Why do HEATs feel like fail?

At this point, I would like to inform the person who negatived me for this post that "Casually slotting a warshade with purples" is an old joke in the market forums. Don't take it seriously dude.

Yeah I belive its in someones signature here basically quoting,
"Did you just say 'Casual Gamer' and 'Purpled out WarShade' in the same sentence?"

I'm pretty sure thats not word for word but quite the jist of it.

And I can't stand warshades, they feel too much like a clone of the PB's just with different inherent powers.
That and teleport as their travel power... *shudders* I HATE teleport...

As for whoever neg repped me with "Do not start the flamewar back up" I don't see a flame war here, I see a rather decent debate and do you even see my rep? your worthless neg rep point just made me laugh. (granted theres a couple troll post and flames but the information I gave on being a low level PB/WS is pretty solid. DO NOT DO SEWER TEAMS PEOPLE! unless you like to faceplant alot because of some Shadow Cyst)

Just monstrously more effective than PBs.

I guess it wasnt entirely worthless if you felt the need to address it. (I did not send it as I am against the rep system)

its worthless, I just like infuriating whoever did it. Psychological war is always fun
Now back to your regularly scheduled HEAT programming... And I don't mean wrestling

LoLz. Not sure what to make of this statement, but what sort of "human-only-Warshade-flagship-dude" would I be if I didn't respond to a statement like this in some way?

Well, if by "disruption" you mean "damage mitigation," yeah, of course it's a neat idea. It's actually more than that, but I won't go into specifics here.

And if any indication from the arguments in this thread that Khelds are supposed to perform like Scrappers have ANY merit whatsoever... I will fight FOR mez protection in human form "to the ends of the Earth." To me, THAT is the underlying difference is between a human-form Warshade and a Scrapper. My human-former can keep up a constant damage resistance cap against the SAME +4x8 mobs any good scrapper out there can take, all while giving some major damage along the way (albeit without crits). It may take me a few seconds longer to take down that mob than a scrapper would, but I would bet you it'd be MORE due to the fact that the scrapper has mez protection and I don't. Sure DPS would factor in (that's blaringly obvious to any dunce out there, of course), but the real difference in long-term performance against ANY of the aforementioned "test mobs" (CoT, Carnies, Malta, etc.) would be the mezzers. A well-built scrapper would not think twice about rushing straight into a mob. A human-former like myself (even though well-built) would have to take an extra second to determine the best strategy/attack chain/enemy target for taking down a mez-heavy mob, as well as deal with the negative effect of standing there mezzed with maxed resists and not being able to do anything about it (if there were no break frees left).

No, there are MANY more factors to consider with a Kheldian going into a mez-heavy mob than there is with a scrapper, so trying to compare the two is a moot point.

*note*
I am not claiming the person who I quoted above was comparing scrappers and Kheldians... I was making a generalized statement to anyone who thinks the two SHOULD be compared for any reason... The "fighting against mez protection in human form" is the best basis why they should NOT be compared to eachother. Give human-formers constant scrapper-like mez protection, and then come to me about whether scrappers and Khelds can compare to eachother.

Well, while I would not go as far as saying VEATs are greater than HEATs (I believe that's a subjective statement, not a "proven by numbers against a specific mob in a specific situation in a specific time, here's the video and the spreadsheet thank you very much" statement, I WILL agree that VEATs having mez protection and HEATs not having it (except in a specific form that isn't comparable to the other forms in a long-term fight) is a huge difference.

Glad you're amused, Bill. Not everyone likes to use math (nor I believe should HAVE to). Math is great, but in the end is only PART of what factors into a Dev's decisions on designing an AT. I believe there's a few other things that factor in there as well. I doubt I'd have to name them off to the likes of you, but I will say that if all the "math" were exactly the same, or only had "minor" differences, we may as well not have varied ATs, right? The whole point of having a "chooseable AT" that might get the same thing done in the long run (kill enemies, go to the next mission) isn't the maths required to get that accomplished (although that's important for balanced gameplay)... It's to appeal to a wider playerbase. Someone like the OP may have at least started out a while ago feeling like Khelds are "fail." Someone like Memphis_Bill may like creating more than 1 PB or WS because he doesn't think they're "fail."

The math isn't going to assure that everyone plays every AT the same way. The math assures that the game remains balanced. The varied ATs and the way that they're designed is what (hopefully) assures that the game appeals to the broadest audience possible.

So, in the end, "requiring" that the entire playerbase use math when stating their "blanket opinion" on an AT, or even merely making statements that you're "amused" when they don't... Is just plain ridiculous.

I submit that "good design" is having a combination of the two (building on my previous point), so a broader playerbase is satisfied. Having both VEATs and HEATs is "good design," as having one appeals to one part of the playerbase, and having the other appeals to another part of the playerbase.

Some people prefer the challenge in "finding the diamond in the rough" performance-wise, and some people don't. That's the way of the world, and game designers are stuck with dealing with that.

Again, I say that's "good design," because VEATs appeal to a part of the playerbase that doesn't prefer the same challenges people like us do, Princess... In the end, appealing to a larger base of players and expanding your subscriber numbers is what the "big picture's" all about.

LoLz. Nice post, Bill... I do love me some sarcastic humor!

Although, I think maybe you should have put the "/sarcasm off" AFTER your last statement...

I believe there is. It's:

E=MCmathdoesnotcompute

And I believe Khelds ARE effective, for the already stated reasons.

ONLY when referring to specific situations with specific enemies in specific conditions with specific time requirements... And ONLY if the entire playerbase can agree that those ramifications you specify are the most fair setup possible when trying to compare ATs (which really shouldn't be done anyway, as all ATs are designed to be "unique").

While I won't say it's "inefficient," I will agree wholeheartedly that it's "clunky," and have been complaining about that for years. It's one of the main reasons (besides the fact that I like my array of human form powers) I prefer to play human-only.

And I would argue that Kheld "capability" is quite effective. I would say that in the extreme situations I've put my Warshade through (the same ones you'd try on a maxed-out Scrapper), a Defender or a blaster, while they may or may not be "capable," would have a much more difficult time of it. Does having a "more difficult time of it in that particular situation" mean those two ATs are "fail" as a whole?

Of course not.

Then why argue that for a Kheld, when it's already been proven they can handle some pretty intense situations? Of COURSE you need to put some thought into building them. Of COURSE you may need to get some help understanding binds and attack chains. Of COURSE it may be frustrating at first for a novice to Khelds... But, isn't that true for just about any AT?

You know what I find interesting?

The fact that some people (not just yourself) say an AT is "gimped," and then name off some extreme situation like "+4x8," as if every AT is supposed to just easily handle that with "just SOs."

That is simply laughable.

I believe it states in everyone's copy of the game on the "tip screen" that "some ATs do well solo. Others do better in teams."

I may not be quoting it exactly, but that's the gist of it. If that statement on the tip screen holds true, why the whole argument about comparing Khelds to any other AT, whether it be Blasters, Scrappers, Tanks, Defenders, VEATs, or Controllers?

I agree... All ATs should play to the strengths of the AT. There are powers out there that do NOT belong to a HEAT powerset that requires other ATs to "play to the strengths of the good powers while ignoring the lousy powers."

So, what's your point, exactly?

It sounds as though I play my Kheld almost the same way you do... Except that I don't think I've "worked around poor design." If the design of the character was to allow for flexibility, and so people could feel comfortable in different playstyles (in the same AT, whether tri, bi, or human-only, as stated by LX's link in this thread to the "original design for Khelds")... Isn't that design working "as intended?"

That said... You really make some good points. I don't mean to upset you in any way by my opposing viewpoints. I just tend to disagree that Khelds are "poor design" by nature. I believe that's a falsehood, if over 12 issues hasn't resulted in any major overhaul of the AT.

As stated before, some people will like it, some people will despise it. I think as with both your case and mine, we like to play it, but begrudgingly, due to either lack of mez protection in human-only builds, or the "clunky-ness" in changing forms.

Depends on what situation you're talking about. If you're talking about a PB's single-target damage vs. a WS's "spiked" AoE damage...Sure, a WS can seem much superior. However, if you're talking about an extended boss fight while solo... PBs would obviously win. A WS's short-term "spike damage" on large mobs shouldn't be the scalar by which everything a PB does is rated. They function on a wholly different scale, and perform differently in different situations.

I have never used a single keybind to "switch trays" on my Khelds. Ever. And I still consider my Khelds to be quite effective.

QFT.

I believe fun is underrated on these forums, as I see it downplayed way more than it's lauded. I think a playerbase's opinion on the "fun factor" (whether it be if they like it for the "math," the "challenge," the "ease of use," the "niche play," etc., etc.) is actually what determines whether a game is successful.

Considering CoX is now considered (in most circles) one of the "longest running" and "most successful" MMOs out there... I'd say their "design choices" have been above-par, and they've been able to make a significant portion of this playerbase very happy with their design decisions--both by creating a variety of things to create (hence, the various ATs), and by listening to those of us who whine on the forums and taking any "legitimate" suggestions to heart.


QFT. This is why this whole thread has become so controversial, IMO... It's because Khelds aren't immediately quantifiable like all the other ATs happen to be that causes this rift among players as to their "effectiveness."

I've said before to other people (in the Kheld section of the forums) that I think Kheld performance really comes down to the player--more so than other ATs.

I think my point is best illustrated in this statement:

If a poorly played VEAT joins the team, a Vet with a trained eye might immediately notice it, but it may not be apparent on a PuG. If a poorly played HEAT joins the team, it will become glaringly obvious who is underperforming.

This is not to say that you have to be "uber" to play a Kheld... Nor is it saying that "playing VEATs is a snoozefest"... What it IS saying is that you *may* have to put some more thought and effort into playing a "specialized" OR "generalized" Kheld than you had to do with any of the other ATs.

Then again, you may all be like EvilGeko and think Khelds are the easiest and most straightforward AT to play.

Considering the amount of posts asking for help in the Kheld forums, I'd say the previous statement would be untrue about the overwhelming majority.

QFT.

It was obviously a specific design choice, and one that they decided worked as-is (with a few minor changes here and there over 12 issues)...

I also agree that it doesn't reflect poorly on the player community. The fact that not everyone can get into the AT doesn't speak poorly of their play skills... It mainly represents that the Devs were trying to reach a specific portion of the player community's playstyle desires.

What?!?!? "Options?" "Variety?"

DOOOOOOOOOM!!!!

Seriously though, I think the first part of your statement may be why I like them so much. I lead approximately 90% of the teams I'm on, and have no problems "spearheading" anything we're doing, up to and including taking alpha strikes from AVs on the STF, soloing the mass of Romans in front of Romulus at the end of the iTF in its entirety, or running headfirst into Rularu, Carnies, or Malta before anyone on the rest of the team. Without dying.

Anyone who thinks that Khelds don't have the ability to "spearhead" a team effort obviously has no idea of the capabilities of a Kheldian.

I agree the low levels can be quite a pain. Not "impossible," but a pain. Does that mean they're not "effective?" Absolutely not.

On the other hand, I don't think Warshades are overpowered. I think they're "late bloomers." Before you start saying Warshades are "overpowered," you might want to look at some of these scrappers who can solo AVs...

Not much to add to that. Staying at the "resist cap" or "god mode" as I like to call it isn't an "afk" playstyle. It requires some active work, strategy, risk assesment, and real-time battle strategy, especially if a mob fight is lasting a bit longer than originally anticipated.

Like, LX said, "when everything works according to plan."

Problem is... It never does.

/Agreed.

Just making a general statement "Khelds are underpowered" is a opinionistic statement that doesn't prove a single thing, especially when I can prove otherwise...

I have absolutely nothing against anyone who doesn't like the AT. I also have the same urge to say "LRN2PLAY" when I hear complaints about Khelds, but on the same token, I have no problem helping anyone learn how to play the AT. However, just making a "blanket statement" that the AT is "ineffective" just because you don't like it....

....I call BS.

Although I wholeheartedly agree that fun is subjective, you seem to be missing the "larger picture" here. If I may illustrate:

Individual's personal opinion on the objective of the game: "Defeat your enemies"

General objective of the game: "Have fun" (no matter if that's "defeat your enemies," "make money at WWs," "chat for hours in AP," "organize events," "hold massive costume contests," etc., etc.)

Overall "objective of the game" (from a Dev/business model perspective): Make sure as many people as possible "have fun" and continue to subscribe to the game in order to continue to receive a paycheck.

Obviously, the "single driving objective of the game" isn't "defeat your enemies" for every member of this playerbase. It's different for everyone. And that is driven by what each individual thinks is "fun." That may be to "defeat your enemies" in the quickest way possible, or it may be chatting for 10 minutes in broadcast to help out a fellow player with something.

Who knows.


Your statement is true, but it also downplays the importance of fun INTO your equasion.

If your playerbase doesn't think an AT is fun, it won't matter HOW sound your math skills are or how "perfectly built" you think your AT is.

That's what this whole discussion is about though... An individual's FEELINGS on whether a specific AT is "fail." (i.e. their quantified belief on fun for the aforementioned AT)

I have posted videos on a Kheldian's effectiveness against "seemingly unsurmountable odds" (I say "seemingly unsurmountable" because of the way Khelds have been repeatedly put down as "underperforming"), but you prefer not to watch them.

I don't think the question should be "as efficiently as other ATs"... The question should be "can they do it effectively," and I believe it's already been proven they can. (please refer back to my original definition of "effective," as this post has gotten pretty long)

I believe once Going Rogue comes out, this will be a moot point, as I *believe* we'll all be able to switch sides anyway... Still waiting for more details on that...

And then there are those like myself who hate the shapeshifting mechanic and DON'T complain about the lack of power--only the lack of mez protection...

So far, neither side really has shown any "evidence" that Kheldians "aren't effective." So, stating one side or the other doesn't have "facts or reason" is pretty baseless.

You are exactly right.

There are waaaay too many variable effects that come up in actual play for Kheldians to come up with an actual quantifiable "This is what Kheldians can do" generalistic statement. If you're testing in a tri-form build, you're not taking into effect the variables that come into play while running Inky Aspect constantly. Or the Leadership powers while playing in human-only form. Or any number of other things I could name...

I can say right now without any testing whatsoever that they won't compare. That's because I don't believe Kheldians are supposed to be exactly like any of the other ATs. Thus, their "unique-ness."

Which is why I don't believe Dwarf is worth it in solo-play even WITH the "break free" effect associated with it.

As stated before, I do not believe Khelds should be "compared" to the other ATs, as they are their own unique AT. A WS cannot hope to reach the "I can solo AVs" level of a Scrapper, so why exactly are we comparing them?

I think you're onto something here...

That's too bad...

Actually, I say the more enemies the better for my Warshade... The fewer the enemies, the worse you'll see me (or any Warshade) perform...

I know, I know... You're coming from a PB perspective...

That reminds me of what Mod08 told me when I met him at Comic-Con this year...

Me: "Hey! I'm AlienOne"
Mod08: "Ah, so YOU'RE the one with the 'casually purpled out Warshade'!"



XD

"Alien"

Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades The way you play changes your IO slotting..

This, please.
It's all subjective! Subjective I tell you!
[Faceplant]

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Well, threads die, as all things do, but this topic is of the nature that everybody can't really "agree to disagree". See, it's not something like, "I like U2" vs. "I don't like U2 - Lets agree to disagree." In that scenario, it boils down to only a matter of taste, and we can agree that we simply have different tastes.

However, when getting a service or product, some are happy with it and others are not. The ones that aren't happy with it want want a better service/product, and we can't rightly ask, "Hey, can't we just agree to disagree?"

Say, we have the same model of car. I'm happy with the gas mileage. You are not. You are within every right to demand better mileage. I can think you have unreasonable expectations. I can tell you if you don't like it to get another car. But I can't tell you to just agree to disagree with me and call it a day.

I think the analogy should be clear - of course, you're free to disagree

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Socorro However, when getting a service or product, some are happy with it and others are not. The ones that aren't happy with it want want a better service/product, and we can't rightly ask, "Hey, can't we just agree to disagree?"

The product here and the service here, as this is an MMO, is merely the ability to connect to the servers and play the game with as little flaws as possible. It is however up to the Devs to decide what should be considered a flaw, a bug, or an imbalance.

If any of the items on the following list were false, I'd say you have a good argument there in favor of not agreeing-to-disagree, but as things stand, I disagree with your analogy and analysis based on this following list:

1. Kheldians were always considered (by the Devs at least) a team-oriented class and not easily solo-friendly.
2. The game is balanced around SO enhancements.
3. On normal difficulty settings and most missions against most enemy groups Kheldians can solo with performance levels that are acceptable by the Devs, and when these performance levels are not acceptable the Devs do change things.
4. Kheldians were always supposed to be more complex than any other blue-side class.
5. Last but not least, this thread was attempting to discuss the issue of "Why do HEATs feel like fail". Emphasis on feel, you know? Not hard cold facts, but feelings. Something which people can agree to disagree on.

So, yeah... lets agree to disagree and conclude this thread with the realization that different classes feel different to different people and while we can discuss, contrast and compare their performance, our performance analysis still has to be bound by the vision of the Devs for each class we attempt to analyze, and most of all, by the vision of the Devs for the game as a whole. Whenever we forget this simple yet important rule, we can expect massive Internet Drama, thread-locking and requests to agree-to-disagree...

EDIT :: As a response to your car analogy, let me say that Scrappers are like my dad's trusty old FIAT car that would always get us to were we wanted to go, quite fast and with very modest requirements on both wallet and driver, while Kheldians can be considered a PORSCHE as they're shiny, cost a lot, impress the girls, but at the end of the day, if you use them for mere transportation, they are either overkill or performing on such inefficient levels a FIAT would suffice.

What's more is that in this game, we can all enjoy our FIAT's and eventually get our PORSCHE, so really what's the argument about anyway? Do you truly wish to bring the PORSCHE to the performance levels of the FIAT so that everyone will be able to have one without having to put in the proper investment that actually brings a PORSCHE it the level of admiration it gets from the gals?

Quote:

Originally Posted by GibberingLunatic Well to completely derail this thread (in a sense) I would like to put out that this epic flamewar of sorts has me re-rolling a warshade and I'm starting from point zero as a human. All the way through. period. XD

Quoted for Epicness and Awesomesaucity!

It can't be as bad as lower level MA/SR Scrappers.
I swear you get punished brutally for little or no reason...

Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GibberingLunatic ...For once the HEAT actually felt... Well Epic...

Darn it, I just gotta say it: "Pics or it didn't happen"

Oh, it did happen, but I think that was a once-in-a-lifetime experience as the next time I tried, I promptly faceplanted because I was mezzed before I could pull Pulsar out my butt and by the time I shifted to dwarf, I was down to 15hp.
One more hit and I was sucking on the concrete. lol

Was still awesome though, even though I burned out all my endurance in those few moves because everything I can slot for damage is slotted up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GibberingLunatic Oh, it did happen, but I think that was a once-in-a-lifetime experience as the next time I tried, I promptly faceplanted because I was mezzed before I could pull Pulsar out my butt and by the time I shifted to dwarf, I was down to 15hp.

I was just teasing, and I know it can happen because that's how my TriFormPB can play at times.

However, may I suggest then you approach the enemies in Dwarf form, then when they're all around you, use a keybind that switches you to Human-form and executes Pulsar at the same time, then use your Human-form heal power(s) before switching back to Dwarf/Nova or mixing it up with more Human-form powers like Solar Flare or Photon Seekers? (when you have them, of course). It works wonders for me, so I just thought I'd share...

Trust me, the tactic can work wonders both to defeat enemies quickly and to entertain your teammates, especially if while you perform this trick, you also use the following as your battlecry: "I *am* the Omega Bomb!". Many a Crab-spider have laughed... and one once told me: "Yes... yes you are!"

I think I posted eariler my current warshade/peacebringer keybinds, you could have a look at those and add/change whatever so I could give em a shot

Yes I've considered it, but do VEATs pay dps/survivability for their mez protection by comparison? I don't believe so. Maybe the payment should be in versatility/flexibility /shrug - if not form-limited or form-restrictive, then perhaps being duration based.

I personally wouldn't want shapeshifting eliminated either, as it's the one thing that makes HEATs really stand out (even if it does make them trickier to play than other ATs and require more attentiveness than most).

I also feel that the "jack-of-all trades" tag only applies to Kheldians intending to tank, i.e. ones taking dwarf form, slotting it well, and often playing in groups that need/want tanking - even then you need to work hard to maintain aggro as you lack a taunt aura. Also if CoV has proved anything it's that tanking isn't needed except for perhaps some AVs/GMs. I slotted dwarf well on my tri-form WS, sacrificing human form usefulness, and yet 99.9% of the time my WS is basically just a damage dealer as tanking is not needed/wanted. Besides tanking and damage-dealing I don't see any other roles Kheldians can claim (my WS only controls as well as some of my Blasters, less well than some of my Corruptors/Defender, certainly not on par with my Controllers/Dominators).

As for mez protection, limiting it to human-form only would be a balance in itself for Peacebringers over Warshades (as I feel WS's do their best work in nova form backed by mire/eclipse), and would be no help whatsoever to my WS playstyle.

Personally I'd still like to see mag2-3 passive mez protection for nova and human forms of both Kheldians, just so that being mezzed wasn't guaranteed in large spawns from factions where every minion/lieut has a chance of mez on their basic ranged attack (Carnies, Rikti, Malta's grenades, etc.), but not high enough to guarantee mez immunity against persistent mez-specialised bosses/lieuts (if you don't otherwise take care of them).

Then to close the gap between PBs and WSs, and because PBs favour human form moreso than WSs, maybe PBs could have a further mez protection buff to stack on their passive, either click-based and duration-limited, or (my preference) on the later toggles.

The Blaster-solution might work too - letting PBs and WSs use their (first) 2 single-target ranged attacks in human and nova forms when mezzed, like Defiance (Mk2) allows - the blasts on human form look pretty weak on paper, but this would be a big boon to nova form.

As for other ways to improve PBs (and notably damage output) compared to WSs, I like your -res idea from your other thread. Some other solutions might be making the bonus damage for PBs self-buff based (like Blaster Defiance or Brute Fury) - perhaps even make it like Dominator Domination, where you build a bar by attacking, then release it as a self-buff with an inherent power button. You could make this bar form-dependent, as from what I've read PBs don't form-dance as much as WSs (again, not played a PB, so not totally sure) - then a PB could build the bar up in any of their 3 forms, then trigger the buff (which could be 30-60secs of enhanced damage, perhaps with some mez protection like Domination has), but switching forms might zero your existing bar (this would be similar to Warrior Rage in WoW, where, when I played it, changing stances would zero all of your built-up Rage - admittedly WoW's Rage is used to power attacks, rather than as a direct damage boost, but the principal is similar so I mention it here).

I'd also like to see Dwarf forms getting a damage/taunt aura to help them tank better in those cases where you might like to try and fill in for a tanker (or a brute/mm built for tanking), for those who enjoy that playstyle. It wouldn't affect me much with my WS, but it might help PBs - maybe that could be made PB-only as well to close the gap between both Kheldian ATs /shrug.

Oh I like your idea for turning the PB heal into a PBAE heal too, but then I'd like to see the same done with /Storm's O2 Boost as well because I dislike playing characters with targeted heals (but otherwise love /Storm), so I'm probably biased. Turning PBs into more of a support-role Kheldian might ultimately be the best way to differentiate them from the damage/survivability kings that WSs are.