Mezz Protection for All!
By
AlienOne,
Posted on: 2009-09-17 24:18 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Running solo, at standard difficulty, (once again, what the game is balanced around)|
Originally Posted by Futurias
Actually, I have never stated that the Devs should give everyone tanker level protection (nor even close, actually).
What I stated was that a minor increase from nothing allows them to balance 'stacking' mezzes on tanks and scrappers that do get hit with up to four to eight time more mezzing than said squishies. But only by increasing durations that would kill squishies with no mezz protection. That's why Mezz resistance is a far greater boon to the non-squishies than it is to the squishies. It keeps stacking mezz from stacking. A squishie is still mezzed (if at times for minorly less amounts) but a tank basically goes from 'might get mezzed due to duration' to 'never going to get mezzed. High duration, stacking mezzes were the design to overcome heavy mezz protection. But it kills people with no mezz protection. |
you shouldn't run into very many things that can stack mezzes to the point you are describing. Malta are one of the few exceptions, and they are designed to be a difficult group for level 50 characters.
You seem to be under the impression that because your tanker or scrapper can solo at +2/x8 your defender should be able to as well.
Name me a power set combo that cannot deal with the ONE mezzing foe usually found in standard difficulty mobs. That is 3 minions, or a LT and a minion.
That would be a powerset combo that does not have a mez in it, on an AT that has no inherent protection or resistance to mez (yes, Defiance counts as resistance, because you can still do SOMETHING to help yourself)
Edit: hedgehog, you fail at reading comprehension. What I said was "What you have been saying, in a nutshell, is that the game is not fun if you cannot ignore the abilities of your enemies and lay waste to them at will."
Tanks, scrappers, stalkers, brutes, and VEATs quite clearly CAN ignore them. Meaning that it is being said that the game is not fun for ATs other than them.
If you're going to be snarky, make sure you know what's being said first.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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What he was saying(and you continue to ignore) is that if they gave squishies some minimal protection, they could work with the mobs to actually challenge the tanks/scrappers. Not have them running around saying the game is too easy because they chose the easy AT.
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Originally Posted by LordXenite
So, you're saying a Controller for example should be able to stand back-to-back with a Tanker and not be mezzed by the same mezzes the Tanker is absorbing?
More challenging? How exactly? This game has Break Free inspirations. It has mitigation tools that enable some characters to completely shut-down mezzers before mezzing happens even. Of course it's not about the balance. The balance already exists and it requires squishies to employ an already existing game mechanic called Break Free inspirations and team! Did you know for example that a team of squishies without Tanks/Scrappers can use Stimulant on each other to basically grant (and boost) their mez protection above Mag 3, and the only effort on their part would be to actually take Stimulant (a power that opens up at Lv6) and use it on one another?! Talk about cooperative gameplay tactics!  The reason why *I* would say this outcry is about easy-mode and not about balance is probably because I've only noticed being mezzed as a problem when I solo without Break Free inspirations. When I do that, I have only myself to blame! If you were saying perhaps that the Devs should increase the Inspiration drop of Break Free inspirations, or alternatively adjust the Inspiration-drop algorithm so for each person, it drops an inspiration that can be used in the 3-to-1 conversion process so that you can more easily make Break Free inspirations, now that I'd totally be for, but reliable mez-protection that is obtainable by taking a power, for every AT? That I can't agree with. Perhaps if the whole concept of mezzing were re-done, we could talk about it, but I doubt that would ever happen. |
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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On normal difficulty, minimal protection might as well be complete protection. |
Originally Posted by hedgehog_NA
What he was saying(and you continue to ignore) is that if they gave squishies some minimal protection, they could work with the mobs to actually challenge the tanks/scrappers. Not have them running around saying the game is too easy because they chose the easy AT.
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In a solo mission, set at +0/x1, you will almost never see more than one mezzing enemy in any given spawn. Mag 3 protection will prevent just about any mez thrown at you in that situation. In that situation, just about every squishie character in the game can do SOMETHING to prevent that mez from ever being fired at them.
It was never intended for any AT in the game to solo at the highest difficulty settings, where minimal protection will fail you. Any AT can solo on normal difficulty settings. If squishies are given Mag 3 protection (which is the same protection Bosses get), they will be able to ignore 90% of the mezzes they will encounter, just like a tank.
And if they make all these changes, and work on the mobs to challenge tanks and scrappers...how long is it going to be before this exact same thing comes up again?
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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They don't need to. When I think of CoH, I don't think of Statesman and Sister Psyche, except as the supporting characters.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Every single one of the characters I mention there has had their own book at some point, and in their book they were THE hero. But they are not the characters a comic company uses to advertise, because they are lesser known.
NCSoft will never use Claws and Effect to advertise their game, they will use Statesman and Lord Recluse, because those are this world's version of the flagship superheroes that keep comics going. |
I think about Betty Sizzle and Steel Wrangler and Blue Ally and Screaming Pete and Frozen Burn and a bunch of others.
The NPCs haven't done anything more spectacular than what the PCs do. In some cases the NPCs may be equally spectacular, but they never seem more spectacular.
I just think it is wrong and not supported by what I see in game to characterize the player characters as second tier. It seems to me the writers have gone out of their way to make it clear that the PCs are first tier, especially once leveled to 40. Even by the late 20s though (and in some arcs, sooner) the PCs are saving the world (villains don't have it as good story-wise, I admit, but some of the stuff in the 30s is pretty impressive, and the 40s does grant a few areas where you can feel earth-shattering).
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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For which ATs, then, is it OK to solo at the highest difficulty settings and for which is it forbidden?
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
It was never intended for any AT in the game to solo at the highest difficulty settings, where minimal protection will fail you. Any AT can solo on normal difficulty settings. If squishies are given Mag 3 protection (which is the same protection Bosses get), they will be able to ignore 90% of the mezzes they will encounter, just like a tank.
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Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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And I'm saying that everyone in the game has access to two wonderful tools against mezzing, Break Free inspirations and powers that mitigate mezzing either before or during its activation by the enemy.
Originally Posted by hedgehog_NA
What he was saying(and you continue to ignore) is that if they gave squishies some minimal protection, they could work with the mobs to actually challenge the tanks/scrappers. Not have them running around saying the game is too easy because they chose the easy AT.
If running with All Kheldian teams has taught me anything about this game, it is the simple fact that there are few things in the game that cannot be overcome by tactics, especially on the standard difficulty setting.
When we (on an all Kheldian team) properly work together, we go through Rikti, Malta, Carnies and other mezzing groups that no doubt normal teams go through much more smoothly and without having to employ too much planning.
Like Claws says, if we're talking about standard difficulty, the game is already very easy to handle even without stocking Break Free inspirations and every teammate packing Stimulant.
Please notice that both Claws and myself are discussing standard-difficulty and that soloing game content in an MMO is supposed to be more challenging than teaming.
If you're in a team situation and the squishies spend half the fight mezzed while the Tank/Scrapper waltz in and kill everything, someone's doing something very differently than the teaming experience I've experienced on a multitude of squishes, I might add in this game for almost 4 years now!
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
As someone who often plays one of the afor mentioned 'squishies' I have to say that I am with Claws on this. The game already offers me the ability to easily overcome a mezz in the form of inspirations.
When on my Kin I usually position myself where my teammates will gain the best benefit from my buffs/debuffs, typically hovering over the mob. I have to maintain a constant vigilance on my own status in these situations. If I'm soloing, then my strategy will obviously change. If people are unable to adopt different strategies base on their AT/Powers/situations, then it is not the fault of the games design, or inherents, or weaknesses.
As I am constantly telling my brother... "Dude, you don't get a ToHit bonus with Assault Rifle trying to shoot a foe in the face, at point-blank range."
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Just like in the Army, when Statesman sends my team to fight off Lord Recluse in the STF, I know who's the Chief of Staff and who are the Hired Guns. Who's calling the shots and who's the young mercenary trying to make a name for himself, and actually, I'm quite OK with all that. I want to be a Hero and save the day, and not be the one to recruit and send Heroes to save the day or meet their end.
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
It seems to me the writers have gone out of their way to make it clear that the PCs are first tier, especially once leveled to 40. Even by the late 20s though (and in some arcs, sooner) the PCs are saving the world (villains don't have it as good story-wise, I admit, but some of the stuff in the 30s is pretty impressive, and the 40s does grant a few areas where you can feel earth-shattering).
That's not so much a question of forbidding it, but if I would hazard a guess, I'd say that most MMO's out there have a bunch of classes that solo easier than others, and for some bizarre reason, it's a lot easier for Scrappers to solo stuff. Quote:
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
For which ATs, then, is it OK to solo at the highest difficulty settings and for which is it forbidden?
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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It's OK for any AT that you can pull it off with. |
Originally Posted by StratoNexus
For which ATs, then, is it OK to solo at the highest difficulty settings and for which is it forbidden?
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I have a defender that can do it (Rad/Sonic), and I have a scrapper that can't(My main, believe it or not, too much incoming damage to heal away)
If you can solo on the highest difficulty setting, good for you.
If you can't, it's not the game's fault.
Raising the difficulty makes it more difficult, a fairly obvious statement, but one that seems to be escaping people here. When a lot of people talk about raising the difficulty they are referring to how much xp/influence/drops/whatever they get per mission, and seem offended that it actually gets harder
Player skill comes into it as well. Just because one person can do something does not mean that another should automatically be able to. The one that can is simply a better player than the one who cannot. (assuming identical builds)
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I agree everyone should have mez protection. But it should be an option, and not mandatory. Those who opt for the mez protection route should also get a high HP modifier and high damage. But to balance that out, they'd also be limited to melee attacks, and not get any buffs or debuffs.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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Don't melee ATs generate more aggro? Meaning more mezzes being thrown at them? |
Originally Posted by Futurias
Not all defenders have that sort of tool. And quite a few melee sets do have some sort of mezz.
No one has shown me convincing evidence that Scrappers, Tanks, Stalkers and Brutes could not actually 'get by' without mezz protection solo. From what I've seen (and played) they would just be in the same 'unfun' boat as the squishies. |
Defenders have their Primary (and some of their secondary) to proactively prevent being mezzed.
Controllers have BOTH their Primary and secondary (and a APP) to prevent being mezzed.
Blasters can attack while mezzed.
Kheldians can use Dwarf form.
MMs have a sheetload of pets.
Dominators have Domination.
So, there you go. Every AT that doesn't get mezz protection as a mechanic in place or has the ability to avoid mezz with their primary/secondary and even APP choices.
The Melee ATs don't always have this luxury and have to face far more aggro at most times.
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What does aggro generation have to do with playing solo? All the aggro is your own then anyways.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
Don't melee ATs generate more aggro? Meaning more mezzes being thrown at them?
Defenders have their Primary (and some of their secondary) to proactively prevent being mezzed. Controllers have BOTH their Primary and secondary (and a APP) to prevent being mezzed. Blasters can attack while mezzed. Kheldians can use Dwarf form. MMs have a sheetload of pets. Dominators have Domination. So, there you go. Every AT that doesn't get mezz protection as a mechanic in place or has the ability to avoid mezz with their primary/secondary and even APP choices. The Melee ATs don't always have this luxury and have to face far more aggro at most times. |
Defenders do not get the ability to lock down entire mobs with controls (that would be the place of controllers and dominators.)
Let's just ask hypothetically if non-squishies could run solo without their mezz protection... should they get the 'fun challenge' added so that they are more balanced towards squishy playstyle?
Or should we enhance the squishies slightly to play more at the non-squishies level.
Which is more fair?
Still here, even after all this time!
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This is true.|
Originally Posted by Futurias
What does aggro generation have to do with playing solo? All the aggro is your own then anyways.
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Originally Posted by Futurias
Defenders do not get the ability to lock down entire mobs with controls (that would be the place of controllers and dominators.)
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Originally Posted by Futurias
Let's just ask hypothetically if non-squishies could run solo without their mezz protection... should they get the 'fun challenge' added so that they are more balanced towards squishy playstyle?
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Originally Posted by Futurias
Which is more fair?
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That's about as fair as I would like to see it.
I'm not saying the mezz mechanics in this game are good, but I think it's too late to go about changing things now without upsetting too many folks. Your ideas might be better suited for a new MMO.
But you side-stepped the question. If melee-ATs *can* solo without Mezz Protection... would it be more fair to remove their mezz protection or to grant the non-melee-ATs some mezz protection?
Still here, even after all this time!
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Neither, because the current system is balanced, and works well for the vast majority of players.
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Originally Posted by Futurias
But you side-stepped the question. If melee-ATs *can* solo without Mezz Protection... would it be more fair to remove their mezz protection or to grant the non-melee-ATs some mezz protection?
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Don't you think Break Free inspirations are a fair mechanism? Each AT eventually comes to a point where there's at least one (if not more) type of Inspiration that AT does not rely on anymore, and then that Inspiration can be used to create Break Free inspirations. I'd rather see the Devs increase our ability to create Break Free inspirations as the means to make soloing easier for AT's that were designed from the get-go as a team-based AT and a challenge-AT for soloists.
Originally Posted by Futurias
But you side-stepped the question. If melee-ATs *can* solo without Mezz Protection... would it be more fair to remove their mezz protection or to grant the non-melee-ATs some mezz protection?
Just like Claws said before... Heaven's forbid people meet a hurdle they can't just click one button to jump over... 
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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Which is still side-stepping the question. But you'd hate to admit that either part could be correct.|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
Neither, because the current system is balanced, and works well for the vast majority of players.
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Originally Posted by LordXenite
Don't you think Break Free inspirations are a fair mechanism? Each AT eventually comes to a point where there's at least one (if not more) type of Inspiration that AT does not rely on anymore, and then that Inspiration can be used to create Break Free inspirations. I'd rather see the Devs increase our ability to create Break Free inspirations as the means to make soloing easier for AT's that were designed from the get-go as a team-based AT and a challenge-AT for soloists.
Just like Claws said before... Heaven's forbid people meet a hurdle they can't just click one button to jump over... |
Just like scrappers and tanks 'relying' on blues to be able to finish missions a long time ago.
Still here, even after all this time!
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If you're soloing standard difficulty content, on a squishy, and relying on inspirations to carry you through every fight, after Lv32, I think there's something definitely wrong in either build or playstyle.
Originally Posted by Futurias
The over-reliance on break-frees would indicate an actual problem with mezzing, actually.
Just like scrappers and tanks 'relying' on blues to be able to finish missions a long time ago.
Now, granted, I haven't played every AT in the game, but are you specifically talking about an AT you're having trouble with when soloing standard difficulty content, or is this merely a theoretical discussion?
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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No, I answered your question directly. The only avoidance in this thread is being done by you, ignoring the multitude of posts from those of us who have no issues dealing with mezzing opponents on AT's without status protection.|
Originally Posted by Futurias
Which is still side-stepping the question. But you'd hate to admit that either part could be correct.
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| The over-reliance on break-frees would indicate an actual problem with mezzing, actually. |
Or would it be the "over-reliance" where you, yourself implied you could handle 75% of missions without relying on breakfrees?
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Originally Posted by Futurias
I'd estimate about 1/4 or so of the missions were of that sort of annoyance. Basically it boiled down to 'check tray for any breakfrees... none. Damn, have to stop my mission and go buy breakfrees to fight that (not minion) lieutenant.
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It isn't an exaggeration. A large part of Malta missions are 'defeat blah-blah-boss' with their 20 second mezzes, even when they are downgraded to lts.
The worst were when you didn't have good line of sight around a corner and they basically got to 'jump' on you.
If you did not have a beak free, you were pretty guaranteed a death. But sure, keep telling yourself that 'everyone solos fine'.
Lies that like will probably make it easier to keep your blinders on.
Still here, even after all this time!
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what you are saying is that it is time to remove mez protection from melee toon s because they have tools to mitigate the threat.
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Originally Posted by LordXenite
And I'm saying that everyone in the game has access to two wonderful tools against mezzing, Break Free inspirations and powers that mitigate mezzing either before or during its activation by the enemy.
If running with All Kheldian teams has taught me anything about this game, it is the simple fact that there are few things in the game that cannot be overcome by tactics, especially on the standard difficulty setting. When we (on an all Kheldian team) properly work together, we go through Rikti, Malta, Carnies and other mezzing groups that no doubt normal teams go through much more smoothly and without having to employ too much planning. Like Claws says, if we're talking about standard difficulty, the game is already very easy to handle even without stocking Break Free inspirations and every teammate packing Stimulant. Please notice that both Claws and myself are discussing standard-difficulty and that soloing game content in an MMO is supposed to be more challenging than teaming. If you're in a team situation and the squishies spend half the fight mezzed while the Tank/Scrapper waltz in and kill everything, someone's doing something very differently than the teaming experience I've experienced on a multitude of squishes, I might add in this game for almost 4 years now! |
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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Every one of those downgraded bosses can be 100% neutralized with the application of ONE single control power. LT level opponents only have mag 2 status protection. Every squishy AT has at least one mag 3 control power available. The only thing preventing you from locking them down is if your attack misses. With proper accuracy, that will only occur 5% of the time.|
Originally Posted by Futurias
It isn't an exaggeration. A large part of Malta missions are 'defeat blah-blah-boss' with their 20 second mezzes, even when they are downgraded to lts.
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| The worst were when you didn't have good line of sight around a corner and they basically got to 'jump' on you. |
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If you did not have a beak free, you were pretty guaranteed a death. But sure, keep telling yourself that 'everyone solos fine'. Lies that like will probably make it easier to keep your blinders on. |
Unfortunately, I am heading out the door for work right now, so I won't have time to do this right away, but I will be more than happy to run any number of Malta missions using a squishy and see how far I can get without using any breakfrees.
Better yet, maybe I'll just go make an AE mission with NOTHING BUT mezzing opponents.. Hmm. That almost sounds like it might be entertaining. Spawns of nothing but Malta Gunslingers, Carnie Dark Ring Mistresses, Madness Mages...
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Now that toggles are merely suppressed, instead of shut-off, it may indeed be time to reassess the mez protection mechanic on armored ATs. While I am not advocating a change, I certainly do not think its absolutely vital that stalkers, scrappers, and brutes and possibly even tankers remain at their current level of safety from mezzing.|
Originally Posted by hedgehog_NA
what you are saying is that it is time to remove mez protection from melee toon s because they have tools to mitigate the threat.
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That being said, while many armored ATs do have some small means of mez mitigation beyond their straight up protection power, most squishies have better means of countering a mezzer (even if that advantage is simply that the squishy can employ the counter from range).
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
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Good answer. I can't quibble with that. It matches my experience and beliefs. |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
It's OK for any AT that you can pull it off with.
I have a defender that can do it (Rad/Sonic), and I have a scrapper that can't(My main, believe it or not, too much incoming damage to heal away) If you can solo on the highest difficulty setting, good for you. If you can't, it's not the game's fault. Raising the difficulty makes it more difficult, a fairly obvious statement, but one that seems to be escaping people here. When a lot of people talk about raising the difficulty they are referring to how much xp/influence/drops/whatever they get per mission, and seem offended that it actually gets harder Player skill comes into it as well. Just because one person can do something does not mean that another should automatically be able to. The one that can is simply a better player than the one who cannot. (assuming identical builds) |
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
What you have been saying, in a nutshell, is that the game is not fun if you cannot ignore the abilities of your enemies and lay waste to them at will.
snip
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages