Why do HEATs feel like fail?
By
Afterimage,
Posted on: 2009-10-10 13:43 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Was going to have a lot of quotes but the multi-quote feature has failed me again (stupid undocumented cap).
Khelds benefit from IO sets a lot. Perhaps more than any other AT really. They allow you to get by with less slots in some powers while still having better enhancement in them than you would with SOs or common IOs. Plus the set bonuses are active at all times across the build no matter what form you are in at the time. They don't have to be rares either, I slotted mine up almost entirely with uncommons at level 27 (soonest I can get level 30 IOs and many of my favorite sets start then) and it turned her into a beast compared to what she had been at level 26.
A Peacebringer can get away with being all human, but if you don't go tri-form with a Warshade then you are honestly gimping yourself for most of the game. Human-only WS doesn't really become viable until after you get Eclipse and slot it up.
It is my opinion that Khelds are somewhat underpowered, and it is also my opinion that VEATs are significantly overpowered. They should be closer to somewhere in the middle, but there are some significant differences that would make that balancing very difficult.
Khelds by design are meant to complement the non-epic ATs and as such get the best bonuses from them (although the status protection bonus is pitifully weak compared to the damage and resistance bonuses). VEATs are more designed to complement each other really. Sure they give those leadership benefits to other ATs but unless they have leadership as well they don't get anything back. Plus Khelds are designed to venture into the territory of other ATs without making them feel redundant while VEATs tend to trample all over some ATs (especially Brutes and Stalkers).
An aside on the stacking leadership: playing at the softcap is effin' boring in my opinion. It also cuts alot into the territory of anyone with a buffing primary/secondary.
As for desirability, after I've run out of non-epic ATs I'd rather invite Khelds than VEATs when given the chance. A large part of that is because I run into a lot of friendly Khelds while every other VEAT is a friggin' primma donna who thinks that the entire team is there to cater to them and that they don't need to listen to the leader at all because they're EPIC.
I don't care if your VEAT can solo +4/x8 missions, if you're going to be a jerk as well then your presence is not wanted.
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All I can say is that an All Kheldian Team feels epic as well when a couple of Warshades running Inky Aspect and a Peacebringer hitting Pulsar make a full spawn disoriented and things just go downhill from there for the poor enemies when there's a full squadron of Novas.
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
As for VEATs, GP, the glory comes when teamed with other VEATs. They can be very fun solo, with lots of AoEs on Crabs, hittiness on Banes and Widows, and shielded controlling on Fortunatas. But the true glory comes about with 2+ VEATs. Multi stacked buffs makes them night unkillable, and the various attacks and debuffs they can bring to bear is nothing short of...well..Epic
Kheldians have to work for their Epic, VEATs just... stand there. In my opinion, that's very appropriate thematically. 
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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T'be fair, thats a player fault and not an AT fault.|
Originally Posted by Lazarus
As for desirability, after I've run out of non-epic ATs I'd rather invite Khelds than VEATs when given the chance. A large part of that is because I run into a lot of friendly Khelds while every other VEAT is a friggin' primma donna who thinks that the entire team is there to cater to them and that they don't need to listen to the leader at all because they're EPIC. I don't care if your VEAT can solo +4/x8 missions, if you're going to be a jerk as well then your presence is not wanted. |
Some people are just jerks. I've run into my (un)fair share of jerk Kheld players, same as any other type of AT. Certain players just get a god complex, whatever AT they are on.
Besides, if a VEAT could solo +4/x8, I'd want to know how
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Just stand there and watch things fall over |
Originally Posted by LordXenite
All I can say is that an All Kheldian Team feels epic as well when a couple of Warshades running Inky Aspect and a Peacebringer hitting Pulsar make a full spawn disoriented and things just go downhill from there for the poor enemies when there's a full squadron of Novas.
Kheldians have to work for their Epic, VEATs just... stand there. In my opinion, that's very appropriate thematically. |
But yeah, hell a team of 8 anythings is pretty awesome to see. Scrappers? Chopchoppunchpummelthud. Blasters? BOOM! Next spawn! Kheldians? -insert tooth tingling sounds and alien doom rumblings- Next!
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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If you don't care what I think, why do you bother responding? Odd that. Though I find it amusing that before you complained about the branching mechanic, and now you laud it. Can you keep your complaining in order please? |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
I don't care what you think about that, chuckles. I was, frankly, looking forward to them. I thought the branching mechanic would be an interesting new one (and still think, frankly, it should have been brought in earlier.) You don't want to believe that, too damn bad. I have no reason to lie about it, and if you don't believe that, put me on ignore and quit wasting my time.
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| Did you see my statement about not playing for the numbers? Or the one about better stealth? (which I don't need numbers to see, since bane/widow = "detected as I come up, knocked out of stealth when I got hit" and the stalkers weren't.) |
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Gee, I said this once, and quoted it again just recently: Hmm. Yeah. real tunnel vision there. Absolute lack of wanting to understand them. Except for the whole "I want to play the other options to see what they're like." (Except, admittedly, the fort. Looks a bit too similar when I went over it.) |
I've seen plenty of effective builds of many different types on all flavors of VEATs. Any deficiencies in your experience would have to be left at your doorstep.
Too many alts to list.
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Yes, but the AKT is the only team where if people don't actually work together, things become an Epic teamwipe pretty fast. Hence my interest in them.
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
But yeah, hell a team of 8 anythings is pretty awesome to see. Scrappers? Chopchoppunchpummelthud. Blasters? BOOM! Next spawn! Kheldians? -insert tooth tingling sounds and alien doom rumblings- Next!
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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I dunno about that. Have you ever managed to make it all warshades?
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Originally Posted by LordXenite
Yes, but the AKT is the only team where if people don't actually work together, things become an Epic teamwipe pretty fast. Hence my interest in them.
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
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Picked this out in the blaze of posting. Glad you started enjoying it, Techbot. I would say you should get to SO levels for just about any AT, however. You can get a decent taste of Blasters at low levels, I suppose, but even then, they really open up at later levels. I really love my Ar/En Blaster, and it took me until the mid-20s to have him really shine.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
I...heh...I take it back. Most of it.
I got the gal to 20 with a PuG tonight. My god, the dual build feature is so useful. Nova, Dwarf form...shifting between them two is good fun. I think the new build I had planned can definitely go ahead. Fun times are here! As for VEATs, GP, the glory comes when teamed with other VEATs. They can be very fun solo, with lots of AoEs on Crabs, hittiness on Banes and Widows, and shielded controlling on Fortunatas. But the true glory comes about with 2+ VEATs. Multi stacked buffs makes them night unkillable, and the various attacks and debuffs they can bring to bear is nothing short of...well..Epic I think with PBs certainly, it would be nice if they merged the shields, down to two. You already get passive resistance in the 1st secondary power, why not scrap the second enrg/neg shield and instead give a bonus to the S/L shield that evens out the numbers? Then have the fire/cold shield and add resDebuff or something part to it. Up the basic accuracy of Pulsar. Far too low atm. And then add something else to fill for the merged shield. |
And shifting between forms is the true strength of a Kheldian, which you enjoy as well. Kheldians may not be a specialist AT, but their ability to adjust is what makes them stand out. I can tank in Dwarf for the part of the fight that needs it, then drop to human to wrap things up quicker and the danger to the team is gone.
I hear you about the shields as well... doubt we can get them to remove some, however (cottage rule and all that). They are kind of a drag for a form shifter, as it takes too long to retoggle them. I usually only have the Smash/Lethal one until the 40s, to be honest. I may use them more on my dual build WS, but not much on my tri-form PB.
I posted earlier about Pulsar... it really should be a guaranteed mag 3 Stun at the least. And even then the 3 second cast is far too long. I don't know if I can complain about the accuracy, as that's in line with most of the AOE controls out there (Stalagmites for Earth Controllers has the same accuracy, for instance, though they have more slots to deal with the issue, I suppose). Ugh, but the similar Warshade power has higher accuracy, too. I don't care if it's a cone instead of a PbAOE, that many discrepancies doesn't make sense. *shakes head*
I hear you on the VEATs... it's hard not to like them when they buff everyone's defense, etc. (my Ninjitsu stalker loved it this weekend... he was pretty much tanking against the Rikti because of the VEAT on my team). I'm actually surprised they let VEAT buffs stack, to be honest... with those levels you can justify only having VEATs on your team, to some extent... and I know the devs don't like that.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
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Since Warshades can usually double-stack disorient on Bosses, I don't see why an All Warshade Team would not work, and depending on the type of enemy, an All Warshade Team could conceivably split up, but that's highly situational because of how each WS would be built and may require players be on top of their game more so than if they worked together.
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
I dunno about that. Have you ever managed to make it all warshades?
An All Warshade Team, however, hasn't happened yet IIRC in our SG, partially because I don't yet have a Lv50 WS on Infinity. 
I usually work towards that goal when I'm on CoH, but since he's in a level-pact with my wife's PB, it's going rather slowly at the moment.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
A Peacebringer is wonderfully versatile. I played one over DXP weekend going from about 18 to 25+, both solo and in team, and had a good time of it. The best time was in a duo over two Sunstorm arcs with a scrapper last night.
I read Papa's guide and I'm pretty much following his ideas on the PB tri-form build. So far (and maybe for good, as stamina hasn't been an issue), the only pool power chosen is haste/superspeed, along with a Celerity +stealth IO in sprint for a first round human Strike pair attack to lead off a battle or take out a boss or void seeker.
The ability to shift forms takes some practice to get used to, even with binds. It's like 'go human, add HP and build up, strike+strike, switch to dwarf, taunt, hit, bunch them up, switch to nova, fly up out of melee range and hit them with cone and AOE, switch to dwarf, heal up, taunt a boss, switch to human again...'. I love this versatility even as I'm learning and practicing the many different tactical combinations that the tri-form can put together. Fun stuff. A tri-build PB is easily soloable even at +2 and teams very well, filling in any gaps even in the midst of battle.
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Hmm... anything that does Psi damage and is resistant to Energy damage would probably make you reconsider that statement.
Originally Posted by perwira
A tri-build PB is easily soloable even at +2
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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Wow. You're having real trouble with comprehension. You pretty much call me a liar,after reciting EXACTLY the sort of things I dealt with on the way up AND my impressions - even though, of course, you weren't there. And now you don't understand "I WAS looking forward to it thanks to beta (hint, genius, beta = pre-live) and was disappointed afterward (note, that's AFTER beta, IE, live.)" That is not "lauding" it. Or is this too hard for you to follow?|
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
If you don't care what I think, why do you bother responding? Odd that. Though I find it amusing that before you complained about the branching mechanic, and now you laud it. Can you keep your complaining in order please?
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Let me put it very simple:
Step 1: Thought it would be interesting. Said so then.
Step 2: Found it was disappointing. Saying so now.
Does that clarify the order of events enough for you?
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| So you wanted to play a VEAT as a stalker, and were shocked when it wasn't a stalker. I don't see why I would need to point out that stupid expectations are not the fault of the AT design. |
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| Considering you've complained that neither VEAT performs as well as a stalker, then yes, it is tunnel vision. It would be silly to point out they are not stalkers since it isn't quite rocket science to realize that. Your inability to understand their play style again says nothing about the AT itself. |
Edit: Said at this point I'd wondered how you'd twist this. However, no, no I'm not. You've proven a lack of comprehension and inability to follow a chain of events OR a thread of posts. You don't even have comedy value for me at this point.
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Hmmm... true that (and I regularly read your posts to glean some good advice on how to play a PB/WS). I'll learn more as I move up the levels and face yet more challenging opponents. Up to 25+, though, it has not been much of a problem - yet! Every AT has its soft spots and you pointed out one here that I'll have to keep a gleaming eye on. |
Originally Posted by LordXenite
Hmm... anything that does Psi damage and is resistant to Energy damage would probably make you reconsider that statement.
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Perhaps you meant to say... a glinting eye?
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Originally Posted by perwira
Hmmm... true that (and I regularly read your posts to glean some good advice on how to play a PB/WS). I'll learn more as I move up the levels and face yet more challenging opponents. Up to 25+, though, it has not been much of a problem - yet! Every AT has its soft spots and you pointed out one here that I'll have to keep a gleaming eye on.
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Where to now?
Check out all my guides and fiction pieces on my blog.
The MFing Warshade | The Last Rule of Tanking | The Got Dam Mastermind
Everything Dark Armor | The Softcap
don'T attempt to read tHis mEssaGe, And believe Me, it is not a codE.
I personally believe that HEATS would be much cooler and feel less like fail if there were more alternate forms. Instead of just squid and crab, why not also have puppy and unicorn and bowling ball and William Shatner forms? (I picked bowling ball to compensate for the complexity of the puppy form animations and because many of the bowling ball animations can be re-used for the William Shatner form as well. As for the unicorn form, Charlie the Unicorn is the perfect model, so there's half the work done already.)
Of course even if those had been available when I was leveling my WS I'd probably still have gone with human form because even when using no alternate forms the feelings of fail were so minimal as to be virtually nonexistent. As for PBs, however... I got mine to 12 and rerolled him as a FF/Energy defender.
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Chaaaarrrrrliiieeeee....Hey Charrrrrrlie!|
Originally Posted by Flarstux
I personally believe that HEATS would be much cooler and feel less like fail if there were more alternate forms. Instead of just squid and crab, why not also have puppy and unicorn and bowling ball and William Shatner forms? (I picked bowling ball to compensate for the complexity of the puppy form animations and because many of the bowling ball animations can be re-used for the William Shatner form as well. As for the unicorn form, Charlie the Unicorn is the perfect model, so there's half the work done already.)
Of course even if those had been available when I was leveling my WS I'd probably still have gone with human form because even when using no alternate forms the feelings of fail were so minimal as to be virtually nonexistent. As for PBs, however... I got mine to 12 and rerolled him as a FF/Energy defender. |
Oh GOD see what you've made me do...!
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Odd, then why did you say you think the mechanic should have been introduced earlier if you found it disappointing? Then you could have complained earlier? |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Wow. You're having real trouble with comprehension. You pretty much call me a liar,after reciting EXACTLY the sort of things I dealt with on the way up AND my impressions - even though, of course, you weren't there. And now you don't understand "I WAS looking forward to it thanks to beta (hint, genius, beta = pre-live) and was disappointed afterward (note, that's AFTER beta, IE, live.)" That is not "lauding" it. Or is this too hard for you to follow?
Let me put it very simple: Step 1: Thought it would be interesting. Said so then. Step 2: Found it was disappointing. Saying so now. Does that clarify the order of events enough for you? |
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| No, I did not "want to play a VEAT as a stalker." How about not making assumptions. I wanted to play a VEAT as a VEAT. As much like the NPCs they represent as possible. They fell short in many areas. |
Here's you:
My reaction playing them has generally been - and I believe I mentioned this before - "Why didn't I just roll another stalker?" Doing that and taking leadership nets the *same thing* for all intents and purposes without a crap "storyline" that the dev team should be ashamed of. Except, of course, you get better stealth. And an early placate. And more options. And you don't have to re-figure your build at 24 (twice, if you decide to try a dual build.)
I haven't changed anything. Those are your words. It sounds like you're just trying to play a stalker by another name. VEATs can be taken in that direction, but it's only one choice, and not even an optimum one. Of course a stealthy status protected blaster is rather different, but you don't see that. You're focused on something to complain about, not on what is actually possible.
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| Listen very closely. I wondered why I *didn't* just roll another stalker, as the playstyle was running close to it. Understand? Not "I wanted to play it AS a stalker." I play VEATs as VEATs. I'm willing to TRY the others, EVEN AFTER bad experiences with two of tthem. Hence, lack of tunnel vision. |
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| Edit: Said at this point I'd wondered how you'd twist this. However, no, no I'm not. You've proven a lack of comprehension and inability to follow a chain of events OR a thread of posts. You don't even have comedy value for me at this point. |
Too many alts to list.
You two, seriously, take it to PMs or something? This is niether one thing nor the other. Bill, as far as I can see, was simply stating (perhaps in more words) that he, personally and in HIS opinion, didn't like VEATs.
I don't see any quote where he was actively saying 'VEATs suck and should be changed because I dont like them'. He said 'I haven't enjoyed them, ergo I'll leave them alone.'
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Just watch out that you don't get poked in the eye because another soft spot for Kheldians is the godhood syndrome.
Originally Posted by perwira
Every AT has its soft spots and you pointed out one here that I'll have to keep a gleaming eye on.
This strikes Warshades especially (although PB's are not exempt, Ascendantia provides ample proof of that) where the Kheldian in question would break off from the team and attempt to tackle enemies on their own. Some call this Scrapperlock, I call it the godhood syndrome because being able to blast, tank and heal oneself (coupled with a light/dark theme, of course) may bring a Kheldian to deem themselves godly. Occasionally the Kheldian would be correct, other times, they'd fall flat on their face and have to rez.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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He did flat out state that VEATs sucked. While he didn't say they needed to be changed, I don't really care. If you claim an AT sucks, and are flat out wrong, I will dispute it. Granted he is entitled to his opinion, but it doesn't seem to be based on much of anything other than misplaced expectations. |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
You two, seriously, take it to PMs or something? This is niether one thing nor the other. Bill, as far as I can see, was simply stating (perhaps in more words) that he, personally and in HIS opinion, didn't like VEATs.
I don't see any quote where he was actively saying 'VEATs suck and should be changed because I dont like them'. He said 'I haven't enjoyed them, ergo I'll leave them alone.' |
VEATs don't suck. They have lots of build options which can result in some very powerful characters. They are often tight builds if you really like to optimize, but there are a lot of directions you can take them, and they offer many options you just can't get elsewhere.
Too many alts to list.
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His opinions. Emphasis mine. His expectations and why he found them dissapointing. |
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
VEATs? I find uninspiring, boring, tedious, a waste of half the levels gained, and just plain *not fun.* Not because "zomg they're so powerful" or any nonsense like that. Most of the time when I hear how 'great" VEATs are, it's followed by one of three things: "... in groups" (so they're buffbots,) or "... with other VEATs" (again... buffbots,) or "... when I IO'd them out for capped X Y Z" (yay you?) My reaction playing them has generally been - and I believe I mentioned this before - "Why didn't I just roll another stalker?" Doing that and taking leadership nets the *same thing* for all intents and purposes without a crap "storyline" that the dev team should be ashamed of. Except, of course, you get better stealth. And an early placate. And more options. And you don't have to re-figure your build at 24 (twice, if you decide to try a dual build.) I don't find them powerful, I don't find them enjoyable, I don't find them "well made" ("tight, uncompromising build," perhaps) and I don't find them *fun.* |
He doesn't find them fun.
I rest my point.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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And here we have a good example of reading comprehension. |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
You two, seriously, take it to PMs or something? This is niether one thing nor the other. Bill, as far as I can see, was simply stating (perhaps in more words) that he, personally and in HIS opinion, didn't like VEATs.
I don't see any quote where he was actively saying 'VEATs suck and should be changed because I dont like them'. He said 'I haven't enjoyed them, ergo I'll leave them alone.' |
Thank you. (And I'm not bothering to respond to the other individual at this point.) (Though I can nitpick and say "don't like them so far," as I am still giving the Crab and, eventually, Huntsman a chance still. No, won't respec the Bane, since that wouldn't tell me how the Crab played from 25-40... have this thing about actually wanting to understand the powerset.)
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You seem to miss the fact that in this case (Bill's posts), the focus of "suck/rule" was Bill and his impressions. Bill wasn't (as far as I've seen) making a performance oriented statement about VEATs, he was analyzing his own personal impression of them, and as such, your statement that he's wrong is invalid at best.
Originally Posted by docbuzzard
He did flat out state that VEATs sucked. While he didn't say they needed to be changed, I don't really care. If you claim an AT sucks, and are flat out wrong, I will dispute it.
And by the way, you can dispute what you like, all you like. VEATs suck for me because they focus around doing things that do not interest me.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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As I said in your other topic, you can't really get a sense of Peacebringers or Warshades in just 20 and 19 levels. You need to spend copius amounts of time on them in various situations to get a feel for how excellent they really are.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Tried both PB and WS to around 20s, got a lil' PB at 19 right now. Just...I don't know what it is. The endurance costs dont seem to help but, then again, no Stamina yet. The damage taken seems extreme, but then this is on DOs.
Anyone else feel burnout come along very quickly on PBs and/or WSs? |
The damage you take on a Peacebringer or Warshade is actually less than what you would take on a Blaster, Controller, or Defender so it you consider it extreme then you must consider it ungodly when playing any other AT excluding Tanks or Scrappers.
The endurance usage is also less on Peacebringers/Warshades when compared to normal ATs and less than what people have dealt with with Night Widows. Until you have played a Night Widow you have not seen endurance issues.
"People love to talk, but hate to listen." Alice Duer Miller, American Author (1874-1942)
Leadership on a stalker is nowhere near the value that it is on a VEAT. You get a much higher value on the VEATs (manuevers that is) for a lower endurance cost.