Why do HEATs feel like fail?

I deleted my PB twice. Once at 50 and the second time at 30. It's a poorly constructed AT.

My WS still exists at 50. There are times it shines, usually on teams. There are times it fails miserably, usually when solo.

There is a group of people that love their kheldians because they are "difficult to master" or "a challenge instead of a cakewalk."

You can easily interpret either statement as "weak." Or "weak most of the time with occasional moments of cool."

A human only warshade with perma-eclipse, inky aspect, orbiting death and three fluffies out is certainly a sight to see and even more fun to play. right up until you have to shift to dwarf to avoid mez death and your DPS drops into the dirt.

It's an old argument but no it has nothing to do with player skill.

With the new Difficulty Slider my Warshade has probably become my most powerful soloer, if you count soloing as x8 Players and +1-3 level(s).
(Sorry if I repeat myself here)
When people often say that a Kheldian is a jack of all trades but a master of none I get a sense that they are refering to the forms, not the ATs themselves. Sure neither Dwarf can tank as well as a "real" Tanker, the same with the Novas compared to a real Blaster, but that doesn't mean when used together they cannot create something new and exciting.

I think the AT my Warshade is closest to is a Scrapper, albeit a Scrapper with a range of fancy new toys to play with. The reason I think my Warshade is like a Scrapper (Note I say like a scrapper, not play like a scrapper) is because it's a self-fuelling steamrolling machine. Sure it might not have quite the up-front damage of a Blaster, nor the survivability of a tank, it can still take out more enemies at once than either of these (In most cases) .
Also if we view a Blaster as the "King" of AoE Damage then I think a Warshade geared towards AoE damage may come close to usurping the blaster, whilst still having more self buffs and heals than it, and indeed a lot more sustainability in the area of endurance, meaning in the long run - even if we disregard staying alive - a Warshade will do more damage than most Blasters (This IS a big generalization, and I make no claim that there are no Blasters that can out damage a Warshade in the long run, that would be a world gone topsey-turvey ).

To sum it up a Warshade is the only Build I know of that can practically Hard-cap it's resistance and damage bonus at the same time, without outside buffs, if there is another build that can I'd like to hear about it

In my experience, HEATs are FREAKING AMAZING!

I've only played a warshade, though, so I can't really say anything about PBs.

I haven't had any characters blueside since I took a break after i4. I came back to the game shortly after CoV was released, rolled a mastermind and hadn't looked back until very recently.

Anyway, I started playing my warshade after reading Plasma's guide to Kheldians. (I'm too tired to link it right now) Getting to nova form was very fast, and once I had Sunless Mire I felt unstoppable. I was even better on teams, as someone else would grab aggro and I'd mire/nova everything to death faster than ... well, faster than a lot of things could.

Getting dwarf form wasn't amazing at first, but once I learned how to use the dwarf mire for a couple quick nova AoEs while the normal mire was still recharging, I loved it. I'd felt powerful the whole time, but Stygian Circle meant I never needed to rest, and from then on I've felt immensely not like fail.

I've done all the TFs up to Manticore now (even with the lvl 40 PP elites) and I haven't liked an AT as much as I like this warshade. It may be notable that I haven't done much solo, because of the inherent team bonuses. I have to be cautious on my own (I don't have eclipse yet, one level to go...), but on a team I feel greatly overpowered.

Granted, I've still been taken down. It's not an easy AT, I have to stay on my toes the whole time. As long as I'm careful, watch my health in nova, drop for stygian circle in time, and go dwarf when I'm stunned, I don't faceplant. Good keybinds help in this pursuit.

The debate in this thread has been going on since the days when these ATs were created. Back then, they were truly horrific to play solo, and even in teams you needed a ton of help to keep your endurance from bottoming out. Since then, there have been many, many improvements to them, and while I haven't played my PB in ages, I still play my WS pretty often. I went tri-form until I got SO's and then dropped Nova and haven't looked back.

Tri-form, Bi-form, Human-only, they're all viable options. They function differently solo and in teams. You are by no means "gimping" yourself by choosing one over another; base it on how you like to play. Do they dish out as much ST damage as a blaster? Probably not. Are they more resilient? Absolutely. PB's have an advantage solo, since they don't rely on large numbers of opponents to buff themselves, but with some creativity, a WS can do very well.

And for those that say that HEATs are useless solo, I have to laugh. CoH/CoV is designed to allow ANY AT to solo at a decent pace. Short of a TF or Trial, there is nothing in this game that requires you to team. If you want to experience slow soloing, make any build that has Empathy, FF, Sonic Res in it. For even more fun, pair one of those with Ice Control, Earth Control or even Fire Control. Pre-level 32, it's very slow going, but there are many ways around that - just as there are with HEATs.

Then we come to the age-old gripe about not having mez protection. Well, you do - it's called dwarf form. Yes, you don't do as much damage, but frankly, it's nothing to laugh at. Three of the five hero ATs have no inherent mez protection, so do what you're forced to do with them when fighting mezzing enemies - carry Break Free's.

HEATs mature later than the other "damage-class" ATs. Combine that with the huge number of build options, and things can get very frustrating. Unlike other builds, it's not as easy as coming to the forums and copying the latest min/max build. It will take some tweaking to get a build that fits your play style and your needs - and for some, it never will. Personally, I enjoy them. Far more than I enjoy scrappers, and even blasters - which I find very boring to play.

To the OP: Stick with it until 35 if you can. At that point you'll have a bunch of powers to work with, and some slots as well. It'll be a whole different game at that point. Copy over to test, and play with some different builds to see what works for you.

Never tried a PB because on paper they don't appeal to me, but my WS was my out and out favourite character from about level 22 onwards. Just great power after great power, and tight slotting meant I was also constantly looking forward to dinging regardless of the reward. Plus in her 40s Frankenslotting (my preferred way of using set IOs) probably was more fun to work out and worked better for her than any other character I've played in the 40s.

The ability to switch between roles mid-fight is just so much fun. I was actually very disappointed when she hit 50.

I feel that HEATs need a buff in a few different regards. I played PB up to about 40 and then stopped. She just didn't do anything particularly well enough for me to enjoy her. And perhaps I was spoiled after having played a Crab and Widow to 50. Comparatively, they just do less damage, have long animation times, aren't as durable, and don't get mez protect outside of Dwarf.

But, having voiced my concerns before, there were enough vocal people that felt they were fine and didn't need to be changed. So HEATs go on my list of things I can't or won't play, like Stalkers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Not to mention that Photon Seekers is not a true summon power. If I could use them like Seeker Drones to take/make the alpha, it would be a much, much better power.

I also wouldn't mind if they did something to make Luminous Detonation (and the WS equivalent) not be absolutely horrible.

And the requisite "make Solar Flare KD instead of KB". I'll stop now.


Anyway, in my experience:

Human-only PB: Brutal to play, but sorta-fun. You pretty much have to try and leverage your inherent when possible, and there's a distinct lack of good attacks in the set. I had to pick up Boxing to help fill a respectable attack chain. I blame the crummyness of Luminous Blast. Survivability-wise, they're actually really dang good.

Triform PB: Very, very workable. Basically, if you want a class that can focus 100% on the forms with little trouble, this'll do it. Of course, on the other hand, this makes them a bit bland, IMO.

Human-only WS: I've heard...interesting stories. Probably not outright terrible, but not really gripping either. If a really heavily disruption-based character appeals to you, I could see it being a neat idea. Otherwise, it would be kinda underwhelming considering...

Triform WS: An absolute blast. A little micro-managey, but the amount of crazy stuff you can do is great. You always have options, and it's hard to die unless there's a lot of mez flying around. Forget Mire, it's all about Stygian Circle. <3

I played a PB from 1 to 50 Human Only the whole way, then I purpled her out and got most of accolades. Most of my play was solo. So, either I'm a glutton for punishment or there's something about the AT I find appealing haha. Maybe a bit of both...

Nowadays, the AT just doesn't have the problems it used to have. The recent buffs, the 3-1 Insp trade making having a BF all the time pretty easy... It's just no longer the exercize in teethpulling many have groaned about over the years.

I'm not a member of the Kheld Fanboi club, though. There are improvements that could be made to make the AT more appealing and more desireable to have on teams. If there was just one thing that could be done that would make the most different, it'd be to flip the inherent.

Instead of the AT getting buffs when teamed with certain ATs, the inherent instead gives those ATs the exact same buff they currently give the Kheld. A PB's new Cosmic Balance: A Tanker teaming with a PB knows he will get a constant 20% damage buff; a Scrapper will get 10% more Resistance; a 'Troller will get a +1 bonus to her control mag... These buffs would instantly make Khelds more welcome on teams. The Kheld's base stats would have to be enhanced to account for the fact that they won't be getting buffed from teammates anymore; they would no longer reach the highs of teaming with 8, but they also wouldn't have the lows when soloing or on smaller teams. Balances out from the Kheld perspective and would make other ATs welcome khelds. Win/Win...

Ah, well, sorry if I took it too far. You did suggest flipping the inherent, which suggests it doesn't work as is, though.

People have a lot of weird anti-kheld bias built up over the years that I usually try to argue against, and the inherent is one of them. If anything, the inherent makes even more sense now that it carries across the forms and that Khelds can get buffs from other kheld teammates. I just wish Controllers gave more of a buff: 1 mag mez resist is a joke. As other people have pointed out, you have to have multiple Controllers on a team to get the buff to an adequate level, and at that point, they're locking things down so well you don't NEED mez protection.

I think people just like the VEAT buff more because we're innately selfish and like getting buffed ourselves. People talk about the devs hating villains, but they did give villains easier to appreciate powers at times. VEATs buff their teammates, Corrupters and Doms are a bit more able to solo than Defenders and Controllers, etc.

As for the finding team stuff, one tricky thing with Khelds is that you don't necessarily know what you're going to get (depending on if they're tri-form, human, etc.). So sometimes people are thrown off by that. But no matter what, you will be getting DPS from them and some buffs/control... which any team should want. Still, VEATs are more straightforward than Khelds, so it's easier for people to know what to expect from them.

In my opinion, and experience, Kheldians — especially Peacebringers — are welcome on teams, as long as the team is not looking for something role-specific. As an AT, Kheldians can bring several gameplay options and tactics to a team, however, that depends more on the individual player's playstyle, skill and not on the design of the AT. This fact alone sets up an unfavorable scenario when a team leader is trying to decide whether or not to "hire" a Kheldian.

From my personal experience, no one ever spoke badly against my Warshades, but there have been times when a team leader expressed their dissatisfaction with my Peacebringer, and the reasons as far as I could understand were largely the KB, and to be honest, competing with the TL for aggro and alphastrikes. A competition which I frequently won despite using Dwarf and Nova forms with their limited power choices!

Some people simply don't care to see someone who is a "Jack of All Trades, Master of None" actually prove themselves to be "Better than a Master of One".

When most people simply like to "facemelt" through "raw" DPS rather than use gameplay tactics an AT like Kheldians is at a disadvantage by design. This issue is made worse in comparison with VEATs because the Devs (int their business-guided wisdom) decided to combine passive advantages, such as mez-protection and defensive force multiplication, together with a single-form power-house of raw damage that Kheldians simply require more work to compete with.