Why do HEATs feel like fail?
By
Afterimage,
Posted on: 2009-10-10 13:43 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Ok, you do have a point here. Somehow I read your original post as "Whatever the kheld would have gotten, instead give it to everyone else." My bad.|
Originally Posted by Socorro
Each AT would only get a single bonus, the same they normally give to a Kheld; they wouldn't get the entire bonus the Kheld normally gets from all teammates. ex: A Scrapper would get a 10% Resistance bonus for teaming with a PB (and nothing else) no matter how many others were on the team.
But yeah, waaaay overpowered, just like overwhelming advantage the boost from powers like the Leadership Pool or the Magic Booster Pack gives teammates. Seriously, Do you really think a percentage boost thats around the numbers of a small inspiration (and comparable to Assault and Maneuvers) such a game breaker??? Personally, I think it's right in line with powers like Leadership and the VEAT teambuff toggles, and it would have the wonderful property of giving other ATs something tangeable, and thus make Khelds more welcome and sought after... |
I actually like your idea now. It's not overpowered... but I'd only really like it if the AT as a whole were buffed to compensate for not receiving those buffs anymore. Or hell, why not have the buff work both ways?
Nevermind, as I'm typing this, I realize the problem. Your suggestion makes a Kheldian buff players, but would leave the Kheldians significantly nerfed. No one wants that, so you say to buff the Keheldian to compensate. What that's doing is throwing the already powerful Kheldians way over current performance.
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Originally Posted by Socorro
Oh, I'd forgotten about all the broadcasts of 'Looking for Kheld' I see instead of looking for DPS, Support, Tanker, etc...
Most people welcome Khelds because most people are simply nice and/or don't really care. But as has been said on this thread, though, most people do prefer a teammate that offers a clear contribution to the team, whether DPS, control, etc., as opposed to the general 2nd best at everything Khelds bring. I'm not a Kheld basher. Remember, the AT I play most of the time by far is a PB. I'm love the AT in general, but there are things that can make it better (on teams and solo), and I've offered one. But there is a perception problem; one that I think is born of truth. People like the OP don't start the gazillions of thread about HEATS like this for no reason at all... Awww forget it - what was I thinking. The AT is perfect as is *shakes head* |
I haven't played a PB, but I'm getting very familiar with my WS. When I run TFs, I always try to grab a kheldian or two, but never more. It's kind of like a kin. One is great, but two is overkill. More than two kheldians leaves them without enough teambuffs to make them awesome.
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
LX, the following post is NOT an attack on your opinion about kheldians. It is only an exercise is pointing out the different views folks have about them.
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Translation: PBs are welcome when the team needs a pad.
In my opinion, and experience, Kheldians — especially Peacebringers — are welcome on teams, as long as the team is not looking for something role-specific.
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As an AT, Kheldians can bring several gameplay options and tactics to a team, however, that depends more on the individual player's playstyle, skill and not on the design of the AT.
Translation: You never know what you're going to get with a Khel due to the sloppy design of the AT.
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This fact alone sets up an unfavorable scenario when a team leader is trying to decide whether or not to "hire" a Kheldian.
No translation needed.
Translation: Sometimes a Khel can outshine a player of a regular AT, but please keep in mind that there are bad builds and bad players out there.Quote:
Some people simply don't care to see someone who is a "Jack of All Trades, Master of None" actually prove themselves to be "Better than a Master of One".
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When most people simply like to "facemelt" through "raw" DPS rather than use gameplay tactics an AT like Kheldians is at a disadvantage by design.
Translation: Due to the klunky design, long shift animations and poor to situationally decent DPS, Khels are at a disadvantage at the get go.
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This issue is made worse in comparison with VEATs because the Devs (int their business-guided wisdom) decided to combine passive advantages, such as mez-protection and defensive force multiplication, together with a single-form power-house of raw damage that Kheldians simply require more work to compete with.
The devs made VEATs after learning from all the mistakes they made making HEATs. They realized that the majority of the playerbase didn't want Epic to mean Annoying and Situational.
There are days I really enjoy my warshade. After stygian circle (quite possibly the best power in the entire game) a warshade can be fun. There's even a video out there of a human/dwarf 'shade succeeding at the RWZ challenge by leaning heavily on eclipse and dwarf.
I have yet to see a PB do it. I hope one day PBs are brought up to so that they can at least do what WSs can do: Have the *potential* to be powerful.
Be well, people of CoH.
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-Nods-|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
LX, the following post is NOT an attack on your opinion about kheldians. It is only an exercise is pointing out the different views folks have about them.
[FONT=Verdana] Translation: PBs are welcome when the team needs a pad. Translation: You never know what you're going to get with a Khel due to the sloppy design of the AT. No translation needed. Translation: Sometimes a Khel can outshine a player of a regular AT, but please keep in mind that there are bad builds and bad players out there. Translation: Due to the klunky design, long shift animations and poor to situationally decent DPS, Khels are at a disadvantage at the get go. The devs made VEATs after learning from all the mistakes they made making HEATs. They realized that the majority of the playerbase didn't want Epic to mean Annoying and Situational. There are days I really enjoy my warshade. After stygian circle (quite possibly the best power in the entire game) a warshade can be fun. There's even a video out there of a human/dwarf 'shade succeeding at the RWZ challenge by leaning heavily on eclipse and dwarf. I have yet to see a PB do it. I hope one day PBs are brought up to so that they can at least do what WSs can do: Have the *potential* to be powerful. |
All sounds about right to me.
Sure as heck is accurate when it comes to teaming. Or rather, lack of. Why pick a Kheld, when you can get something better? Playing EU side, and at somewhat quirky times nowadays (Damn you to hell and back, Uni network Proxy!) finding a team is like gold dust. Maybe I'm just damned unlucky.
That, and I don't have any rich 50s to make sure my gal is slotted up to optimum levels. So, I'm in for the long haul it seems =S
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I haven't IOed out my WS yet. When I do I plan to lean on mez resistance and recharge.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Yes, Khelds would have to receive some inate buffage to compensate for the losses they normally get from teammates. Personally, I think increasing their Human Damage Scalars to 1.0 (for both melee and ranged, as opposed to the 0.85 and 0.80 they have now...I think), upping the Resisistance of their Shields to 10% or 15% greater than what it is now when maxxed, plus giving them Mez. Protection of around Mag 2 to compensate for losing Controller bonuses would be about right. They wouldn't be as powerful as they currently are when on a 8-man team, but they buffing the team, so the contribution is there, and moreso they also wouldn't struggle when soloing or on small teams as much either. |
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Nevermind, as I'm typing this, I realize the problem. Your suggestion makes a Kheldian buff players, but would leave the Kheldians significantly nerfed. No one wants that, so you say to buff the Keheldian to compensate. What that's doing is throwing the already powerful Kheldians way over current performance.
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Forms would, of course, get a comparable increase.
I don't think most people consider Khelds overpowered at the moment (well, PBs anyway) so this wouldn't add to that. In fact, Khelds who are used to being on large teams alot would feel like they've been Nerfed. Those that Solo or play on smaller teams alot would feel buffed. I still think it'd even out, but best of all, the teams that Khelds on would certainly feel buffed, and appreciate and welcome the Kheld's presence more. IMHO, of course
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I didn't say they were overpowered, mind you, I only said they were powerful. In my very honest opinion, though, your suggestion would push them into the realm of overpowered. If we want "epic" to mean "better than everyone," then we should do this, but I don't think that's the case. This game has always tried for a balance in things.|
Originally Posted by Socorro
I don't think most people consider Khelds overpowered at the moment (well, PBs anyway) so this wouldn't add to that. In fact, Khelds who are used to being on large teams alot would feel like they've been Nerfed. Those that Solo or play on smaller teams alot would feel buffed. I still think it'd even out, but best of all, the teams that Khelds on would certainly feel buffed, and appreciate and welcome the Kheld's presence more. IMHO, of course
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And to the ends of the Earth I will fight against mez protection in the human form. If human had protection, there would be no need for dwarf form at all.
Personally, I like them the way they are. I feel like an amazing contributor to the team. I've run on TFs where I went full on scrapperlock with a WS. "You seven go that way, I'll go this way." We were on a Manticore last night with the bugged level 40 Paragon Protector Elites that show up in pairs while all of us were stuck exemplared to 35. I managed to tank one alone while the rest of the team ganged up on the other. For the rest of the missions, however, I was able to mire/nova and melt things. Granted, using a bugged mission isn't the best support for my argument. I was just trying to highlight the capabilities of a decently played WS.
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
Yet everyone's 'god' stories come from Warshades. PBs always get left in the dirt.
Pretty poor showing for an 'Epic' AT. It does say Epic, after all. Not 'Challenge', or 'Oh god that hurt' ATs. Epic.
I hate to dredge it out again, but yes, VEATs do feel like Epic ATs. Even the people who find them boring also mention they still hit hard.
OT, posted in the Kheld forums. Got a grand total of one reply, so far =S I don't think this gal is going anywhere fast...
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Please note, "Epic" has ALWAYS supposed to mean epic as in "epic poem." Tied to a story. Not "So come in and hit the i win button so I don't have to do anything." Khelds have an actual bacstory, an AT-specific path they take alongside everything else going on, a far-reaching storyarc playing in the shadows of the regular ones.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Yet everyone's 'god' stories come from Warshades. PBs always get left in the dirt.
Pretty poor showing for an 'Epic' AT. It does say Epic, after all. Not 'Challenge', or 'Oh god that hurt' ATs. Epic. |
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| I hate to dredge it out again, but yes, VEATs do feel like Epic ATs. Even the people who find them boring also mention they still hit hard. |
*tries cycling through four attacks while dealing with an ambush* Yep, "waiting" sure feels powerful. Oh, wait, I can follow the team and be a buff-bot.
*looks at the utter lack of anything reasonably called a storyarc for most of a VEATs existance* Hmm. Not "epic" there, either. Unless I'm supposed to count newspaper missions?
The issue of whether or not you built and effective VEAT is not necessarily tied into whether or not one can build an effective VEAT. I know mine is quite effective (I should say both of mine since I do have a crab and a widow).
Also, the issue of whether the VEAT story arc is crap has no impact whatsoever on whether or not the AT was well designed.
Too many alts to list.
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This sounds like a challenge...|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
There are days I really enjoy my warshade. After stygian circle (quite possibly the best power in the entire game) a warshade can be fun. There's even a video out there of a human/dwarf 'shade succeeding at the RWZ challenge by leaning heavily on eclipse and dwarf.
I have yet to see a PB do it. |
One of these days...
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Still waiting for his Official BackAlleyBrawler No-Prize
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See prior definition of "epic." One which, btw, was handed down from the dev team. And then see what that was posted here in reply to.
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Originally Posted by docbuzzard
Also, the issue of whether the VEAT story arc is crap has no impact whatsoever on whether or not the AT was well designed.
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Which means the devs failed to deliver on the story side for VEATs in exactly the same way they failed to deliver on the performance side for HEATs.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
See prior definition of "epic." One which, btw, was handed down from the dev team. And then see what that was posted here in reply to.
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I'd call that balance!
Be well, people of CoH.
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You know, I can't disagree with that, although more than a few PuGs I've been on not teams I've started, but teams I've joined have been perfectly happy to let my PB take alphas and tank, essentially leading the team despite having more than one tank on the team.
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
PBs are welcome when the team needs a pad.
Honestly, I wouldn't call that sloppy design but rather unpopular and over-challenging design, but every one of us sees different things, so naturally no one design can satisfy everyone anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
You never know what you're going to get with a Khel due to the sloppy design of the AT.
Indisputable even for the 'normal' AT's. Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Sometimes a Khel can outshine a player of a regular AT, but please keep in mind that there are bad builds and bad players out there.
That's the whole point of me claiming Kheldians were never about pure DPS, and a lot of people disagreeing with me. It seems like a lot of people wish for just DPS to focus on so, naturally to them, Kheldian design seems clunky, sloppy and downright antagonizing. To me however, Kheldian design is pure awesome in most parts, especially when it's not focused on DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Due to the klunky design, long shift animations and poor to situationally decent DPS, Khels are at a disadvantage at the get go.
They also realized the majority of the playerbase simply wanted to be passively empowered. Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
The devs made VEATs after learning from all the mistakes they made making HEATs. They realized that the majority of the playerbase didn't want Epic to mean Annoying and Situational.
In my opinion, both Kheldian AT's are supposed to emulate and mix the gameplay mechanics from the other AT's in the game. When looking at the melee capacity of both WS's and PB's, I'd say that a PB is more tankerish and a WS is more scrapperish. I don't know if Tankers can take on the RWZ challenge, and I'm certainly happy that a WS can. However since the RWZ challenge was made by Scrappers, for Scrappers, it isn't something I'd wish my PB was able to do. What I'd want my PB to be able to do, is tank several AV's while protecting the team it was on, as a challenge! Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
There are days I really enjoy my warshade. After stygian circle (quite possibly the best power in the entire game) a warshade can be fun. There's even a video out there of a human/dwarf 'shade succeeding at the RWZ challenge by leaning heavily on eclipse and dwarf.
I have yet to see a PB do it. I hope one day PBs are brought up to so that they can at least do what WSs can do: Have the *potential* to be powerful.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
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Eh, it's really an argument that keeps on going. I think Kheldians had a lot of bad design issues at the start that have kept people negative about them. VEATs, like most new powersets, did not have to go through the same phase.
I hear people got nuts about their VEAT, but I haven't seen anything about their numbers or performance that makes them the absolute "uber" that people make them out to be. They're obviously well put together, but there is a strong bias towards them as well.
I never understand why bad Kheldian players seem to get more rap than bad players of any other AT. You occasionally get "this class must suck because of the idiot I played with last night," but no one takes it to heart like they do if the class in that statement is a Kheldian. There is no class in this game that is completely weak compared to the others: no matter how much people want to say one is more uber. There are strengths and weaknesses to every AT, and it all balances out.
Some powersets, etc. need some tweaking, sure, but there is not the huge discrepancy that some try to make: be it with Khelds, Defenders, Tankers, etc.
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I...heh...I take it back. Most of it.
I got the gal to 20 with a PuG tonight.
My god, the dual build feature is so useful. Nova, Dwarf form...shifting between them two is good fun.
I think the new build I had planned can definitely go ahead. Fun times are here!
As for VEATs, GP, the glory comes when teamed with other VEATs. They can be very fun solo, with lots of AoEs on Crabs, hittiness on Banes and Widows, and shielded controlling on Fortunatas. But the true glory comes about with 2+ VEATs. Multi stacked buffs makes them night unkillable, and the various attacks and debuffs they can bring to bear is nothing short of...well..Epic
I think with PBs certainly, it would be nice if they merged the shields, down to two. You already get passive resistance in the 1st secondary power, why not scrap the second enrg/neg shield and instead give a bonus to the S/L shield that evens out the numbers? Then have the fire/cold shield and add resDebuff or something part to it.
Up the basic accuracy of Pulsar. Far too low atm. And then add something else to fill for the merged shield.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Bill - I know you're heavily focused on melting/slashing/stabbing everything in sight. I went through your arc. |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Which means the devs failed to deliver on the story side for VEATs in exactly the same way they failed to deliver on the performance side for HEATs.
I'd call that balance! |
Not every AT is meant to do that. That is not "failing to deliver," unless you count controllers and defenders as failed classes for not having scrapper damage 24/7. It's what you enjoy, more power to ya.I'm going to leave it at this:
I find my Khelds - both PB and WS, and I've run several up to 50 - FUN. I look forward to playing them, and recently made *more.* I don't feel underpowered in the slightest. No, not an exaggeration. Hell, I'm still annoyed they nerfed Voids because of people complaining something could actually *threaten* them slightly.
VEATs? I find uninspiring, boring, tedious, a waste of half the levels gained, and just plain *not fun.* Not because "zomg they're so powerful" or any nonsense like that. Most of the time when I hear how 'great" VEATs are, it's followed by one of three things:
"... in groups" (so they're buffbots,) or
"... with other VEATs" (again... buffbots,) or
"... when I IO'd them out for capped X Y Z" (yay you?)
My reaction playing them has generally been - and I believe I mentioned this before - "Why didn't I just roll another stalker?" Doing that and taking leadership nets the *same thing* for all intents and purposes without a crap "storyline" that the dev team should be ashamed of. Except, of course, you get better stealth. And an early placate. And more options. And you don't have to re-figure your build at 24 (twice, if you decide to try a dual build.)
I don't find them powerful, I don't find them enjoyable, I don't find them "well made" ("tight, uncompromising build," perhaps) and I don't find them *fun.*
Edit: And for the nitwit that red-repped that prior post mentioning getting two shotted by BAB, etc, saying "The hyperbole was too high," well, guess what, chuckles, none of that was made up. You don't like the truth, too damn bad.
Try just the rifle, Bill.
Arachnos Rifle + Bane armour is rather fun solo. I found the first time with a SoA hard, due to obvious ignorance. The second time was very fun.
The main combo is Wide Area Web nade + Venom Nade + Heavy burst with a + Frag grenade optional. That tends to make a very nice mess of anything around.
When you couple that with hide, armour and self buffing...it gets good =] you dont have to go for Crab and Bane, the Huntsman path is just as viable, if not more so.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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MB, there are controllers and defenders out there that can solo giant monsters. There's not a scrapper possible that can do that.
The question comes down to what CAN a kheldian do better than anything else?
There IS an answer but it comes at what I consider too high a cost.
Kheldians can plug PUG holes. Tank goes down? Dwarf up. Blaster face plants? Go nova.
I don't begrudge you your fun. Hell, I envy it. The VEATs are just as bad for me on the boring scale. Why play a widow when I've got two claws/sr characters? Can't got fortunata because psi/mental attacks give me a splitting headache. Can't do crab because IT feels klunky. I have one bane and she's been stuck in the high 20s for a looooong time.
But at least VEATs do immediately add to a team and start at level 1 with higher than normal recovery. In contrast, those that use the forms rock hard with nova from 6 until 22 when blasters fly past them on damage output.
The statement "not all ATs are for everyone" is very true, but I don't see the point in anyone backing up their preference for X by stating things about the AT that just aren't true.
No Khel will EVER tank as well as a tank. No Khel will EVER blast as well as a blaster. All they can do now, all they've ever been able to do on teams, is plug holes when they appear. No holes? No need for a Khel.
Does this mean I won't team with them? Hell no. I can do a 5th diff ITF with 8 scrappers, I don't care what I'm teamed with. And I do now and always will love watching a warshade in action.
Let's just make sure that we're not tossing around half-truths and untruths when trying to defend our favorite toy.
EDIT: I feel like I should add something I posted a long time ago. Khels can tank better than defenders, blast better than scrappers and control better than blasters.
Be well, people of CoH.
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>.> *points up a ways* |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Try just the rifle, Bill.
Arachnos Rifle + Bane armour is rather fun solo. I found the first time with a SoA hard, due to obvious ignorance. The second time was very fun. The main combo is Wide Area Web nade + Venom Nade + Heavy burst with a + Frag grenade optional. That tends to make a very nice mess of anything around. When you couple that with hide, armour and self buffing...it gets good =] you dont have to go for Crab and Bane, the Huntsman path is just as viable, if not more so. |
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| Of course, me being me, I'm running a crab now (the only one so far I've found the least bit interesting, and I'm still looking at the next 26 levels going "Do I REALLY want to do this?") to see if I feel any different about it than I do the widow or bane. And if a duo I agreed to goes anywhere (as the other person doesn't particularly like their VEAT either,) another will probalby go "huntsman." I have *absolutely* no urge to roll a fort. |
I've got this thing about getting into ATs every possible way I can, trying to learn them inside and out. No, I'm not a numbers guy - I don't plan on getting .0000001% more defense to monkey snot, how to shave off 1/5 sec of recharge for 2% more damage on an attack, etc. I go through how the sets *play.* I've got quite a few tanks (a few sitting back, waiting, since I've been playing more with "how do various secondaries work with fire" with them,) one of every control primary on either a troller or a dom, quite a number of defenders, etc. Only thing I don't have at least one 50 of is a Corruptor and a Soldier (the Bane being at 40 and just... sitting there.)
I *do* give different builds a shot - especially given my mastermind experience (found bot/FF boring as heck, talked to the MM forum, tried thugs/poi, love the thing and have several other combos rolled,) so it's not "just" Bane (for instance) for me. Crab, for me, is the most promising - but being "burned" twice, as it were, I'm just not looking forward to the trip. I can't say that with any other AT. (Specific points, sure - like when MMs get to deal with Scrapyarders heavily, it's not fun, but after that it's a breeze. Or specific powersets - I find Illusion too direct-control-light, so I don't enjoy playing it, yet I have a ton of 'trollers and doms.)
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Honestly, though.... almost any AT can plug any hole. No tank? Control keeps things from affecting the team (as well as debuffs.) No blaster? Debuffs increase team efficiency (reducing resistance, increasing performance, etc.) |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Kheldians can plug PUG holes. Tank goes down? Dwarf up. Blaster face plants? Go nova.
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Khelds get slammed because they're not specialists - they *are* a swiss army knife. And there's no "one true build." I can complain about the rad/ corruptor a few halloweens ago having only AM, the heal and rez in the mid-30s because it was really gutting what the character could do - *and what was expected of it* (especially fighting Eochai at the time. We invited the guy because we needed debuffs, not weak PBAOE heals.)
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| But at least VEATs do immediately add to a team and start at level 1 with higher than normal recovery. In contrast, those that use the forms rock hard with nova from 6 until 22 when blasters fly past them on damage output. |
And while that blaster's "flying past" in damage on my Kheld, I'm adding control, self or team buffs, and the ability to tank, if needed.
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| The statement "not all ATs are for everyone" is very true, but I don't see the point in anyone backing up their preference for X by stating things about the AT that just aren't true. |
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| No Khel will EVER tank as well as a tank. No Khel will EVER blast as well as a blaster. All they can do now, all they've ever been able to do on teams, is plug holes when they appear. No holes? No need for a Khel. |
If there's a blaster, do you need a scrapper?
If there's a scrapper, do you need a tank?
If there's a controller, do you need a defender?
If there's more than one defender, do you need anyone else?
The "holes" argument is, if you'll excuse the phrase, full of holes, since it's true for everyone else, as well.
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| Let's just make sure that we're not tossing around half-truths and untruths when trying to defend our favorite toy. |
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Umm, so? A storyline does not impact the design of the AT. I don't see how that could be any more clear. Yes, khelds were designed with an epic storyline. However, they were not a well designed AT. VEATs were designed with a crap storyline. They are a well designed AT. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
See prior definition of "epic." One which, btw, was handed down from the dev team. And then see what that was posted here in reply to.
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Now yes, someone else might have used the term epic in a sense the devs didn't initially mean for khelds, but I'd say his meaning is closer to the truth when it came to VEATs.
I find it amusing that you compared them to controllers and defenders elsewhere since that's completely off base. Those are force multipliers. Khelds are not.
Also your general disdain for the VEATs is something I find odd. I would assume you know how they work, but then to dismiss them with nonsense like "taking the leadership pool on another AT is the same" is totally inane. That isn't even vaguely comparable, especially redside where no other AT has even defender levels of leadership, much less the VEAT powerset values.
Are they buffbots? I suppose that depends on how you define the term. My crab hands out the equivalent of fortitude to everyone within range, and yet blasts with the best of them. He also has status protection to match a tanker. I don't have to spend any effort buffing, and yet the team is greatly improved by my presence and I get to happily blast away. That's a fun AT to me.
Now I won't say he's the greatest soloist, but then I didn't make my build that way. The beauty of the VEAT builds is the amount of flexibility available. You can go in many different directions and make them effective.
Too many alts to list.
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I call BS. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Again - none have come from me. If you want to argue that perhaps I know how to play to my Khelds strengths or whatever out of *playing* them for years, and don't have that behind me with VEATs, I'll accept that may come into play - but hell, I was *excited* about VEATs when they hit test, and thought the branching was a good idea, etc. That soured fast playing them live.
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Try this on for size:
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| My reaction playing them has generally been - and I believe I mentioned this before - "Why didn't I just roll another stalker?" Doing that and taking leadership nets the *same thing* for all intents and purposes without a crap "storyline" that the dev team should be ashamed of. Except, of course, you get better stealth. And an early placate. And more options. And you don't have to re-figure your build at 24 (twice, if you decide to try a dual build.) |
This is not to mention you are focused on only bane spiders or widows, and if you are that plagued by tunnel vision, you completely don't understand the VEATs.
As for the oh-so-rough re-speccing a build, please. I can't imagine anyone who's played this game as long as you have finds a respec to be a chore. That's a sad nitpick if I've ever seen one.
If nothing else, the fact that a VEAT can be a ranged attacker with solid status protection makes them very different from almost every AT (there are exceptions in FF and Sonic, but those have holes that VEATs don't).
Too many alts to list.
I have a tri-form Warshade, though most of my slots went into Nova & Dwarf. It's still the most fun I've had levelling any of my 17 characters that have hit L50, just because the tactics available are like no other archetype in the game. My WS's playstyle was almost fully formed by L22, with just eclipse/pets and more slots to look forward to.
I think I'd have found my WS unplayable without keybinds (which is why I've never tried) - imho frequent and fast form-switching is inherent to an effective tri-form WS playstyle - I have form-changes bound to the two side/shoulder buttons on my mouse, which also switch hotkey bars/trays and re-bind the Teleport powers between Human and Dwarf (to Alt+LeftClick). I do wonder if so many players hate Kheldians because they don't use keybinds. Or maybe Kheldians are just like Marmite - you either love 'em or you hate 'em.
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This has been my experience too (though I levelled my Warshade to L50 pre-Inventions and IO'd it up later).|
Originally Posted by Carnifax
Never tried a PB because on paper they don't appeal to me, but my WS was my out and out favourite character from about level 22 onwards. Just great power after great power, and tight slotting meant I was also constantly looking forward to dinging regardless of the reward. Plus in her 40s Frankenslotting (my preferred way of using set IOs) probably was more fun to work out and worked better for her than any other character I've played in the 40s.
The ability to switch between roles mid-fight is just so much fun. I was actually very disappointed when she hit 50. |
My Warshade is awesome in large groups of mobs (I duo'd to L50 with a friend using mainly hazard-zone spawns), but I can't see how a Peacebringer could be as good from the powers they get (basically they lack mires & eclipse to buff nova form, no decent pets, nor any end-recovery tools).
The only thing I can see PBs have going for them is better survivability/tanking when solo against small spawns - I've always assumed they were meant as the solo Kheldian AT - but the I16 difficulty changes mean that even solo WS's can have huge spawns all the time now. And really the survivability of a PB (with 3 heals and +hp) isn't something it can brag about over a WS, as with perma-Eclipse, Stygian Circle and Dwarf my WS is near unkillable.
The main WS weakness is to mezzes, which the PB also shares, and a switch to Dwarf cures that for both of them - though the WS Dwarf will be doing more damage than PB Dwarf thanks to Mire(s) and will have much higher resists while Eclipse lasts.
So PB is currently the only archetype in CoH/V that I have never played.
The only characters I have that approach my Warshade for awe-inspiring effectiveness are both of my VEATs and my Archery/Energy Blaster, though admittedly the latter three are heavily purpled (my WS only has one purple set atm). My WS was notably more awesome than the Blaster on just SOs. For area damage the Blaster wins for burst damage (but isn't as survivable), while the Warshade beats the Crab for consistent area damage due to better pets, higher damage and shorter animation times on attacks - the Crab only wins on having mez protection.
Admittedly at L50 for both soloing and teaming I prefer my purpled-up Bane Spider and Night Widow as they're just good at almost everything and require less faffing around than the Warshade (i.e. no form-dancing or buff prep re: eclipse/mires), but the WS can still take apart a large spawn faster than them.
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Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I haven't IOed out my WS yet. When I do I plan to lean on mez resistance and recharge.
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Sure, you can go for mez resist, but even 100% status resist (which is impossible to get for all mez types) only halves the mez duration you suffer - I tried going the full mez-resist route on my L50 Blaster and tbh I wasn't that impressed so I switched his secondary IO focus (after +recharge) to +def - better to avoid mezzes than mitigate them, imho.
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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Yet everyone's 'god' stories come from Warshades. PBs always get left in the dirt.
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That said I probably will play a PB one day - it's one of only 4 ATs in the game I don't have at L50 yet and I'm currently working on the other 3. But I'm really not that enthusiastic about playing a PB - if I do get a PB to L50 it will probably be more because I want to have one of every AT at L50 than because I'll actually enjoy it.
So Warshades certainly don't feel like fail to me, even compared to VEATs, though I suspect Peacebringers might - time will tell.
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When one complains about an AT not being "epic," and is not using the definition handed down, then the point has to be made. Clear enough?|
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
Umm, so? A storyline does not impact the design of the AT. I don't see how that could be any more clear. Yes, khelds were designed with an epic storyline. However, they were not a well designed AT. VEATs were designed with a crap storyline. They are a well designed AT.
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And I happen to find Khelds better designed - and even with fewer slots, FAR more flexible in build options than VEATs.
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| Now yes, someone else might have used the term epic in a sense the devs didn't initially mean for khelds, but I'd say his meaning is closer to the truth when it came to VEATs. |
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| I find it amusing that you compared them to controllers and defenders elsewhere since that's completely off base. Those are force multipliers. Khelds are not. |
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| Also your general disdain for the VEATs is something I find odd. I would assume you know how they work, but then to dismiss them with nonsense like "taking the leadership pool on another AT is the same" is totally inane. |
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| That isn't even vaguely comparable, especially redside where no other AT has even defender levels of leadership, much less the VEAT powerset values. |
Not going to argue if you're having fun or not. If you are, hey, great. Keep doing it. In the end, that's what we're here for. (I'll also point out that you're talking about a Crab, where I've been - as mentioned - talking about what I've seen from my Widow and Bane, which may be throwing your view of my comparison off.)
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| Now I won't say he's the greatest soloist, but then I didn't make my build that way. The beauty of the VEAT builds is the amount of flexibility available. You can go in many different directions and make them effective. |
I think people just like the VEAT buff more because we're innately selfish and like getting buffed ourselves.
A kheld only acts in an additive fashion when joining a team. They don't offer buffs or debuffs which make everyone more effective. A team stocked up with khelds would be so so, a stacked team of VEATs is a superteam.
As for desirability, let's not fool ourselves. Khelds are nowhere near the top of the heap in "I need one of those" when you are picking a team for something hard. In fact, I'd say they are bottom of the heap. If I've got a slot open for DPS, I might grab one, but I'd take a blaster or scrapper first. Sure a kheld might be well built and played and be as effective as that blaster or scrapper, but I'm gonna play the odds and assume it's not. They are harder to build and play, and if I assume a general level of not overly high competence, a kheld will be less useful to the team. If I know a player, and know he's good, then sure his kheld is more than welcome. However out of the blue, no dice.
I do like the idea of the inverted inherent somewhat. It would at least give them force multiplier appeal.
Too many alts to list.