Mezz Protection for All!
By
AlienOne,
Posted on: 2009-09-17 24:18 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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People who complain about mez in the PvE game (not talking about you specifically, just a general statement) had a point under the pre-I13 mez rules where a mez would drop all your toggles. Toggle-heavy squishies or ATs that lacked mez protection but relied on toggles for survivability (see Khelds) got the short end of the stick, especially in a game where micro-mezzes (Crey and KoA are the most suspect groups here) in the form of sleeps or very short-duration holds caused the huge annoyance of having to retoggle everything.|
Originally Posted by Futurias
For a scrapper, a +2 or +3 boss is usually just 'doing normal' while against a blaster, that is probably death... all because he can't actually attack with most of his powers.
That's why I hate toggle suppression as currently implemented. You take your character who can't respond and suppress all of his good resistances and defenses. Even on a tank, that hurts. For a squishy that has lower hitpoints and suddenly can't A) attack B) run away and C) is now taking an extreme extra amount of damage it's not a good design decision. Toggle suppression should have just been changed so that you were held but your non-offensive toggles stayed up and your offensive toggles were suppressed. |
Given the current PvE mez and toggle rules, people needn't complain about micro-mezzes anymore, and standard mezzes are just a small hurdle that's easily overcome with a Break Free or two. If you don't regularly carry them when you know you're going to be facing mezzing enemies, then you probably deserve whatever debt you end up getting. Inspiration management's not just a PvP skill.
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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Using an exaggerated example to try and make your point only makes the argument for mez protection look even more silly than it already is. No one faced 8 enemies solo prior to issue 16 and no one will face 8 enemies solo currently unless they intentionally increase their difficulty. A basic solo spawn will consist of 3 minions or one minion and a LT. |
Originally Posted by Hertz
You're facing 8 enemies. Each has a 50% chance to hit, and a 25% chance to stun.
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| When a squishie is stunned, his output = 0, except in the case of Defiance. No buffs, no holds go out, no damage, nothing. It doesn't matter how many bells and whistles a squishie has, or how low you set Tanker and Scrapper damage, if the frequency of stuns is this high. |
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| As the enemy count scales up, the probability magnifies enormously. It's like the odds of rolling a 1 on a six-sided die ... but you're rolling ten of 'em at a time. |
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| To put it another way: if Corruptors do 1000 damage and Brutes do 800, but Corruptors are mezzed 25% of the time, who does more for the team? |
Please keep coming up with more of these exaggerated examples to try and support your argument. They're entertaining at least.
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Does this happen that much solo?|
Originally Posted by Hertz
What am I saying? Do the math:
You're facing 8 enemies. Each has a 50% chance to hit, and a 25% chance to stun. |
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| who does more for the team? |
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| I advocate changing the volume of enemies with mezzes. Make the mezzes stronger — this won't affect the squishies one way or another, a stun is a stun — but make them less frequent. This will mean Brutes, Tankers, Scrappers, and Stalkers do occasionally have to worry about mezzes, just like everybody else, but it won't overwhelm the poor squishies who get chain-mezzed by enemies like Malta. |
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Except that mezzes have this weird tendency to hit my non-AR/Dev blaster right after he hits Aim and Build Up, and healz0rs have this weird tendency to use Defiance as an excuse not to Clear Mind me until I type "zzzzz". So, sorry, but I take exception at the notion that Blasters getting mezzed and unable to use any AoE damage powers for 10 seconds isn't a big deal.|
Originally Posted by macskull
Given the current PvE mez and toggle rules, people needn't complain about micro-mezzes anymore, and standard mezzes are just a small hurdle that's easily overcome with a Break Free or two.
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Now, being the naughty boy that I am, I guess I could fix the situation by typing "zzzzz" whenever I hit Aim and Build up whether I'm mezzed or not. It's tempting.
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Originally Posted by Futurias
Is it challenging or annoying? Why shouldn't I be able to play a bit more 'gung ho' as a defender who is normally has to play like I'm terrified of anything boss-like with mezzing?
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It's annoying is what it is. It's what the devs thought was "challenging" for a long time, and that's pretty much why tankers and scrappers find everything so easy: Things that were supposed to be "challenging" don't affect them one bit.
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And then they complain about fighting Vanguard, saying that they are too strong.
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Originally Posted by MrQuizzles
It's annoying is what it is. It's what the devs thought was "challenging" for a long time, and that's pretty much why tankers and scrappers find everything so easy: Things that were supposed to be "challenging" don't affect them one bit.
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"An army is a team. It lives, eats, sleeps, fights as a team. This individuality stuff is a bunch of BS." -General George Patton
-Lord Azazel
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... And they pay for it with mediocre damage output.
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Originally Posted by MrQuizzles
It's annoying is what it is. It's what the devs thought was "challenging" for a long time, and that's pretty much why tankers and scrappers find everything so easy: Things that were supposed to be "challenging" don't affect them one bit.
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Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
If this were a vote, my vote would be "no" to mezz protection for all.
To put in one mechanic (mez), and then deliberately dilute it across the board would seem a bit odd. If there's a problem with specific mobs (ie: 20 second stuns on Malta minions are probably overpowered), then fix those mobs.
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No absolutely not!!! Squishies need to learn to stay the hell back if they dont want to get mezzed. Seriously if everyone got mez protection then what would be the purpose of powers like clear mind? Melee folk are the only ones who should have gotten mez protection and thats because they need it more to do their jobs.
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Originally Posted by Futurias
Yeah, I know. This comes up all the time. Just give those poor squishy Blasters, Defenders, (most) Controllers, Kheldians, Corruptors and Master Minds some slightly better, consistant protection.
Now there used to be some really valid points not to. After all, PvP with Mezz Protection was very broken. But there is no more PvP Mezz Protection, just Mezz Resistance. So what is the compelling reason to not allow it anymore? So that heroes and villains can be detoggled by minions? (No, they changed that so only offensive toggles really drop.) So that bosses are a grave threat? I don't know about you guys, but my corruptor gets waxed pretty dang fast by bosses even when I can move. How is suppressing all my protections and not being able to flee more harsh than that? Now, just to be fair, I'm not advocating that everyone gets tanker-level protection. In fact, I'd just add two 'lower-tier' protection levels, built into the different ATs Primary or Secondary. Low Tier: Defenders, Corruptors, Masterminds. +2 or +3 mezz protection at best. Something to make them feel that they are better than generic minions and lts. (This is where Soldiers of Arachnos generally are, IIRC. A little bit gets rid of a lot of frustration, IMO.) Low-Mid Tier: Blasters and Kheldians. +4 or +5. For the most part, these ATs are actually a bit heavy melee so need just a bit more to survive in melee. Mid Tier: Scrappers, Brutes and Stalkers. Lives in melee, but is not the primary aggro-magnet, so needs more than those below them. High Tier: Tankers, of course. (Dwarf Form Khelds should be about here, but probably would be in this new system.) Let fun triumph over inertia! (Yes, I'm pretty sure I'll get yelled at that there is no problem, please shut up, yadda yadda yadda. Every time I personally have a problem playing one of these 'no-mezz' characters, I'll be right back here visiting.) |
Bump and Grind Bane/SoA
Kenja No Ishi Earth/Empathy Controller
Legendary Sannin Ninja/Pain Mastermind
Entoxicated Ninja/PSN Mastermind
Ninja Ryukenden Kat/WP Scrapper
Hellish Thoughts Fire/PSI Dominator
Thank You Devs for Merits!!!!
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Actually, I detest powers like Clear Mind and Increase Density. And I've got a Kinetic. They are obnoxious to apply continually (and /not/ expected to be continually applied.)|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
No absolutely not!!! Squishies need to learn to stay the hell back if they dont want to get mezzed. Seriously if everyone got mez protection then what would be the purpose of powers like clear mind? Melee folk are the only ones who should have gotten mez protection and thats because they need it more to do their jobs.
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Yet there are times such a power has to be applied lavishly so that you don't continually wipe out. So you spend a lot of your time apply a short-term buff to keep people from being mezzed.
Forcefield bubbles aren't expansive enough (a fight can easily spread out a bit too much.)
I'm sorry, the 'you are making powers useless card' does not fly in real experience.
(And I find it very, very funny that you are comparing +2 or +3 mezz protection against a power that can stack to over +50 mezz protection that *tanks* do not get. I call shenanigans.)
Still here, even after all this time!
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Scrappers have mediocre damage output? I wonder, then, what Defenders pay for with their crap damage output.
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Originally Posted by Fulmens
... And they pay for it with mediocre damage output.
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I take:|
Originally Posted by Futurias
Actually, I detest powers like Clear Mind and Increase Density. And I've got a Kinetic. They are obnoxious to apply continually (and /not/ expected to be continually applied.)
Yet there are times such a power has to be applied lavishly so that you don't continually wipe out. So you spend a lot of your time apply a short-term buff to keep people from being mezzed. Forcefield bubbles aren't expansive enough (a fight can easily spread out a bit too much.) I'm sorry, the 'you are making powers useless card' does not fly in real experience. (And I find it very, very funny that you are comparing +2 or +3 mezz protection against a power that can stack to over +50 mezz protection that *tanks* do not get. I call shenanigans.) |
I'm sorry, the 'you are making powers useless card' does not fly in real experience.
and i raise:
I'm sorry, the 'I detest powers like Clear Mind and Increase Density' does not fly in real experience.
:P
No really, I dont think the re-engineering of Dispersion Bubble, FF Generator, Clear mind, Increase Density, Sonic Heaven and what else is worth giving each and everyone Mezz protection. Effectivly removing mezzes from foes and leaving this card only in the players hands!
Everyone who think facing mezzing foes is a too hard of a challenge should maybe re-direct their gamer career to the like of Solitaire or minesweeper (althought, you can still lose easilly playing the last, to use with caution)
Going back to first principles...
It seems that the devs created a game where cooperating with other players is beneficial.
Of course, you can choose to eschew that particular avenue of play.
But.
You are also choosing to forego the benefits of said style of play.
A Defender archetype is a good example of an archetype that is less-than-ideal for solo play. Many selections from the primary powersets can not be used on the character him/her/itself.
That said, no one's stopping a Defender from going solo.
There are weaknesses, though. Like, oh, mez protection. (Among other things.)
If the problem is best described as "how do I protect myself from PvE enemies that can mez me?", the most fundamental answer seems to be: join a team. Other players can then help with the problem.
If the problem is best described as "how do I play any archetype solo, despite the weaknesses endemic to that archetype", the answer generally shouldn't be "fix all weaknesses" because that leads to homogenized (read: bland) games with little challenge.
It is better phrased as "play to the strengths of that archetype, and have a back-up plan." In the case of mez, Break Frees constitute a viable back-up plan, albeit one that generates the new conundrum of limited ability to apply in every case of being mezzed.
This is not, pointedly, a veiled statement of "you're playing it wrong." Inaugural posts are generally poor for asserting authority. 
Instead, it is the statement: "by your own choices, a consequence that demonstrates itself naturally is an inability to handle mez effectively. How do you best adjust your playstyle to that facet of the game, rather than adjust that facet of the game to your playstyle?"
tl;dr? Enjoy the challenge for what it is, and adapt.
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I basically agree with mac here. I spend quite a lot of time soloing, uh, soloable squishies, and I don't find mezzing overly problematic in general. There are a few exceptions, and they result in me avoiding certain AI "factions" almost completely with my squishies. The most dreadful of them are Malta. Their Little Sisters band, the KoA, get a nod on their bosses.|
Originally Posted by macskull
People who complain about mez in the PvE game (not talking about you specifically, just a general statement) had a point under the pre-I13 mez rules where a mez would drop all your toggles. Toggle-heavy squishies or ATs that lacked mez protection but relied on toggles for survivability (see Khelds) got the short end of the stick, especially in a game where micro-mezzes (Crey and KoA are the most suspect groups here) in the form of sleeps or very short-duration holds caused the huge annoyance of having to retoggle everything.
Given the current PvE mez and toggle rules, people needn't complain about micro-mezzes anymore, and standard mezzes are just a small hurdle that's easily overcome with a Break Free or two. If you don't regularly carry them when you know you're going to be facing mezzing enemies, then you probably deserve whatever debt you end up getting. Inspiration management's not just a PvP skill. |
The problem isn't micro-mezzes, but eternal, thou-shalt-be-stunned-at-every-possible-opportunity mezzes. The stun grenades from the LTs and, God help you, the Operations Officer and Hand of Artemis bosses are outrageous. If they can hit you, you better have a Break Free. Oh, and if it's a boss, you better have multiple Break Frees or 2nd or 3rd tier ones, because the stun can outlast a little Break Free. And now, of course, their Titans spew holds much more frequently than before - a faction known for its ability to mez the crap out of you now actually does so even more.
I like challenge. However, I don't find being overwhelmed with any one effect enjoyable, particularly when it's an effect to which I am specifically vulnerable. In my opinion, PC vulnerabilities in games should be exploited in moderation, because contstantly having something exploiting it becomes frustrating.
Of course, one can always just avoid Malta. I'm of the opinion that it's poor to shunt people away from any given content because the foes in it are much more frustrating than foes in other content, or much more frequent, or both. Others may disagree.
All that said, I think that's a problem with the specific powers the mobs have, and not with mezzes in general. I don't really support the idea that everyone needs mez protection. I'd take it in a heartbeat, but I'm greedy like that.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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You are saying 'you are playing it wrong.' You are just trying to veil the call for that in a polite, fictitious mask instead of 'go back to your corner, stupid defender, don't you dare try to complain about things that annoy you.'|
Originally Posted by D-Void
This is not, pointedly, a veiled statement of "you're playing it wrong." Inaugural posts are generally poor for asserting authority.
Instead, it is the statement: "by your own choices, a consequence that demonstrates itself naturally is an inability to handle mez effectively. How do you best adjust your playstyle to that facet of the game, rather than adjust that facet of the game to your playstyle?"tl;dr? Enjoy the challenge for what it is, and adapt. |
'You aren't supposed to play in a non-annoying way. STHU and 'learn to play, n00b.'
Total BS. Annoying things like this that exist just to annoy players is just 100% wrong, IMO.
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Originally Posted by illicity
I take:
I'm sorry, the 'you are making powers useless card' does not fly in real experience. and i raise: I'm sorry, the 'I detest powers like Clear Mind and Increase Density' does not fly in real experience. :P No really, I dont think the re-engineering of Dispersion Bubble, FF Generator, Clear mind, Increase Density, Sonic Heaven and what else is worth giving each and everyone Mezz protection. Effectivly removing mezzes from foes and leaving this card only in the players hands! Everyone who think facing mezzing foes is a too hard of a challenge should maybe re-direct their gamer career to the like of Solitaire or minesweeper (althought, you can still lose easilly playing the last, to use with caution) |
Short term click buffs suck. I get yelled at constantly that I'm not speed boosting people. I'd trade recharge enhancements on those powers for duration increasers in a heart-beat just so I'd be clicking less often. But the developers only feel that mezzing should get that bonus.
Though I wonder how hard a 'buff duration increase' enhancement would be to code?
I play (almost exclusively these days) scrappers and brutes because they don't get mezzed often.
Why play a game (or even have part of a game) that is just annoying?
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
I basically agree with mac here. I spend quite a lot of time soloing, uh, soloable squishies, and I don't find mezzing overly problematic in general. There are a few exceptions, and they result in me avoiding certain AI "factions" almost completely with my squishies. The most dreadful of them are Malta. Their Little Sisters band, the KoA, get a nod on their bosses.
The problem isn't micro-mezzes, but eternal, thou-shalt-be-stunned-at-every-possible-opportunity mezzes. The stun grenades from the LTs and, God help you, the Operations Officer and Hand of Artemis bosses are outrageous. If they can hit you, you better have a Break Free. Oh, and if it's a boss, you better have multiple Break Frees or 2nd or 3rd tier ones, because the stun can outlast a little Break Free. And now, of course, their Titans spew holds much more frequently than before - a faction known for its ability to mez the crap out of you now actually does so even more. I like challenge. However, I don't find being overwhelmed with any one effect enjoyable, particularly when it's an effect to which I am specifically vulnerable. In my opinion, PC vulnerabilities in games should be exploited in moderation, because contstantly having something exploiting it becomes frustrating. Of course, one can always just avoid Malta. I'm of the opinion that it's poor to shunt people away from any given content because the foes in it are much more frustrating than foes in other content, or much more frequent, or both. Others may disagree. All that said, I think that's a problem with the specific powers the mobs have, and not with mezzes in general. I don't really support the idea that everyone needs mez protection. I'd take it in a heartbeat, but I'm greedy like that. |
(I get the feeling the long duration stuns were supposed to be so they could stack on tankers and scrappers, possibly stunning them at times. But unfortunately, it hurts the squishies worse.)
I've played quite a few ATs into those higher levels. Mezzing does affect you, even on teams. Maybe you aren't dying, but you probably aren't helping as the scrappers, brutes and tankers are keeping everyone's attention on themselves.
But you are starting to get to that 'superfluous' point. If I'm not helping because I'm mezzed, what use to a team am I?
Still here, even after all this time!
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Glad to see that my caveat was received in the good-humored nature it was meant.|
Originally Posted by Futurias
You are saying 'you are playing it wrong.' You are just trying to veil the call for that in a polite, fictitious mask instead of 'go back to your corner, stupid defender, don't you dare try to complain about things that annoy you.'
'You aren't supposed to play in a non-annoying way. STHU and 'learn to play, n00b.' Total BS. Annoying things like this that exist just to annoy players is just 100% wrong, IMO. |
Allow me to reiterate: no, I'm not saying you're playing it wrong. I'm saying: you're choosing to play a specific way. You're seeing a problem that stems from that choice. You can either choose, then, to adjust the game or your own playstyle.
You're suggesting that the game needs changing. I'm saying: there's another side to that coin. Take the advice or leave it, but please refrain from poorly translating what I've gone to pains to keep clear.
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You're saying that he's doing it wrong.
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Originally Posted by D-Void
Allow me to reiterate: no, I'm not saying you're playing it wrong. I'm saying: you're choosing to play a specific way. You're seeing a problem that stems from that choice. You can either choose, then, to adjust the game or your own playstyle.
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Well said. Yet this seemingly simple concept seems as difficult for some to grasp as quantum particle physics.
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Originally Posted by D-Void
Going back to first principles...
It seems that the devs created a game where cooperating with other players is beneficial. Of course, you can choose to eschew that particular avenue of play. But. You are also choosing to forego the benefits of said style of play. |
And yet people don't realize that some concepts do not stay good. When CoH came out, the idea of instanced missions was new. A lot of the content was supposed to be outdoors... yet players like playing missions.
Just because it was 'originally designed' does not excuse re-looking at things and removing annoyances.
Still here, even after all this time!
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To be blunt here, he is right. If the majority of us have essentially ZERO issues dealing with status effects, using the wide array of tools available to our characters, yet you find them to be insurmountable, then I submit that the problem is not with the game, but with you. |
Originally Posted by Futurias
You are saying 'you are playing it wrong.' You are just trying to veil the call for that in a polite, fictitious mask instead of 'go back to your corner, stupid defender, don't you dare try to complain about things that annoy you.'
'You aren't supposed to play in a non-annoying way. STHU and 'learn to play, n00b.' |
In 18 months of almost daily play, the ONLY times I have ever found status effects annoying or frustrating were when I was on a scrapper dealing with a mezzing boss prior to having my status protection. Reason: Scrappers have few or no tools for proactively dealing with those effects. They rely almost solely on their status protection power. All the 'squishy' AT's have numerous ways to deal with them. Yet I was still able to deal with those bosses through the use of an already existing in-game tool: inspirations.
Heck, there is already status effect mitigation available in power pools as it is.
Combat Jumping: Immobilize
Acrobatics: Knockback & Hold
Health: Sleep
The game is not intended to be equally easy for all AT's and powerset combinations under all circumstances. Some will excel in areas where others struggle, and vice versa. Dumbing down the game and making every AT essentially the same is not an improvement.
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Except I do not feel this is the case in general. It's just the case for foe types I called out, who seem to slather a team of players in mez sauce with mez sprinkles and a side of mez broulet.|
Originally Posted by Futurias
Actually, if a archetype is under-perfoming consistently (of which I feel this problem of high level mezzing across a great many of the mobs is), that indicates a problem with archetype, not the NPCs.
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If it's not a general problem and happens primarily with certain mobs, then I categorize the mobs as the problem. Is it arguable that any amount of mez tends to decrease the contribution of non-mez-protected characters? Sure, that makes sense to me. Is it generally so severe that it's worth of broad-brush change? Not in my opinion.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
gotta love it when people blame everything under the sun but themselves for the problems they are experiencing. if only they would use the tools provided to them to overcome the problem they wouldn't be here whining like little school girls.
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I honestly wouldn't mind mezzes all that much if they weren't absolutely everywhere late game. Like I said earlier, the devs seemed to used to think it was some sort of magical switch. Give something a mez, and that made it "difficult"! |
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
gotta love it when people blame everything under the sun but themselves for the problems they are experiencing. if only they would use the tools provided to them to overcome the problem they wouldn't be here whining like little school girls.
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Do you know what would be really "difficult"? How about an enemy group where every basic attack has a chance to mez, and then make some LTs and Bosses with even more of them!
Or how about 30-second-long AoE stun grenades! That would be extremely "difficult"!
Difficult is fun, "difficult" is not.
That's not how things turned out, though. They end up being a sort of magic bullet against some characters while being completely ineffectual against others, and their density in some cases really makes it seem like the devs were being intentionally unfair against certain ATs while basically handing the others an 'I Win' button due to lack of other challenging elements. Those cases, specifically, need to be looked at and reworked in order to be a challenge to all ATs, not just the ones without mez protection.
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Originally Posted by D-Void
Allow me to reiterate: no, I'm not saying you're playing it wrong. I'm saying: you're choosing to play a specific way. You're seeing a problem that stems from that choice. You can either choose, then, to adjust the game or your own playstyle.
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Originally Posted by MrQuizzles
You're saying that he's doing it wrong.
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Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
If the majority of us have essentially ZERO issues dealing with status effects, using the wide array of tools available to our characters, yet you find them to be insurmountable, then I submit that the problem is not with the game, but with you.
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There is no right or wrong (other than exploits) way to play this game. There is just easier or more challenging. Sometimes, character concepts dictate a more challenging method of play. I have several like that.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
Mez has never been an issue for any of my characters, squishies or not.
Slows, on the other hand, are downright lethal when stacked, and BFs don't help with those!