Mezz Protection for All!
By
AlienOne,
Posted on: 2009-09-17 24:18 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
The complaint of squishy ATs not being able to solo +4/x8 missions just struck me as being very similar to complaining that your stock Jeep Wrangler can't win the Baja 1000.
A Jeep can go off road, but it takes a special vehicle to run something that difficult.
Not many toons in general can run content that difficult. It takes a specially built toon to run it with any consistency. The feats the forum scrappers pull off and report are NOT the baseline by which everything should be judged, they are outliers. Your average scrapper runs +4/X8 content no better than your average defender.
Because Bill Z's scrapper can solo at that level does not mean all scrappers can.
Just as someone soloing an STF with an Ill/Rad controller does not mean that all Ill/Rad's can.
And because Bill Z's scrapper can solo at that level certainly does not mean that everyone in the game should be able to. But you are acting as though they should.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Hell, my lvl 40-w/e sword/shield scrapper can only handle around x3. My 32 DB/DA Brute can only handle x2 comfortalby, x3 if I feel really daring. This is on +0, too.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The complaint of squishy ATs not being able to solo +4/x8 missions just struck me as being very similar to complaining that your stock Jeep Wrangler can't win the Baja 1000.
A Jeep can go off road, but it takes a special vehicle to run something that difficult. Not many toons in general can run content that difficult. It takes a specially built toon to run it with any consistency. The feats the forum scrappers pull off and report are NOT the baseline by which everything should be judged, they are outliers. Your average scrapper runs +4/X8 content no better than your average defender. Because Bill Z's scrapper can solo at that level does not mean all scrappers can. Just as someone soloing an STF with an Ill/Rad controller does not mean that all Ill/Rad's can. And because Bill Z's scrapper can solo at that level certainly does not mean that everyone in the game should be able to. But you are acting as though they should. |
Not everyone is 'uber leet and buffed'. That sure as hell isn't the norm. I know I hate it when people start getting that mixed up.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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My half-a-billion influence BS/DA can handle +0/x6....barely, and only if I'm on my game, one slip up and I'm toast. |
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
Hell, my lvl 40-w/e sword/shield scrapper can only handle around x3. My 32 DB/DA Brute can only handle x2 comfortalby, x3 if I feel really daring. This is on +0, too.
Not everyone is 'uber leet and buffed'. That sure as hell isn't the norm. I know I hate it when people start getting that mixed up. |
My Claws/Regen, who's build is probably just as expensive, struggles on +0/x3 or 4. x6 is beyond him, and x8 is a pipe dream. But he's a scrapper, so he should have no problem with that...right?
I mean, he has mez protection, which is apparently the only thing I need to be an unkillable uber-god. So...what's the problem? Mez protection is easy mode, right? Why can't my character solo on +4/x8 like the hordes of (fictional) scrappers out there doing it all day long?
Could it possibly be that....(gasp!)....maybe mez protection isn't that damned important after all?!
Nah, couldn't be, it's already been proven (eyeroll) that mez protection is all you need to do impossible things.
Yes, I'm being sarcastic, this thread deserves it by this point.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Silly Scrappers. Roll a few Brutes. I can take on +3/x8 without dying (+4/x8 can result in a few hosp trips depending on the enemy) with my Fire/SR and SS/WP. 
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So you're saying that if squishies got a little mez protection, they'd still be. . . squishy? That an extra mag or 2 of mez protection wouldn't turn them into unstoppable gods of death automatically able to solo AV's in +4/8 missions and suck all the challenge out of the game? That all it would do would be to block the occasional annoyance of having a minion get a lucky shot and stun you out of your toggle debuffs, which turn off completely instead of suppressing like armor toggles do, and often have inconvenient recharges if you have to wait on them in the middle of a fight?|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
My half-a-billion influence BS/DA can handle +0/x6....barely, and only if I'm on my game, one slip up and I'm toast.
My Claws/Regen, who's build is probably just as expensive, struggles on +0/x3 or 4. x6 is beyond him, and x8 is a pipe dream. But he's a scrapper, so he should have no problem with that...right? I mean, he has mez protection, which is apparently the only thing I need to be an unkillable uber-god. So...what's the problem? Mez protection is easy mode, right? Why can't my character solo on +4/x8 like the hordes of (fictional) scrappers out there doing it all day long? Could it possibly be that....(gasp!)....maybe mez protection isn't that damned important after all?! Nah, couldn't be, it's already been proven (eyeroll) that mez protection is all you need to do impossible things. Yes, I'm being sarcastic, this thread deserves it by this point. |
Just checking.
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
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Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
A point, like many others in this thread, that some here cannot grasp. My fire/rad controller and AR blaster are immensely faster at defeating large enemy groups than any of my scrappers, whether solo or teamed.
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It depends on the group. I have seen tanks solo spawns of entirely +3 bosses and do so at a very effective speed. Much faster than any squishy ever could.
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Considering there are no spawns consisting of only +3 bosses, I consider this an irrelevant point. |
Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
It depends on the group. I have seen tanks solo spawns of entirely +3 bosses and do so at a very effective speed. Much faster than any squishy ever could. |
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Nope. Mag 2 mez protection would be worse than none. It would have no effect since most standard mezzes are at least mag 3, so you'd just be pissed about having mez protection that doesn't do squat. |
Originally Posted by Jabbrwock
So you're saying that if squishies got a little mez protection, they'd still be. . . squishy? That an extra mag or 2 of mez protection wouldn't turn them into unstoppable gods of death automatically able to solo AV's in +4/8 missions and suck all the challenge out of the game? That all it would do would be to block the occasional annoyance of having a minion get a lucky shot and stun you out of your toggle debuffs, which turn off completely instead of suppressing like armor toggles do, and often have inconvenient recharges if you have to wait on them in the middle of a fight?
Just checking. |
If squishies actually got enough mez protection to make a difference, then yes they would be overpowered. There is plenty of evidence that the devs seem to agree with that assessment. If they didn't, why don't squishies have it already?
Besides, as I already stated, most squishies already have mez protection.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Wolf Spider Armor is only MAG2, and I've never seen my VEAT be mezzed solo at lvl16/18 (I honestly forgot what level she is). I think everyone/thing has innate MAG1 protection. (It's why minions don't get stunned by MAG1 effects.)
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Nope. Mag 2 mez protection would be worse than none. It would have no effect since most standard mezzes are at least mag 3, so you'd just be pissed about having mez protection that doesn't do squat.
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BLA ::Looks over her glasses::|
Originally Posted by Panzerwaffen
Considering there are no spawns consisting of only +3 bosses, I consider this an irrelevant point.
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IIRC correctly you were there on that boss challenge map. Heru-ur's Shield/Mace tank was laying waste to it and neither one of our toons could even engage. I finally managed to get my Archer to hold her own only by popping Eye of the magus, Geas of the kind ones, and followed up with surge of power. Even then after they crashed I got caught by an incoming ambush.
The point was just because you have a map and an AT/Powerset it doesnt mean much. It really doesn't have much bearing on the issue if squishies can do better than melees on spawns that don't mezz.
What I see as the argument and point of debate here is are the ATs ballanced against themselves.
Do I think squishies should get mezz protection ? Well it would be nice if a mezz werent such painful kryptonite for them. I always felt that when toggle suppression was put in making the offensive toggles drop was wrong. That is something that goes across the board squishy or melee.
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Honestly, there's not a whole lot of mez that early in the game. |
Originally Posted by Sarrate
Wolf Spider Armor is only MAG2, and I've never seen my VEAT be mezzed solo at lvl16/18 (I honestly forgot what level she is). I think everyone/thing has innate MAG1 protection. (It's why minions don't get stunned by MAG1 effects.)
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My blasters and corruptors stay pretty much mez-free that early too, with mag 0 protection.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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And you're missing where most of the rest of us are coming from.|
Originally Posted by B_L_Angel
I think you are really missing where I am coming from here.
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| Yes its very possible to build a squishy to deal with particular circumstances well. The famous/infamous Fire/Kin with smash lethal cap is a great example. On a council map as you describe the mezzes can't hit you. On a Rikti map that fire/kin doesnt do so well. |
I also have a Controller that doesn't have a problem with Rikti or the Council. He's not even Fire/Kin. He's an Illusion/FF. Not very FotM, but he deals with most everything well.
I haven't been playing my Defenders all that much lately, so I don't have one in the 40s yet. But, my Rad/Energy doesn't have a lot of problems dealing with mezzers either. And he's on 0/x4 at the moment.
My PB is on 0/x8 and clears an entire map with maybe one or 2 defeats, that have nothing to do with being mezzed. Of course, she's not very high a level either.
The only enemies that give my Dominators problems are the one that will not mez at all. (I'm looking at you Arachnos Huntsmen)
My Mastermind is so rarely mezzed that I don't even carry breakfrees. Her bots keep her alive very well. Except when she is stupid and gets in over her head fighting mroe that even her bots can handle. (at high challenge levels, mind you.)
I haven't played many Corruptors, so no comment from me there.
My Warshade is in the same boat as my PB, except he can take on more at once, as long as they leave a corpse. No, he doesn't have Stamina and he does just fine without it.
Yes, much anecdotal evidence to refute the anecdotal evidence some have used to advocate un-needed mez protection for squishies.
Oh, and it is very rare for 0/x1 to have more than 3 minions or a Lt and a minion, or a lone boss in the spawn. If a single Hero/villain character can not defeat a 0/x1 spawn, then they really should not be playing at a higher difficulty.
Additional note: I suppose that whoever left the rep comment "different from you how?" thinks that I'm putting my fingers in my ears as well. You mighht try actually reading the entire thread again. You will see that there have been numerous methods of dealing with mezzing enemies listed, and One person in particular ignores each and every one of them, yet sstill complains that the he can not defeat a single spawn without prlifigate use of inpirations for each and every combat that he is in. when, I might add, most every other poster on the thread has stated that they have zero problems fighting a spawn set for +0/x1 difficulty.
Reading comprehension for the loss on your part, pal.
And for those who can't beat a spawn on the easiest setting...
Learn! to! play!
Yes, agressive stupidity irritates me.
There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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actually i have a **** build on my fire/kin right now. in fact i have to do a respec and get rid of the 25 common io's i have in him. and if you are talking smash/lethal resistance then the mezzes CAN hit you. resistance means you don't take as much damage where as defense means things hit you less. so my half *** built fire/kin takes on maps full of +2/x8 with no problem. and that is getting right into the middle of the mob where i am more likely to be hit by the lt's and bosses that have MA that mezzes. i still don't see why squishies would need mez protection. i certainly don't with the half *** build i have right now. the key is tactics and some inspirations if you need them. but most people should not be trying to do things they know for certain their toon can't handle. again that is not the games fault or anyone elses but the player of the toon.| Yes its very possible to build a squishy to deal with particular circumstances well. The famous/infamous Fire/Kin with smash lethal cap is a great example. On a council map as you describe the mezzes can't hit you. On a Rikti map that fire/kin doesnt do so well. |
in fact, here's another prime example of squishies not needing mez protection for ya. i have a fire/cold corruptor half *** built also. when rikti head gunmen were the rage to set up the massive ambush in the back room in the AE, i solo'd those set for 6 people with no problem. maybe a death or 2 a run but that was from incomming damage not being mezzed. i very rarely got mezzed on him.
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If it wasn't clear that post was about defense not resistance.|
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
actually i have a **** build on my fire/kin right now. in fact i have to do a respec and get rid of the 25 common io's i have in him. and if you are talking smash/lethal resistance then the mezzes CAN hit you. resistance means you don't take as much damage where as defense means things hit you less. so my half *** built fire/kin takes on maps full of +2/x8 with no problem. and that is getting right into the middle of the mob where i am more likely to be hit by the lt's and bosses that have MA that mezzes. i still don't see why squishies would need mez protection. i certainly don't with the half *** build i have right now. the key is tactics and some inspirations if you need them. but most people should not be trying to do things they know for certain their toon can't handle. again that is not the games fault or anyone elses but the player of the toon.
in fact, here's another prime example of squishies not needing mez protection for ya. i have a fire/cold corruptor half *** built also. when rikti head gunmen were the rage to set up the massive ambush in the back room in the AE, i solo'd those set for 6 people with no problem. maybe a death or 2 a run but that was from incomming damage not being mezzed. i very rarely got mezzed on him. |
I have some numbers from herostats and running squishies solo through various maps but there is a simpler way to frame the question.
If Squishies are just fine without mezz protection against holds and stuns would they be just fine without the ability to gain knockback protection ?
If Squishies should be able to gain KB protection they should be able to gain other mezz protection. If you feel giving them KB protection is wrong and spoils the game well then your position is at least consistent.
Now back on track my position was not that squishies needed more protection as much as melee toons could do with the less and that it would improve the overall game experience. If you are going to reply to me please reply to my actual positions.
Heh. That would be a way to ramp up the desire for Set IOs no one wants. Add +4 Mag protection to either stun or hold. Make sure its in the least wanted ranged attack or hold.
Still here, even after all this time!
Circular arguement: Is circular
Change to Mez status quo: Not happening
Above statement proved false: will eat one of my hats
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Believe it or not, this I'd actually like because it gives people more options. I'd like to actually propose that the +4 mez protection increase be divided into 3 (or 4) sets instead of just lumped into one set so that each set would contribute to the complete bonus and the Devs can elevate the desire for the previously unwanted sets.
Originally Posted by Futurias
Heh. That would be a way to ramp up the desire for Set IOs no one wants. Add +4 Mag protection to either stun or hold. Make sure its in the least wanted ranged attack or hold.
I believe that a Kheldian Gold Standard should be based on SO's, and for anything above that... there's Platinum!
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
Save Ms. Liberty (#5349) � Augmenting Peacebringers � The Umbra Illuminati
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k i'll respond to your idea that melee needs less:| Now back on track my position was not that squishies needed more protection as much as melee toons could do with the less and that it would improve the overall game experience. |
NO THEY DON'T. unless while on a team, on your squishy, you want to be huggin the floor all the time. it is the job of the melee toons to keep the aggro off the squishies so they can do what they need to. take away even some mez protection and you would end up with the same situation as if melee had none at all. believe me when i say this would not improve the overall game experience.
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We've already seen that the devs want melees to rely on support classes for survival in teams, at least to an extent. That was in large part what the global defense nerf and ED were about. The problem with his proposal is not that it makes melees useless in teams, it's that support classes can't universally provide the needed mez protection, which would further marginalize some of the less popular buff/debuff sets.|
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
k i'll respond to your idea that melee needs less:
NO THEY DON'T. unless while on a team, on your squishy, you want to be huggin the floor all the time. it is the job of the melee toons to keep the aggro off the squishies so they can do what they need to. take away even some mez protection and you would end up with the same situation as if melee had none at all. believe me when i say this would not improve the overall game experience. |
With the current state of buff/debuff sets, melees absolutely need high mez protection. I'm not too thrilled with melee characters getting to essentially remove mezzes from the game entirely while solo, when squishies have mez avoidance as, generally, the number 1 priority for any successful solo tactic, but the state of current power sets means that's the way its gotta be. It's not that making melees rely on external buffs to survive the kind of mezzes that fly around in big teams is a terrible idea, it's that it's an impractical idea.
My stance: I'd like to see a bit of mez protection on squishies, but I'm not gonna get upset if I don't see it. I don't think it would break the game, but I don't think that its absence breaks the game either.
TEH WERDZ ON SKREEN HURTZ MI BRANE!
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And they would still be least wanted because they are NOT NEEDED. |
Originally Posted by Futurias
Heh. That would be a way to ramp up the desire for Set IOs no one wants. Add +4 Mag protection to either stun or hold. Make sure its in the least wanted ranged attack or hold.
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Like so many in this thread have stated, this game is already easy enough and the so-called squishies have all the tools and options to deal with mobs to defeat them.
This thread has really gone to a ridiculous point now.
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Originally Posted by Futurias
Heh. That would be a way to ramp up the desire for Set IOs no one wants. Add +4 Mag protection to either stun or hold. Make sure its in the least wanted ranged attack or hold.
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I noticed you haven't tried to "refute" any posts that were in direct response to your previous claims.
So I decided to try and duplicate my test against malta. The only major difference is that I was testing on the first door mission in the Future Threat Arc, which meant I was fighting a similar spread of enemies over similar maps, so this is a slightly better test than yesterday's was.
DB/SR/Body Scrapper: Wow, that was easy. I would like people to remember, however, that she regenerates about 19 HP/sec, has a recovery rate of 4. something or other, and has 46% defense to all positions. I think that if this proves anything that defense scrappers need less mez resistance than resist sets. But that's neither here nor there. There was no trouble - I did notice, however, that I was dodging a LOT of attacks that would do mez, and if I had been on a dark scrapper without mez protection, I would have died several times over because I would have been perma stunned. A major reason I had less trouble than yesterday was also that malta have nothing that cuts through my defense, meaning no unpositioned attacks like carnies have.
Energy/Electric/electric Blaster: That was...easy. I came closer to death a couple of times, but didn't actually spend that much time mezzed. Mostly because I was knocking everyone on their butts the entire mission and they couldn't get to me. Lieutenant Gunslingers are a joke, and I treated them as such, Sappers weren't actually that much of a problem, and I nuked the final spawn while I had Surge of Power up which was overkill, but fun.
Earth/Storm/Earth Controller: That was the easiest out of all of them. I don't think I spent a moment mezzed. anyway, I got this far, then realized I was missing 2xp and then said, $%*@ this $#@$, I'm going to go level my scrapper. Seriously, this was easy. Really really easy. I don't think I spent a moment mezzed.
"Be a beacon?"
Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
Bree the Barricade: lvl 50 Stone/Axe
Last Chance for Eden: lvl 50 Fire/Kin
Myra the Grey: lvl 50 Bots/Traps
1 Minute to Midnight lvl 50 Spines/DA
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I seriously doubt that if the Developers added +4 Mag protection in some of the least wanted sets that they wouldn't become some of the most highly desired sets for the squishies.|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
And they would still be least wanted because they are NOT NEEDED.
Like so many in this thread have stated, this game is already easy enough and the so-called squishies have all the tools and options to deal with mobs to defeat them. This thread has really gone to a ridiculous point now. |
Please, do keep screaming that the sky is green and the moon is made of cheese. It's rather humorous.
Still here, even after all this time!
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I get dibs on yelling 'Hypocrisy'.
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Originally Posted by Futurias
Please, do keep screaming that the sky is green and the moon is made of cheese. It's rather humorous.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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A mostly single target scrapper can solo huge mobs, but it takes a long time.
Same with tanks, but it takes even longer.