There needs to be player/dev PvP dialogue.
By
Aces_High,
Posted on: 2009-05-14 17:14 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I'm coming from the same direction you are, but saying it is "simply different" is not a stance I could take. Considering all powers had their damage adjusted based on a global code, all AT's were essentially converted into damage AT's, free resistances added in certain places, a baffling system of diminishing returns set in place, all outlandishly different from anything in the game before...
Simply different it is not.
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Mm - true, and this is a good point. Probably one reason why these changes feel like a brick to the head is, well, they all came at once. It's one thing to do incremental tweaks, but...
I'm still not convinced that the changes themselves are that bad (mind, I'm not saying I like 'em, either). BUT I will agree they did way too much, in way too many areas, all at the same time. And that's kinda ennh.
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I feel no anger towards the system, nor feel like its broken, nor like I must adapt to try it out.
The system we have now is just very Daedalean.
They took the Type R right out of it.
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Okay, that reference wins, right there.
Trouble is...'s still kinda subjective. I really dunno. How would you characterise CoH PvP? What made it so much better then, that isn't here today?
(Your point about travel suppression is a good one, and I'm not gonna dispute that)
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Edit: and I know that the PvP zones have other goals - but not on a scale that encourages casual players. I can't solo the shards in Bloody Bay. And even if I go there - it isn't a contest, there is just someone trying to gank me solely to gank me. It's not a game - it's the devs trying to lure you into an ambush.
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The PvP zone minigames are pretty much failures, really. I ain't sayin' they suck...but it's clear not many folks really bother with 'em.
I suspect the original CoV developers wanted the zone minigames to be the primary activity in PvP zones. That's not what happened.
@Acyl
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So what needs to happen to make the Zone minigames better? I would say instance them and make them team-required like Battlegrounds, but then they aren't Zone minigames.
Let's start with the Shivan Shards. Obviously, the Pets were made very powerful to motivate around the idea that you are fighting other players for them, but that isn't happening.
What would change this equation? Is the zone just too big?
What makes, say, Capture the Flag more fascinating than battlling big green Rad Monsters and other players over super-pets?
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So true.
People on the forums constantly bash any mention of PvP like its the bane of CoX. If youre looking for anything constructive you usually end up with "lol pvp". Another comment I often hear on the forum is that the PvP community takes up less then 10% of the CoX community so we arent that important.
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Y'all would get a much better reception if a sizable portion of that 10% wasn't composed of the most thin-skinned, arrogant players around, most of whom also labor along under the weight of outsize persecution fantasies.
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Y'all would get a much better reception if a sizable portion of that 10% wasn't composed of the most thin-skinned, arrogant players around, most of whom also labor along under the weight of outsize persecution fantasies.
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zounds!
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Y'all would get a much better reception if a sizable portion of that 10% wasn't composed of the most thin-skinned, arrogant players around, most of whom also labor along under the weight of outsize persecution fantasies.
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zounds!
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I admit I lol'd.
The first step in opening a dialogue on pvp is for folks to understand that pvp IS NOT going to be rolled back to issue 12.
Unfortunately, I'd bet for 90% of the pvpers in these forums that's a non starter.
I can confidently say that unresearched statistic is near factual.
Also with the fact that Posi basically said they are happy with where pvp is (meaning DR and travel suppression is here to stay) then there you have it.
Also Arcanaville's comments up above were spot on about this issue.
When one side of the dialogue (lol) starts off with "you don't pvp in the arena for any significant amount of time, so your opinion doesn't count" you might as well not bother.
Oh and btw, I think most of the changes brought on by I13 were not great. 
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I don't really understand the premise of PvP in a game like this. You're competing with someone, right? But what are you competing on? In a race, you compete on speed. The fastest person wins. Who is supposed to win in PvP?
The person who brings the most friends along?
The person who spends the most on their build?
The person who picked the best powersets?
The stalker?
The person who can actually understand all that diminishing returns stuff?
The group with the best teamwork?
The person with the best reflexes and instincts? And fastest ping?
The highest level character?
The person with the best tactics?
I'm not sure what the goal is supposed to be. It seems like the answer is a haphazard mix of lots of stuff. And some things are sort of paradoxical.
I mean, on the one hand I'm pretty sure no one wants a system where the highest level person automatically wins. But on the other hand, if being higher level doesn't matter at all, then what's the point of leveling? But if you take away levels, then you've pretty much broken the mold on MMORPG's.
But then you look at how the system is implemented, and it seems paradoxical too. The auto-sk/auto-exemp stuff in the zones suggests that levels shouldn't matter. A level 15 and a level 50 should both be on even footing in Bloody Bay. But then you get purple IO's, and suddenly the level 50 has a huge potential advantage. So are they trying to keep them even or trying to give the higher level character an advantage?
What's the goal here?
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So what needs to happen to make the Zone minigames better? I would say instance them and make them team-required like Battlegrounds, but then they aren't Zone minigames.
Let's start with the Shivan Shards. Obviously, the Pets were made very powerful to motivate around the idea that you are fighting other players for them, but that isn't happening.
What would change this equation? Is the zone just too big?
What makes, say, Capture the Flag more fascinating than battlling big green Rad Monsters and other players over super-pets?
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1) the zones are too big. A couple of people wandering around won't see each other.
2) you can't solo it, but teams are not created for it.
So simple but ineffective solution is to make it soloable. That way players will go there for Shivans or nukes more regularly and run into each other (if it is smaller).
Better solution is to have it be an event - broadcast that meteors have been found or whatever (it works for Rikti and Zombie invasions). It could happen every hour, but making it available for concentrated periods of time would hopefully concentrate the players (have them open full time, but the mission for temp power is only available at limited times).
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Not exactly, I like a man who's head only comes up to my waist.
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Hi, I'm Celestial Lord.
@Celestial Lord and @Celestial Lord Too
He's not even kidding.
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So what needs to happen to make the Zone minigames better? I would say instance them and make them team-required like Battlegrounds, but then they aren't Zone minigames.
Let's start with the Shivan Shards. Obviously, the Pets were made very powerful to motivate around the idea that you are fighting other players for them, but that isn't happening.
What would change this equation? Is the zone just too big?
What makes, say, Capture the Flag more fascinating than battlling big green Rad Monsters and other players over super-pets?
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The thing is all you can really do is deny an opponent getting them. It doesn't get you much else. Is it one meteor fragment if I beat you?
It's just easier to wait for them to clear the base, then slip in and get your own or move to another base unless you are just there to keep the opposing faction players from getting shivans.
Bounties in Sirens used to matter when SOs were hard to come by and mattered. I9 killed that.
Warburg is similar to the shivans with the added element of shooting (sometimes accidentally) another hero/villain if you aren't teamed with them.
I haven't spent hardly any time in RV so I cannot comment on that one.
total kick to the gut
This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.
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So true.
People on the forums constantly bash any mention of PvP like its the bane of CoX. If youre looking for anything constructive you usually end up with "lol pvp". Another comment I often hear on the forum is that the PvP community takes up less then 10% of the CoX community so we arent that important.
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Y'all would get a much better reception if a sizable portion of that 10% wasn't composed of the most thin-skinned, arrogant players around, most of whom also labor along under the weight of outsize persecution fantasies.
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Just about everything you just stated about PvPers can get copied, pasted and applied to some of the forumites as well.
I also like how you said "most" there. Tells me a little about how you feel about the PvP community as a whole.
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So true.
People on the forums constantly bash any mention of PvP like its the bane of CoX. If youre looking for anything constructive you usually end up with "lol pvp". Another comment I often hear on the forum is that the PvP community takes up less then 10% of the CoX community so we arent that important.
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Y'all would get a much better reception if a sizable portion of that 10% wasn't composed of the most thin-skinned, arrogant players around, most of whom also labor along under the weight of outsize persecution fantasies.
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Just about everything you just stated about PvPers can get copied, pasted and applied to some of the forumites as well.
I also like how you said "most" there. Tells me a little about how you feel about the PvP community as a whole.
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/e yawwwwwwn.
No matter how many good "insert sub section of the playerbase here" there are, the vocal minority ones will always be the ones that rule the day and shape general perception of the sub section as a whole.
This isn't news, in regards to mmo communities.
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He's not even kidding.
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No. Seriously. He's, like, tiny.
We have proof.
-Rachel-
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So what needs to happen to make the Zone minigames better?
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Give the players that want to participate, but aren't the very best one on one combatants, something to do. The "buff/debuff based on mission completion" thing was an interesting idea, but too diffuse. You want to lower the participation-curve so people can ease into PvP, and then stop right where their participation limits are reached.
In many games, its possible to just throw everyone into the deep end of the pool, but in this game specifically the playerbase is generally unreceptive to it. But even the playerbase that doesn't want to directly engage in high-performance PvP can be lured into having a stake in it, which would make them at least supporters of the activity, if not 100% participants.
How you would do that precisely is a very involved discussion, but I think everything from allowing wagering on arena matches (basically spectator participation) to tower-defense-like minigames (where players man the towers rather than directly engage other players one on one) is fair game.
I think the most important thing is less the methods used, and more the quality of the implementation executed. And in all honesty I think that has been lacking with the PvP implementation going back to its inception.
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The thing is all you can really do is deny an opponent getting them. It doesn't get you much else. Is it one meteor fragment if I beat you?
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Meteor Fragments you get/lose all of them, I have actully gotten a Shivan through purely PvP means, just once to see if it could be done.
Warburg codes is get/lose one at a time.
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He's not even kidding.
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No. Seriously. He's, like, tiny.
We have proof.
-Rachel-
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How did you obtain footage of me? 
@Celestial Lord and @Celestial Lord Too
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In many games, its possible to just throw everyone into the deep end of the pool, but in this game specifically the playerbase is generally unreceptive to it.
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I think this is the big thing, even in games where the community supports such a mindset it is debatable if it is really such a good idea. There will always be people on the fence about PvP and when the choice is between "not participating" and "being tossed head first into a potentially empty pool" Most of these sort of players will choose the former even if they might ultimately enjoy the PvP experience had they tried it.
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What's the goal here?
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It's competition and a break from the mind-numbing PvE grind.
While purples etc. definitely increase performance, there is a twitch element (well, - travel suppression I guess ) where you do need good reaction times to succeed.
Overall, it's the element of unpredictability. If I load into a map of Hellions, I know they are just going to em batsmash until I get into their attack radius. Against another player...are they going to stay to attack, pop inspires, have backup, fly away, TP Foe you to a friend and so on.
It's just more fun than PvE. There are also mini-games for powers if you want/need those as well.
Even in its current atrophied state, PvP is still a large reason for me to stick around.
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what makes pvp fun is that it can be different every time. But in a pvp "game" the rules and such don't change so you try different things.
PvP is like figuring out how to beat an AV at the end of a TF - but the AV changes its tactics every time too.
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what makes pvp fun is that it can be different every time. But in a pvp "game" the rules and such don't change so you try different things.
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Actually, that's only true from some player's perspectives. In PvP, the opponents change, but the gameplay is roughly the same regardless. If you like that, its great. If you don't like it, there aren't a lot of options to diversify the experience.
In PvE, individual critters don't change much, but there's an awful lot of metagaming in the PvE side of the house. Some people like just casually logging in, fighting a couple of Skulls and then logging out. Others aren't crazy about the individual fights, but like reading the story: the foes are the background to the missions. Others see the combat as a hurdle to overcome while developing their characters. Some just play dress-up and the combat is really a form of theater for their characters. Some badge hunt, some collect influence, some treat missions as social events - the metagaming aspects of the PvE game are such that they don't require each individual fight with each individual critter to bear the full weight of keeping the player's attention.
However, in PvP if you don't like getting shot in the face and then teabagged, your options are extremely limited by comparison. I'm not saying every single PvP fight is like that (actually, I found it extremely rare myself) but its also unavoidable. And there aren't a lot of metagaming options available to refocus most players when that happens.
The fact that PvP has mechanical issues is only part of the story. The PvE game has had worse mechanical issues over the life of the game, but in the case of PvP those issues are the singular deciding factor most players have to judge the activity: either you like or accept them, or you don't. In the PvE game, that doesn't have to happen. You can hate (aspects of) the combat and still like the game.
That suggests, as I mentioned previously, that PvP isn't just in need of "fixing" but rather more importantly it needs a healthy ecosystem within which to operate. Without that, its a one-legged stool. If would be as if the devs launched CoV with just one archetype and one zone, and we all spent our time arguing over how to "fix" that one archetype to make CoV more popular. In my opinion, that would be overlooking a seriously large elephant in the room.
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The I14 changes were intended to fix what I think is the basic issue with PvP: there aren't enough participants.
The changes collectively make PvP easier to get into by lowering the difference between upper tier performance and lower tier performance. Theoretically.
In order to do this, they sacrificed similarity between PvP and PvE builds and changed things so much they drove a bunch of old schoolers away. One step forward, one step back.
In order for PvP to improve, 2 things have to happen:
1) PvPers need to enjoy it enough to evangelize.
2) Borderline PvPers need to do the same.
You aren't going to recruit dedicated PvEers, and dedicated PvPers are either playing or have left.
PvP needs to provide a positive first experience for the hesitant, scared, clueless noob, or they will just go back to PvE. I think there have been too many instances (to hear tell on the boards) of PvPers being so antsy to get a fight (due to the low PvP population) that they end up driving people away from PvP.
The problem seems to be that the perception still is that stepping into a zone is like stepping onto an NFL football field, looking over at the entire Raiders lineup, and saying, "Come get some."
I think something like the I14 code changes needed to happen to create the perception that stepping into a zone is not purely asking to be humiliated. And the PvPEC has been trying to get people into PvP via the community, which is great and needed.
I think the Devs need to:
1) Sponsor and appear in more PvP events.
2) Code some kind of teaming mechanism similar to arena matches, so that you don't have as many PvP noobs wandering around zones with no one to fight, or getting ganked by uberteams.
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I remember from the I13 Beta these PvP changes were only to "prepare the battlefield" per say for more PvP work, not to promote it. Is that not what they said? There is, or was so far as I know, a PvP zone revamp coming, base PvP revamp, and all that jazz?
Or has that all changed? Is PvP in timeout?
Just wondering if more work is actually coming or if the developers have just said, "[censored] it."
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The PvP zone minigames are pretty much failures, really. I ain't sayin' they suck...but it's clear not many folks really bother with 'em.
I suspect the original CoV developers wanted the zone minigames to be the primary activity in PvP zones. That's not what happened.
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The biggest reason the mini games are a failure is that, for the most part, they require teaming to play them. For whatever reason, this is something people in this game are loath to do where PvP is concerned. Everybody wants to take their AT of choice and be the lone wolf. This is a recipe for failure on many levels, and the biggest reason so many people were frustrated and confused by PvP. It has been mentioned many times in these forums and in game, PvP was originaly balanced for teams, not 1 vs 1. So people would go in solo and get crushed by a team then come here to the forums and complain about how unbalanced it was and never realize that the fault was theirs because they were doing it wrong.
Mini games in PvP will always fail unless the devs can find a way to get people to overcome this stupid aversion that people have to teaming in PvP.
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Fighting someone who just respawns is a waste of time?
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Not CS
And FPS put in a goal or an end.
You can just gank people for 5 minutes than count score - different from just ganking people endlessly
Or gank people who respawn - but your goal is to seize all 5 flags.
Just endless fighting between people who respawn is meaningless.
Edit: and I know that the PvP zones have other goals - but not on a scale that encourages casual players. I can't solo the shards in Bloody Bay. And even if I go there - it isn't a contest, there is just someone trying to gank me solely to gank me. It's not a game - it's the devs trying to lure you into an ambush.