Posted by NightmareWyvern
Wrong. The game is about having fun. Winning,losing,DPS,drops,inf,survivability, and all the stats you can fit on your "spreadsheet of heroes" don't mean diddly squat if your not having fun. PERIOD.
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If you ask me Khelds are the best AT in the game followed by blasters and corruptors because I find them the most fun. On the other hand widows,scrappers, and masterminds are "fail" because I do not find them fun. Notice how power does not equal fun. In the end there is no right and wrong, no 1337 or fail. There is only personal preference. |
Too many alts to list.
Just quick reply...I've only read the first page of posts but...
I have a lvl 50 Warshade (human form only...granted he does have the dwarf/tank form but....usually don't use it). My WS was fun and even better in teams...I loved being on a team with a Kin or FF or some type of buffer so that we got nice team spawn sizes, get Eclipse off, kill one mob then Unchain Essence and KABOOM! Quite a few mobs are down. So much fun. It's great having a nuke without the -end recovery of the nuke. I only have common IOs in him so there is nothing perma about him unfortunately. I would like to change that but...still getting other characters up to 50.
Now that brings me to my lvl 40 PB. Wow...what a difference. In teams he's not really fun at all (tbh, haven't really solo'ed him that much). All the KB is annoying (usually on teams I run with don't need the KB for 'damage mitigation'). Only having 2 ranged attacks and then 3 melee attacks (don't use the PBAoE attack that much though). Again human only, but he does have the Dwarf form and uses it more than my WS ever did. Again, to be honest, I'd love for this toon to get on a 'farm team' and just get pl'ed to 50...or something...just isn't that much fun yet. *shrugs*
And no, I don't like the Nova form...don't like the look of the squid...
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That emphasized part is the inane argument because if an AT is not fun, then there's no point to arguing how effective it is because it has failed to be effective in doing the most important part of its raison d'être which is, to provide entertainment. It doesn't matter to me how effective any class can be if its core gameplay concepts put me off playing it because they do not feel fun.
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
This is equally nonsensical. There are objective means for comparison of the effectiveness of an AT. You can measure DPS. You can measure defenses. You can measure control effectiveness. These are all measurable quantities. Fun, however, is not one of them by any means. To say that your argument of fun trumps objective measurements of effectiveness is just plain inane.
Which is why this whole debate about Kheldians feeling like "fail" cannot be debated on the grounds of performance and effectiveness. Those people who value performance and effectiveness as major contributors to their personal sense of fun will never be happy with Kheldians because one of the design goals of Kheldians is that they are never allowed to be better at any doctrine than any of the normal AT's.
While this design-goal is true and implemented, performance-enthusiasts will feel Kheldians fail them, but Kheldians-enthusiasts will regard any level gained on a Kheldian a victory! If CoH was a game with heavy "raids" where you would have to have very specific AT requirements and each player had to play their AT in just the "right" way to accomplish the task at hand, I'd say Kheldians are a design-failure, but as long as CoH can be about being effective in killing enemies to some and about getting to Lv50 for others, and still about the character stories for others, judging classes by their performance is only an argument that can be justified between two performance-enthusiasts.
Kheldians are WAI, it's just that some players intend for their Kheldians to perform in ways Kheldians were specifically designed not to.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
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If there's a single lesson to take from this thread, it's that the epic archetypes need a bit more variety. There are people who, for reasons that will remain a mystery to me most likely forever, really love Kheldians. But there are also plenty who hate them with every fiber of their beings. For a normal AT, that's just fine. Not everybody has to like every AT in the game. For the AT you unlock as a reward for hitting level 50, it's really inappropriate. Port in something more like the VEATs for heroes to use - PPD or Longbow or something - to broaden the appeal of these unlockable AT's, leaving fewer people feeling. . . cheated? Cheated is too strong a statement, I think, but it's the right flavor. Deeply disappointed, anyway. And send a few Warshades over to the villain side, too. I'm pretty sure before VEATs were unveiled, there was discussion of doing just that.
That's my take on the subject, anyway.
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
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Originally Posted by LordXenite
That emphasized part is the inane argument because if an AT is not fun, then there's no point to arguing how effective it is because it has failed to be effective in doing the most important part of its raison d'être which is, to provide entertainment. It doesn't matter to me how effective any class can be if its core gameplay concepts put me off playing it because they do not feel fun.
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Again, we return to inanity. Fun in not a comparable quantity as it is wholly subjective. What is fun for one person may be like nails on a chalkboard for another. Thus arguing over what is fun is just plain stupid. You can certainly express what is fun to you, and that is fair enough. However to pull that as in any way relevant when people are arguing effectiveness is daft.
If I'm designing an AT I can balance and account for effectiveness. I can't necessarily account for fun. This thread shows a vast difference in what ATs people think are fun. Controllers are some of the most effective builds in the game as are scrappers. Personally I don't much care for either AT. I know they are powerful, and have some, but just don't like the play style. However I am capable of objectively evaluating how effective they are. I don't let some subjective fun measure intrude into the comparison. That ability to subjectively evaluate effectiveness appears to be pretty rare around here.
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Which is why this whole debate about Kheldians feeling like "fail" cannot be debated on the grounds of performance and effectiveness. Those people who value performance and effectiveness as major contributors to their personal sense of fun will never be happy with Kheldians because one of the design goals of Kheldians is that they are never allowed to be better at any doctrine than any of the normal AT's. |
Rubbish. You can certainly evaluate kheldians on the basis of effectiveness. If someone is peformance forcused, then khelds will not measure up. They might be fun to some, and not to others, but that is not an objective quantity capable of comparison any more than "I like blue" vs. "I like green".
If the person who says they "feel like fail" is making his claim on the basis of comparable effectivness, he will be right.
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While this design-goal is true and implemented, performance-enthusiasts will feel Kheldians fail them, but Kheldians-enthusiasts will regard any level gained on a Kheldian a victory! If CoH was a game with heavy "raids" where you would have to have very specific AT requirements and each player had to play their AT in just the "right" way to accomplish the task at hand, I'd say Kheldians are a design-failure, but as long as CoH can be about being effective in killing enemies to some and about getting to Lv50 for others, and still about the character stories for others, judging classes by their performance is only an argument that can be justified between two performance-enthusiasts. |
This is about as insightful as saying rain is wet and the day is light. You've just said that there is no point in a subjective argument about like. Of course that's what I've been saying and what you bothered to 'dispute'. You could just soon argue which AT is best for costume contests or role play. Neither or measurable in a quantitative, objective manner so any such debate is just blowing smoke.
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Kheldians are WAI, it's just that some players intend for their Kheldians to perform in ways Kheldians were specifically designed not to.
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Too many alts to list.
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And you seem to be acting like you expect something else?|
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
Yes, people expect Kheldians to perform as well as other classes. They do not. As such some people are disapointed. They were designed to be jack of all trades, and certainly master of none.
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Anyone who has problems with Khelds seems to be expecting them to beat some other AT in some aspect, that is not what they are meant to be.
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British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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I would really like to see someone try rather than just spout rubbish.
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Originally Posted by docbuzzard
You can certainly evaluate kheldians on the basis of effectiveness.
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Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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Of my three lvl 50 Kheldians, two are Peacebringers. My opinion doesn't change. I'll also point out for the heck of it that of the two, PBs *are* preferred over Warshades in some situations - dealing with "hard" targets and PVP, most often - specifically because their buffs and heals are completely self-contained as opposed to relying on enemies (living or dead.)
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Originally Posted by Socorro
I've noted that a lot of those on the Khelds-aren't-Fail side of this debate play High End Warshades. What if PBs were the only Khelds? What would your argument on this thread be then?
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This would be an excellent opportunity for you to do so, then. I'd especially be interested in an analysis that shows that Khelds can be built to perform well using only SOs and HOs, since those were what was available when they were designed.|
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
I would really like to see someone try rather than just spout rubbish.
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I'd do it myself, but I'm not terribly interested in having people pick apart my analysis on the one hand while decrying me as a fun-hating spreadsheet jockey on the other. Also, Kheld performance analysis is an unusually difficult problem owing to the complexity of form-changing attack chains. No other AT has a potential 3 second difference in the cast time of two consecutive attack powers, depending on the order in which they are activated. I could analyze attack chains that stay in human, nova, or dwarf form, but then I'd be accused of doing it wrong.
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And you would be if your goal was to produce the most effective TriForm attack chain. Especially if you solo.
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
I could analyze attack chains that stay in human, nova, or dwarf form, but then I'd be accused of doing it wrong.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
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Couldn't agree more Jabby. This about sums it up exactly.
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Originally Posted by Jabbrwock
If there's a single lesson to take from this thread, it's that the epic archetypes need a bit more variety. There are people who, for reasons that will remain a mystery to me most likely forever, really love Kheldians. But there are also plenty who hate them with every fiber of their beings. For a normal AT, that's just fine. Not everybody has to like every AT in the game. For the AT you unlock as a reward for hitting level 50, it's really inappropriate. Port in something more like the VEATs for heroes to use - PPD or Longbow or something - to broaden the appeal of these unlockable AT's, leaving fewer people feeling. . . cheated? Cheated is too strong a statement, I think, but it's the right flavor. Deeply disappointed, anyway. And send a few Warshades over to the villain side, too. I'm pretty sure before VEATs were unveiled, there was discussion of doing just that.
That's my take on the subject, anyway. |
Stand UP.
FIGHT BACK!
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Wanted to speak to this really quick while I have time.|
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
I have seen lots of people say HEATs are underpowered but not a single person has proved it and never will because it just isn't true. |
It's interesting to me that the people playing CoH seem to have decided that the burden of design efficacy falls squarely on the playerbase instead of the development team.
To this I say, "absolutely not".
I am the subscriber, the player, the consumer, the customer. It is my responsibility to look at what I have bought and say "yay", or "nay". It is NOT my responsibility to dissect that product and determine every possible factor that contributes to it's failure.
That is the job of the development team.
I will never, ever post a spreadsheet or run numbers for the sake of proving a point to a fellow subscriber to an online video game. I am not the developer. I am the subscriber. My role is to evaluate, not to code and test.
This assumption that unless we all memorize charts, tables, and spreadsheets our experience is invalid is incredible to me. Since I (and many other players) refuse to do so, we are somehow not permitted to have or voice an opinion regarding our experience with the game? Nonsense. The only measuring stick that should matter is personal enjoyment.
Is it fun? If the answer is not yes, then stop playing.
I applaud the efforts of the forum goers that invest their efforts in the crunchier side of the game, but I do not accept that it's the responsibility of the player to do so.
So, Princess, if you're waiting for people to quantify their responses regarding a subjective experience on a video game, keep waiting.
No one owes you that.
Stand UP.
FIGHT BACK!
I find myself agreeing with DocBuzzard that 'fun' really shouldn't be used when comparing ATs and Builds. Apparently, many people in the past found 'man-builds' fun - that doesn't mean they're as effective as other builds are in best doing what this game entails: defeating enemies and completing missions. I'm not saying that fun doesn't matter, but it is entirely subjective. I don't play Masterminds, even though they can beat GMs, because they don't seem fun to me. But it's quite easy to see they're an extremely effective AT when it comes to what this game requires. I also don't find Tri-Form 'dancing' Khelds fun either *shrug*
Do Khelds defeat enemies and help complete missions (or help do so) as efficiently as other ATs, either solo or on teams? I don't really know, but that is something that could be quantified.
That statement if far too simplistic, and thank goodness this game is NOT that simple. Heck, it isn't even that simple for Scrappers, either: they have access to controls and debuffs that can help them survive long enough (or do damage more easily) for their DPS to do the trick.
Moloch, you do not need a ton of money to build an effective Kheldian. I'm not sure what builds you're looking at on the Kheld forums, but pretty much the standard that many cite are the builds in Plasma's guide... and he was talking BEFORE IOs. He has builds for you to make without them.
Kheldians can benefit a lot from IO'ss (as can any AT, though perhaps more than some), especially because of the many powers they need to put slots in. However, they can work without them. I only have a few powers IO'd out on my Peacebringer, and he's doing quite well at level 40. He'll be even more effective with more IO's, but that's not saying anything new for any AT.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory