Mezz Protection for All!
By
AlienOne,
Posted on: 2009-09-17 24:18 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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That's an absolutely terrible analogy. But if you hate it so much, you should be doing something else. No point in forcing yourself to do something that isn't fun.|
Originally Posted by Futurias
I could also continue to beat my forehead against at wall because that's the only way that some people can knock. That doesn't mean that should be the preferred way. :/
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If you want a ranged character who can deal with mez no problem at least most of the time (if not all the time), may I suggest:
1) Forcefield Defender
2) Forcefield Mastermind
3) Forcefield Controller
4) Traps Defender
5) Traps Mastermind
6) Traps Corruptor
7) Sonic Defender
8) Sonic Controller
9) Sonic Corruptor
10) Peacebringer
11) Warshade
12) Crab Spider
13) Fortunata
14) Any good Defender who has heavy debuffs
15) Any good MM who can stand behind good pets
16) Any good Controller who can not only mez enemies but debuff them
17) Any good Corruptor who has heavy debuffs
18) Any good Dominator who can not only mez enemies but has Domination protection
19) Any good Blaster of any kind
20) Another game
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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and this is the statement that shows you know nothing of mezzes. give squishies a little mez then up the mez capability of the enemies. you do realize that by doing this it trivializes the mez protection you just gave squishies correct?| Heck, I even stated that if they gave a little mezz protection at the bottom (ie. squishies that have none now) they could actually increase some of the effects of mezzing without crushing the squishies and even make things slightly challenging for people that have high amounts |
give up already. the devs will NEVER change the game to suit 1 or 2 people who have decided not to change their tactics when playing on squishy toons.
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Yes, he is. He's been shown a dozen different methods of dealing with mezzing enemies that don't include inspirations, yet he puts his fingers in his ears and screams lalala because he wants everyone else to play his way.
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Originally Posted by Dispari
Are you really so unwilling to alter your tactics that you think we should change how stuff works just so you can keep playing "your way?"
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There I was between a rock and a hard place. Then I thought, "What am I doing on this side of the rock?"
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"Dozen of different methods?"|
Originally Posted by Twisted Toon
Yes, he is. He's been shown a dozen different methods of dealing with mezzing enemies that don't include inspirations, yet he puts his fingers in his ears and screams lalala because he wants everyone else to play his way.
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I've heard 'shut up and team.' 'Depend on inspirations' and 'Pre-emptive mezzing'.
I've even refuted some of them. Using inspirations heavily to bypass or overcome the issue is, as I've noted, usually an indication of an actual issue. Not a solution.
I even turned the question on its head (removing Mezz protection solo) and got very incoherent responses. All the way from 'they have to have it to function' and 'no one needs mezz protection to solo really.'
Never did get a good response if it was 'fair' for squishies to not have mezz protection, why shouldn't it be 'fair' for non-squishies to have the same level of challenge.
That pretty much boiled down to 'how dare you challenge my scrapper the same way that stupid defenders are challenged!' And that they've always had it, so don't you dare change it.
Still here, even after all this time!
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You're not being honest here and are actually proving the above poster correct.|
Originally Posted by Futurias
Never did get a good response if it was 'fair' for squishies to not have mezz protection, why shouldn't it be 'fair' for non-squishies to have the same level of challenge.
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I posted a host of information from each AT that doesn't have mezz protection and how they can CURRENTLY deal with mezz.
Each AT has a method to deal with mezz OUTSIDE of inspirations. You've been told this and shown this but you continue to ignore the responses. There have also been many responses (including one from me) that detail why Melee ATs should have mezz built into their shields. Yet you've ignored or "refuted" these responses. I quoted refuted since your definition of refute is "to ignore or deflect or avoid."
Lastly, this really isn't as important as you claim Futurias. I mean, even my wife thinks you're being melodramatic and that's saying something.
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Originally Posted by Futurias
"Dozen of different methods?"
I've heard 'shut up and team.' 'Depend on inspirations' and 'Pre-emptive mezzing'. I've even refuted some of them. Using inspirations heavily to bypass or overcome the issue is, as I've noted, usually an indication of an actual issue. Not a solution. I even turned the question on its head (removing Mezz protection solo) and got very incoherent responses. All the way from 'they have to have it to function' and 'no one needs mezz protection to solo really.' Never did get a good response if it was 'fair' for squishies to not have mezz protection, why shouldn't it be 'fair' for non-squishies to have the same level of challenge. That pretty much boiled down to 'how dare you challenge my scrapper the same way that stupid defenders are challenged!' And that they've always had it, so don't you dare change it. |
Yes, it IS fair for squishies to not have mez protection, they have other ways of dealing with it. There are a very small number of powerset combinations that have no way at all of dealing with a mez, and once you include epic pools, that number reduces to 0. Every AT has at least one mez power in a pool that is available to them.
Melee characters cannot prevent mezzes from targeting them in most cases until they get epic pools. Several have melee range mez effects, but that does not prevent them from being targeted with a mez from outside their range.
Therefore, they get mez protection to make up for their lack of ability to avoid it.
No ability to avoid = mez protection. Ability to avoid = no mez protection. I really don't see why that logic is so hard to understand.
If you really want squishies to get mez protection, put them in the same boat as melee ATs and take away their ability to mez at range until level 41. That's where the balance has been struck, and if you want to change that balance, you need to equalize it. The devs have apparently deemed that the ability to mez at range and protection form mezzes combined is not balanced with the rest of the game. Even the sets that DO give you mez protection (FF and Sonic) don't have much in the way of other useful powers that increase your combat effectiveness.
On standard difficulty (which is what the game is balanced around) any squishie can solo with a minimum of difficulty. Don't be upset because your defender can't solo x8 missions, they were never meant to. Hell, the only melee characters that can do it easily are insanely expensive high end builds. Out of all my scrappers, I have exactly ONE that can solo on that high of a difficulty, and he's not consistent in it. If I'm not paying attention I die just as quickly as anything else. I also spent over half a biliion influence on his build. There are controllers that can do so easily, and my Rad/Sonic defender solos better than most of my melee toons, slower, but very safely.
All ATs are not equal at all things, nor should they be. High end scrapper builds can solo AVs. There are a number of squishy ATs and powersets that can do the same with much less of an investment. Those same squishy ATs and powersets also add much more to a team than a scrapper ever will.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
This thread has been very amusing 
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Ok so three different methods, all of which are perfectly valid.|
Originally Posted by Futurias
"Dozen of different methods?"
I've heard 'shut up and team.' 'Depend on inspirations' and 'Pre-emptive mezzing'. |
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Originally Posted by Futurias
I've even refuted some of them. Using inspirations heavily to bypass or overcome the issue is, as I've noted, usually an indication of an actual issue. Not a solution.
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Originally Posted by Futurias
I even turned the question on its head (removing Mezz protection solo) and got very incoherent responses. All the way from 'they have to have it to function' and 'no one needs mezz protection to solo really.'
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Melee AT's do need it, because they have to get in close to get that first hit in. They also need more than mag 3 because in team situations they get hit with more mez.
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Originally Posted by Futurias
Never did get a good response if it was 'fair' for squishies to not have mezz protection, why shouldn't it be 'fair' for non-squishies to have the same level of challenge.
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Originally Posted by Futurias
That pretty much boiled down to 'how dare you challenge my scrapper the same way that stupid defenders are challenged!' And that they've always had it, so don't you dare change it.
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There is nothing I have written here that hasn't been written 10 times already by other people, and you have taken words out of context or just ignored the vast majority of certain posts.
For me a solo spawn is 3 minions, or 1 minion 1 lt, or 1 boss. The minions and lt's can be mezzed in one application, the boss is the only thing that is harder. But those boss spawns can not only be easily avoided with a simple option, but they only ever occur at the end of missions anyway and are meant to be a challenge. You just need to adapt and move on rather than want to press the same 3 buttons for every spawn.
Also stop using Malta as your examples, most people here would (and have) agreed that Malta are a problem, they are probably the least fought enemy in the game because of all the mez they throw around. Rikti are the next mez heavy group and you rarely get more than 1 mezzer in a solo spawn. Then carnies are next and again you rarely get more than 1 mezzer.
I remember you from the Kheldian boards complaining about wanting mez protection in human form and disagreed with you there too, it is not the games fault if you don't want to use the tools at your disposal to deal with the challenges in the game.
PS: How little or how much challenge presented by some AT's is irrelevant, asking them all to be brought down to the lowest common denominator will get you hated, asking for everything else to be brought up to match will make the game boring. Variety is fun, embrace the different challenges from different AT's and know that you are not meant to like them all.
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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Maybe situational mez protection is the answer.On a team the melee toons get it, solo they dont. Challenge restored.
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Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
Having played an FF controller on LGTF, and a traps defender on LGTF, the only thing that ever happens to me is that I get slept, which makes sense, I have a sleep hole. What doesn't happen? I don't get stunned, held, or immoblized. That's with mag 4 protection. Mag 4 (and probably mag 3) is enough to deal with the majority of the mez in a solo situation. I can only think of a handful on enemies that overwhelm it and the ones that do tend to overwhelm scrapper protection as well.
And the scrapper and the tanker? They're expected in a team situation to absorb something like 95% of the damage between them AND they're accompanying mezzes. That's why their mez protection is so high. |
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
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Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
and this is the statement that shows you know nothing of mezzes. give squishies a little mez then up the mez capability of the enemies. you do realize that by doing this it trivializes the mez protection you just gave squishies correct?
give up already. the devs will NEVER change the game to suit 1 or 2 people who have decided not to change their tactics when playing on squishy toons. |
Can we question the status quo without being heretics? Or are you part of the pitchfork and torches crowd?
I dont expect them to run out and change the game to suit me. But discussing it does not include calling people names and attacking their intelligence. The game is too easy for some, they need to be nerfed to bring them down to the level of others. At least that is what we were told when EM was nerfed into the stone age.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
I just don't like how heavily-used mezzes are in high level enemy groups in order to make things "difficult". Mezzes are over-used while other methods, like debuffs and buffs and synergistic combos, are under-used.
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Why can't they just use breakfrees or get it from their teammates? Sheesh, it's not hard. Maybe they should try adapting their playstyle and learning that life is tough and they won't get what they want. Perhaps they could just go for the mezzer first, that fixes everything. Maybe I'm just repeating what's already been said.
| Melee AT's do need it, because they have to get in close to get that first hit in. They also need more than mag 3 because in team situations they get hit with more mez. |
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Then scrappers and tankers who aren't defense (as opposed to resist ro regen based) based in this system become completely neutered solo. Especially scrappers go from strong solo to very weak solo because they don't have two powersets with tools to deal with mezzing opponents. So now we have a situation where squishies who all usually do much better than scrappers on a team because of their multiplicative effect, or just because they do SO much more damage (blasters) solo just as well as scrappers do, and in many cases a damn sight better.|
Originally Posted by hedgehog_NA
Maybe situational mez protection is the answer.On a team the melee toons get it, solo they dont. Challenge restored.
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How is that balanced?
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Blue Mourning: lvl. 50 Katana/DA
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You're not repeating but being rather obtuse. If my Brute had access Radiation Emission powerset, etc then I probably wouldn't see a need for Mezz protection. But since I have to run into melee in order to utilize my Primary fully, this subjects me to all manners of mezz attacks even as I close in to the critters. |
Originally Posted by MrQuizzles
I just don't like how heavily-used mezzes are in high level enemy groups in order to make things "difficult". Mezzes are over-used while other methods, like debuffs and buffs and synergistic combos, are under-used.
Why can't they just use breakfrees or get it from their teammates? Sheesh, it's not hard. Maybe they should try adapting their playstyle and learning that life is tough and they won't get what they want. Perhaps they could just go for the mezzer first, that fixes everything. Maybe I'm just repeating what's already been said. |
In other words, every AT that doesn't have mezz protection has the ability to avoid being mezzed.
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It isnt that hard. On a team your scrapper gets mez protection. Solo, he get none or maybe a lesser level. The same way buffs for kheldians work. My scrappers have plenty of ways of dealing with mezzers tyvm. Or, while solo, make some of those buffs that only work on team members, work on self. That way my emp can actually use some of that primary effectively. And that multiplicative effect works on the rest of the team. Since my cold defender cant shield herself, they dont do diddly squat for me.|
Originally Posted by Blue_Mourning
Then scrappers and tankers who aren't defense (as opposed to resist ro regen based) based in this system become completely neutered solo. Especially scrappers go from strong solo to very weak solo because they don't have two powersets with tools to deal with mezzing opponents. So now we have a situation where squishies who all usually do much better than scrappers on a team because of their multiplicative effect, or just because they do SO much more damage (blasters) solo just as well as scrappers do, and in many cases a damn sight better.
How is that balanced? |
I also wouldnt mind seeing the aggro cap be increased for teamed tanks. Maybe some dynamics that benefit teamed toons over solo toons.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
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You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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What if both of those things? What if you had Rad Emissions yet still had to run into melee?|
Originally Posted by Clouded
You're not repeating but being rather obtuse. If my Brute had access Radiation Emission powerset, etc then I probably wouldn't see a need for Mezz protection. But since I have to run into melee in order to utilize my Primary fully, this subjects me to all manners of mezz attacks even as I close in to the critters.
In other words, every AT that doesn't have mezz protection has the ability to avoid being mezzed. |
Many Defenders/Corruptors live in melee, anyways. It's also worth noting that I'd love a Melee/Debuff AT.
Mostly, though, I just wish that enemies had been made "difficult" through other means. That's really all I want.
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Originally Posted by MrQuizzles
What if both of those things? What if you had Rad Emissions yet still had to run into melee?
Many Defenders/Corruptors live in melee, anyways. It's also worth noting that I'd love a Melee/Debuff AT. Mostly, though, I just wish that enemies had been made "difficult" through other means. That's really all I want. |
That might make the scrappers and brutes among us feel no quite so uber. The game wouldnt be so easy for them and we cant have that.
Lots of 50's yada yada. still finding fun things to do.
Cthulhu loves you, better start running
I�! I�! Gg�gorsch�a�bha egurtsa�ar�ug d� Dalhor! Cthluhu fthagn! Cthluhu fthagn!
You are in a maze of twisty little passages
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I have a Dark/Sonic Def, Cold/Ice Def, Ice/Rad Contr, Fire/Fire Blaster and Earth/Fire Dom that all live in melee. Guess what? I lay down my debuffs first and/or let the melee ATs get the aggro before I let loose. |
Originally Posted by MrQuizzles
What if both of those things? What if you had Rad Emissions yet still had to run into melee?
Many Defenders/Corruptors live in melee, anyways. It's also worth noting that I'd love a Melee/Debuff AT. |
I believe that's called WAI.
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That made me laugh |
Originally Posted by MrQuizzles
I just don't like how heavily-used mezzes are in high level enemy groups in order to make things "difficult". Mezzes are over-used while other methods, like debuffs and buffs and synergistic combos, are under-used.
Why can't they just use breakfrees or get it from their teammates? Sheesh, it's not hard. Maybe they should try adapting their playstyle and learning that life is tough and they won't get what they want. Perhaps they could just go for the mezzer first, that fixes everything. Maybe I'm just repeating what's already been said. |
Especially after seeing posts where people complained that Melee ATs didn't have good damage output (If a scrapper can take out 2 AVs at once there is no complaining about damage output).
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Wait, you mean you don't act as a tank for your team?|
Originally Posted by Clouded
I have a Dark/Sonic Def, Cold/Ice Def, Ice/Rad Contr, Fire/Fire Blaster and Earth/Fire Dom that all live in melee. Guess what? I lay down my debuffs first and/or let the melee ATs get the aggro before I let loose.
I believe that's called WAI. |
WHAT CRAZY WORLD IS THIS?
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Like what? Like enemies with autohit -RES and -DEF powers, powers that do -regen, stacking high mag mez, enemies who highly resist your damage type, PBAoE -ToHit powers, fleeing enemies, enemies who stay at range, enemies who sap endurance?|
Originally Posted by MrQuizzles
Mostly, though, I just wish that enemies had been made "difficult" through other means. That's really all I want.
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Because those are all "difficulties" that NPCs can and do have, which are more painful to melees than ranged units who have ways to avoid, prevent, or lessen their effects.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Dispari has more than enough credability, and certainly doesn't need to borrow any from you.
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ok. im going to say this as clearly as possible for the 3 that still don't get how mezzes and melee don't work.
A: tank/scrapper/brute runs in and takes aggro for entire team.
B: tank/scrapper/brute is hit with all the mezzes.
C: blasters/defenders/controllers/corruptors/dominators are free to do their thing to aggro'd mob.
D: mob dies, everyone lives. good times.
now take away tank/scrapper mez protection/resistance:
A: tank/scrapper/brute runs in to take aggro for the entire team.
B: tank/scrapper/brute ends up out of commission due to mezzes.
C: everyone on team dies. bad times.
now mezzes and squishies:
A: squishies close in on spawns.
B: squishies identify mezzer and hit aim/build up or aim or build up and use thier snipe power or longest ranged attack or controllers/dominators hold/mez the mezzer and no problems.
C: mezzer either dies or takes another blast to the face and dies.
D: squishies move on to the rest of the spawn. good times
now for some squishies played as melee that shouldn't be:
A: squishies run into spawn and get mezzed and die. bad times.
i hope i have made it easier for people who think they are something they are not or proven that there are really no problems that a very few people think there are. there are options in place that will help deal with the few and far between times when a squishy gets mezzed. they are called inspirations.
change your tactics when playing a squishy is the only advice that can be given if all you do is solo. it is not the games fault nor anyone elses for you not planning your strategy before going into battle.
What I don't get here is the attitude of the pro-mez protection crowd in this thread.
Ignoring something does not invalidate it.
It has been explained time and time again that there are ways available to everyone to avoid being mezzed. It just comes in different forms for various ATs. Yet you all insist that it is unbalanced because the melee ATs have passive protection, while other ATs have active protection.
Yes, that's right, protection.
pro⋅tec⋅tion
/prəˈtɛkʃən/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [pruh-tek-shuhn] Show IPA
noun
1. the act of protecting or the state of being protected; preservation from injury or harm.
2. a thing, person, or group that protects: This vaccine is a protection against disease.
By the definition of the word you keep throwing around so glibly, any means used to prevent mez is protection from it, whether it is passive (the state of being protected) or active (the act of protecting) All are considered protection as the word is defined.
So, the entire argument is moot because squishy ATs DO have protection from mezzes, they just have to actively employ it. Or are you going to tell me the dictionary is wrong as far as what the word means?
More likely you will ignore this entire post because it's telling you something you don't want to hear, and valid points you don't like are automatically wrong in your eyes, your own ability to prove them so notwithstanding.
Next?
Edit: Upon consideration I have realized this post will be dissected and quoted out of context. Definition 2 that I put in here will be waved around as confirming what you have all been saying, while definition 1 (which is every bit as valid) will be completely ignored.
So please, do go ahead and twist my words in an attempt to make them wrong. If anyone disputes my definition of the word protection you can go to dictionary.com and check it yourself.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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B: "Mezzer" ???? If there were only one per spawn nobody would be talking about this.|
Originally Posted by Sharker_Quint
ok. im going to say this as clearly as possible for the 3 that still don't get how mezzes and melee don't work.
now mezzes and squishies: A: squishies close in on spawns. B: squishies identify mezzer and hit aim/build up or aim or build up and use thier snipe power or longest ranged attack or controllers/dominators hold/mez the mezzer and no problems. C: mezzer either dies or takes another blast to the face and dies. D: squishies move on to the rest of the spawn. good times |
Its a little more like
A. Squishies spot spawn
B. There are about 3 or 4 mezzers in the spawn.
C. They try to prioritize and hit the most dangerous one first.
D. All goes well 2 of the mezzers are out of the action and one or 2 of the squishies is out of the action.
The mezzed people are a little annoyed especially if they have for all intents and purposes been one shotted by minions.
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Enemies that buff each other/themselves, debuff us and use synergistic combos to make our life difficult. That's what I want.|
Originally Posted by Dispari
Like what? Like enemies with autohit -RES and -DEF powers, powers that do -regen, stacking high mag mez, enemies who highly resist your damage type, PBAoE -ToHit powers, fleeing enemies, enemies who stay at range, enemies who sap endurance?
Because those are all "difficulties" that NPCs can and do have, which are more painful to melees than ranged units who have ways to avoid, prevent, or lessen their effects. |
Most enemies just use damage and mez with some innate resistance to a damage type or two. The only ones seen as threatening are the ones who go beyond that and introduce different effects. Sappers and Sorcerers are two good examples of this.
I'm not saying that every enemy should be running around with the vanguard curse or mask of vitiation. I'd much rather every enemy have smaller (but still effective) buffs/debuffs that work together rather than just one or two having buffs/debuffs with overblown effects, which is unfortunately what we see now.
If you're unlucky enough to be in an inconvenient timezone, you end up doing a lot of soloing.
I hate exemplaring my kin/psi/psi defender, because without Mass Hypnosis and Dominate from the epic, she is a total mez magnet. If there are two mezzers in a group (e.g. when facing DE, Malta, Rikti, Crey, Nemesis, ...) chances are she'll be stunned, held or whatever, and it's all over. I had to take in whole trays of break frees for some missions before the epic, and then exit to buy more before finishing. It was tedious, unheroic, and frustrating. Even now, going in a raid up against the Ritki mothership, she spends a significant proportion of the time hanging around incapacitated by mez.
My claws/regen scrapper on the other hand is easy mode. Fun, no hassles with mez. I can find challenging situations, but I never have to face anything nearly as frustrating as a single lucky mez taking me to the hospital.
Is the defender so amazingly awesome on teams that I, as the player, have to be punished with such annoying solo gameplay?
Cut down the mez frenzy. It's just annoying and stupid, and exacerbates the already huge disparity between melee types and defenders.
No.
Please don't make the game any easier then it already is.
[U][URL="http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=251594"][/URL][/U]