Mezz Protection for All!


AlienOne

 

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Originally Posted by Twisted Toon View Post
I translated it as "You're intentionally playing in a more challenging manner." rather than "You're doing it wrong."

There is no right or wrong (other than exploits) way to play this game. There is just easier or more challenging. Sometimes, character concepts dictate a more challenging method of play. I have several like that.
Actually, he was saying that you must play those characters in one style. A particularly unheroic style, actually because at one point the developers decided that only melee archetypes 'should' get mezz protection of any sort.

Again, I'll reiterate---

I am not advocating removing mezz from the game. I am advocating lessening its affect on on players so that it does not affect them as greatly.

If I wanted to say 'please remove mezzing from the game' I would say that.

What I'm really saying is that 'squishies' should only be getting mezzed less. Perhaps only one-quarter of the time. Definitely less than one-third.

The simplest way to do that is to give them minor mezz protection now that PvP balance is no longer an issue.

Or perhaps +300% mezz resistance (that would reduce all mezzing down to 1/4 of the time by default.)

Dying because I didn't go out and buy a whole tray of breakfrees to do my mission on herioc is (and you can quote me on this) "Not fun".


Still here, even after all this time!


 

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Originally Posted by Futurias View Post
And yet people don't realize that some concepts do not stay good. When CoH came out, the idea of instanced missions was new. A lot of the content was supposed to be outdoors... yet players like playing missions.
Actually, players like XP. At launch, street sweeping was exponentially more popular than missions because it was way, way more rewarding. One of my early scrappers cut his teeth on an eight-man team cleaning up Boomtown. It took a reduction in debt while indoors and massive mission complete bonuses to get players to see missions as worth the time.

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Just because it was 'originally designed' does not excuse re-looking at things and removing annoyances.
There's a difference between removing annoyances and redesigning the game. One of the main principles behind the game is that mez exists, and it affects certain archetypes more than others. It affects gameplay at a fundamental level; the developers considered it so important that they gave buffing sets the potential to mitigate it for their teammates. You're as likely to see the threat of mez removed as you are to see the need to manage endurance removed. It's just part of the game.


We'll always have Paragon.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Futurias View Post
Dying because I didn't go out and buy a whole tray of breakfrees to do my mission on herioc is (and you can quote me on this) "Not fun".
Yay! More over-the-top exaggeration! Please, for entertainment, explain how you cannot complete a solo heroic mission without using "a whole tray of breakfrees".


 

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Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen View Post
Yay! More over-the-top exaggeration! Please, for entertainment, explain how you cannot complete a solo heroic mission without using "a whole tray of breakfrees".
"Liar Liar Pants on Fire" isn't going to help foster reasoned debate.


 

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Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent View Post
"Liar Liar Pants on Fire" isn't going to help foster reasoned debate.
Do you need a whole tray of breakfrees to solo a heroic mission? No one I know does. I call 'em like I see 'em. Sorry if that bothers you...


 

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Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen View Post
Yay! More over-the-top exaggeration! Please, for entertainment, explain how you cannot complete a solo heroic mission without using "a whole tray of breakfrees".
solo, +0x1? Go deal with Carnies for a while. Especially when the end boss in a "defeat all" is a DRM, with an Illusionist in her group. Or try some Malta, where nearly every spawn has at least one critter that can throw a mez. Rikti have a ton of stuns that can make life miserable, and same problem as with carnies: their bosses, even downgraded to Lt's, often spawn with a second mezzer in the group.

None of these will require a "full tray of breakfrees" but none can be handled without at least half a dozen. Melee types don't need to use inspirations as a crutch simply to solo, nor to be able to do their job in a team setting. They actually get to use inspirations to increase effectiveness, not to attain basic effectiveness.


119088 - Outcasts Overcharged. Heroic.

 

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Originally Posted by MrQuizzles View Post
You're saying that he's doing it wrong.
I'm saying he's doing it wrong. If he is having that much trouble, then he should adjust his tactics.


 

Posted

I don't really think that mez protection should be distributed out to more ATs. I would, however, like it if Defenders and Corruptors got some kind of universal proactive or reactive mez solution across the AT. Debuffs can be good solutions, but a number of the more potent ones are toggle-based, and will shut off when that first mez lands, leaving you undefended.

Mez solutions that aren't mez protection include the free use of your tier 1 and 2 Primaries and tier 1 Secondary on a Blaster under new Defiance, Mastermind pets that continue to fight and draw aggro from the Mastermind when the Mastermind is mezzed, or even the simple mez them first option that all Controllers and Dominators have available among their Primary set powers.

Some Defenders and Corruptors have mezzes in their attack sets, but not all do. Likewise, some Defenders and Corruptors have have genuine mez protection or a click debuff that matters in their buff/debuff sets, but not all do. I'm not sure what form an AT-wide mez solution should take for either, but it would be a nice thing to have, since the other ATs have a solution to the problem mezzer among the foes that they are facing. It's far from being a deal-breaker, since I really like playing Defenders, even as they are, but it just doesn't feel right to me that those 2 ATs don't have some kind of built-in solution to mez that is available to all combos within the AT.

Just my take on this topic.


"I wish my life was a non-stop Hollywood movie show,
A fantasy world of celluloid villains and heroes."

 

Posted

Mez Protection is already over-proliferated as it is. Eight ATs (Scrappers, Tankers, both Kheldans, Arachnos Soldiers, Arachnos Widows, Brutes, and Stalkers) have access to all-the-time Mez Protection regardless of powerset, with everyone but the Kheldons and Soldiers requiring only endurance and possibly some very minor recharge slotting to keep it running (Kheldans need either specific teammates or specific forms. Soldiers don't even require endurance- it's all built-in) Another AT, Dominators, has access to Mez protection at least every so often, and can be perma'd.

Of the remaining ATs, all of them but Blasters have at least one powerset that offers mez protection to themselves, and multiple powersets available to Controllers, Corruptors, Masterminds, and Defenders can grant at least limited mez protection to a teammate, as can a pool power (Stimulant) that's a prerec anyways for one of the most popular pool powers in the game anyways. The last AT, Blasters, have an inherent that lets them keep fighting in limited capacity while Mez'd, so they're not at the same mercy everyone else is while held or stunned.

As it is, enemy mez is a very minor threat in the game anymore unless your team is entirely squish-based, facing an enemy faction where mez stacking is an issue (read: Tsoo or Malta) or facing an EB/AV that has a mez that cheats the system and just cuts through mez protection like butter (Ghost Widow.) Throwing mez protection to the few guys who still lack it built-in would make status induction so pointless that enemy mobs may as well have them removed and their other powers rebalanced to take advantage of it. And heck, one FF or Sonic player and mez is mostly a non-factor regardless of team makeup anyways, as can any powerset with a Clear Mind clone and a player dedicated to either keeping it up or really good at reacting to mez icons on the player bar.

As for soloing, I can't think of anything except boss-level enemies who are a serious issue with mezing. Damage classes can BU/Aim/whatever to murder a particularly nasty status inducer in an alpha of glory, and control classes can just mez them first. That leaves Defenders, which is the one time where I admit mez becomes an issue, especially for buff-oriented ones like Empathy, but most buff sets aren't particularly solo-friendly to begin with.


Meeh, whatcha gonna do?

 

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I've been advocating lowering it to a much less annoying amount.

Short term click buffs suck. I get yelled at constantly that I'm not speed boosting people. I'd trade recharge enhancements on those powers for duration increasers in a heart-beat just so I'd be clicking less often. But the developers only feel that mezzing should get that bonus.

Though I wonder how hard a 'buff duration increase' enhancement would be to code?

I play (almost exclusively these days) scrappers and brutes because they don't get mezzed often.

Why play a game (or even have part of a game) that is just annoying?
Realisation: Easy Mode request
Current Day Games: Stupidly easy
CoX comparison: Fairly well balanced
Balance: Much appreciated:
Easy Mode: Equals: High levels of fail

Mezzes: WAI
Archtypes: WAI

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I get yelled at constantly that I'm not speed boosting people.
Team less: With Granite Tanks/Brutes
Seriousness: Two occurances
Occurance One: They are whining
Fix: Seek help from /ignore button
Occurance Two: You fail at playing a Defender/Buffer
Fix: Engaging Humour output: L34rN 2 p14y

Seriousness: Re-enabled
Topic: Flawed


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Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Futurias View Post
Actually, he was saying that you must play those characters in one style. A particularly unheroic style, actually because at one point the developers decided that only melee archetypes 'should' get mezz protection of any sort.
Yeah, see, no. I'm saying: your game experience is largely a result of your choice on how to play. If I were playing a tanker but didn't buy the mez-protection power(s) in my armor set, I could make due with having break frees, teaming, slotting my powers for range or added mez, or even getting clever and doing a TP Foe-style strategy (slow, but works), or buying Combat Jumping / Health / Acrobatics / all the defense and mez resistance I can afford, or some combination thereof. That doesn't make anyone justified in telling me "you're playing it wrong," but I wouldn't be surprised to hear someone ask, "so... why not buy your mez-protection powers?"

It's pretty clear your frustration is in a pretty specific set of circumstances (soloing, playing a susceptible-to-mez AT, fighting mez-heavy groups generally found in the end-game, not wanting to use Break Frees liberally). I tend to be proactive in problem-solving, treating those circumstances as a puzzle to be solved, not an insurmountable hurdle that demand the circumstances need to be changed, thus my recommendation to you to do the same (play the strengths, mitigate the weaknesses with the tools you have).

I'm sorry that you feel like I'm telling you that you don't know how to play the game. Not my intention at all, but obviously I'm not able to prevent you from hearing that, despite contradicting that impression at several points. Maybe, rather than focusing on my one statement, you can solicit the experiences of several other solo Defender players and how they successfully tackle the same problems, and take your advice there. Personally, I think it'd be awesome to turn the problem into a success story, i.e. "here's how I built my Defender to solo Malta / CoS."


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
Realisation: Easy Mode request
Easy mode that Tankers, Scrappers, Brutes and Stalkers already have. You can't forget that part.


 

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Originally Posted by MrQuizzles View Post
Easy mode that Tankers, Scrappers, Brutes and Stalkers already have. You can't forget that part.
*looks at her numerous lvl 50 toons that aren't Tankers, Scrappers, Brutes and Stalkers*

ummmm, mez isn't an issue for any of the squishes I have played up to 50. I must be missing something. Those squishes usually have plenty of mitigation to deal with mez prior to being mezzed (and in some specific cases, WHILE MEZZED) that those ATs you mentioned DON'T without their mez prot.

Also of all the squishes to request mez prot, blasters MOST DEFINETLY don't need it, since mez has been a joke ever since defiance for them. They can still blast WHILE mezzed.

I agree the problem is the mobs that have minions and lts that can chain. Simple solution: reduce the chain mezzing ability of the lts and minions in those mobs: Malta, Carnies, and Tsoo and KoA to a limited degree.


Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!

 

Posted

Just in case anyone decides to skim, here is my agreement with this solution, once again:

I agree the problem is the mobs that have minions and lts that can chain. Simple solution: reduce the chain mezzing ability of the lts and minions in those mobs: Malta, Carnies, and Tsoo and KoA to a limited degree.


Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Aura_Familia View Post
I agree the problem is the mobs that have minions and lts that can chain. Simple solution: reduce the chain mezzing ability of the lts and minions in those mobs: Malta, Carnies, and Tsoo and KoA to a limited degree.
Without backing or opposing this suggestion, I thought it might be worth pointing out that there is precedent for this. Quite a long time back (Issue 3-5 range) the devs reduced the mez potential of minions and some LTs in the early and mid levels. However, there's no similar precedent I know of for changes to level 40+ mobs, except for spot changes to individual mobs.


Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Lakanna View Post
solo, +0x1? Go deal with Carnies for a while.
I do, on my Blaster.
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Especially when the end boss in a "defeat all" is a DRM,
Which is downgraded to a Lt, that can be taken out fairly quickly relative to a boss.

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with an Illusionist in her group.
Also a Lt on heroic solo.

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Or try some Malta, where nearly every spawn has at least one critter that can throw a mez. Rikti have a ton of stuns that can make life miserable, and same problem as with carnies: their bosses, even downgraded to Lt's, often spawn with a second mezzer in the group.
more of the same.

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None of these will require a "full tray of breakfrees" but none can be handled without at least half a dozen.
Obviously, I'm doing somethign wrong then, only takes me one Breakfree to take out a group or two of Rikti on Heroic while solo (ie: 0/x1)

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Melee types don't need to use inspirations as a crutch simply to solo, nor to be able to do their job in a team setting. They actually get to use inspirations to increase effectiveness, not to attain basic effectiveness.
Same goes for the other ATs. They just need tactics (not the power)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Futurias View Post
Actually, he was saying that you must play those characters in one style. A particularly unheroic style, actually because at one point the developers decided that only melee archetypes 'should' get mezz protection of any sort.
I think you should try to gain more reading comprehension then.


There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lakanna View Post
solo, +0x1? Go deal with Carnies for a while. Especially when the end boss in a "defeat all" is a DRM, with an Illusionist in her group. Or try some Malta, where nearly every spawn has at least one critter that can throw a mez. Rikti have a ton of stuns that can make life miserable, and same problem as with carnies: their bosses, even downgraded to Lt's, often spawn with a second mezzer in the group.

None of these will require a "full tray of breakfrees" but none can be handled without at least half a dozen. Melee types don't need to use inspirations as a crutch simply to solo, nor to be able to do their job in a team setting. They actually get to use inspirations to increase effectiveness, not to attain basic effectiveness.
OK, just for the heck of it, I ran a few scanner missions in PI against Carnies and Circle of Thorns. Then I went and ran about half of Madeleine Casey's To Save a Soul arc. (I stopped when I got to the hunt 45 carnies mission.) I did this on my lvl 50 AR/EM blaster. I only have two tier one powers usable under Defiance: Power Thrust (low dmg, knockback, melee) and Burst. All my other single target attacks are melee.

I started on 0/x1, with bosses enabled. Then went to 0/x2 with bosses because on x1 I was only getting one boss per mission. I then went to 0/x3, no bosses which still spawned the boss mezzers but at LT level.

At boss level I defeated:
2 Death Mages
7 Dark Ring Mistresses
4 Master Illusionists
Along with a large number of standard Illusionist LT's.

I used no breakfrees for any of these with one exception. When I went to 0/x2 I had a mission that spawned a Dark Ring Mistress and a Master Illusionist together next to the mission objective, and they spawned at +1 level, conning red to me. Needless to say, this was a challenge. I did have to use a few BF's here (but not a whole tray, nor even half a tray ), and I also suffered my only defeats here as well. Of course, two bosses will never spawn together on base difficulty settings, so I really don't consider this a 'fair' fight exactly.

When I went to 0/x3 with bosses spawning as LT's it became almost trivially easy. I defeated 3 Master Illusionists at LT level with no effort at all.

Now, I consider myself a fairly average player. I was able to overcome every one of these challenges using the powers available to my character with one exception that required inspirations. On base difficulty settings a player will not be facing anything but LT level enemies. In that case, every one of those that mez can be 100% mitigated by the use of a single control power. If facing boss level mezzers, they can be taken out of the fight by stacking two control powers on them as well.

As far as Malta go, I didn't run any missions against them here, but I did solo Crimson's World Wide Red arc on this same blaster in the past. Can Malta be a challenge? Yes. Are they an insurmountable challenge? No. Maybe the devs should take a look at Malta. Then again, maybe it is not such a bad thing having a group that can be difficult and might require a player to grab some team mates for help.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by MrQuizzles View Post
Easy mode that Tankers, Scrappers, Brutes and Stalkers already have. You can't forget that part.
Tankers: Slow but steady
Scrappers: Scrapperloooooo-:Exclamation: Oh, woops, the Boss
Brutes: Smarsh!: Exclamation: Blues plz!
Stalkers: Stabby stabby - ganked

All Archetypes: Have weaknesses
Should not: be any other way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zwillinger View Post
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_Photon View Post
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
Tankers: Slow but steady
Scrappers: Scrapperloooooo-:Exclamation: Oh, woops, the Boss
Brutes: Smarsh!: Exclamation: Blues plz!
Stalkers: Stabby stabby - ganked

All Archetypes: Have weaknesses
Should not: be any other way.
Those are legitimate weaknesses (except the Brutes, that's their own fault; if I can manage endurance on a Rad/Dark Corr, then they can manage endurance, too;; also the scrappers, as they don't actually have that problem), and the other ATs have their fair share as well. The problem is that they also have the added magic bullet of mezzes thrown in on top of them.


 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha View Post
Realisation: Easy Mode request
Current Day Games: Stupidly easy
CoX comparison: Fairly well balanced
Balance: Much appreciated:
Easy Mode: Equals: High levels of fail
ah, so THAT's why scrappers and brutes are so rare, those "high levels of fail."

Wait...


119088 - Outcasts Overcharged. Heroic.

 

Posted

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Originally Posted by Lakanna View Post
solo, +0x1? Go deal with Carnies for a while. Especially when the end boss in a "defeat all" is a DRM, with an Illusionist in her group.
Oh! You mean the kind of spawn that can mez a scrapper or tanker? Because yes, if you get about 3 or 4 Illusionists/RMs/DRMs, you can easily get more than 10-13 mez mag, which will hold anything but a Granite + Rooted. Especially with them using Illusion/MC mezzes that don't have a positional component.

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Or try some Malta, where nearly every spawn has at least one critter that can throw a mez.
Which you also dealt with at level 8 with Clockwork when they spawn a Tesla Knight/Duke/Prince in every group, or Tsoo at 15 (those sorcs pack Petrifying Gaze, and the Ancestor Spirits have Handclap).

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Rikti have a ton of stuns that can make life miserable, and same problem as with carnies: their bosses, even downgraded to Lt's, often spawn with a second mezzer in the group.
That's the Rikti's schtick. They have mezzes, because they heavily train their psychic abilities. What's the biggest thing you see in comic books from psychics, beyond mind-reading and mental communication? Mezzing.

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None of these will require a "full tray of breakfrees" but none can be handled without at least half a dozen. Melee types don't need to use inspirations as a crutch simply to solo, nor to be able to do their job in a team setting. They actually get to use inspirations to increase effectiveness, not to attain basic effectiveness.
I solo all of those with my Ice/Ice/Ice blaster and rarely pop a breakie.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Back Alley Brawler
Did you just use "casual gamer" and "purpled-out warshade" in the same sentence?
Apostrophe guidelines.

 

Posted

Eh, I can kinda agree on some things. As far as giving squishies mez protection for pve content though? Nah.

How about mez resistance? Not anything too outrageous, squishies still get mezzed but not for 10 minutes after being hit with some mob's ZOMG mezzes. This would still keep squishies mezzable, but not OP'd, and still allow some AT's to solo a bit more without having to get a crutch (especially at early levels).


 

Posted

Ah, so what we should be doing is advocating that Scrappers, Tankers, Brutes and Stalkers all only have Mezz Protection on teams!

Perfect!


Still here, even after all this time!


 

Posted

Now isn't that strange. I bring up the idea that because anyone can solo without mezz protection, that no one solo needs to have mezz protection.

That way everyone can be 'challenged' quite equally (I'd call it annoyed the same way.)

An nary a reply or even an attempt to say 'it is not true.'


Still here, even after all this time!