Mezz Protection for All!
By
AlienOne,
Posted on: 2009-09-17 24:18 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
Quote:
Yes I did read your OP and I disagree with it. Why add something the game doesn't need? Further, why dumb down the game even further...it's already pretty easy.
|
Originally Posted by Futurias
Did you guys actually look at the number or did your eyes just glaze over at the title?
+2 Mag protection won't break the game. Far from it. It would just get rid of the minion and lieutenants one-mezzing you. |
I just wish Malta minions didnt chain-throw stun grenades that have a 20 second duration, and that the malta robots didnt have rockets that hold you for 20 seconds. Or whatever it is. Its lame. Otherwise, I can live with no status protection on my squishies (I just never do Malta arcs, ever, even tho I can, I just dont care for the tedium).
Lewis
Random AT Generation!
"I remember... the Alamo." -- Pee-wee Herman
"Oh don't worry. I always leave things to the last moment." -- The Doctor
"Telescopes are time machines." -- Carl Sagan
Quote:
See, this is why I think everyone show now have a little bit of Mezz Protection. So that you don't have annoying 'lose control of you PC and die' fights against many high level mobs.
|
Originally Posted by UnicyclePeon
I just wish Malta minions didnt chain-throw stun grenades that have a 20 second duration, and that the malta robots didnt have rockets that hold you for 20 seconds. Or whatever it is. Its lame. Otherwise, I can live with no status protection on my squishies (I just never do Malta arcs, ever, even tho I can, I just dont care for the tedium).
Lewis |
Still here, even after all this time!
I wouldn't put mex protection into IO's. It would just widen the performance gap between IO'd out builds and others. I would (and have, before) suggest creating a new power pool that packs mez protections in, at the obvious cost of other powers in your build. I think the first 2 should be auto, and mag 1 protection to all mezzes: enough to shake off a single mez. The tier 3 and tier 4 could be toggles, and add mag 2 protection to mezzes, with all types represented between the toggles. If you take all 4 powers in the pool, and run the extra 2 toggles, you wind up with +4 protection against all mez. The cost in powers is high, and I bet it would become the second-most picked pool after fitness.
Mezzes in this game are ridiculous. They prevent you from doing anything at all, and nobody really likes being a statue. Break Frees are not a solution any more than carrying around a tray of blues was a solution when melee types had serious END problems just running their armors (remember when DA was unplayable without shuffling toggles?)
119088 - Outcasts Overcharged. Heroic.
Quote:
This sums up my thoughts on it quite nicely actually. |
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
This is a silly idea. Seriously, it's not like the game is not easy enough as it is. Seems like some players won't be satisfied until every single obstacle that might require even the tiniest bit of tactics or thinking is removed from the game, leaving them having to do nothing more than randomly mash buttons on their keyboard for max expeez.
|
You're basically asking for mezzes to be removed from the game.
No, really, you are. If everyone is protected from them at all times, what is the point of them even existing? It's called challenge, you should try it some time, much more satisfying than mashing buttons until everything is dead.
I've said it before and I'll say it again.
Every AT that is vulnerable to mez has some way of preventing the enemy from ever USING the mez.
ATs that do not have the ability to prevent their use, get protection from them.
Blasters have limited ability to prevent mez, so they have limited immunity to it.
Scrappers get very few options for mezzing opponents, and the most reliable methods are usually found in powers no one wants to take, so they get mez protection to make them playable at all. And with one exception (Petrifying Gaze) all scrapper mezzes are melee range. If you agro a spawn, you will be held/slept/stunned before you even get close enough to use that power. They are also ALL single target powers, meaning you can't do anything about multiple mezzers at once. Therefore, since scrappers have such limited ability to prevent mez, they are protected from it.
You can't really argue that scrappers, tanks, and brutes would be playable without mez protection. Try it sometime, jump into a spawn of Malta with your anti-mez toggle (or click) turned off, and see how long you live.
Controllers can lock down a mezzing foe before they are even targeted by them. Defenders, in almost every case, can do SOMETHING to make that mez less likely to hit.
Corruptors, same as defenders.
Masterminds can go entire missions without ever being targeted by an enemy if they know what they're doing at all.
Dominators can pre-emptively lock down too, AND they can kill it to boot.
The only set combination I can think of that can't do anything about a mez is Empathy/Energy, and you'd have to be insane to try and solo that anyway.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
Maybe if you mean ridiculously trivial and easy to deal with. I really cannot understand the problem some people seem to have with these. Why is it I can play the game using any of my blasters, controllers, doms, or masterminds and get by just fine fighting opponents that use status effects? I never buy breakfrees, and usually even forget I have them in the tray, yet I can still manage. It's not that hard folks...
|
Originally Posted by Lakanna
Mezzes in this game are ridiculous.
|
Query: Intended as fix for PvP?
If so: Fail
Damn: Not given: Hard
Switching to: Human speech patern.
Seriously, there's no need for this. Yes, I find mez as damn annoying as the next guy/gal. But it's just how things go. Are people really that inept at dealing with anything other than soloable claws/regen or w/e enemies now?
There are, yes, a few groups that have stuns and stuff that verge on the bloody horrible. My pet hate is the PPD at the SWAT levels. Couple the Equalizers So-not-an-AoE-location glue grenades of fragging doom, and the Ghosts blind grenades, and they swiftyl become a pain in the rear.
How to fix that? Well, they tend to be on bank missions only, so I often bring a few cronies along to spread the hurt and hate. I also make a point of ripping the spine out of/mezzing the hell out of/gunning them down first. Target prioritisation.
And yes, Malta and the multi-stun-stacking Tsoo. Horrible things. But all of them work as they should. Malta are a high level group, they are MEANT to be hard. Same as Nemesis, with their god-awful officer buffs, exploding robots and AoE sniper strength rifles.
Tbh, my one and only gripe is with the KB hole in Tanker/Brute and VEAT sets, but thats' a whole rant in itself and at least that is fixable, annoying though it is.
Restoring: Normal Speech functions.
Final Opinion: Changes not needed
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
 |
Quote:
The thing is, everyone finds different enemies to be different levels of challenge, based on either their AT, powersets, or playstyles. You consider Malta to be too difficult/annoying, but maybe you love fighting, I don't know, Carnival? And there's someone out there who HATES Carnival, thinks they are too hard/annoying with the end drain and Mask of Vitiation and phase-shifting Illusionists, but has no problem with Malta.|
Originally Posted by UnicyclePeon
I just wish Malta minions didnt chain-throw stun grenades that have a 20 second duration, and that the malta robots didnt have rockets that hold you for 20 seconds. Or whatever it is. Its lame. Otherwise, I can live with no status protection on my squishies (I just never do Malta arcs, ever, even tho I can, I just dont care for the tedium).
|
My AR/Dev blaster doesn't mind Malta. But then she is built for maximum controls (Web Grenade, Beanbag, Taser, Freeze Ray, Sleep Grenade). Meanwhile she SUCKS at Cimerorans who don't even have any controls.
[SIZE=1][COLOR=Yellow][U]Virtue Heroes (Serenity's Children):[/U] [B]@Eek a Mouse, The Devil's Mark, Outlaw Sniper, Gas-Soaked Rag Man, Amazon Prime, Friday's Child, Hot Blooded,[/B][B]Flower of the Moon[/B], [B]Rouge Demon Hunter[/B], Stimulated Emission, Animatronic Wench, [B]Lennie Small[/B]
[U]Virtue Villains (Serenity's Orphans):[/U][/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=1][COLOR=Yellow] [/COLOR][/SIZE] [SIZE=1][COLOR=Yellow] [B]Eek a Rat[/B], [B]Bomb Blondeshell[/B], Babe Brute, Jeanne Dark, Fallen Angle[/COLOR][/SIZE]
No, reducing being mezzed is not the same as removing mezz from the game.
To be quite truthful, the level of mezz protection in the VEATs is about where I'd put the lower tiers. You can still get mezzed, but you are in no danger from perma-mezzing or .05 second Mag 1 detoggle mezzing that just designed to drop your 'offensive' toggles (that might be your biggest defense of debuffers.)
I do find it funny that people are shouting 'learn to play' or 'play against specific enemies.'
How anti-thematic is is for your 'hero' of 'super-villain' to play to specific weaknesses always?
"Sorry guys, they might have a bit of Kryptonite. I'll just go beat up the Muggers. They never have Kryptonite. So what if I'm not being as heroic as you that doesn't have my weakness!?"
Still here, even after all this time!
*Hugs FFG*
Quote:
In most circumstances, you will only be faced with a low magnitude of mez. Thus, you are practically removing mez from the game. When solo, you often will only encounter one mob capable of mez. The suggested level of mez removes this possibility.|
Originally Posted by Futurias
No, reducing being mezzed is not the same as removing mezz from the game.
|
On a team, if you are attracting that much aggro, you deserve the mez. This is where the learning to play argument comes in. If you are getting mezzed on a team as a squishy, somebody isn't doing their job.
Quote:
| To be quite truthful, the level of mezz protection in the VEATs is about where I'd put the lower tiers. You can still get mezzed, but you are in no danger from perma-mezzing or .05 second Mag 1 detoggle mezzing that just designed to drop your 'offensive' toggles (that might be your biggest defense of debuffers.) |
1)Crab Spiders armor is a magnitude 4 protection. Add to that fortification, and you have better mez protection than a brute (8.3 for a total of 12.3)
2)Bane Spiders only have the magnitude 4 armor, but this also is plenty against most things in the game.
3) Widows and Fortunatas have a mag 10 protection
Quote:
| I do find it funny that people are shouting 'learn to play' or 'play against specific enemies.' |
Quote:
|
How anti-thematic is is for your 'hero' of 'super-villain' to play to specific weaknesses always? "Sorry guys, they might have a bit of Kryptonite. I'll just go beat up the Muggers. They never have Kryptonite. So what if I'm not being as heroic as you that doesn't have my weakness!?" |
Quote:
In fact, most of the time when faced with an enemy that had Kryptonite, Superman would either use some trick to get the Kryptonite away from the bad guy, or he'd leave and grab a lead suit, then come back and kick the snot out of the bad guy, all while smirking as the Kryptonite does nothing.
|
Originally Posted by Tonality
I never saw Superman not try to fight back just because someone had kryptonite. He dealt with his weakness. So should you.
|
"You don't lose levels. You don't have equipment to wear out, repair, or lose, or that anyone can steal from you. About the only thing lighter than debt they could do is have an NPC walk by, point and laugh before you can go to the hospital or base." -Memphis_Bill
We will honor the past, and fight to the last, it will be a good way to die...
Quote:
Writer's fiat. Superman doesn't get sent to the hospital several times in a single issue because he's chain-mezzed. Mainly because it's not a very heroic way to portray him, is it?|
Originally Posted by DarkGob
In fact, most of the time when faced with an enemy that had Kryptonite, Superman would either use some trick to get the Kryptonite away from the bad guy, or he'd leave and grab a lead suit, then come back and kick the snot out of the bad guy, all while smirking as the Kryptonite does nothing.
|
Tsoo, Carnies, and Malta are probably the worst because they not only mezz, but can stack multiple types of mezzes against a single target. Fighting a Dark Ring mistress solo on a squishie is masochism. Fighting one that happens to have an Illusionist in her group? Bring on the break frees, because if you don't, you're gonna get hospitalized. Repeatedly. Are we having FUN yet?
119088 - Outcasts Overcharged. Heroic.
The only time I complain about Mez is when all my enemies are dead yet I'm still Immobilized for another 20 seconds.
I want to kill more, why don't you understand??
Quote:
Good point. Maybe the devs should concentrate on individual critter mezzes, fixing the ones that are out of whack on a case by case basis. Then step back and see if system-wide changes are still necessary.|
Originally Posted by UnicyclePeon
I just wish Malta minions didnt chain-throw stun grenades that have a 20 second duration...
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by DSorrow
Not needed. If you're afraid of a mezzing boss on a squishy... pop a couple of lucks... or pop a break free... it is very rare not to be able to have either lucks or BFs.
|
Quote:
Yet, even my Blaster's don't very many problems with Yellow Ink-men. In fact, I have more problems from the Blue and Red Ink-men than I do Yellow. Stupid Siphon Speed and Energy Melee. |
Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
Which is great when only bosses are mezzing you. But then the minions start mezzing too, at the ripe old level of, oh, about twenty.
|
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
You're absolutely right!
Not being able to waltz through the game solo on a Defender, clearing maps without even thinking about it, is obviously hurting the game!!
Stop complaining about ATs being vulnerable to things they were designed to be vulnerable to.
If a Fire/Kin controller had reliable mez protection available all the time, they would be nearly unstoppable. Great for people to mash buttons and get the phat lewt ASAP.
Not so great for game balance.
Why are Fire/Kins popular for farming? Because they kill large groups faster than anything else. The only thing that even slows them down is the occasional mez that sneaks through. If they could ignore mezzes, they would be stupidly overpowered, and no one will admit it for fear of one set or the other getting nerfed.
Yes, your solo Empathy defender will suffer for that. But, if you're soloing, why are you playing an Empathy defender?
The new difficulty settings are producing more mezzing opponents, that makes it harder.
Who's idea was it to have a feature designed to make things harder....actually make things harder?!? That's not fair! I want more mobs that I can mow through for drops and money, not mobs that might actually be a threat to me!!
Okay, I'm going to bed now, I just re-read this and my frustration with people is making me irritable.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
We can slot KB protection, don't see why we can't slot mez protection too. (Especially since mezzes can be worse than KB) At make the set bonuses something worth looking at. A 50% reduction in hold time would be a nice thing to slot for.
Quote:
You can already do that, it's called mez resistance.|
Originally Posted by JeetKuneDo
We can slot KB protection, don't see why we can't slot mez protection too. (Especially since mezzes can be worse than KB) At make the set bonuses something worth looking at. A 50% reduction in hold time would be a nice thing to slot for.
|
Also, I have more problems with Nemmies and Malta on my scrappers. Because they can't get in and prevent nasty things from firing off. And Nemmie Vengeance vs. Soft-cap is not a fair fight.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
|
Against my better judgment, I'm going to throw my two cents in here.
The mezzes in the game, as implemented, hurt various powersets to widely varying degrees in the PVE game. I have a hard time understanding how it is balanced.
Anything which can mez enough to be a threat to a Tanker or a Scrapper can really play havoc with most other Archetypes. The trouble is, some enemies are apparently balanced that way.
I would personally advocate that the sheer volume of mezzing in the game is reduced somewhat, and Tanker and Scrapper protection is reduced to compensate. That would mean all Archetypes face an occasional risk from mezzes, but the disparity would not loom so large between, say, a Force Field fire-and-forget buffer and a Radiation toggles-shut-down debuffer, or between a Stone Tanker and a mere Blaster.
Quote:
Wut? |
Originally Posted by Hertz
The mezzes in the game, as implemented, hurt various powersets to widely varying degrees in the PVE game. I have a hard time understanding how it is balanced.
|
You're playing a squishy. You get a lot of perks that melee AT's don't get. For example, buffs, debuffs, an arsenal of either ranged control or ranged attacks. I tell you what. Give my brutes fulcrum shift and we'll talk balance.
Quote:
| Anything which can mez enough to be a threat to a Tanker or a Scrapper can really play havoc with most other Archetypes. The trouble is, some enemies are apparently balanced that way. |
Quote:
| I would personally advocate that the sheer volume of mezzing in the game is reduced somewhat, and Tanker and Scrapper protection is reduced to compensate. That would mean all Archetypes face an occasional risk from mezzes, but the disparity would not loom so large between, say, a Force Field fire-and-forget buffer and a Radiation toggles-shut-down debuffer, or between a Stone Tanker and a mere Blaster. |
My brutes would like to have a word with you. Outside in the alley.
Quote:
What am I saying? Do the math:|
Originally Posted by Tonality
You're playing a squishy. You get a lot of perks that melee AT's don't get. For example, buffs, debuffs, an arsenal of either ranged control or ranged attacks.
|
You're facing 8 enemies. Each has a 50% chance to hit, and a 25% chance to stun.
That means on any given round, anybody facing those enemies will be hit with a stun. Statistically speaking, a squishie will be stunned more or less constantly; a Tanker or Scrapper, not at all.
When a squishie is stunned, his output = 0, except in the case of Defiance. No buffs, no holds go out, no damage, nothing. It doesn't matter how many bells and whistles a squishie has, or how low you set Tanker and Scrapper damage, if the frequency of stuns is this high. I'm not speaking of magnitude, here, I'm speaking of probability. As the enemy count scales up, the probability magnifies enormously. It's like the odds of rolling a 1 on a six-sided die ... but you're rolling ten of 'em at a time.
To put it another way: if Corruptors do 1000 damage and Brutes do 800, but Corruptors are mezzed 25% of the time, who does more for the team?
I advocate changing the volume of enemies with mezzes. Make the mezzes stronger this won't affect the squishies one way or another, a stun is a stun but make them less frequent. This will mean Brutes, Tankers, Scrappers, and Stalkers do occasionally have to worry about mezzes, just like everybody else, but it won't overwhelm the poor squishies who get chain-mezzed by enemies like Malta.
Quote:
What you're really asking for here is the Cathedral of Pain Trial, Items of Power, and base raids to come back - the Monument of Iron IoP grants mag 3 status protection to everyone in the supergroup so long as they're in SG mode.
|
Originally Posted by Futurias
Yeah, I know. This comes up all the time. Just give those poor squishy Blasters, Defenders, (most) Controllers, Kheldians, Corruptors and Master Minds some slightly better, consistant protection.
Now there used to be some really valid points not to. After all, PvP with Mezz Protection was very broken. But there is no more PvP Mezz Protection, just Mezz Resistance. So what is the compelling reason to not allow it anymore? So that heroes and villains can be detoggled by minions? (No, they changed that so only offensive toggles really drop.) So that bosses are a grave threat? I don't know about you guys, but my corruptor gets waxed pretty dang fast by bosses even when I can move. How is suppressing all my protections and not being able to flee more harsh than that? Now, just to be fair, I'm not advocating that everyone gets tanker-level protection. In fact, I'd just add two 'lower-tier' protection levels, built into the different ATs Primary or Secondary. Low Tier: Defenders, Corruptors, Masterminds. +2 or +3 mezz protection at best. Something to make them feel that they are better than generic minions and lts. (This is where Soldiers of Arachnos generally are, IIRC. A little bit gets rid of a lot of frustration, IMO.) Low-Mid Tier: Blasters and Kheldians. +4 or +5. For the most part, these ATs are actually a bit heavy melee so need just a bit more to survive in melee. Mid Tier: Scrappers, Brutes and Stalkers. Lives in melee, but is not the primary aggro-magnet, so needs more than those below them. High Tier: Tankers, of course. (Dwarf Form Khelds should be about here, but probably would be in this new system.) Let fun triumph over inertia! (Yes, I'm pretty sure I'll get yelled at that there is no problem, please shut up, yadda yadda yadda. Every time I personally have a problem playing one of these 'no-mezz' characters, I'll be right back here visiting.) |
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Quote:
Mezz resistance, as implemented in Set IOs is effectively almost useless. Because of the way Resistance works in this case (1/1+X=Mezz duration) having 100% mezz resistance is only worth 50% reduction. 200% mezz resistance only drops mezz durations to 33%.|
Originally Posted by ArcticFahx
You can already do that, it's called mez resistance.
Also, I have more problems with Nemmies and Malta on my scrappers. Because they can't get in and prevent nasty things from firing off. And Nemmie Vengeance vs. Soft-cap is not a fair fight. |
At 3% to 5% mezz resistance from IOs... and you aren't doing anything that really makes a freaking difference.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Hertz
Against my better judgment, I'm going to throw my two cents in here.
The mezzes in the game, as implemented, hurt various powersets to widely varying degrees in the PVE game. I have a hard time understanding how it is balanced. |
For a scrapper, a +2 or +3 boss is usually just 'doing normal' while against a blaster, that is probably death... all because he can't actually attack with most of his powers.
That's why I hate toggle suppression as currently implemented. You take your character who can't respond and suppress all of his good resistances and defenses. Even on a tank, that hurts.
For a squishy that has lower hitpoints and suddenly can't A) attack B) run away and C) is now taking an extreme extra amount of damage it's not a good design decision.
Toggle suppression should have just been changed so that you were held but your non-offensive toggles stayed up and your offensive toggles were suppressed.
Quote:
|
Anything which can mez enough to be a threat to a Tanker or a Scrapper can really play havoc with most other Archetypes. The trouble is, some enemies are apparently balanced that way. I would personally advocate that the sheer volume of mezzing in the game is reduced somewhat, and Tanker and Scrapper protection is reduced to compensate. That would mean all Archetypes face an occasional risk from mezzes, but the disparity would not loom so large between, say, a Force Field fire-and-forget buffer and a Radiation toggles-shut-down debuffer, or between a Stone Tanker and a mere Blaster. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Hertz
What am I saying? Do the math:
You're facing 8 enemies. Each has a 50% chance to hit, and a 25% chance to stun. That means on any given round, anybody facing those enemies will be hit with a stun. Statistically speaking, a squishie will be stunned more or less constantly; a Tanker or Scrapper, not at all. When a squishie is stunned, his output = 0, except in the case of Defiance. No buffs, no holds go out, no damage, nothing. It doesn't matter how many bells and whistles a squishie has, or how low you set Tanker and Scrapper damage, if the frequency of stuns is this high. I'm not speaking of magnitude, here, I'm speaking of probability. As the enemy count scales up, the probability magnifies enormously. It's like the odds of rolling a 1 on a six-sided die ... but you're rolling ten of 'em at a time. To put it another way: if Corruptors do 1000 damage and Brutes do 800, but Corruptors are mezzed 25% of the time, who does more for the team? |
Talk about underperforming.
Quote:
| I advocate changing the volume of enemies with mezzes. Make the mezzes stronger this won't affect the squishies one way or another, a stun is a stun but make them less frequent. This will mean Brutes, Tankers, Scrappers, and Stalkers do occasionally have to worry about mezzes, just like everybody else, but it won't overwhelm the poor squishies who get chain-mezzed by enemies like Malta. |
For the squishies, Mag basically doesn't make a bit of difference. But duration is a freaking killer. Malta have 20 second stuns on their bosses at like Mag 3.
For a non-squishy, they are totally a non-threat. Barely even gets into their protection. For your squishy, that's 20 seconds that you are likely to die in. And 20 seconds you are not contributing to your team.
Still here, even after all this time!
Not needed.
If you're afraid of a mezzing boss on a squishy I have an idea: pop a couple of lucks and hope he doesn't hit or pop a break free to make sure if he hits nothing happens. With combinable inspirations it is very rare not to be able to have either lucks or BFs.
- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom
My Katana/Inv Guide
Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein