LordLockeRA
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Posts
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Tankers are a tough fix because the problem is that their role in the game is vanishing, especially in Incarnate content. In normal teams control and debuffs generally make a dedicated aggro-grabber overkill outside maybe the initial positioning of scattered mobs, while the abundance of buffing available in incarnate content means that scrappers and brutes can generally do most of our job (the rest of which even WE generally have trouble doing thanks to auto-hit, no-resist etc etc.)
Survivability is not something that needs a major fix on tanks. We're tough enough for 99.5% of the content in the game and the last .5% is something they obviously don't want straight-up tanked. If anything, I'd give the tanks a passive that'd give them something that the other ATs don't have surviviability wise, like a Last Stand- maybe when a Tank's HP is out, they can remain standing as long as they have endurance, which can translate (Current End x Current Level/5) HP or something through damage, but still being drained as toggles are maintained and powers are used (maybe even disable End Recovery while Last Stand is active to prevent some shenanigans)
QoL issues would go a long way to making tanks more playable. We pay as much as everyone else to maintain our defenses and while we get more out of it, it is our role get more out of it. An across-the-board End Reduction on defensive clicks and toggles would go a long way to make playing a tank more bearable, especially solo. Survival is our role, why should we pay as much as everyone else to provide it?
Or if not that, why not increase the Tank's role as control. Increase the proc rate or provide a chance of additional magnitude on mez-inducing tanker attacks, or maybe add a new inherent power where the tanker applies a Mag-4 immobilize to someone he hits thre or more times in a row with an attack- 'pound that guy into the ground' as it were. Or provide damage reduction to all other targets on any AoE attack who's main target is the tanker-letting the tanker protect those nearby who wander into the line of fire intended for himself. -
For my Inv/EM's primary build, I think Nerve is going to be the order for the day, mostly because it lets me get away with 4-slotting my lesser attacks with Kinetic Combat and move more slots to more useful places instead of needing extra slots to shore up the accuracy the set barely provides. The added +Def helps too, since I'm not running any additional slots in Tough Hide and could use the extra boost from Invincibility and Weave.
That said, on a less-IO'd tank, I could see both Cardiac and Spiritual being high-demand, depending on the set mentioned and how well they could slot for end-redux. I know my SS/Shield brute that hasn't had the chance to get IO'd up is gunning for that Cardiac Boost to save her ailing blue bar issues. -
Quote:I'd forgotten about the -Damage in those powers. Been too long since I logged onto my woefully underplayed DM/Archery.Originally Posted by Obscure Blade
Incorrect. You have -damage from Twilight Grasp and Darkest Night to stack with Chemical, and the slow from Tar Patch to stack with Cryo. -
With Dual Pistols? Probably /Dark- lots of AoE powers but two of them have small finicky cones- Tar Patch helps keep everything in line. Doesn't hurt that it gets a lot of variable and useful tools in general that work just as well alone then as part of a big team- two control powers, two potent debuffs, a stealth toggle, a strong heal with a debuff component, and a pet. About the only thing against it is that none of it's effects stack with Chemical or Cryo bullets. My next suggestion would be Storm, which can Stack -Speed/-Recharge from Cryo or focus on keeping stuff knocked with Hurricane, Tornado, Cloud, and standard bullets. It'd be very late blooming though, comparatively.
I'd argue that the single easiest Corrupter to solo would be a Sonic/Kin, since you get Sonic's strong control tools and powerful ST chain along with Kin's absurd damage buffing potential along with movement and recharge bonuses for when things go south along with a strong heal for both health and endurance. Some Kin builds will probably go faster with Sonic's lower AoE damage, but you should be completely safe against most of what the game throws at you between Screech and Siren's Song, especially if you run heavy +recharge like mine does (Between Hasten, IO bonuses, slotting, and stacked Siphon Speeds I generally can Siren Song every five or six seconds and Screech almost as often- enough to lock a boss before they can really do much.) -
Quote:First off, there's a number of defenders that even solo will outstrip the damage of the average tank. My Kin/Rad does easially, and my TA/A is shaping up to likely do the same. There's a lot more to damage then just the AT's attack modifier. There are outliers on the tanker side too (Shield Defense/Dark Melee) but locking into powersets that do good damage is... much like locking into powersets that give squishies mez resistance. It's not an inherent part of your AT, but the option's there if you make the dive.Originally Posted by Futurias
You do realize that Tankers anemic damage is actually still quite a bit higher than Defenders, right? If low damage was an indicator of needing mezz protection, Defender would be top of the list.
I do think it's funny that you are stating you 'have to play' FF or Sonics (basically) to get mezz protection, even though they are technically mezz protection buffs for your team. And that +DEF is widely reviled as so useless later on.
I actually have played FF at times. It's incredibly boring and the worst of the 'must buff everyone powers. And can have cascade failure when a sleep hits when you are already protecting yourself from stuns and holds.
And then, of course, you have the problem that people wander out of range of the protection in big scattered fights.
If you're facing a villain group with a sleep (not terribly common), carry a breakfree. It's what my Fire brute does in the face of heavy Knockback or Immobilize like Circle of Thorns because I refused to go down the leaping pool. Having staus holes is something many of the melee ATs have to deal with, forget the squishy ATs.
FF also has a ton of knockback-inducing powers, as well as an enemy intangibility and a repel. It only has two targeted buffs! Even when you're buffing, it's once every four minutes! How can that be a boring, must buff set? Kinetics, with it's 1 and 2-minute buff durations... THAT is a must-buff set. And that's not even touching Sonic (Which gives Mez resistance AND ramps up your damage) and Traps (which is a really good crippler set in general) -
Quote:That's not a bad idea. While we're at it, we should totally buff tank damage while soloing. I mean, why should my tanker spend two minutes to kill an even-level spawn? It's not even a threat! Why should I suffer through watching these weaklings pick at my armor just because my damage is bad? It makes soloing painful and boring and I don't see why everyone else can plow through even-level minions at a crazy pace while I'm stuck whittling targets to death.Originally Posted by Futurias
Now isn't that strange. I bring up the idea that because anyone can solo without mezz protection, that no one solo needs to have mezz protection.
That way everyone can be 'challenged' quite equally (I'd call it annoyed the same way.)
An nary a reply or even an attempt to say 'it is not true.'
This is the arguement you're presenting, repackaged in another flavor. I'm sure you can see why the logic does not work. And just like a tanker's bad damage, there are options out there for those wanting mez on squishier toons.
You want to solo with mez protection, roll a toon that has a set that has mez protection. 13 of the 14 ATs have an option that grants them this- you want to play a Defender but hate getting held? Force Field, Sonic, or Traps defending is for you, my friend! Controllers get FF and Sonic. Corruptors get Sonic and Traps, Masterminds get Force Fields and Traps. Dominators have Domination. Only blasters are SOL, and they have Defiance and the ability to pretty much murder a difficult target at will, negating Mez problems from 95% of all enemy types (Tsoo and Malta, you carry breakfrees or just avoid them. If you want to complain about how you have to cherry pick mobs, you will want to complain to someone other then an Invuln tanker player of 16 issues, at least 5 of which required exactly that). Even then, you can still get Immobilize, Hold, Sleep, Taunt, Placate, and Stun Resistance or Protection from your power pools. These powers get in the way of your main build? No problem, that's why we get two- use one for your solo build, and one for your team build! Sure, getting Health, Acrobatics, Aid Self, and Assault on the same build is eight picks minimum and lock you in the Leaping travel pool, but many melee builds feel like they're locked into as many pool choices anyways- one of my favorite things about playing a squishier AT is that I don't feel anywhere near the need to go into the Fighting or Leaping pools just to perform my primary role better on top of Fitness for the ability to stay in a fight long enough to be sure it gets done.
Not everyone is challenged equally by solo content because City is balanced around team play and a variety of tools available to each player. Some tools work better in solo play, and giving some sets tools like Mez Resistance would completely break the game's balance. Giving Mez Resistance to a poor-performing pair like Psi/Mental or AR/Devices is almost fair. Getting Sonic/Energy or Ice/Elec blasters access to that same benefit would be nuts. You want to give my Sonic/Kin corrupter Mez protection? Thank you, you just got her past the only hurdle keeping her from soloing many of the game's AVs. Getting mez resistance to the squishy ATs would be catastrophic for game balance, even just in a soloing environment- you think most of our market recipes come from people running full teams of 8, or Fire/Kins milking Freakshow missions? You have options. You have choices. You can see what every power does in both your primary and secondary power sets at character creation. If you do not have mez protection and you want it dearly, and you do not pick a set that can give it at character creation, it's your own damn fault. -
Quote:That's foolishness. I can solo +0/x1 anything short of mezzing EB's with my Emp/Psi defender. If he can't solo with his Psi/Ment Blaster Build Up and built-in countermeasures to keep mez from completely shutting him down, there's something wrong, that is for certain. It's just the part of the equasion sitting in front of the keyboard.Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
Yeah, except he is complaining that he can't even solo a +0/x1, no boss spawn either without mez protection.
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Quote:The soloing game is balanced around +0/x1 no bosses/AVs. Complaining that your Psi/Mental blaster can't solo +3/x8 mez-heavy boss-filled packs is foolishness. MOST builds can't solo +3/x8 Bosses-on Malta, at least without heavy IO investment. I know my Ice/Storm troller, Fire/Mental Blaster and WolfCrab Arachnos Soldier can't, and I got serious doubts my Claws/Regen scrapper, Fire/Fire Brute, or Ninja/FF mastermind could either (Three of the best soloing ATs in the game!). My BS/WP scrapper and SS/Shield Brute probably could if I got them more Defense IO bonuses but IOing out any build for the soft-cap could probably solo a lot of things they were never meant to- as it is, they can usually get a good start before the heavy -Def Malta tends to throw around starts landing and it slowly degrades into a mudhole stomping.Originally Posted by Futurias
Actually, against some missions without going out and buying a whole bunch of break frees, no I could not solo. My Psi/Psi blaster against Malta really, really sucked because of all the mezz.
And BTW, all characters have some sort of mezz attack (that's why the no mezz protection in old PvP sucked so bad. It became 'who can mezz the squishy the fastest' issue.)
They already have the tools, the damage and (when not mezzed) the heavy resistance or defense.
If squishies don't 'need' mezz protection (so that challenge isn't 'taken away') then no one does, do they?
Of course, they won't be soloing +3/x8, but that 'should be' team content, shouldn't it?
My Inv/EM can, but that's because Invuln is pretty much got the exact tools needed to deal with Malta and I sacrificed a lot of offense (No Build Up or Epic attack powers, IO emphasis on +Def frequently at the cost of damage) for more defense. It takes them longer then Conserve Power takes to recharge to clear an average x8 spawn. My Sonic/Kin can, but that's due to an AoE sleep they can fire off every 10 seconds that lasts for over a minute- sleep half a spawn, run away, sleep the other half and get to work- on TOP of 'lolKin.' (Seriously, Siren's Song is one of the most blatently overpowered soloing tools in the game, especially if you frankenslot it for Recharge, Range, Sleep, and Acc)
The problem isn't even the Mez protection- it's the fact that... it's a +3 8 man spawn of Malta. Even if you're immune to their stun guns and freezing bullets, that's still a lot of gun mowing you down. Without some good resistances underneath stellar defenses, a way to cripple that horde, or some fantastic damage output (or some combination of the three), that's going to kill you in a matter of seconds. Complaining a few IO'd out minmax'd outliers can solo that mess and you can't is completely asinine, especially when Devs have repeatedly stated the game is not balanced around soloing x8 spawns OR min-max IO builds in order to keep the game accessible to everyone, casual and hardcore alike. -
Mez Protection is already over-proliferated as it is. Eight ATs (Scrappers, Tankers, both Kheldans, Arachnos Soldiers, Arachnos Widows, Brutes, and Stalkers) have access to all-the-time Mez Protection regardless of powerset, with everyone but the Kheldons and Soldiers requiring only endurance and possibly some very minor recharge slotting to keep it running (Kheldans need either specific teammates or specific forms. Soldiers don't even require endurance- it's all built-in) Another AT, Dominators, has access to Mez protection at least every so often, and can be perma'd.
Of the remaining ATs, all of them but Blasters have at least one powerset that offers mez protection to themselves, and multiple powersets available to Controllers, Corruptors, Masterminds, and Defenders can grant at least limited mez protection to a teammate, as can a pool power (Stimulant) that's a prerec anyways for one of the most popular pool powers in the game anyways. The last AT, Blasters, have an inherent that lets them keep fighting in limited capacity while Mez'd, so they're not at the same mercy everyone else is while held or stunned.
As it is, enemy mez is a very minor threat in the game anymore unless your team is entirely squish-based, facing an enemy faction where mez stacking is an issue (read: Tsoo or Malta) or facing an EB/AV that has a mez that cheats the system and just cuts through mez protection like butter (Ghost Widow.) Throwing mez protection to the few guys who still lack it built-in would make status induction so pointless that enemy mobs may as well have them removed and their other powers rebalanced to take advantage of it. And heck, one FF or Sonic player and mez is mostly a non-factor regardless of team makeup anyways, as can any powerset with a Clear Mind clone and a player dedicated to either keeping it up or really good at reacting to mez icons on the player bar.
As for soloing, I can't think of anything except boss-level enemies who are a serious issue with mezing. Damage classes can BU/Aim/whatever to murder a particularly nasty status inducer in an alpha of glory, and control classes can just mez them first. That leaves Defenders, which is the one time where I admit mez becomes an issue, especially for buff-oriented ones like Empathy, but most buff sets aren't particularly solo-friendly to begin with. -
Double-slot endredux in attacks until you get IO sets.
Don't spam footstomp on small packs- it's the biggest culpret of end munching, and unless you're next-deep in mobs you don't need to be throwing it every ten seconds. If you MUST spam it, slot if for endreudux over damage until you get a set in there and let Rage + Fury do all the boosting you need. Likewise, don't burn KO Blow on weak mobs that'll die anyways to a weak attack chain- this'll also help keep Fury up, which in turn will help you kill mobs faster for less end.
Toggle management might be a dirty word around here, but it definately helps since SD's toggles don't come cheap- turn off Deflection and Battle Agility when the next pack isn't in tabbing range. (Against All Odds roots on activation, so let it keep running).
Don't be afraid to gobble blues, especially on larger teams. Inspirations drop frequently and with combining you can usually get more when you need them. Bruiting in general tought me to pay the occasional visit to the inspiration stores to refill my pockets with Blues, Greens, and Purples to let me keep going at full tilt- unlocking a contact in each zone can save you a lot of grief later when you need to fill that tray. -
Great guide. I think you've undersold the solo FF Offender, tho-
Force Bolt, which it's damage is downright laughable, it pretty much assured knockback. It's a fast attack, and knockback = distance from melee hitters + time spent flying/getting up for everyone. Definately handy.
Second, Detention field, which basically lets you put the most dangerous opponent in stasis until everyone else is good and dead. Other solo offender builds WISH they could just point at the most dangerous enemy in a group and say 'yo, deal with ya later'. and shove him to the side while offing his minions.
I respecced these two abilities out, deciding I wanted to focus on blastas and the 'big three' and add the Fitness pool and Energy Torrent to my build- mistake. Big mistake. I'm wishing I had another respec, because it just wasn't obvious how much these two powers were adding to my soloability until suddenly I didn't have them (And Energy Torrent... if it wasn't pretty much assured knockback on minions, I'd call it a waste of a power)
I'm... mainly a group offender now, yeah- soloing has gotten a lot slower now that I'm basically praying my big bubble provides me enough def to survive a decent pack of Council or Family. And I'm really not looking forward to facing the Tsoo before I get DF and FB back.
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Dodgeball Ace- Lv 21 FF/NRG Defender, Victory
Blackout Shadow- Lv 14 DM/Regen Scrapper, Victory