Mezz Protection for All!

I'm inbetween you two. I doubt that they'd be ignored OR super-highly-desired.

Knockback IOs right now are a good baseline. But stuns and holds are pretty rare by comparison. An IO that gives you protection to stuns which you'll really only face, well... at high levels, against Malta basically, wouldn't be stupidly high in demand. It would be about average, I'd expect.

Some people would buy them, some people would ignore them like they do with knockback IOs. Depends on the person's level of want. But would they become mandatory/omgrare/gottahaveit? Very doubtful.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

If it's just an "occasional annoyance" why ask for mag 2 mez protection in the first place? If it's unneeded that much, why change anything? The devs certainly don't spend billable hours making changes that are *not* needed.

Rikti and some Nemesis, actually. I'm sure there is more. On my Tri-former, I'm very, very tempted to got out and get a -KB enhancement right now. It nearly got me killed several times versus a Elite Boss "Nemesis?"

And considering how many times I was stunned or held in human/nova form, I'd have been all over -Hold and -Stun enhancements.

Now that is a question. Why didn't they actually make -Hold and -Stun enhancements like Karma, Steadfast and Zephyr?

It couldn't be because of how hard it was to design them.

They already can.

http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Aegis:...tus_Resistance

http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Imperv...tus_Resistance

Oh boo

I know you know that resistance and protection are two very different things in this game.

And what happens when the melees fail at their "job" of keeping aggro? Who dies first?

Scrappers, brutes, tankers, MM's, controllers all have the tools to be completely self-sufficient. They can control a solo fight and/or have the survivability to take a few hits. Blasters, defenders, and corruptors don't have the tools to deal with mez whatsoever, with ice blast being the obvious outlier.

So how, really, is it different in melee or ranged? There are still plenty of ranged mez attacks from enemies, and they still completely take a character out of the fight. It isn't a one-shot kill, but for however long the mez lasts, that character is not contributing to a team. If solo, they can't defend themselves or fight back. (blasters get their tier 1 and tier 2 attacks- better than nothing, but not enough when you're already being overpowered.)

Squishies want mez protection for the exact same reasons its invaluable to melee characters. Solo, the "job" of both is exactly the same: defeat the enemies before they defeat you. Melee characters can do this easily. Squishies have the deck stacked against them with significantly less survivability to begin with. Lack of mez protection was always a bad idea considering the frequency and power of mez effects in this game, especially at 30+.

have you not read any of this thread? squishies have ways of dealing with mezzers before they become a problem. go back and read the thread all the way through. please.

I have read the entire thread and tend to disagree that all the previously mentioned methods squishies have to deal with mezzes is sufficient, perhaps Lakanna has as well. The simple fact is that most of the time that my blasters, corruptors or controllers die it's because of a mezzer that I missed, either because of the RNG (5% miss chance no matter what) or because I failed to see him before he hit me (those malta titans hide a LOT). So while many sets have pre-emptive ways to deal with mez they are still reliant on A) Recognizing the threat and B) successfully hitting it - god forbid there should be more mezzers than you have controls (yellow tsoo ink men anyone?) There are also many kinds of defender and corruptors who have NO way real way to deal with mezzers short of hoping they miss.

Now, I don't feel that every single one of my non-melee characters need the full level of mez protection that my scrappers and brutes get, in fact I am quite happy with most of my blasters and controllers (most, not all), however I WOULD like to be able to play, say, a rad defender or corruptor without having to worry that all those stupid crey who do half second sleeps will cause me to drop RI and die because all my defenses just went away.

I almost gave up on my archery/devices blaster in her 30's because during crey arcs the mobs kept dropping cloaking device and I had to wait 20 seconds after every fight to bring it back up. Now, the dev's fixed that by making defensive toggles no longer drop, which is one of the reasons I am happy with blasters these days. I have a fire/rad corruptor sitting at 26 because mezzing enemies are numerous enough that I kept dieing when RI dropped - and break free's won't prevent that from happening unless you use them BEFORE being mezzed. I would love to continue playing her but won't without some way to deal with sleeps, stuns and holds like I already have for KB.

I think the best suggestions I have seen is adding a point or two (or 3) of protection to various types of mez either to IO sets or even to individual IO's like the -KB ones. I don't think it should be EASY to get mez protection but I think it should be possible. Its fine and dandy that many of you are happy with the status quo but that doens't mean that chaging it is going to ruin the game - the fact that they changed the way toggles work is a good example of that. Currently I can get pretty good KB protection, I can even get a bit of ghetto hold protection (acrobatics gives 2 points of hold protection - its not much but I know my blasters with acro have succesfully resisted the first hold stuck on them) - I think the game would be all the better if there where more options, not less.

I have been doing some testing to determine just what effect even minor mezzers have on squishies. The work isnt done yet but there is one thing that has leaped out at me. Aside from break frees there is no clever tool or tactical means of dealing with them.

There are maps were all critters have mezz and or knockback and there are other spawns where the spawns can be up to 75% mezzer*. Under these circumstances If you cant disable the spawn or ride out the mezz and damage it goes very badly for you.

Earlier this evening I was fighting Luddites and I couldn't help but think what a pain the Friars were. The Friars though are a pain for everyone. They aren't a special pain that certain ATs and powersets just get to ignore.


*Any of the wolf maps has critters, 100% of which have KB and stun. Freak spawns are up to 75% mezzing freaks. I am sure there are more but I havent checked further yet

So you die from A) Not paying attention, or B) a 5% chance to miss and because you dont have a backup plan for either situation?

Lessons here are:

1 - Pay attention and actually see the mezzers! Hell you can make binds so you should never miss one.
2 - Have a plan of 'run away' or 'get round a corner' in case you do miss one or you miss with your hold.
3 - Pop a break free because that is what they are designed for: when you miss the occasional mezzer.

You want mez protection so you can play your squishies like a scrapper and not even have to look what is in the spawn ahead - that isn't going to happen. Squishes get diffent tools to defend against mez and you need to adapt to the rare situations when those tools fail.

In fact if you did your pre-emptive mezzing for range properly if you miss you should have plenty of time to avoid the return mez. I levelled my Warshade up almost entirely in Nova form and hit 50 well before getting even the first mez duration badge (And well before Dwarf = Breakfree) that is like a blaster without defiance!

Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!

Originally Posted by Aggelakis PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"

On solo settings you will be facing at most 3 enemies (And the occasional double mob with up to 6, but that is what insps are for), each with only a 50% chance to hit you at best (And if you are fighting against 3 they will all be minions anyway).

You can take one out before they even see you, likely one more before they get to you and by then you should be able to mez the third and go back to kill the original mob.

The wolves have a chance to KB and stun so it isn't 100% as far as I know, and solo you hardly ever see more than 1 juicer freak in a mob because they are LT's, and even the tanks only have a chance to stun - but why are you up close to a freak tank on a squishy?

Mez protection will make it easier for you to solo bigger groups, but the small group of ANYTHING (Apart from Cabal - who are a problem at that level on anything for me - damn storm!) have never ever been a problem for me on any of my squishies. Hell I had it worse when I levelled up my Warshade back in the day because I would often have an extra mob in the group (Void/Quantum) who could 2 shot me, and somehow I still managed it!

Princess Darkstar - Proud Member of the Handprints of Union, the #1 ranked SG in Europe!
British by act of union, English by grace of God, Northern by pure good fortune!

Originally Posted by Aggelakis PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"

If you want to be rude go somewhere else - lrn2play is NOT a valid counter arguement and just makes you look like an ***. Also, brush up on your reading skills. I specifically said I didn't expect to be as safe as a scrapper and I am willing to put in a reasonable amount of work to deal with mezzers - however as it stands now even if I do everything PERFECTLY there is still a chance that a single hit from a minion will cause my death on many corruptors and defenders. Added to the already slower soloing ability of these archetypes this bottoms out thier playability in my book

I DO know how to play the game. I have scanned through an entire spawn to look for mezzers, not found any and then discovered that there was one just around the corner that I had no chance to see. I have locked down an entire spawn of freaks and then had a rezzed one sneak up on me and sleep me (damn rez takes to long). I have debuffed a group the point where there to hit is bottomed out and been taken out by a golden BB (natural 20 rolls suck in PnP or in MMORPG's).

It really doesn't matter to me what you or anyone else in this game has managed to do with a certain character. I know a guy who managed to get a grav/ff controller to 50 in pre-ED, pre-fast levelling days - I both admire his drive and am appalled at the amount of masochistic grind he was able to stand. That doesn't mean I am going to put up with it.

Lets do this as an exercise - if I take your point to it's ultimate aim we that means we should remove all KB protection from the game as well. After all, if only the melee classes should have hold, sleep and stun protection then they should be the only ones to have KB protection as well - obviously if you need KB protection and you aren't a melee character you lack the skill to play properly.

So far all the arguments against my specific proposals, which really ARE fairly minor, appear to boil down to lrn2play and 'I am happy without these things so you should suck it up and live with it'. If you don't need mez protection then why are you argueing that I don't either. Having a little mez protection is NOT going to make me group any more - I am an anti-social ******* who solo's 99% of the time anyways. I serously doubt that adding it would even impact most folks playstyles - those who like to group are going to group anyways, those who prefer to solo are currently avoiding the AT's and powerset combo's that solo for crap. However, it WILL allow me to play some concept characters that I would like to play but haven't been able to stand playing due to a combination of factors, one of which is lack of mez protection of any kind. Removing that 1 factor will reduce the frustration level in certain builds to the point I can stand playing them.

I am not suggesting much and there are ALREADY similar abilities in the game (-KB io's and the small amount of hold protection in acrobatics), so there is even precedence for squishies getting some protection to controls - I am just suggesting they expand that to cover all all mez types in a very minor way, so that one minion you miss or that one attack that rolls a natural 20 doesn't drop all your toggles and kill you.

No you don't because you also said:
And it is a perfectly valid argument. I will be going on my 8th 50 for corr/def's (No AE leveling, the master badges pre-I16, TFC for 3 def so far, etc.). Would you like to list these "many" corruptors and defenders that have no hope? It doesn't exist because if you knew how to play the powers for def and corr, you would see that they have plenty of tools to handle mezzers. You are just choosing not to take or use them. And please, a mezz from a single MINION causes you die? Really, a MINION??? We must be playing different games.

This whole idea of mezz protection is simply not needed. My blaster can snipe to take out a mezzer from range. My controller holds them. My defenders and corruptors have a variety of tools to stop mezzers. My WS (which doesn't use dwarf form) deals with mezzers when soloing. My 2 MM's just sends in the pets. My non-perma dom is just fine outside domination.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison I think the problem stems from people wanting to be able to solo x6-x8 missions, but the increased number of mobs means having more mezzing enemies than are possible to deal with. Even then, the right squishy builds can floor enemy accuracy in groups or even control the large groups well enough.

I agree, but I'd also add that people want to be able to solo with the highest difficulty settings with classes that were never designed to meet such tough opposition in passive ways!

I am just going by the numbers, so let me correct the matters of fact first here. In the case of the freaks, Juicer freaks sleep you, stunner freaks have a ranged stun and the various smasher freaks have either an aoe or a st stun. In the case of the wolves what you get are mass attacks where attacking any one wolf at range results in the entire spawn picking up boulders and throwing them at you. Spawn sizes of 3 or 4/spawn were the observed sizes for difficulty set to 1/+0.

If you have a control power at your disposal you can indeed sort of one shot a mezzer or mezzers if you do not you are out of luck on this. If you have control powers but no AOE hold or stun available you are out of luck on the mobs with multiple mezzers. This is at least in regard to get clever and use the tools you have line of argument.

You bring up the issue of the EATs and their special Kryptonite. There are obvious reasons they should have their own particular Kryptonite in the game. Is there any particular reason that defenders, controllers, corrupters etc should have their own particular kryptonite ? Defiance 2.0 is already a nod to the fact that the way Mezzes were working incorrectly.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catwhoorg I jotted down what I can recall for ways of mitigation of enemy mezz from all the defender primaries, secondaries and APPs.

...but, most (if not all) of your list is not... passive!

I am beginning to think melee toons shouldn't be able to solo those mobs. IO's have made them too powerful and they need to be taken down a few notches. They are the reason we hear "the game is too easy". when in reality it is easy for certain toons in certain circumstances.

I'd be down for a melee/IO nerf, right after they change the fact that team-oriented ATs with non-passive status protection are capable of soloing larger spawns more quickly than any melee AT, and capable of soloing AVs and GMs much more easily.

Something's getting lost in the equation here if people are saying melee ATs are too good because a select few with awesome builds can do things like face x8 spawns, when squishy ATs, who some people in this thread say are too difficult to play solo, can do that and much more.

Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dispari Something's getting lost in the equation here if people are saying melee ATs are too good because a select few with awesome builds can do things like face x8 spawns, when squishy ATs, who some people in this thread say are too difficult to play solo, can do that and much more.

Heaven's forbid that we have AT's that are obviously really good at soloing, and then other AT's that truly outshine everything else when they simply band together... sheesh!

Truer words have not been spoken. One of the reasons I don't play melee characters is because of the lack of raw power. I have a kin/nrg defender that can solo huge mobs very quickly, mezz or no. I have an ill/rad that, with a little more invested, could take down AVs and GMs. I have a bots/traps mastermind that just won't die, no matter what it's up against.

None of these have passive mez protection. None of them have problems.

It's already been pretty blatant that the loudest supporters have no inkling of how the game actually plays out beyond "Scrappers can solo AVs? They must be more powerful than everybody!" without considering "750 million influence and 2,800 posts dedicated to calculating optimal DPS chains and the development of 'Arcanatime'."
But it's easier to yell and scream in absolutes and ignore the other factors.

You know what, on second thought, I welcome IOs granting mez protection. On a Taunt set's 5th bonus. +0.5 magnitude for a possible total of +1.0 on every character without a natural source. And make it a PvP set.

* "you are an idiot"

Hot damn, some good, anonymous arguments on both sides here!