Why do HEATs feel like fail?
By
Afterimage,
Posted on: 2009-10-10 13:43 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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I tend to agree with your assessment of Kheldians but I am not 100% convinced it is a design flaw as much as a difference of design approach not unlike (to me) fire tankers compared to invulnerability tankers.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Translation: You never know what you're going to get with a Khel due to the sloppy design of the AT. No translation needed. Translation: Sometimes a Khel can outshine a player of a regular AT, but please keep in mind that there are bad builds and bad players out there. Translation: Due to the klunky design, long shift animations and poor to situationally decent DPS, Khels are at a disadvantage at the get go. |
I really struggled with both PBs and Warshades for a long time and shelved them repeatedly and then I found a really effective way to play them (tri-form is the only way I enjoy them).
On the one hand I have my bots/FF mastermind which I barely need to pay attention when playing but on the other I have my warshade who requires (by me) a lot more attention when playing. There are probably far more of my characters I would lump in the not needing attention bin than in with the warshades but is it really so wrong to have ATs or powersets within certain ATs that are more attention needing?
I guess I appreciate the variety.
As to the never knowing what you will get, this is very true of Khelds however I think we have all seen enough bad players (and bad pug stories) to know there is never any guarantee with other people. Granted the probability of a horrible Kheld is much higher than a horrible (other AT) but I am still not convinced that it is a bad thing.
We need our Booster Golds.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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As opposed to a team of VEATs, who can sleepwalk through everything.
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Originally Posted by LordXenite
Yes, but the AKT is the only team where if people don't actually work together, things become an Epic teamwipe pretty fast. Hence my interest in them.
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+2 with how many enemies? I had my triform PB fighting above heroic levels and he didn't have issues soloing. Though I suppose he hadn't fought any Carnies yet, Rikti were okay. The bosses were a little slower, but those Rikti bosses are slow for most people unless you can do rare damage like Fire.
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Originally Posted by LordXenite
Hmm... anything that does Psi damage and is resistant to Energy damage would probably make you reconsider that statement.
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Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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Exactly!
Originally Posted by Lazarus
As opposed to a team of VEATs, who can sleepwalk through everything.
I despise being passively overpowered and like to actually "work" to earn my accomplishments. I guess I'm a Hero at heart.
It was +2/x1 if I equate it to the new system, but as you probably guessed it, there were Carnies involved. Sometimes Malta spawns also cause problems, but seeing a Dark Ring Mistress is always a downer when I solo!
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Originally Posted by Grey Pilgrim
+2 with how many enemies? I had my triform PB fighting above heroic levels and he didn't have issues soloing. Though I suppose he hadn't fought any Carnies yet, Rikti were okay. The bosses were a little slower, but those Rikti bosses are slow for most people unless you can do rare damage like Fire.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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(*chuckle* Ok, glinting eye, gleaming blast) Whatever it's called, it's 'hit bind t, tray 1 prepped, go 1, 2, if still good to go, play 3, even 4 maybe cycle, or hit bind h, tray 8 up, 1, 2 , and if it looks good 3 for more and recycle or hit bind b, tray 9 up, 1, 2, but 3 if I'm in trouble...' Seriously, the key play here can get wild, which brings me to...|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Perhaps you meant to say... a glinting eye?
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Originally Posted by LordXenite
Just watch out that you don't get poked in the eye because another soft spot for Kheldians is the godhood syndrome.
This strikes Warshades especially (although PB's are not exempt, Ascendantia provides ample proof of that) where the Kheldian in question would break off from the team and attempt to tackle enemies on their own. Some call this Scrapperlock, I call it the godhood syndrome because being able to blast, tank and heal oneself (coupled with a light/dark theme, of course) may bring a Kheldian to deem themselves godly. Occasionally the Kheldian would be correct, other times, they'd fall flat on their face and have to rez. |
This is an AT where fluid play can only come with some experimentation and a *lot* of practice. In the mid-20's, I'm still developing effective tactics and getting comfortable playing the trays and keys to quickly shift with the progress of the battle.
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Funny, I always fear the Illusionists more with the heroes I'm currently running with. My AR/En Blaster has enough defense to dodge that nasty Mask of Vitiation the Mistresses toss at you, and he can stun and kill them in succession. Those darn Illusionists keep phasing, won't stay stunned, and summon a ton of friends. |
Originally Posted by LordXenite
Exactly!
I despise being passively overpowered and like to actually "work" to earn my accomplishments. I guess I'm a Hero at heart. It was +2/x1 if I equate it to the new system, but as you probably guessed it, there were Carnies involved. Sometimes Malta spawns also cause problems, but seeing a Dark Ring Mistress is always a downer when I solo! |
Not fun for my Blaster or Controller.I can see the reverse being true for a Peacebringer, since they'd probably get hit by Mask of Vitiation, but be able to last through the Illusionists okay.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Because unlike VEATs, HEATs have NO MEZ PROTECTION. Well they do, they just have to sacrifice all their damage for it, whereas VEATs don't sacrifice anything...
Everyone knows that VEATs > HEATs atm. Even the devs do. Of course, nothing will likely be done about it...
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I wholeheartedly do not believe this. You have been proven wrong. Not everyone knows that VEATS > HEATS.
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Originally Posted by Kendai
Everyone knows that VEATs > HEATs atm. Even the devs do. Of course, nothing will likely be done about it...
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Not only is his 'everyone knows' statement wrong, but VEATS are simply not better than HEATS. They are just easier to get to a good level of power and designed so that any simpleton cannot play them badly no matter how hard they try.|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I wholeheartedly do not believe this. You have been proven wrong. Not everyone knows that VEATS > HEATS.
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Giving them everything they can ask for passively makes them EASY, not great.
I have never ever jumped for joy at the sight of a VEAT of any variety, but have been given very large smiles seeing a well played Warshade.
I have groaned when seeing a badly played PB knocking things all over the place like most everyone has, but the perception of VEATS as being so great is because the most idiotic person is still doing a reasonable job even if they just follow the team around with their toggles on. Bad memories live a lot longer than good ones for some reason, but I would take a great player on their HEAT over the same great player on their VEAT almost anyday.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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It amuses me greatly when people ignore math while laying out baseless blanket statements in support of their opinions.
Be well, people of CoH.
HEATs are badly designed. This produces both their low average performance and their high peak performance: if you are fortunate or well-informed and take the powers that were randomly created stupidly good instead of stupidly bad, and learn how to get the most use out of them, you're awesome! If you are not so lucky, you will be in pain.
VEATs are well designed. This produces their good overall performance in anyone's hands: their powers range from pretty good all the way to pretty good, so there are fewer wrong ways to build a VEAT, and a greater degree of build flexibility. Where HEATs are designed so that they can be built to switch from job to job, doing each one pretty well, VEATs are designed so they can be built toward one or more specific jobs, and do that job really well. A VEAT can be one of several combinations of stalker, scrapper, blaster, defender, tank, and mastermind, and all of these build options are viable and playable solo or teamed.
To be crude:
VEATs are a bar of gold - take any piece, and you have gold.
HEATs are a cow pie with a diamond in it - unless you know what you're looking for, you're going to get poo.
I submit that both are playable, and both can be powerful, but one is clearly better designed - unless you feel that "good design" is synonymous with "difficult and inaccessible except to the persistent or well-informed." And if it is, I pray to god that you do not design anything I ever have to use.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
I would submit one simple argument as to why VEATs are better designed than HEATs. VEATs have been around for several issues now without any significant modification. HEATs have been fiddled with repeatedly to make them viable, including the very next issue after they appeared.
This is the devs speaking in deeds, not merely in words. HEATs had issues at introduction and for a long time. Whether or not they still do is subject to debate.
VEATs were well designed from the outset, and haven't required tweaking to get right.
Too many alts to list.
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Actually I do feel that way. I would much prefer if every AT in this game required skill and knowledge to play at all and we could weed out all those who just want the easy mode like VEAT's and those who spend all their time looking for the easiest way to become to most powerful toon they can only to use it to steamroller -1/x8.|
Originally Posted by SpittingTrashcan
I submit that both are playable, and both can be powerful, but one is clearly better designed - unless you feel that "good design" is synonymous with "difficult and inaccessible except to the persistent or well-informed." And if it is, I pray to god that you do not design anything I ever have to use.
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My Warshade was my 2nd toon, I was only a 3 month vet at the time and knew nothing about game mechanics, IO's, mids or binds (Hell I had barely teamed with my first lvl 50 scrapper) and used that toon to teach me pretty much everything I know about the game. I didn't find it that much of a challenge personally since I have the intelligence to read and try and understand things, and I do kind of judge anyone who doesn't 'get' them to be a little stupid (But don't feel bad - I judge a lot of people to be a little stupid). Fine you may not like them, but that is a different matter altogether.
VEAT's are not a challenge, they toggle up and they go - that is poor design for a game. Anything that involves no or little challenge/skill is poor design if it's main purpose is entertainment.
With a VEAT a great player is only going to be slighlty better than a poor player because there is simply no way to do much wrong, with a HEAT the bad players are exposed for what they are - this is a frightening concept for some.
Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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VEATs are indeed probably better designed (in terms of ease of use) than Khelds. I wouldn't argue that (in fact if they hadn't been better designed it wouldn't say a lot for our Devs if they hadn't learned anything in terms of Powerset design over 3 years).|
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
I would submit one simple argument as to why VEATs are better designed than HEATs. VEATs have been around for several issues now without any significant modification. HEATs have been fiddled with repeatedly to make them viable, including the very next issue after they appeared.
This is the devs speaking in deeds, not merely in words. HEATs had issues at introduction and for a long time. Whether or not they still do is subject to debate. VEATs were well designed from the outset, and haven't required tweaking to get right. |
However in terms of design they are a lot "safer" in terms concept for the characters and rather dull compared to HEATs in terms of the powers they get (although I admit I'm mainly speaking from a Warshade PoV). They just don't seem that interesting to me in terms of playing one (that said I used to say the same thing about melee classes before I tried Brutes).
I'm glad that HEATs were done back in Issue 2 or whenever. If they'd been designed recently, going on the dull concept behind the VEATs we'd all be playing Longbow *shudder*
Yes, let's weed out all those paying customers that play to have fun! Let's get rid of them! We'll make sure that this is City of Spreadsheets so that only those of us that don't mind spending a billion inf on our builds can do anything of worth!
Let's return to the days of rooting mez protection and toggles that lock you out of other toggles because that will bring back CHALLENGE!!! You want your negative energy damage resistance? Say goodbye to your S/L damres!
/sarcasm off
How's that Khel of yours do solo at +4/x8 by the way?
Be well, people of CoH.
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You have a very strange definition of "entertainment".
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Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
Anything that involves no or little challenge/skill is poor design if it's main purpose is entertainment.
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It doesn't. I don't need it to. That's why I have a mastermind.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
How's that Khel of yours do solo at +4/x8 by the way?
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My warshade is still the most fun I've ever had playing this game, and no amount of solid math will convince me otherwise. There is no mathematical expression of fun.
Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Hmm. Funny. Not only do I not bother with the numbers, as stated earlier, nor do I do billion INF builds (or anything anywhere close,) but I - as stated earlier - have FAR more fun and enjoy my HEATs far more than my VEATs. My HEATs have no problem accomplishing "anything of worth," just fine, thanks. Including the main point of the *game* from a subscriber's point of view - me *having fun* - as well as NC's - giving me incentive to keep subscribing.|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Yes, let's weed out all those paying customers that play to have fun! Let's get rid of them! We'll make sure that this is City of Spreadsheets so that only those of us that don't mind spending a billion inf on our builds can do anything of worth!
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Is that "Poor" design, or just "different designs?"
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| How's that Khel of yours do solo at +4/x8 by the way? |
I don't play "City of Spreadsheets" either.
For me, HEAT > VEAT, by a LARGE margin. If everything played like a VEAT - or like your scrapper, or every tank like a stone tank - I'd have left LONG ago. If this were still pre-ED, pre-GDN "City of godmode," everyone stand around waiting for the tank to herd the map so one blaster nuke can clear the whole thing - I'd have left long ago as well. Personally I find it amusing that you ask the second after the spreadsheet comment.
Edit: And from Dechs' post, this, 100%:
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| There is no mathematical expression of fun. |
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That's rather amusing. I thought you didn't like VEATs because you found them gimpy? I can provide your quotes if you like. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
For me, HEAT > VEAT, by a LARGE margin. If everything played like a VEAT - or like your scrapper, or every tank like a stone tank - I'd have left LONG ago. If this were still pre-ED, pre-GDN "City of godmode," everyone stand around waiting for the tank to herd the map so one blaster nuke can clear the whole thing - I'd have left long ago as well. Personally I find it amusing that you ask the second after the spreadsheet comment. |
Oh, never mind, quoting you directly is a reading comprehension problem.
Too many alts to list.
Did someone say something?
I thought I heard a buzzing noise. Must've been the wind.
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Ooh, you figured out the ignore function. I'm impressed. Maybe you'll figure out VEATs someday as well.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Did someone say something?
I thought I heard a buzzing noise. Must've been the wind. |
Too many alts to list.
There it is again! Perhaps some bug spray is needed?
Maybe the noisemaker will get the hint. Edit: I doubt it highly though. Pity, that.
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Bill, you do realize no one is saying a VEAT can't be fun for some people, right? Or that the things you like to play aren't viable, right?|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Yes, let's weed out all those paying customers that play to have fun! Let's get rid of them! We'll make sure that this is City of Spreadsheets so that only those of us that don't mind spending a billion inf on our builds can do anything of worth!
Let's return to the days of rooting mez protection and toggles that lock you out of other toggles because that will bring back CHALLENGE!!! You want your negative energy damage resistance? Say goodbye to your S/L damres! /sarcasm off How's that Khel of yours do solo at +4/x8 by the way? |
They're mostly trying to argue against the bias that Kheldians are somehow "fail." (and also the misconception that you can't run one without a ton of cash, as you are implying- my triform Peacebringer is only half slotted out with IOs, and most of those are very cheap sets) Arguing for that does not negate what you find as fun. Memphis Bill or me or someone else not liking VEATs for what they are does not mean we are "clueless." It just means we don't like the playstyle they present to us.
I can see how the ATs are set up, and find what I like. I have mostly Tanks, some Scrappers, Blasters, two Kheldians, two Controllers, and a Stalker. I have difficulty enjoying Defenders and VEATs... not because they're badly set up, just because I don't enjoy their playstyle. Villains are also hard because I don't really enjoy being a villain.
I really have to say it again, look around your bias. Clearly, you do not enjoy playing your Kheldians. That's cool. But it shouldn't make you be dismissive of the AT, either (as you have been more than once in this thread).
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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I rented a movie the other day. It was terrible. All I had to do was hit "play" and the whole thing just ran from beginning to end. No skill or challenge at all.|
Originally Posted by Eiko-chan
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Yes, I'm being facetious. I understand that you (meaning Princess) are referring to games. I wouldn't say you're wrong, but I will say that the design philosophy you espouse would probably result in a game with a much smaller audience - probably too small to sustain it. I will amend my previous statement: HEATs may be, by accident or design, well-suited to the role of "challenge archetype" - which is all well and good for the people who enjoy that sort of thing, and the rest may happily ignore it while helping to pay for the servers you play on and the content you enjoy.
@SPTrashcan
Avatar by Toxic_Shia
Why MA ratings should be changed from stars to "like" or "dislike"
A better algorithm for ordering MA arcs
The great thing about VEATs is that they don't suffer from not having a team. Their inherent is miniscule at best (something like +0.01 max end and something small for health? Its damn hard to find numbers)
Regen: 0.42%/sec
Recov: 1.67%/sec
VEAT:
Regen: 0.5%/sec
Recov: 1.84%/sec
+0.08 regen and +0.17 recov. It's about +20% regen and +10% recovery. It's a free Numina unique, and it basically pays for one toggle. The good thing about it, though, is that it's BASE recovery. Meaning all +recovery and +end bonuses are amplified more than for normal ATs. VEATs tend to run a lot of toggles, so it helps. If you add Health, Stamina, and other +regen/+recov bonuses, you get a bigger benefit than other ATs do.
I'd actually consider it a pretty good inherent power. Its effects just aren't that obvious or apparent. It's no Fury, but it's still nice.