Mezz Protection for All!
By
AlienOne,
Posted on: 2009-09-17 24:18 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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My em/stone tanker has much better mitigation than my emp/nrg defender. My tanker can stack stuns till tuesday and my defender has a on/off kb to rely on. Not even close. i dont consider super hero/hero support to be even close to balanced. I guess we should all just run scrappers and we should be fine. Btw, doms have fine mitigation in all the controls they pffer. Why should domination offer mez protection? cant they just use tactics to mitigate?
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Originally Posted by StratoNexus
Now that toggles are merely suppressed, instead of shut-off, it may indeed be time to reassess the mez protection mechanic on armored ATs. While I am not advocating a change, I certainly do not think its absolutely vital that stalkers, scrappers, and brutes and possibly even tankers remain at their current level of safety from mezzing.
That being said, while many armored ATs do have some small means of mez mitigation beyond their straight up protection power, most squishies have better means of countering a mezzer (even if that advantage is simply that the squishy can employ the counter from range). |
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
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So what you are saying is you ran blindly around a corner smack into a mob? Yep, I can see where mezz protection would have helped you in that situation...|
Originally Posted by Futurias
It isn't an exaggeration. A large part of Malta missions are 'defeat blah-blah-boss' with their 20 second mezzes, even when they are downgraded to lts.
The worst were when I didn't have good line of sight around a corner and they basically got to 'jump' on you. If I did not have a beak free, I was pretty guaranteed a death. But sure, keep telling yourself that 'everyone solos fine'. Lies that like will probably make it easier to keep your blinders on. |
Do I hate being mezz'd? Sure. I have learned to use the tools and options available to me within the game to minimize the effects.
-Nearly smacks head against the desk in frustration-
Ye gods almighty I though this level of 'Pure Daft' was illegal...
WHY are you trying to solo with defenders on harder diffs? Sure, you can pull it off on some sets and slottings, but thats NOT what they were designed for.
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I...buh...th....| My em/stone tanker has much better mitigation than my emp/nrg defender. My tanker can stack stuns till tuesday and my defender has a on/off kb to rely on. Not even close. i dont consider super hero/hero support to be even close to balanced. I guess we should all just run scrappers and we should be fine. Btw, doms have fine mitigation in all the controls they pffer. Why should domination offer mez protection? cant they just use tactics to mitigate? |
Words fail me.
Defenders and Tankers are BOTH support classes. They both have middle range damage, with the fenders having ranged attacks over melee. The Tankers whole POINT is to sit and absorb stupid ammounts of damage. And, yes, mezz protection. Their job is to KEEP all that Mezz OFF the rest of the team. Thats the whole point. Scrappers are the same, although to a lesser degree, and that lesser degree is countered by increased damage output.
Blasters have the longest ranged and most damaging attacks, and they practically DO have mez protection thanks to Defiance nowadays. The mitigation there is being able to slap a mob through the wall before it knows what the hell just happened.
Controllers have their own mezzes, and if you DON'T use them to render-helpess things that can mezz you back then thats entirely your own fault.
Kheldians have been covered. Multiple times.
Over onto Redside now.
MMs. Don't need it. Pets make shear mincemeat out of anything, unless the player hsa really got in over their head, in which that is again their fault.
Corruptors. See Defenders, although reverse the damage and buffing. They are still a support class, and do their jobs very well.
Dominators, see Controllers. Neutralise them, pulverise them, rinse and repeat.
Brutes and Stalkers are similar to Tankers and Scrappers, at least in the way of defences. They are the primary damage dealers, they are in the thick of it and in melee range, ergo they need some level of protection.
VEATs are covered.
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| Do I hate being mezz'd? Sure. I have learned to use the tools and options available to me within the game to minimize the effects. |
And if you want to -rep me for stating the obvious, at least have the guts to say it out loud, hmm?
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Umm... I don't remember posting that. So no, that's not what I'm saying.
Originally Posted by hedgehog_NA
what you are saying is that it is time to remove mez protection from melee toon s because they have tools to mitigate the threat.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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In all fairness, your Emp/Energy Defender does have a 100% knockback power, Power Push. Having said that though, without also having a hard control power available to use as well, I would not want to use that combo to solo at all.
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Originally Posted by hedgehog_NA
My em/stone tanker has much better mitigation than my emp/nrg defender. My tanker can stack stuns till tuesday and my defender has a on/off kb to rely on.
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I'd like to address this red herring claim of melee AT's not needing their status protection. It comes down to two very simple points.|
Originally Posted by Clouded
No. Why would they? I've already outlined that every AT has the ability to deal with mezz in this game. Melee ATs rely on their attacks, for the most part, to "debuff" the enemy. Squishy ATs get controls, buffs, debuffs, moar damage, mechanics, inherents, forms, etc to deal with mezz.
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- The majority of Scrapper and Tanker attack sets do not have any hard controls at all.
- Of those that do, every one of them is a melee attack (7 foot range). Those Scrappers and Tankers would never reach melee range to use their controls. Perception radius for a minion is 45 feet; a lieutenant is 50 feet; a boss, EB or AV is 54 feet. The squishies have the advantage here, as their controls are ranged attacks that can be applied from outside of perception range before the spawn has even agro'ed.
Actually, your 'majority' is actually less than half. Most melee sets have some sort of tool. Be it stacking debuffs (dual) or mezzing (SS, EM, MA). It may not be a hard hold, but there's more than you are stating. Or some ability to hit from Hide.
As I was playing today, I *forgot* to turn on my mezz protection on my MA/Inv. I was playing auto-SKed up to 40 against some custom mobs and Crey. The only reason I noticed is I got KBed backwards.
As I was a lowly 22-ish character, I had barely gotten my mezz protection, so its been an interesting point that I could solo, with only my Smash/Lethal shield. It got a lot easier with Unyielding and then Dull Pain, but it was technically possible (when I didn't have super-mobs of end-sucking electricity zapping.)
And with all of the travel powers, you can easily get into melee when needed. Teleport can put you directly into melee with a queued power.
So do 'scrappers and tanks really need mezz protection solo' is a quite valid question. It sure makes it easier, but I think 'required' is a stretch.
Of course, I don't think squishies 'are required' but I do think that a little mezz protection could make them a lot more fun to play.
Still here, even after all this time!
squishies require a whole set of different tactics to play then the melee class. stop ignoring the obvious answers to your play style problem, take the advice and go on about your playing. let this thread die already.
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With some tactical play, they can run solo without using their secondary at all. Does this mean that they should have their mitigative abilities removed, or that squishies should get armors? Controllers can solo without using their buffing or debuffing abilities. Should those be removed or spread to everyone?|
Originally Posted by Futurias
Let's just ask hypothetically if non-squishies could run solo without their mezz protection... should they get the 'fun challenge' added so that they are more balanced towards squishy playstyle?
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Arguing that they have something you don't doesn't work, particularly when you have something they don't. Arguing that they can live without them isn't going to work when you have things you can live without as well.
If you're really desperate to convince the devs that one of the core mechanics of the game needs to be significantly altered, you're going to need a much, much, much better argument than "I don't like it".
We'll always have Paragon.
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Then why are so many people desperate to keep squishies from getting some protection?|
Originally Posted by NeverDark
With some tactical play, they can run solo without using their secondary at all. Does this mean that they should have their mitigative abilities removed, or that squishies should get armors? Controllers can solo without using their buffing or debuffing abilities. Should those be removed or spread to everyone?
Arguing that they have something you don't doesn't work, particularly when you have something they don't. Arguing that they can live without them isn't going to work when you have things you can live without as well. If you're really desperate to convince the devs that one of the core mechanics of the game needs to be significantly altered, you're going to need a much, much, much better argument than "I don't like it". |
"Oh, Scrappers and Tankers need their protection... excepting solo. But don't add their challenge to us. Quit asking for our easy mode!"
That's basically been about 50% of this thread. And when I turned it around and said, "How about adding that non-mezz protection challenge to scrappers and tankers?" I got yelled at that they need it and don't you dare take it away, even solo where it isn't required.
That sounds to me like the height of hypocrisy.
Still here, even after all this time!
you are trying to compare soloing a melee toon set for 1 person team size versus soloing a squishie set for 2+ team size. at least that is how i understand it. guess what... your argument fails. there is absolutely no NEED to change a game mechaninc that works as was intended. and it won't change just because you don't like not being able to solo on a squishie set to 2+. carry purple insps and break frees and get the shield that is offered to you from your epic pool and load it up with staus io's. granted thats only 2 io's but it will help you to lessen the severity of the mezzes.
also, your idea of give squishies mez protection and up the mezz ability of the npc's fails so hard. that would totaly negate giving squishies mez protection in the first place. use the tools that have been provided or just don't play squishies.
Actually, the point about needing mezz protection to solo was to highlight the blatant hypocrisy of the people saying that squishies should not get mezz-protection, because they don't "need" it.
Yet, turned around, no one "needs" mezz-protection solo.
The point of giving squishies minor mezz protection would actually allow the developers to use long duration mezzes that are easier to stack. Right now, they are just death on squishies.
Done right, they could be built in such a way that tanks and scrappers would need assistance more against those mezzers while not extremely affecting squishies.
It would create a boundary situation where the developers could plan around +18 magnitude stuns on the tanks (that might suppress his toggles for a few seconds) while it might only hit the squishies for +3 at times and only stunning them *also* for a few seconds.
Right now, if you can stack enough long duration stuns to affect a scrapper (not even a tanker) you have probably knocked out all the squishies for most of the fight (much to their displeasure.)
It gives the possibility to change it from a pure binary to a situational issue.
Still here, even after all this time!
ok...now you seem to be just typing to see yourself talk. you completely ignore every option you have been given to deal with mez and yet you still want to try to run around the bush and try to get everyone to agree with you.
guess it's not to late to start handing out the snacks... i have popcorn, candy, chips and dip, ribs, ice cream, s'mores...you name it i got it. i even have all kinds of drinks to go with it...
please take a number, your order will be taken shortly.
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You know what they say: You can lead a horse to water....
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Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
ok...now you seem to be just typing to see yourself talk. you completely ignore every option you have been given to deal with mez and yet you still want to try to run around the bush and try to get everyone to agree with you.
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They'd probably say that 'everything was fine' before the cost reduction went into place for powers.
Dang people for wanting to improve this game!
Still here, even after all this time!
I'd never say don't give mez-protection to squishies because they don't need it. I'll always say, don't give mez-protection to squishies because with it, they would no longer be squishies. 
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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That's not what was said.|
Originally Posted by Futurias
But sure, keep telling yourself that 'everyone solos fine'.
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What was said was that all ATs solo fine. Different players add or subtract from the solo-ability of any AT.
Reading comprehension please.
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They'd probably say that 'everything was fine' before the cost reduction went into place for powers. Dang people for wanting to improve this game! |
Oh, and I ran a 0/x8 mission on my Human form Peacebringer this morning. Didn't use a single Breakfree. Granted, it was a level 7 mission against Skulls, but still. I only needed to rez maybe 3 times in the entire kill all mission. managed to get about half the Skull boss badge and a quarter of the Kill Skulz badge from that single mission.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
This entire argument seems to be based on a misunderstanding of what is a solo mission. While some scrappers (and I do think that this number is inflated by those who think forum scrappers = all scrappers) may be able to solo at +3 x8, I'm willing to bet that very few actually can. Mine certainly can't yet (except maybe my SR scrapper, and that would be WITH some inspiration usage), at least not reliably. It is a very tough challenge, and one that we seem to be over looking.
Once you go beyond +0 x1, we're looking at things that should be increasingly more difficult.
I come from someone who plays squishies and scrappers and tankers. The solo abilities of my squishies on normal difficulty modes are quite fine. They solo quickly enough to not be aggravating, even my defender, which, granted, is a rad defender. But they also have tools available to them that scrappers simply do not because most squishies have 2 powersets capable of affecting spawns and taking enemies out of commission. There are exceptions that might find it difficult, but those are exceptions and team oriented sets that tend to do quite well in team situations.
+0 x1 should be your standard difficulty. All the powersets I've played can easily play up to +2 x2, even on a blaster. Malta should not be the standard group that you take for solo play because they're meant to be difficult.
Imagine that.
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
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1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
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You DO realize that this statement completely invalidates your previous argument, don't you? |
Originally Posted by Futurias
As I was playing today, I *forgot* to turn on my mezz protection on my MA/Inv. I was playing auto-SKed up to 40 against some custom mobs and Crey. The only reason I noticed is I got KBed backwards.
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If your scrapper got along fine with their mez protection turned off....why does your squishy need mez protection again?
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Originally Posted by Futurias
Actually, the point about needing mezz protection to solo was to highlight the blatant hypocrisy of the people saying that squishies should not get mezz-protection, because they don't "need" it.
Yet, turned around, no one "needs" mezz-protection solo. |
I fail to see why squishies should get something that you've already said your scrapper doesn't need. Especially since an overwhelming majority of squishies can prevent a mez from ever landing in the first place.
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| The point of giving squishies minor mezz protection would actually allow the developers to use long duration mezzes that are easier to stack. Right now, they are just death on squishies. |
You complain about mezzes on squishies....and your solution is to increase the duration of them?!?
Do you have any clue how little sense that makes?
Minor mez protection would be no better than none at all if the durations were longer and the mezzes easier to stack. This would be WORSE for squishies, 2 stuns hit and now you're out of commission for 30 seconds instead of 20. This makes things better how?
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Done right, they could be built in such a way that tanks and scrappers would need assistance more against those mezzers while not extremely affecting squishies. It would create a boundary situation where the developers could plan around +18 magnitude stuns on the tanks (that might suppress his toggles for a few seconds) while it might only hit the squishies for +3 at times and only stunning them *also* for a few seconds. |
Tank on a full team is doing his job, taking the agro of 17 mobs at once. Mag 18 stun lands and suppresses his toggles.
That tank is now incapable of doing his job, which is to keep those mezzes from ever being aimed at the squishies. Once the tank's taunt aura drops, where do you think those mobs will be aiming their aggression? Yup, you guessed it, right at the squishies. Now the defender is held and can't use Clear Mind (or whatever) on the tank. The tank has mezzes stacked on him and can't maintain agro control.
You just created a teamwipe situation that currently would never happen. With the tank's toggles suppressed he is taking full damage from everything that hits, and since he has a lot of things pissed at him...that's a LOT of damage.
Now your tank's dead, your defender is held, the controller is probably running for their life, and the blaster probably bought it within seconds of the tank losing agro.
Please explain to me how this would be preferable to the current state of things.
Your argument fails to be convincing on an epic scale.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
In all fairness, your Emp/Energy Defender does have a 100% knockback power, Power Push. Having said that though, without also having a hard control power available to use as well, I would not want to use that combo to solo at all.
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Power push is not 100%. It wasnt last night at least. And to be fair, I never intended to solo that emp, and didnt.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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what hard control does my fir/fire blaster have. I missed that on the power selection page. Ring of fire is a immob, not a hold.
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Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
I'd like to address this red herring claim of melee AT's not needing their status protection. It comes down to two very simple points.
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Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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Originally Posted by hedgehog_NA
what hard control does my fir/fire blaster have. I missed that on the power selection page. Ring of fire is a immob, not a hold.
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Ooooooh, but you do. It is called damage. I suggest you check out blaster powers. Did you know they have holds (ice/ice can have 3 between primary and secondary), disorients, KB, KD, sleep, stun? You are telling me those are not controls?
You picked a primary and secondary that has damage/DoT as its "controls". A fair trade.
I wonder what hard controls you would have had if you went fire/EM?
Edit: Keep going ClawsandEffect - agreeing with your posts.
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well seeing as how he never said hard control in his post but that is what you want to hear, and you didnt mention what lv your fire/fire blaster is, i'll assume it is lv 50, you have flash freeze in cold mastery, shocking bolt in electrical mastery, char in flame mastery, repulsion field and repulsion bomb in force mastery and cryo freeze ray and sleep grenade in munitions mastery. anything else?
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Originally Posted by hedgehog_NA
what hard control does my fir/fire blaster have. I missed that on the power selection page. Ring of fire is a immob, not a hold.
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Wait, damage is a hard control? Doesn't that mean every Scrapper set has hard control then? Because no Scrapper set lacks in damage output.
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Originally Posted by PennyPA
Ooooooh, but you do. It is called damage. I suggest you check out blaster powers. Did you know they have holds (ice/ice can have 3 between primary and secondary), disorients, KB, KD, sleep, stun? You are telling me those are not controls?
You picked a primary and secondary that has damage/DoT as its "controls". A fair trade. |
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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obviously futuriass and hedgehog missed this when i posted it earlier so i will quote it for them.