There needs to be player/dev PvP dialogue.
By
Aces_High,
Posted on: 2009-05-14 17:14 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I prefer forum PvP. 
But don't tell the mods!
Oh wait....
.... [censored].
Positron stated in an interview on the EU forums that "We love the way PVP currently is".
You aren't going to get any dialog from them on the subject of PvP. They acknowledge that the system isn't perfect and still needs work but overall they are happy with what they have.
Long live travel suppression.
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That's why I cheer every time PVP is crippled into complete uselessness It's munchkin-repellant.
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What a wonderfull attitude that is.
"I'm so glad when other peoples experiences in this game suck so that I can feel good."
You could at least try to show a better attitude than those whose behavior you say you dislike, because right now you are no better than they are.
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In that regard, Spidey is the posterboy argument *for* travel suppression. It would be hard to think of a worse example for the point you want to make.
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Hrmm... you might want to read some Spidey.
And my point to you is that knocked down or up, stunned, held, etc. would be more in line with what your actually addressing. You know... how the pvp used to be.
Not "onoz! the bad guy is getting away cuz I'm running in quicksand" feel that pvp has right now.
Those that persevere through this... cool.
I admire your tenacity.
I lament having that cathartic reprieve from the grind that old school PvP was.
*lights pipe, reminisces*
Epic battles in SC and RV.
As for attitudes of certain factions within the game, etc.
I learned a long time ago that taking anything seriously in broadcast pvp or forum pvp is failing at either.
Relenting and participating in a shouting match with an [censored] reduces you to that level.
lol
My friend rolled a bdsm "gimp" scrapper just to have fun with those fools. Complete with a whole set of binds lauding the PvP battles as his masochistic frenzy.
Hilarious.
Ah... but I digress.
This is serious business!!1!
No it's not.
It's a game.
And one of the facets of it that gave me, and many others, a lot of joy is massively broken. By design.
Thanks for all the responses.
Pro and Con.
This is dialogue, and if kept up will attract some notice.
~Mik
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That's why I cheer every time PVP is crippled into complete uselessness It's munchkin-repellant.
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What a wonderfull attitude that is.
"I'm so glad when other peoples experiences in this game suck so that I can feel good."
You could at least try to show a better attitude than those whose behavior you say you dislike, because right now you are no better than they are.
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Hey! I reserve the right to hate a whole group of people because of the actions of the few! 
And it always amuses me: Run into a few bad pvp-ers = all pvpers are bad. Run into a few bad pve-ers= well.... all pve-ers can't be bad because I am one so I let it slide.
Forum logic: Its only rude when we aren't the ones doing it! 
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That's why I cheer every time PVP is crippled into complete uselessness It's munchkin-repellant.
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What a wonderfull attitude that is.
"I'm so glad when other peoples experiences in this game suck so that I can feel good."
You could at least try to show a better attitude than those whose behavior you say you dislike, because right now you are no better than they are.
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after all the crap I have taken about enjoying farming occasionally, I feel very little remorse about the feasability of something that wasn't even around at launch.
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Ah, but Frost, you don't see that they ARE Munchkins here. Because this game has PvP zones instead of PvP everywhere, they compete with others by having more "stuff" and more "awesome" characters than others. They aren't doing it just for them... if this was a single player game, they would have left a long time ago, because there is no one to show their massive E-Peen to.
There are actually examples of that in a few threads that I have posted in recently, people literally admitting that they play to have "better stuff" and "better toons" than others. That is their sole motivation by their own admission.
They aren't Self-Actualizing like in Maslow's Pyramid. They are just petty and get their kicks by showing off "stuff".
That's their PvP in a non-PvP game.
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Nah.
It's more that most of us that are remaining see the PvE game as mind-numbingly easy. Human opponents offer unpredictability and very quick reaction times.
Sure, there are ratings in the ladder and there is some accompanying ribbing but no one takes it that seriously.
To me, the PvE game got a little stale about the time I got my 8th or 9th level 50. Architect Entertainment is doing a great deal to improve this at least.
PvP in its current crippled, slowed state, is at least somewhat fun. The Devs aren't likely to roll back any of the changes though, since they feel they were necessary so that there wasn't a stratified game (not that people couldn't join or try out for Arena test teams in the old days anyway...) as there existed previously.
Questions about the game, either side? /t @Neuronia or @Neuronium, with your queries!
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lol here is the PvP dialogue. Devs- We want to hear what you think about these PvP changes.
Us- No way, here are several other things that can be done to not turn away your current PvPers and bring others in....
Devs- Ummmm no. Love it or leave it but your opinions really don't matter. We were asking to appear nice.
I can think of two ways to get the devs to specifically listen to your grievances: 1. buy the company. 2. Hire the dev team as consultants, like lobbyists and political action committees do with politicians.
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I applaud the effort but you aren't going to get much sympathy on the forums. Most of the forums goes are openly hostile to PvP and PvP players in general.
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I have nothing against pvp as an activity, but there is a sizable minority of players so narrowminded and vile even a neutral soul like myself occasionally roots for its demise, just to be rid of them.
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I actually agree that there are numerous issues with the current PvP balance - but then I had many problems with PvP balance before the I13 changes.
Honestly I don't think what we have now is any worse. It's simply different. Mind, the fact that it's different makes it bad enough for some people.
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I'm coming from the same direction you are, but saying it is "simply different" is not a stance I could take. Considering all powers had their damage adjusted based on a global code, all AT's were essentially converted into damage AT's, free resistances added in certain places, a baffling system of diminishing returns set in place, all outlandishly different from anything in the game before...
Simply different it is not.
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It's kinda hard to tell how much of the ire from PvP players is because they genuinely think what we have now is broken, or because they're just unwilling to adapt or give the new system a shot.
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I feel no anger towards the system, nor feel like its broken, nor like I must adapt to try it out.
The system we have now is just very Daedalean.
They took the Type R right out of it.
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Regarding travel suppression in particular, though...I screamed like a rabid animal when I first saw the patch notes back when I13 was on test. Having played extensively since, though...I honestly don't think the new suppression is that bad. Running battles are still fine, and you still CAN remain mobile - indeed I agree this gives meleers a fighting chance...annnnd before you say anything, my favourite PvP character was (and is) a blaster. There's plenty amiss with I13 PvP, but the new suppression rules aren't the game-killer they're made out to be.
They really need to do something about Teleport in PvP, though. That much I agree.
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I'm just going to quote this part directly from Macskull's letter;
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Why was suppression, in this form, considered necessary? I can think of two reasons. First, to give melee ATs a better chance at getting kills against ranged ATs, and second, to ensure that once a fight starts, someone dies. You failed spectacularly at the first point kind of. You succeeded in that most of the people in PvP zones these days are Tankers, Scrappers, Stalkers, and Brutes, but failed in that the current favorite powersets for those ATs are once that bring ranged attacks to the table Spines and Super Strength, notably. Even on characters with no in-set ranged attacks, they are practically required to take ranged attacks from an epic or patron pool just to be competitive. The problem with this is that the duration of suppression from being attacked is too short compared to the duration of suppression for making an attack, even a melee one. Two seconds of suppression on your opponent doesnt help close the distance if you are suppressed for three seconds. I propose that the I13 suppression system be thrown out the window and replaced with one similar to what TribHavok suggested during the I13 beta (by the way, PvPers were told you were going to implement that system, and it never happened). That is:
* Suppression functions identically to PvE suppression, except:
* Being hit by a melee attack from a melee AT (not a ranged attack, such as Spirit Shark, Hurl, or Impale, from those ATs) causes two seconds of suppression. This, combined with the autohit -75% range in Taunt/Confront, will help ensure both that ranged ATs will need to stay fairly close to the melee ATs, while allowing the melee AT to close distance with the ranged attacker more easily.
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Combined with the proposed travel power suppression setup at the bottom of that quote, I think a rework of slows, -jump, -fly would be interesting, if possible. In effect, basically adjusting them so they only suppress the corresponding travel power on their targets; Super Speed/Sprint, Super Jump/Combat Jumping, and Flight/Hover for a few seconds. Along with a immunity afterward, 15s or however long. For teleport, I could see some powers that could be granted -teleport, such as perhaps some gravity control powers, or ... electric attacks maybe? It worked for SLJ at least.
Anyways, I'm just shooting from the hip. Everyone's opinion and experience may differ.
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I have nothing against pvp as an activity, but there is a sizable minority of players so narrowminded and vile even a neutral soul like myself occasionally roots for its demise, just to be rid of them.
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So...occasionally neutral soul?
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It'll be a nice day when people regard individuals as just that instead of representatives of some larger group that they may be a part of.
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Sounds like you have a dream.
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I have nothing against pvp as an activity, but there is a sizable minority of players so narrowminded and vile even a neutral soul like myself occasionally roots for its demise, just to be rid of them.
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The same could be said for every sub-population in the game. You know first hand the hate that ebil marketeers generate. No doubt, many of your "victims" consider you narrow minded and vile. Would you want the devs to completely revamp the market by setting fixed prices for everything because people complained how horrible you were?
I don't care if you want to call out specific people as the [censored] they are, but when you call out a whole group remember you may eventually be calling yourself out as well. We've already been seeing it. PvPers were called out. Now farmers are called out. Who's next? What group gets the devs attention in the next issue because people on the forums have to pass judgement on how everybody else plays?
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It'll be a nice day when people regard individuals as just that instead of representatives of some larger group that they may be a part of.
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Sounds like you have a dream.
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Seriously. The only downside to my dream is that if I get shot, I won't be considered a martyr. I'll just respawn in the hospital. 
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
the problem with pvp in this game is simple:
there is no easy way to go and start meaningful, "balanced" pvp.
WoW has imbalanced pvp - but they have battlegrounds. You can easily get a pick-up group of 10 to pvp in a game against your foes. The pvp is not just endless defeat/respawn - that isn't popular in WoW either. And you get rewards for it - making it meaningful.
Wandering into a pvp zone and hoping for a fight - when they are largely empty, is a waste of time.
Fighting someone who will just respawn is a waste of time.
The imbalances in pvp don't matter - except to hardcore pvpers.
The rest of the players avoid pvp because it isn't something you can do casually and feel like you accomplished anything.
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the problem with pvp in this game is simple:
there is no easy way to go and start meaningful, "balanced" pvp.
WoW has imbalanced pvp - but they have battlegrounds. You can easily get a pick-up group of 10 to pvp in a game against your foes. The pvp is not just endless defeat/respawn - that isn't popular in WoW either. And you get rewards for it - making it meaningful.
Wandering into a pvp zone and hoping for a fight - when they are largely empty, is a waste of time.
Fighting someone who will just respawn is a waste of time.
The imbalances in pvp don't matter - except to hardcore pvpers.
The rest of the players avoid pvp because it isn't something you can do casually and feel like you accomplished anything.
[/ QUOTE ]I find casual PvP hilarous and fun. Then the trash talkers show up and I go back to my PVE and let them have fun punching themselves.
If only that were true. I'd go into PVP zones for more than just the Day Job badge if I could actually watch someone punch himself to death.
Storm Summoning is great because it makes you better than everyone else in the game. - Camma
Knockback is mitigation. It won't be removed just because meleers ***** and moan. - Chaos Creator
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the problem with pvp in this game is simple:
there is no easy way to go and start meaningful, "balanced" pvp.
WoW has imbalanced pvp - but they have battlegrounds. You can easily get a pick-up group of 10 to pvp in a game against your foes. The pvp is not just endless defeat/respawn - that isn't popular in WoW either. And you get rewards for it - making it meaningful.
Wandering into a pvp zone and hoping for a fight - when they are largely empty, is a waste of time.
Fighting someone who will just respawn is a waste of time.
The imbalances in pvp don't matter - except to hardcore pvpers.
The rest of the players avoid pvp because it isn't something you can do casually and feel like you accomplished anything.
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Well... a roll back to PvP circa Ish 12 would be a start.
Keep the changes to PPPs tho. (I'm not sure when they were introduced as I left between Ish 10 and Ish 11).
I do agree that something needs to be done about the rewards for PvP.
That should have been the obvious choice/fix to up participation in PvP.
Fighting someone who just respawns is a waste of time?
That's pretty much every FPS out there.
And I love those and have tons of fun playing those.
But I'm a comic book nerd. I want superheroic craziness PvP!
That's the big letdown on the current PvP.
These characters that we have invested so much time and effort into are mere shadows of themselves in the PvP environment.
Bleh!
I think the rewards should be upped, but only redeemable (or scalable) via team on team, objective based PvP. There's some good concepts in RV and SC, but they really fall short of CoX potential.
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Well... a roll back to PvP circa Ish 12 would be a start.
[/ QUOTE ]The devs have already said that this isn't going to happen. Also, if you've been here for any length of time then you already know that the devs never roll back large changes like this. Ever. They've never ever ever ever ever rolled back large changes. Think back to ED and the GDN. Statesman admitted that their datamining proved those changes lost them thousands of players and they still refused to roll them back, modify them in any way, or even discuss them.
The devs are not ever going to roll back the PvP changes, and they're not ever even going to discuss that as a possibilty. I'm not trying to tell you what you should or should not do, I just want you to realize that you're wasting your time. Still it's your time to waste, so I wish you luck.
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Keep the changes to PPPs tho. (I'm not sure when they were introduced as I left between Ish 10 and Ish 11).
[/ QUOTE ]Issue 13, same time as the PvP changes.
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I do agree that something needs to be done about the rewards for PvP. That should have been the obvious choice/fix to up participation in PvP.
[/ QUOTE ]Done. PvP only IO drops appeared in Issue 14.
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Fighting someone who just respawns is a waste of time? That's pretty much every FPS out there. And I love those and have tons of fun playing those. But I'm a comic book nerd. I want superheroic craziness PvP!
[/ QUOTE ]Yes, fighting someone that just respawns and is in your face attacking you 15 seconds later is a waste of time. Many FPS' nowdays have systems in place to prevent that from happening. And that's just one of the reasons why PvP zones in a Superhero/villain MMO were a big mistake. Another is that this isn't WW2 online, while PvP zones make sense when you're playing a soldier they are nonsensical for Superheroes/villains. Arenas and instanced PvP missions with single or double elimination makes much more sense.
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That's the big letdown on the current PvP. These characters that we have invested so much time and effort into are mere shadows of themselves in the PvP environment.
[/ QUOTE ]That's just one of the reasons why many us (even those of us that really like PvP) will not PvP in this game.
City of... still has the most fun PvP of any game I have ever played.
That said, there seem to be some specific problems that the I14 changes targeted, whether they were successful or not.
Casual vs Hardcore
Many people fear PvP because of some combination of hating being defeated in the first place, dreading a learning curve with no forseeable benefits, being griefed or trash talked. But a lot of these fears boil down to not feeling like they have a chance to win, because they beleive they will be facing foes that are better equipped and skilled. And, they are right.
I propose a reputation-based, rather than level-based system that prevents the uber from beating up on peons for long. Each kill gets you points: get enough points and you graduate up a tier; you are unable to fight people below your tier. When you look at people, they would 'con' as per their tier: greys are too low, purples are too high.
My hope is that would increase entry into PvP, because you could ensure that people could fight people near their skill.
ganking
I propose a tool that allows you to join a PvP team in a manner similar to joining an arena match. When you click to enter a pvp zone, you are asked if you want to solo or team. If you choose to team, you are asked if you want a timer or team size. You can choose a team from a list of teams that are currently forming (your team is given a team name like with a TF).
If you choose timer, your team is teleported from wherever they are into the zone entry are when the timer runs out. If you choose team size, everyone is teleported when the team reaches the proper size.
This would help people find teams, and feel like they can enter the zone gank free. Of course, it's up to the players to stick together after that, of course.
Toe to Toe vs Run and Gun
This I have no clue about. Some people love combat with full speed, but that tends toward combat where people don't stick around to fight, which gets complained about.
Other people prefer it to be tougher to escape so that fights actually happen. I don't see any way to reconcile these two groups: it's just a preference polarization, like the people who think that porting people into drones is fair play vs those who think it is the depth of greifing.
My only thought would be to have at least one suppression-free zone, but that opens up a big can of worms, With DR and enhanced resistance for everyone, a lack of suppression may mean that no one can defeat anyone.
Just some thoughts.
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I think the problem is just with the purposes of the zones. It's too easy for the zones to degrade into zergs where nobody cares about the "objectives." This is especially apparent in Recluse's Victory.
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I think the problem is just with the purposes of the zones. It's too easy for the zones to degrade into zergs where nobody cares about the "objectives." This is especially apparent in Recluse's Victory.
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During I14 Closed Beta I suggested there should be a change to RV: increase the chance for a PvP recipe to drop for a given side based on how many pillboxes they control, with the highest chance of all being during the 'zone won' phase. That might actually get people to care about capturing pillboxes and winning the zone.
I still think they should do this.
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I applaud the effort but you aren't going to get much sympathy on the forums. Most of the forums goes are openly hostile to PvP and PvP players in general.
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So true.
People on the forums constantly bash any mention of PvP like its the bane of CoX. If youre looking for anything constructive you usually end up with "lol pvp". Another comment I often hear on the forum is that the PvP community takes up less then 10% of the CoX community so we arent that important. Funny thing about that is the forum community takes up less then 10% of the CoX community. Talk about irony.
Its obvious the devs dont really care what the PvPers want. This was proven in i13 beta when the devs basically ignored just about every suggestion made to improve this joke they call PvP 2.0. To top it off its been stated by positron that PvP is more balanced and better then it was before i13. As sad as it is PvP 2.0 is here to stay. You have 2 choices, adapt or leave.
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I don't see it as much lately, but a while back, hanging out in RWZ or Cimmerora was invitation to have to listen to hordes of trash-talk by stalkers trying to 'convince' people to play zone pvp.
[/ QUOTE ] Broadcast PvP is the [censored]!
edit: I've never gotten into PvP much. I've probably spent about ten hours total in PvP zones since it came out. It's not because PvPers talk crap, or kick my butt. I can handle that. What annoys the hell out of me is most of the people I have fought in zones run away if a kill doesn't happen in four seconds. Like little [censored].