Why do HEATs feel like fail?

Ah, thanks for clearing that up. I hope I didn't come across that way in any of my posts. Such was not my intent.

I see where you're coming from, and my experience is only with warshades at this point, so I can only speak from that side of the fence. In my eyes, a warshade needs to have a skilled "driver" to reach full potential. Again, in my opinion, a kheldian who stays in one form for an entire mission, or even one entire fight, isn't living up to his potential.

As a "dancing" warshade, I feel that I can dish out more dps than a blaster for short periods of time. I feel I can tank much better than many tanks for short periods of time. I feel able to lock down groups better than some controllers for short periods of time. My favorite trick so far is to survive an alpha in dwarf, double mire and blast away. If I'm only doing 80% of two different jobs, that makes me about 160% of a teammate. Being able to rotate through roles at the drop of a hat makes me feel special, no matter what group I'm in. I find my contribution peaks on TFs which have several factions of enemies to deal with.

If I could change anything about kheldians, it would be to make the forms shift faster. This is a balance altering change though, which would have to prove that Kheldians are in need of a buff as they are. I'd have trouble doing that because of the aforementioned reason: I already feel quite powerful.

Actually, I think it would be nice to have the inherent buff work both ways too. As it stands, many teams don't find Kheldians worth the risk of an invite. I feel this is because a poorly played Kheldian is more common than a good one, and a poor one is only 80% of what the specialized player would be, even if he was also poorly played. Having the Kheldian passively buff the other players might tip the scales enough so that they are worth the risk to invite. This is of course subject to the previous caveat; Kheldians need to be proven lacking for any more buffs to be applied.

Actually, Controllers require more knowledge of play mechanics, and vastly better reward that knowledge when used.

Kheldians are OK. They aren't fail, but they aren't anything special either. Kheldians are great for folks who like their flashy "cool" powersets. But on straight effectiveness, they are middle of the road. Not the worst at anything, but not the best either.

I would also question your belief that Kheldian even require much knowledge of the play mechanics. Certainly not more than most ATs. Defenders and Controllers require more thought IMO. And that thought is greatly rewarded.

Cerebral = Tedious

Just like with Scrappers, VEATs can be played mindlessly. Or a skilled player can leverage their gifts into things that are amazing.

With Kheldians, you have all this flash, and that flash isn't without substance, but there's a clear limit to what you can do. It's not interesting to me in the least, it's very limiting. More limiting than every other AT in the game.

Take form-shifting. Presented by many as a means for Khelds to perform the functions of several ATs. But those forms greatly reduce the tactical options of the player while in the form. Contrast that to, for example, a Shield Scrapper. If the fit hits the shan, a shield scrapper can easily move in to take the role of Tanker and protect his or her team. But doing so requires only a change in tactics. The Scrapper doesn't lose their melee damage role, they simply have another role to handle at the same time.

It's even worse than that, actually. Not only is a poorly-played Kheld weaker than the specialist he's imitating, but he also brings with him more (and more dangerous) additional enemies than any other AT. One might say that the unspoken Kheld inherent is to nerf whatever team they're on, or rather to buff the encounters faced by that team. In order to be a good choice on a team as a Kheld, either you have to be good enough to be worth Cysts, or the team you're joining has to be good enough not to care. So, yes, Khelds are the "challenge AT" - in a way that makes them deeply undesirable as teammates for anyone not looking for extra challenge.

And yet their inherent directly benefits only them, and requires a team to function. That's incoherent design.

You're too kind...no seriously. I have much stronger words for the folly that is the Kheldian inherent.

The same could be said for the Defender's inherent, but at least Defenders bring a lot to the team.

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Originally Posted by EvilGeko Cerebral = Tedious

I want to thank you for that because you've saved me the trouble of actually analyzing things and explaining things in detail, so here's the TL;DR:

To me Kheldians feel like an Epic Win because I actually have to put in the effort to fight the enemies. With my VEATs, every victory feels like it's actually the Devs who have won the battle rather than me because of the passive defenses and defense-multipliers VEATs have.

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Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan ...yes, Khelds are the "challenge AT" - in a way that makes them deeply undesirable as teammates for anyone not looking for extra challenge. And yet their inherent directly benefits only them, and requires a team to function. That's incoherent design.

Actually, if you think about it, it's a perfect design for a LEADER, in the sense that if the team stands united behind the Kheldian, the whole team will benefit because the Kheldian will be able to spearhead the team's efforts to win the fight.

Sadly, most forumites I've seen, that speak against Kheldians seem to care only about combat performance and how to most effectively defeat as many enemies in as little time as possible. They require that Kheldian limitations be removed and that Kheldians get MOAR DPS NAO and other such things.

Clearly, the Devs, bless their RP'ing minds, actually care enough to supply us with different themes and different sources of entertaining ways to defeat our enemies, some faster than others. We call this "having options" and also "variety", and it's been proven a good thing... if not for that, we'd all be playing City of TankMages.

Yes, as I said, tedious. You're fighting the deficits inherent in the AT, but still managing to be successful. I understand and respect your grit. It's that same tenacity that's allowed me to get my Kheldian's to high level.

But I don't fool myself into thinking that this somehow makes them harder to play. Just tiresome. Yes, VEATs handle the standard content with ease. If I want to "put effort in to fight the enemies" then I up the difficulty or take on bigger game. And I get rewarded for the trouble.

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Originally Posted by EU_Damz See i find that warshades are OVERPOWERED. Once slotted correctly and used to their playstyle, you can basically do insane amount of damage with also capped resists.

When everything works according to plan, sure... a Warshade can be a whirlwind dervish of destruction, and with smart inspirations-use all it's all good, but it still requires players to actively do the work.

Getting into a spawn and activating Eclipse still carries some risk.

Scrappers, don't need anyone to spearhead anything for them. The best of them can do on their own, what a team is expected to be able to do. There's a reason they specifically mentioned Scrappers when talking about the new difficulty slider.

Tankers, don't need a spearhead. THEY ARE THE SPEARHEAD!! They can walk into situations that even the most well built Khelds can't.

Controllers and Defenders united grant themselves and their minions the power to do anything.

Blasters can melt most things so long as a real Tanker is there to handle what's left.

Where's Kheldians in that picture?

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Originally Posted by EvilGeko Yes, as I said, tedious. You're fighting the deficits inherent in the AT, but still managing to be successful. I understand and respect your grit. It's that same tenacity that's allowed me to get my Kheldian's to high level. But I don't fool myself into thinking that this somehow makes them harder to play. Just tiresome.

They are harder to play and tiresome to play if and for as long as you try to play them using the playstyle you've gotten yourself used to while leveling up a "normal" AT to Lv50.

I'll also add another point of reference that people are going to flame me for... I've never classified Kheldians as a DPS-centric AT while most people I read on the forums, do.

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Originally Posted by EvilGeko Yes, VEATs handle the standard content with ease. If I want to "put effort in to fight the enemies" then I up the difficulty or take on bigger game. And I get rewarded for the trouble.

And so do we. Haven't you seen Kheldians fighting purple-cons yet?

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Originally Posted by EvilGeko Scrappers, don't need anyone to spearhead anything for them. The best of them can do on their own, what a team is expected to be able to do. There's a reason they specifically mentioned Scrappers when talking about the new difficulty slider. Tankers, don't need a spearhead. THEY ARE THE SPEARHEAD!! They can walk into situations that even the most well built Khelds can't. Controllers and Defenders united grant themselves and their minions the power to do anything. Blasters can melt most things so long as a real Tanker is there to handle what's left. Where's Kheldians in that picture?

Kheldians are blasting everything from above while the team is actually rushing to the spawn, then landing in the middle of the spawn in Dwarf form, firing some AoE's and then fight is over before it has began at least for most of the minions. The rest is even easier because the team has arrived. Sorry to burst your little scenario, because that's exactly how I play my Kheldians on mixed teams that are not my usual All Kheldian teams.

I've been confronted about this playstyle of mine exactly once, by a Tanker who tried to lead the team and basically wasn't happy with how "independent" I was being... You do the math.

Where are Defenders in that picture? Controllers can do anything a Defender can do. Not as well, but well enough that a Defender is redundant if you have a Controller. Once Going Rogue goes live, Defenders will be doubly redundant, as Corrupters will be crossing over with the same power sets and more damage.

For that matter where do Scrappers fit in that picture? A Blaster and a Tanker is better than two Scrappers if you are leveraging AOE damage and aggro management. A team composed of one Tanker, multiple blasters and controllers will cover every required role. Aggro management, damage dealing, control, buffing, debuffing and healing. I have even seen some people put forth the argument that Tankers aren't needed either, since Controllers can completely lock down a spawn.

I'm not trying to disrespect Defenders or Scrappers. I'm trying to show that your analysis is biased against the HEATs. If you are going to treat archetypes as nothing but cogs in a combat machine, then pare out HEATS, Defenders and Scrappers. They might bring something to a team, but they aren't needed. I'm not necessarily refuting your argument, but I disagree with your conclusion, because you specify only the HEATs as being unneeded.

The original hero archetypes were designed to be parts of a whole. Tankers, Defenders and Controllers were all designed to do low damage, so that they would be discouraged from soloing. Blasters were given no defenses and low hit points for the same reason. Scrappers were the only AT designed for soloing, an acknowledgment that some people want to solo in an MMO.

HEATS were introduced early, and followed the same team design concept. Since all roles were already taken, they were made to be the generalists of a City of Specialists.

The current developers have abandoned that design philosophy and have buffed several of these ATs. They encourage teaming, but don't try to force players into teams. They have shied away from complete redesigns, preferring to tweak the existing designs. They aren't likely to go back to that design philosophy, to create an artificial role for the HEATs.

The VEATs on the other hand were designed recently. The VEATs were designed to augment a team, to encourage teaming, rather than be buffed up by a team, as a penalty for not teaming. And all Villain ATs were designed to be more independent than most Hero ATs.

Some players cling to that system of reducing ATs to cogs in a combat machine. It is undeniably efficient. I find it boring. I'm glad that I can solo my blasters, or find a team. Likewise I'm happy that my Tankers can scrap or taunt.

A team can play and have fun with any players, or they can focus on efficiency and spend the extra time and effort to build the most efficient specialist team.

I like my HEATs more than I like my VEATs. I won't try to justify my preference with any arguments that the HEATS are better. I just like them better. I'm well aware a specialist can outperform a generalist in the specialists' specialty. But sometimes I prefer to play generalist.

Indeed.

Probably nowhere, since they're off soloing their own missions set for 8 players! But remember the point, Kheldians as this "leader". Not discussing team usefulness, just the team need to wait for a Kheldian to "spearhead" their missions with the silly transformations, while the team could be killing.

Again, you didn't read my comments in context of the discussion and the point I was responding to. The point I was responding to, was that Kheldians are not needed to SPEARHEAD a team. And they aren't. No one is. Perhaps Tankers for some content, but that's it. That's the point I made, and you just agreed with it above. Thank you.

Yes, and they are woefully behind the other generalist AT, Scrappers. As others have pointed out, this is because of the flaws inherent in the design of the AT.

No argument with that point, but then that's not what's under discussion. We're here talking about effectiveness. Why do HEATs "feel like fail?" They feel like fail, because they are not as effective as most Hero ATs. It's that simple. I happen to think that well played Kheldians are middle of the road. Not bad, but not great either.

That has nothing to do with how fun people find them. There's no need for anyone to justify their enjoyment.

You are right about that. I was responding to your comments without the context of the comment you were responding to. Still I think you are too vehement in your dismissal of the HEATs. I was in large part responding to your tone.

I do agree that HEATs are middle of the road. They are neither awesomely bad nor awesomely powerful. Frankly, that doesn't 'feel like fail' to me. That feels like the right place to be.

Many, if not most, of the characters I've played are painful below SO's level (and stamina). After that, you're getting your attack chain going, it's slotted well, your defenses are going, and so forth.

It's similar for Kheldians, although there are certain moments prior to that that kick in the awesome factor for me. The first is being able to use a travel power in the tutorial. Another one is unlocking the nova form. You finally have a mobile assault platform to use while other ATs are deciding on whether to get combat jumping, hover, or what. Then you get your dwarf form, and you can take some damage as well as dishing it out.

As is the case with other ATs, these won't really shine brightly until well slotted, but the foundation is there. I'm not saying they don't need some tweaking wither, because most everyone who plays Khelds will agree they do need some rework.

I'd strongly recommend sticking it out unitl you slot with SO's and play a few levels and see what you think at that point. Another thing that might help is to find some fellow Kheldian players out there and get on a team. We have an all-Khled SG on Infinity and play in all-Kheld teams on Thursday nights, and it's normally a real blast. You can see what a well slotted and experienced Kheld can be and what they can do. Then you might learn to love it.

This game is about killing and surviving while doing same. Scrappers can do both. Control and range are irrelevant when you can do the above.

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Originally Posted by EvilGeko This game is about killing and surviving while doing same. Scrappers can do both. Control and range are irrelevant when you can do the above.

Thank you for saying this as you just demonstrated your bias with it.

Every class in this game is designed to kill and survive, they simply do it by employing different concepts and different gameplay mechanisms. Melee classes being the most straightforward because they do not have many weaknesses that ensure they need rely on anything more than DPS to kill and survive.

Every class, other than Scrappers, has weaknesses designed into that class that require the player to figure out ways to kill and survive. Kheldians are a bit more intricate than other classes. Kheldians have both melee and ranged abilities but lack major characteristics in each doctrine and so the player can't simply rely on either doctrine to be successful when solo. When a Kheldian is form-dancing, or when a Kheldian is on a team, then the potential increases and the Kheldian classes become more interesting to play.

If everyone playing this game was interested in nothing more than pure DPS, everyone would be playing Scrappers. The fact that not everyone is, simply suggests some people are still interested in something more than chasing enemies to smack'em in the face, and for me, any other class is superior to Scrappers because most other classes actually offer both strategies since I can smack stuff in the face both at melee and at range but I'm required to employ tactics other than chase-your-enemy and beat it!

What's more, Kheldians feel epic to me because when I'm in Nova, blasting things, I know how vulnerable I am, and I'm just waiting for those Bosses to come chase me down so I can shift to Dwarf and whack'em in the face as a Dwarf with awesome damage-resist numbers in comparison to what I had a moment before as a Nova. Scrappers are simply not that exciting for me, because there's nothing exciting to me about playing Superman. There never was.

The best game is the one that lets some people play their Superman, while others get to play their Aquaman that can turn into SpiderBatMan at the press of a button.

In my experience with HEAT's, it all comes down to the same thing as the Energy Armor set for brutes.

On their own, you are pretty dead on. HEAT's are absolute failure. This is because they are anemic in every way. Second rate blaster/troller/scrapper. Just like /Energy Armor.

Thing is, I believe they are designed this way on purpose. There is really no AT that can benefit from as many different IO set bonus combinations and use them to shine as drastically as a PB, WS or any character with the Energy Defense/Armor set.

I think they were designed to be utter crap until you have the eight or nine billion infamy to pump into them to make them shine. And they DO shine, holy god. But unlike the VEAT's which were designed to function as advertised out of the box, I look at HEAT's as a character you make when you KNOW you are going to invest in them as a project.

Just read the guides on the Kheld forums. Pretty much every guide there cites only uniques and purps and rate Hami O's in their builds. There's a reason for that. Without them, Khelds fail. With them, Khelds are able to really blow pretty much everything else out of the water, or at least give them a pretty good run for their money.

I think that much comes down to personal choice. This is my second account. If I still had my first, I think I wouldn't have deleted the 43 WS I had on it due to total failure. Understanding now that they are designed to be inf sinks and can take advantage of that like no other AT can, I would probably have kept him around. These days, I don't really touch blueside anymore, so it's not that big an issue.

If you have limitless inf available and are tired of the toons you've been playing, I say give them a whirl. You'll be amazed at how they can blossom.

If you don't... Don't touch them or you're setting yourself up for a complete disappointment.

That doesn't hold up to examination when IO's actually came after HEATs were in the game.

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Mmm, I think it does, really. Prior to the addition of IO's you really never saw khelds with the exception of the few hardcore players determined to make them work despite their many, many shortcomings. After the IO's hit and something could actually be done to make them viable as AT's, it really picked up for them. It depends on perspective and personal experience I suppose.

I personally deleted my WS around 40ish, as I found the AT lackluster and more effort than it was worth compared to any other AT I had played (with the exception of defenders, which I just never got the hang of. Kind of wish I had, as I've seen some pretty spectacular ones). These days, if I decided to transfer a few billion inf over to blueside and build a kheld properly I'm sure I would be impressed.

I hated khelds until I understood what they're for. (at least as far as I'm concerned) Blueside they ARE the endgame timesink. Their what you continue to put effort into until you're satisfied with the result once you've done everything else. And in that capacity I think they're a pretty good idea. Redside could use something like that. I wouldn't say scrap their VEAT's, as in my experience they are far and away a hell of a lot more fun than just about anything else I've played. But I would say Redside can certainly use an endgame Erector Set AT like khelds to concentrate on putting together over the course of a few months.

Wrong. The game is about having fun. Winning,losing,DPS,drops,inf,survivability, and all the stats you can fit on your "spreadsheet of heroes" don't mean diddly squat if your not having fun. PERIOD.

If you ask me Khelds are the best AT in the game followed by blasters and corruptors because I find them the most fun. On the other hand widows,scrappers, and masterminds are "fail" because I do not find them fun. Notice how power does not equal fun.

In the end there is no right and wrong, no 1337 or fail. There is only personal preference.