Why do HEATs feel like fail?
By
Afterimage,
Posted on: 2009-10-10 13:43 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Deciding factor for whom? That's not my deciding factor. |
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
Here's where I court controversy. The short answer here is that DPS is the deciding factor because Khelds don't have as much else going for them as you might think.
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I'm not concerned about DPS and the amount of orange numbers I produce. I'm after fun and concept most times I play unless I'm for a set purpose, like MoSTF, etc (and in those instances I use my mains).
I would wager far more people play this game for fun, escape and concept over their DPS. PBs and WS are very capable of filling multiple roles on teams, something most other ATs are incapable of along with providing some great fun in powers and graphics.
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It's probably worth noting here that the new spawn rules we got in I16 can, indeed, create situations like this. I recently ran a Cimeroran mission spawned for three people where I encountered 5 successive spawns of two bosses.|
Originally Posted by LordXenite
Naturally if you put a Kheldian against a chain of single Bosses, one Boss after the other, this would be the worst case scenario, a case which normally never happens in the game as the Devs designed it!
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However, I take that as less a defense of the notion that DPS should be a overriding consideration for character design and more of a suggestion that the new spawn algorithms may not be doing sensible things.
It's hard to say anything should be balanced around what happens when you solo things meant for 3 characters, of course.
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When the Devs keep telling us that "normal" spawns should include enemies of all ranks: minions, lieutenants and bosses (AE); and when Scrappers are the ones that come up with special challenges that involve going up against +4 Bosses that hit hard and mez hard, I doubt any analysis that attempts to judge the performance of any AT when it bases itself on soloing hard-targets.
Originally Posted by UberGuy
It's hard to say anything should be balanced around what happens when you solo things meant for 3 characters, of course.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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Fine, but as has been put forth, 'Fun' is not something that should be brought to the table with comparing things in this game, such as ATs, Builds, Sets, etc. My 10-year plays CoH every once in a while, and he has 'fun' with his characters. His toons, in all their badly-slotted-wrong-powers-picked glory, are extremely fun for him, but that doesn't mean they should be compared to other ATs/Builds on any objective quantifiable basis.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
Deciding factor for whom? That's not my deciding factor.
I'm not concerned about DPS and the amount of orange numbers I produce. I'm after fun and concept most times I play unless I'm for a set purpose, like MoSTF, etc (and in those instances I use my mains). I would wager far more people play this game for fun, escape and concept over their DPS. PBs and WS are very capable of filling multiple roles on teams, something most other ATs are incapable of along with providing some great fun in powers and graphics. |
Concerning DPS. In this game, all goals and objectives come down to DPS, in the sense that, without Damage, your not going to complete any mission at all. Now, DPS need not be straightfoward. Debuffing opponent's defenses, buffing teammate's damage, buffing your (and teammates) Defenses so your DPS is greater relative to the opponents you're fighting, Tanking so that teammates can stay alive long enough so that their DPS will defeat the foe, Locking Foes down while other's damage them... Everything we do must somehow contribute to this complex DPS equation or else we're not effective.
You cannot beat a mission simply by 'holding' everything, or just by being so tough nothing can hurt you. Unless you can damage the opponents to some degree (or help do so) you're ineffective.
Back to Khelds: remembering that all ATs must contribute to damage either directly or indirectly, if Khelds are not straight DPS, then they must of contribute in other ways that rasies a team's effective DPS. The question is, do they do that in a comparable way to other ATs? As noted elsewhere, any particular area where a Kheld can contribute to damage generation, another AT can do better. That means we have to consider their effectiveness as generalists.
So, does a Kheld's overall 'generalist' contribution compare to a team's damage generating effectiveness on a level approaching the more Niche ATs? I don't really know, although I tend to think Khelds fall a bit short. If it's really true, that they do not, then we might as well be honest about it; Khelds need some more work done to them.
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Yet he manages to play the game just the same and enjoy the $15 a month. So who is right? Those that follow the holy orange numbers of DPS or those that follow the subjective fun?|
Originally Posted by Socorro
Fine, but as has been put forth, 'Fun' is not something that should be brought to the table with comparing things in this game, such as ATs, Builds, Sets, etc. My 10-year plays CoH every once in a while, and he has 'fun' with his characters. His toons, in all their badly-slotted-wrong-powers-picked glory, are extremely fun for him, but that doesn't mean they should be compared to other ATs/Builds on any objective quantifiable basis.
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Originally Posted by Socorro
Concerning DPS. In this game, all goals and objectives come down to DPS, in the sense that, without Damage, your not going to complete any mission at all. Now, DPS need not be straightfoward. Debuffing opponent's defenses, buffing teammate's damage, buffing your (and teammates) Defenses so your DPS is greater relative to the opponents you're fighting, Tanking so that teammates can stay alive long enough so that their DPS will defeat the foe, Locking Foes down while other's damage them... Everything we do must somehow contribute to this complex DPS equation or else we're not effective.
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Not to mention Khelds themselve add to this mysthical team's DPS in many forms and variations.
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Originally Posted by Socorro
Back to Khelds: remembering that all ATs must contribute to damage either directly or indirectly, if Khelds are not straight DPS, then they must of contribute in other ways that rasies a team's effective DPS. The question is, do they do that in a comparable way to other ATs? As noted elsewhere, any particular area where a Kheld can contribute to damage generation, another AT can do better. That means we have to consider their effectiveness as generalists.
So, does a Kheld's overall 'generalist' contribution compare to a team's damage generating effectiveness on a level approaching the more Niche ATs? I don't really know, although I tend to think Khelds fall a bit short. If it's really true, that they do not, then we might as well be honest about it; Khelds need some more work done to them. |
Fine. Fine fine fine. No amount of calculation or debate is ever going to resolve anything here. I propose a practical test. A challenge, if you will.
Let's find the best scrapper/brute player out there. Someone with the inf to purple out a character. He also has to be indisputably proficient with his powers, knowledgeable about how to use them most effectively, familiar with the best attack chains, etc. For this I nominate Bill Z Bubba.
Then we need to find the best warshade out there. Perhaps the best two, one all-human and one shifter. Same stipulations as the scrapper/brute case. I'm not sure who'd be best here, but I'd imagine AlienOne could fill the all human warshade case and either Princess or LordXenite for the TriForm.
Finally, we have to find the best two peacebringers, one all-human and one TriForm.
Now we get them all into an AE arc two at a time. Five missions set at +0x8 with normal spawns, all in the same outdoor city map. You know the one I'm talking about; I don't know its name. You can have the scrapper/brute run down one lane and the kheldian down the other, killing everything along the way. Referees should be present to record time. First mission against council, then freaks, then CoT, then Carnies, then Malta. Compare the times and we'll get a practical comparison of how much DPS a kheldian can pump out.
If a kheldian comes out to be 75% as effective as the scrapper/brute, I'd call it a worthwhile trade off to have the capabilities that it has.
For the record, I'm still in the "it's more important to have fun than big orange numbers" camp.
Where to now?
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don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Why not a defender or controller, what about their DPS?
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Fine. Fine fine fine. No amount of calculation or debate is ever going to resolve anything here. I propose a practical test. A challenge, if you will.
Let's find the best scrapper/brute player out there. Someone with the inf to purple out a character. He also has to be indisputably proficient with his powers, knowledgeable about how to use them most effectively, familiar with the best attack chains, etc. For this I nominate Bill Z Bubba. Then we need to find the best warshade out there. Perhaps the best two, one all-human and one shifter. Same stipulations as the scrapper/brute case. I'm not sure who'd be best here, but I'd imagine AlienOne could fill the all human warshade case and either Princess or LordXenite for the TriForm. Finally, we have to find the best two peacebringers, one all-human and one TriForm. Now we get them all into an AE arc two at a time. Five missions set at +0x8 with normal spawns, all in the same outdoor city map. You know the one I'm talking about; I don't know its name. You can have the scrapper/brute run down one lane and the kheldian down the other, killing everything along the way. Referees should be present to record time. First mission against council, then freaks, then CoT, then Carnies, then Malta. Compare the times and we'll get a practical comparison of how much DPS a kheldian can pump out. |
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Hey, we can do those too, but the primary discussion here seems to be comparing kheldians to scrappers.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
Why not a defender or controller, what about their DPS?
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Might as well do this same challenge with blasters, tanks, corruptors, masterminds, dominators, stalkers, VEATs...
EDIT: My point was, it's rather obvious that a defender's goal is not DPS. A kheldian, while not pigeon-holed, is oft portrayed as having the goal of DPS.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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How would you rank the DPS of a Scrapper, Tank, Blaster and Kheld?|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Hey, we can do those too, but the primary discussion here seems to be comparing kheldians to scrappers.
Might as well do this same challenge with blasters, tanks, corruptors, masterminds, dominators, stalkers, VEATs... EDIT: My point was, it's rather obvious that a defender's goal is not DPS. A kheldian, while not pigeon-holed, is oft portrayed as having the goal of DPS. |
Me?
1. Blaster
2. Scrapper
3. Kheldian
4. Tank
That seems balanced to me.
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Nope. Kheldians are a support\dps hybrid class. There's not a Khel player out there that could keep up with any of the scrapper heavies running around these boards when you're talking about speed through a mission solo.| For this I nominate Bill Z Bubba |
And as I told LX, I'm done with this fight. Me and my human-only warshade no longer care what the devs do with Kheldians. Too many folks want to keep them as is for me to waste any more time on trying to get them fixed.
As Castle has told me about other topics, some times good enough is good enough. A Khel can solo pretty well on the base difficulty. That's good enough for many.
Be well, people of CoH.
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Actually if you want to prove an AT is well designed and performing accordingly, you'd need a novice person playing the AT with the lowest possible knowledge. If only as a test group. You would also need to perform this test with an SO slotted build, again for the same reason of having a test group. The same goes for your Kheldian candidates.
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Let's find the best scrapper/brute player out there. Someone with the inf to purple out a character. He also has to be indisputably proficient with his powers, knowledgeable about how to use them most effectively, familiar with the best attack chains, etc.
Now, you're skewing the test-case against the Kheldians because while your Scrapper will have some critical hits and your Brute will enjoy Fury, the Kheldians will have no inherent buff to speak of. Further more, what's the point of running anything at +0/x8? This will not persuade the Devs that there's any reason to re-design or fix anything about Kheldians just because you've demonstrated that Scrappers and Brutes solo better than Kheldians in extreme situation... that's already a give since both Scrappers and Brutes are supposed to be the most damaging in melee! All you're doing is just taking a statement made by the Devs and asking them to go back on it and change the game so that Kheldians can perform on the same level (DPS-wise) that Scrappers/Brutes can. No one ever promised us THAT anyway, so why ask for it? Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Now we get them all into an AE arc two at a time. Five missions set at +0x8 with normal spawns...
What about specific Scrappers/Brute power-set combinations? What about Kheldian build variants... can't people see how complicated this issue truly is and why testing things in extreme situations isn't going to prove Kheldians require any changes?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Referees should be present to record time. First mission against council, then freaks, then CoT, then Carnies, then Malta. Compare the times and we'll get a practical comparison of how much DPS a kheldian can pump out.
Who promised us that they even should?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
If a kheldian comes out to be 75% as effective as the scrapper/brute...
I think most people who play this game, should be able to predict the results of your experiment, and here is my personal prediction:
I'm not the best TriFormer out there and I think this test will not amount any evidence that will lead to changes to Kheldians, but I'm always up for bashing Council etc; so Ascendantia (Lv50 TriForm PB) and Dark Absolution (Lv50 TriFormShade) are waiting on the Test Server already. 
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Precisely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Nope. Kheldians are a support\dps hybrid class. There's not a Khel player out there that could keep up with any of the scrapper heavies running around these boards when you're talking about speed through a mission solo.
He did indeed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
And as I told LX, I'm done with this fight.
And 'fixed' here may mean different things to different people, and to me it never meant being able to dish out more DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Me and my human-only warshade no longer care what the devs do with Kheldians. Too many folks want to keep them as is for me to waste any more time on trying to get them fixed.
And here we have it from the horses' mouth, even though it was a Demon relayed the message Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
As Castle has told me about other topics, some times good enough is good enough. A Khel can solo pretty well on the base difficulty. That's good enough for many.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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Yup. It never meant more DPS for me either. Funny thing that, isn't it?| And 'fixed' here may mean different things to different people, and to me it never meant being able to dish out more DPS. |
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| And here we have it from the horses' mouth, even though it was a Demon relayed the message |
But that's the way the cookie crumbles. Some ATs suck at soloing. Some ATs are great at one thing while lousy at another. Some ATs are barely good enough at many things at once. That's where I see Khels. Barely good enough at a lot of things.
Ahh well. My warshade looks damn cool regardless.
Be well, people of CoH.
It seems my motives were completely misinterpreted. This is mostly my fault for not being as clear as I could be.
I was not suggesting the "challenge" with the idea that a kheldian could keep up with a scrapper.
I was not suggesting the challenge to try to prove that anything needed to be changed.
My idea came to me because there was an analysis that was being attempted to figure out how much DPS a kheldian could produce. But the math was too complicated, what with specific attack chains and time to shift and all that figured into it.
The only way to get a good analysis, in my opinion, was to do it comparatively. This requires a large sample size and a reliable test metric. Thus the idea of using +0/x8 on five separate maps. We know how much DPS a scrapper puts out. If we had a comparative time to complete, we could assume a proportional amount of DPS that is being achieved.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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So what were we arguing about?
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Yup. It never meant more DPS for me either. Funny thing that, isn't it?
Ah. I agree with that...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
The only way to get a good analysis, in my opinion, was to do it comparatively.
It's the +0/x8 I doubt because quite frankly, I don't see the benefit of having the x8 setting factored in as useful because I think it's already been proven that Kheldians are not the best solo class in the game, as opposed to Scrappers. There's a reason why Scrappers are recommended to newcomers who want a class that's easy to solo and simple to play...
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
This requires a large sample size and a reliable test metric. Thus the idea of using +0/x8 on five separate maps. We know how much DPS a scrapper puts out. If we had a comparative time to complete, we could assume a proportional amount of DPS that is being achieved.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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I'm late to the thread, but I saw this and wanted to chime in.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
How's that Khel of yours do solo at +4/x8 by the way? |
The answer is "Quite well, thank you!"
...in CoH racing to 50 is like trying to race to the end of your vacation. -Arcanaville
Debt barely slows down levelling these days. It's just a little bar that measures how much Awesome you've generated recently. (If you're not getting debt, you're just not trying to generate Awesome hard enough.) -Kelenar
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This could be the first time I have read something Bill Z has said and wondered, "Has he even played a Kheldian before?". |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Course, only being able to solo on lower diff levels also causes many to avoid the AT completely.
That's where I see Khels. Barely good enough at a lot of things. |
And yes I know he has but how such an experienced and savy veteran player can have such a different play experience than me leaves me boggled.
I most commonly solo on a +2/x5 setting when I don't feel like working hard, and ramp up based on how good a workout I want to get.
This is far from only on the lower settings by any definition.
If you PL'd to 50 just to get an "epic" thinking you'd be �ber, you're going to be sorely disappointed with the HEATs, because the VEATs were designed so that anyone with one good finger and a braincell can rock the toggles.
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Eh, others have given their viewpoint, but mine would be... do you really even NEED to test it this way? There will always be diehard people that don't like one AT or another, but if you've honestly played Kheldians, you can't say they're incapable of playing through the regular content (the difficulty setting varying by the build and player). They could use some tweaking, but that's no different than many powersets.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
It seems my motives were completely misinterpreted. This is mostly my fault for not being as clear as I could be.
I was not suggesting the "challenge" with the idea that a kheldian could keep up with a scrapper. I was not suggesting the challenge to try to prove that anything needed to be changed. My idea came to me because there was an analysis that was being attempted to figure out how much DPS a kheldian could produce. But the math was too complicated, what with specific attack chains and time to shift and all that figured into it. The only way to get a good analysis, in my opinion, was to do it comparatively. This requires a large sample size and a reliable test metric. Thus the idea of using +0/x8 on five separate maps. We know how much DPS a scrapper puts out. If we had a comparative time to complete, we could assume a proportional amount of DPS that is being achieved. |
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
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Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
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Originally Posted by Obsidian_Force2
I most commonly solo on a +2/x5 setting when I don't feel like working hard, and ramp up based on how good a workout I want to get.
This is far from only on the lower settings by any definition.
I don't know if many people would claim Kheldians cannot solo +4/x8 missions or not, but depending on the enemy type in the mission, the build and the players' level of alertness, comfort and commitment, I do know that results vary greatly between I cannot solo this to Tedious to No sweat, can I haz some moar please?Quote:
Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
...but if you've honestly played Kheldians, you can't say they're incapable of playing through the regular content (the difficulty setting varying by the build and player)...
Whatever the best Kheldian results of soloing a +4/x8 mission may be though, I think most Scrappers out there would probably accomplish the same results (if not better) with much less effort, and I think that's what the debate has always been about, the level of effort require to accomplish anything worthwhile.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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Honestly, I have about 3 kelds and I have to say, Do NOT do sewer teams when your a low level, Do NOT solo and most of all.
They really need to fix the resistance to Quantums especially after you get the quantum energy shield. I see no diffrence in having it up or having it off, I still get clobbered by one shot. (and before someone asks It's 6 slotted with up-to-date IO's)
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Wait, Quantums hurt? Unless it's a boss I pretty much ignore the shots completely since they long ago removed the stun from it. I don't know if it still does knockdown as I slot every squishy with Karma or Steadfast at as low a level as possible.
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Originally Posted by GibberingLunatic
They really need to fix the resistance to Quantums especially after you get the quantum energy shield. I see no diffrence in having it up or having it off, I still get clobbered by one shot. (and before someone asks It's 6 slotted with up-to-date IO's)
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Wait, what?|
Originally Posted by Lazarus
Wait, Quantums hurt? Unless it's a boss I pretty much ignore the shots completely since they long ago removed the stun from it. I don't know if it still does knockdown as I slot every squishy with Karma or Steadfast at as low a level as possible.
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Thats wrong. The stun still takes effect. And Knockdown. And, yes, you can still be two shotted by them. At least thats happened recently when playing my PB.
Someone should probably check that though.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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If people are expecting the ease of a Scrapper from any AT, that is most definitely part of the problem (and I think a lot of posters do). Scrappers are extremely good soloers and are ALMOST to the point of being overpowered. They are balanced a bit with survivability and their range limits, but they're certainly very strong. You don't have to be a Scrapper to do well in this game, however, and soloing isn't the only way.|
Originally Posted by LordXenite
I don't know if many people would claim Kheldians cannot solo +4/x8 missions or not, but depending on the enemy type in the mission, the build and the players' level of alertness, comfort and commitment, I do know that results vary greatly between I cannot solo this to Tedious to No sweat, can I haz some moar please?
Whatever the best Kheldian results of soloing a +4/x8 mission may be though, I think most Scrappers out there would probably accomplish the same results (if not better) with much less effort, and I think that's what the debate has always been about, the level of effort require to accomplish anything worthwhile. |
The balance point is just being able to play through however you want, and CoX is pretty good for that.
As for the Quantums... I thought they took out the stun, and you can resist the damage now (which I think is mostly energy). So depending on what form, shields, and buffs you have, you'll be able to take their hits more. They certainly hurt some, but nothing like they used to. I've finally started plugging away at a Warshade, and I was defeating Voids just fine in the first story arc (level 5-10), and even Void minions used to be a hard thing at low levels (not so much at higher levels, so remember to appreciate that difference). Not so this time around.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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i was more puzzled by the 6-slotting of Quantum Shield... Then again i don't slot IO's until SO levels at least. At that point 6-slotting means the last 3 slots offer a minuscule amount more resistance, so basically a near complete waste of 3 slots on an AT that's usually slot-starved. ((0.o))
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Originally Posted by Lazarus
Wait, Quantums hurt? Unless it's a boss I pretty much ignore the shots completely since they long ago removed the stun from it. I don't know if it still does knockdown as I slot every squishy with Karma or Steadfast at as low a level as possible.
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Dr. Todt's theme.
i make stuff...
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I originally 6-slotted it to test a theory if the shields really offer any protection... Unfortunately the answer is pretty much no. And still, PB's should not travel in the sewers at all. for some reason Shadow Cysts like to pop up when you least expect them and wipe out the entire team in one go leaving you to blame...
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Originally Posted by Schismatrix
i was more puzzled by the 6-slotting of Quantum Shield... Then again i don't slot IO's until SO levels at least. At that point 6-slotting means the last 3 slots offer a minuscule amount more resistance, so basically a near complete waste of 3 slots on an AT that's usually slot-starved. ((0.o))
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At best I expected them to match the solo performance of any of low-damage ranged character while having peaks of both survivability and damage that went above and beyond what the low-damage ranged characters could hope for.
Just because some people hope or feel that Kheldians must measure up to Scrappers does not mean that is true. I only wish the Devs would finally settle this once and for all by specifying what their current vision for Kheldians is.
Even if you are correct with your hunch and Warshades were designed to promise 90% performance of a Scrapper, the question still remains, 90% of which Scrapper power-set combination exactly were you promised...?
EDIT ::
I dare-say, therefore, that had you wanted to check the performance of any AT, you would check it by calculating how fast the AT in question can handle normal missions on a normal difficulty setting with normal SO slotting at Lv50. Only then, after obtaining these performance graphs for each AT, and put them together side by side and analyzed the highs and lows of each graph, only then could you say anything meaningful about the performance of AT X vs AT Y. This is the reason I've always been reluctant to discuss performance issues, because no one wants to actually analyze it the way it should be analyzed!
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