There needs to be player/dev PvP dialogue.
By
Aces_High,
Posted on: 2009-05-14 17:14 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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It's not "the major focus of development", but one can hardly claim it's being ignored.
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Not sure if you thought I implied it was being ignored, but just to be clear; I was simply asking if the coming PvP plans for zones/bases really are still in the works.
Most of the other post in this thread seem to make out as though I13 was supposed to serve as promotion of PvP by itself and not as if it was just laying the groundwork for that which was to come. I thought we just might be hearing more about their plans whilst we play in the cement while it dries...
I really like this discussion and am glad to see so many participating.
I'd sure like the Devs to also chime in.
The modified rollback (i.e. getting rid of TS and DR) may not happen, as so many state, but that's not going to stop me from beating the drum for that change.
The change in rewards and the modifying of PPPs is nice, but the advent of Ish13 did the opposite in regards to PvP promotion.
There is no question that the PvP minigames need to be rethought. Successful completion is easier with a team, but I have collected more Shivans and Nukes solo than I care to remember (early LRSF days).
This definitely needs addressing and is a much easier fix to PvP promotion that dumbing down our characters to this ugly thing that passes for PvP right now.
What they implemented was a mistake.
And, sure, they may hold onto this mistake stubbornly as they have done with many other things, but it's a mistake nonetheless.
I thank the many that have reiterated my point that PvP is a cathartic change to the grind of leveling.
I like the analogies used as well.
I like that someone pointed out that some are hesitant to face defeat with their characters who have steamrolled through every mission.
Those first few faceplants in PvP can sting.
But enough of them and you get used to it. You improve and you actually improve your PvE game as well.
Although... that is handcuffed now with these current implementations.
But improving in PvP meant understanding your powersets that much more. Thus more success in the PvE game.
I'm sure that I can adapt and have some fun with the current system. But I can't stand that they just mitigated the support so harshly. Those are the ones truly left hanging. The healers and mezzers. It's a joke and a slap in the face to a vital segment of the PvP population. Ask any serious team PvPer and they should tell you that their MVP is this empath, that thermal, or this kin (or maybe even this dommy, salud, Tops, wherever you are!).
Or was.
I know how much respect, value and appreciation the great support people garnered back when I used to PvP a lot.
Those peoples roles have literally been written out of the game.
And that's truly sad.
Think about those analogies made. About the fluid tactics needed to succeed in PvP.
Now think about the crack healer who gets you through the toughest of <insert PvE experience here>.
Extrapolate that to how bomb of a healer, or other support toon, you had to be to foster success in the PvP realm.
And the Devs just said... (essentially), "We don't want you to play anymore."
And that's what the Devs got.
Shameful.
Keep the dialogue going!
Honestly, I don't expect a complete rollback to i12 PvP. As much as I'd like to see it, I know better.
However, I would like to see more options added to the arena so that one can create an i12 environment, as far as mechanics go. Make it so that those of us that enjoyed THAT style of PvP can have it, and those that enjoy i13 PvP can have theirs too.
Who knows? Maybe some crazy alignment of the planets will happen and the two groups will cross-contaminate (for lack of a better term) and mix/match rules.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
I agree here with the undercurrent of folks who feel that PvP in the City lacks goals and direction. Essentially, it's perpetual team Deathmatch.
I played FPS games for years before I came here, about 5 years worth of it on teams that played in competitive leagues and ladders. One of those teams was top-flight, and undefeated in rated play, the others were pretty mediocre. In pretty much all cases, I was there at the teams' formation, and I stayed till they disbanded.
While those games had deathmatch, all the serious organized play was of gametypes with objectives beyond "defeat the enemy team". We had to destroy things in a base, capture the enemy flag a certain number of times or the most before a timer ran out, hold objectives longest, etc. People used deathmatch maps to hone their personal frag skills, not as a means to an end.
Having zones that are open deathmatch is fine, but the fact that, in essence, all the zones are like that is killer in my opinion. Even in the zones with side-based goals (RV and Siren's), those goals are there essentially there for their own sakes. Sure, if you take enough pillboxes, your side wins. Now... why do you want to win? If it's not more interesting or rewarding than pure (team) deathmatch, people will brush it aside. Right now you get rep and drops from people and pretty much nothing worth having from winning a zone. (The temp powers from SC are nice, but I haven't seen people try to take the zone back to get them since CoV was brand new.)
Similarly, stopping people from getting nukes and Shivans is not a goal, it's an anti-goal. It basically doesn't do anything for you so much as it denies it to someone else. Oh, sure, you get to steal stuff from them, but in my experience, unless you're wiping the floor with some noob, it's simpler to just get your own.
IMO they need zones with activities more similar to gametypes in FPSs. I think that would generate more interest and attract more people. They need more reasons people want to PvP and less focus on making them tolerate it to get stuff they want (badges, temps, PvP IOs).
Sadly, IMO, using the separation of PvP powers to make the powers system radically different from PvE was a radical mistake. I never wanted to PvP in this game for a variety of reasons, but I thought the mobility, speed and pace were excellent. Curtailing that with plus the effects of DPA normalization meant it went from something I wasn't interested in to something I actively dislike.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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However, I would like to see more options added to the arena so that one can create an i12 environment, as far as mechanics go. Make it so that those of us that enjoyed THAT style of PvP can have it, and those that enjoy i13 PvP can have theirs too.
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If you do that, though, you'd never see the hardcore PvP'ers in the zones ever again, unless there were big changes to the zones. The general argument for the I13 changes has been that they were implemented to try to attract more people, and it didn't. If you work to further separate the I12 PvPers from the I13 PvPers, no one wins. Zones would be even more empty than they already are, and Arenas would just have the same people getting tired of fighting the same people over and over again.
I think people need to be patient and see what the Devs plan on doing with the Zones and Base raids before they totally give up on PvP.
Loose --> not tight.
Lose --> Did not win, misplace, cannot find, subtract.
One extra 'o' makes a big difference.
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However, I would like to see more options added to the arena so that one can create an i12 environment, as far as mechanics go. Make it so that those of us that enjoyed THAT style of PvP can have it, and those that enjoy i13 PvP can have theirs too.
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If you do that, though, you'd never see the hardcore PvP'ers in the zones ever again, unless there were big changes to the zones. The general argument for the I13 changes has been that they were implemented to try to attract more people, and it didn't. If you work to further separate the I12 PvPers from the I13 PvPers, no one wins. Zones would be even more empty than they already are, and Arenas would just have the same people getting tired of fighting the same people over and over again.
I think people need to be patient and see what the Devs plan on doing with the Zones and Base raids before they totally give up on PvP.
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As it has been 2 issues since their PvP "fix" blew up in their face, I don't think patient is the right attitude.
Vigilant.
Demonstrative.
Ernest.
Forthright.
Diplomatic.
Hey... their changes cost them money and a lot of people fun.
It's ok to admit that you made a mistake.
It'd be even better if you fixed said mistake.
Dollhouse makes a great point at how the new rules completely marginalize some ATs in mac's thread.
I think the changes to PvP did attract people; they just also drove people away.
I think they Devs have been reacting code-wise to the type of gameplay that exists, not just the type that SHOULD exist. To keep n00bs from being driven away by ganking, they weakened teaming and made soloists stronger in the hope of getting more people who try pVp to stick around.
I wonder if some kind of 'forced teaming' code would have been better?
I think if people team more...a LOT more... then we would see a relaxation on DR, increased resistance and whatnot.
I13 had more freedom of movement and better buffing, but it had it's share of downsides, IIRC. There were a lot of people complaining about people not sticking around to fight, and other people complaining that that they felt forced into coordinated spiking and that the roles were too restrictive.
I'm not sure there's a way to please both camps, but it's something that should certainly be pursued.
If the Devs were to roll back the I13 changes tomorrow, there would be a short chorus of hallelujah, but then after that, we'd be back to the same complaints that brought the changes in the first place.
A lot of old schoolers would come back, but a lot of people who prefer the current style would leave. No harm in calling for what you want, but be sure it's a move forward, and not back to square one.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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I wonder if some kind of 'forced teaming' code would have been better?
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I13 had more freedom of movement and better buffing, but it had it's share of downsides, IIRC. There were a lot of people complaining about people not sticking around to fight, and other people complaining that that they felt forced into coordinated spiking and that the roles were too restrictive.
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Maybe it's just me, but those two observations seem to have a significant incompatability going on.
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A lot of old schoolers would come back, but a lot of people who prefer the current style would leave.
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Which is the smaller group?
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No harm in calling for what you want, but be sure it's a move forward, and not back to square one.
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That is very dependant on whether or not you feel the previous move was already a move backwards.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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Maybe it's just me, but those two observations seem to have a significant incompatability going on.
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Yeah, I see that now. But I just can't see how to get CoX players who are new to PvP to team without forcing it. From my own experience and the observed experiences of others, someone who is thinking, "Maybe I'll try out PvP for the first time" usually does not go to a PvE zone and spam in broadcast "starting RV PvP team, pst".
They zone into RV solo, bounce around at random for a while (often with Stealth on while wondering why the don'tr see anyone around). After awhile, they see someone superleap past, and they follow that guy to where he is watching a battle take place. While they are standing around trying to figure out whether they should attack, they suddenly respawn in the hospital with no idea what just happened.
Rinse, repeat.
After a bit, they either try to talk to some of the locals. This can go well or VERY, VERY badly, but the upshot is that they either come out of it feeling like PvP is something they can do, or that it's just not for them: back to PvP.
If they had to form a team to try PvP in the first place, and if doing so did not interrupt their usual PvE play overly, they would have a better chance of a better first experience. At least then, when their Defender got AS'ed by a Stlker, the rest of the team could at least try to give chase (granted, into a nest of trip mines, but still).
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
Can't you now set arena matches that use the 'old-school' PvP rules?
Formerly "Back Alley Brawler"
Not exactly. While DR and Travel Suppression are options, the changes to damage being based on animation time, mez duration/protection/resistance changes, and universal resists are still stuck. This means that with DR off, you could self cap your resistances on a squishy just with your epic shield. One can understand why that'd be a problem.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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But I just can't see how to get CoX players who are new to PvP to team without forcing it.
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It's very simple. Children on the playground team together every day, and they solve this problem. The child who kicks and bites isn't allowed to come back and play again.
What PVP needs, in the opinion of this non-PVPer, are similar social tools that can be found in PVE: the ability to form a team of your friends and play against an objective of your choosing, at a difficulty level you select, along with the ability to remove and exclude and ostracize the people with whom you would prefer not to associate. That's how playgrounds work; PVP should be no different.
I would love to see social tools for the PVP zones that allow me to make a list: these are my friends, I will PVP with any of them at any time. These other people are idiots, and I never want to see them again for any reason. Allow me to enter PVP on my own terms, with my friends, and I'm more likely to do it.
It's not about winning or losing. It's not about the mechanics. It's not about the Archetypes or the rewards. If you want to grow the circle of PVPers, you have to understand that the fundamental things about which you argue don't interest me. I'm a social butterfly; what interests me are human interactions, and being with my friends, win or lose.
Now you could say, "Just use the Arena, stupid!" I can and do. But the obstacle to that is my limited circle of friends: I can only do that when one of them is around. Open yourself up to playing against every and all player out there, and you're guaranteed to eventually encounter some idiot who's out to make your day miserable, and one such idiot can put you off trying again for weeks. I can lose 20 times in a row and not care, if at the end my opponent says, "Great game! Look, I have some suggestions on things you can do differently. Why don't I go get some other character and we can have a fairer fight?" Lose once to some mental defective who shouts insults and emote-taunts, and I'm not interested in playing with that guy ever again.
Ostracism is a powerful tool. If there are players who routinely make the list of Idiots, players with whom few people want to compete, then those bad apples can no longer spoil the lot. At the moment, the average non-PVPer's only recourse is to ostracize himself which results in reduced PVP population.
And that's why you're not going to get a dialogue going with the developers about this. The developers aren't PVPers if you insult them, call them names, name demands, throw tantrums, and basically act like that idiot in the PVP zone that everybody hates, they're going to ostracize you. Jeez, children on the playground figure this part out.
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And that's why you're not going to get a dialogue going with the developers about this. The developers aren't PVPers if you insult them, call them names, name demands, throw tantrums, and basically act like that idiot in the PVP zone that everybody hates, they're going to ostracize you. Jeez, children on the playground figure this part out.
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I don't believe there is any tantrums thrown in this thread.
I know exactly what you mean about dealing with the infantile behavior of some.
I'd recommend a personal ostracism.
The /ignore usually works pretty well.
Turning off broadcast works wonders as well.
From my limited experience pvping upon my return.
Most of the asshattery is very limited as folks are just delighted and amazed that someone is in the zone to play with.
I'd love to see the rewards scalable along team size.
I think that's a capital idea and have stated so numerous times.
Rewards is how you encourage participation. Not nerfing.
I don't believe a forced ostracism is the solution, Hertz.
I understand the frustration.
Honestly, the best solution is to never reduce yourself to the level of an [censored].
I know it's hard. And I definitely didn't follow that advice when I first hit Warburg and was griefed for hours.
But you adapt.
There are always layers to gaming.
For some PvPers, they wanna pwn up. But not just defeat you, they want to humiliate you if you let them.
Don't let them.
Your response of, "gg", will win the broadcast pvp.
Remaining unflappable is epic win.
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For some PvPers, they wanna pwn up. But not just defeat you, they want to humiliate you if you let them.
Don't let them.
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A large number of players determined that the best way to achieve that goal was to avoid PvP. No one seemed to have a good story to sell to players why they should tolerate bad behavior when they could simply avoid it completely. That made advice such as the above lack a sizeable audience.
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For some PvPers, they wanna pwn up. But not just defeat you, they want to humiliate you if you let them.
Don't let them.
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A large number of players determined that the best way to achieve that goal was to avoid PvP. No one seemed to have a good story to sell to players why they should tolerate bad behavior when they could simply avoid it completely. That made advice such as the above lack a sizeable audience.
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Which is exactly why the rewards system fails.
If there were significant rewards then most peeps would hazard a journey into a zone.
They would then find that ignoring the idiots is easily achievable. They should be able to find someone that can tutor them so they can become survivable enough for their goals.
And then they would eventually find themselves in the situation where they crush the idiots, and that is one of the greatest things in video gaming. Regardless of genre.
However much immersion one can attain in PvE, dropping the PvP zone loudmouth is infinitely satisfying.
And I've seen players hand out fantastic rewards at the Arena.
Purple recipes.
50 million in inf.
Etc.
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For some PvPers, they wanna pwn up. But not just defeat you, they want to humiliate you if you let them.
Don't let them.
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A large number of players determined that the best way to achieve that goal was to avoid PvP. No one seemed to have a good story to sell to players why they should tolerate bad behavior when they could simply avoid it completely. That made advice such as the above lack a sizeable audience.
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Which is exactly why the rewards system fails.
If there were significant rewards then most peeps would hazard a journey into a zone.
They would then find that ignoring the idiots is easily achievable. They should be able to find someone that can tutor them so they can become survivable enough for their goals.
And then they would eventually find themselves in the situation where they crush the idiots, and that is one of the greatest things in video gaming. Regardless of genre.
However much immersion one can attain in PvE, dropping the PvP zone loudmouth is infinitely satisfying.
And I've seen players hand out fantastic rewards at the Arena.
Purple recipes.
50 million in inf.
Etc.
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The problem with this game design philosophy is that the amount of reward necessary to do this tends to be huge: it has to be equal to the normal level of PvE rewards available *plus* an additional bonus to compensate for people's innate dislike for the activity. That's why bribery tends not to work when attempted in so naked of a way: its intrinsicly unbalancing. Rewards can be adjusted to balance varying effort of activity that is otherwise (roughly) equally palatable, but rewards can only entice people to do what they don't want to do if those rewards are excessively high. And it includes the potential danger of setting off an upward spiral of rewards that have increasingly less meaning.
Its one thing to add rewards to PvP that equalize the reward system between PvP and PvE (assuming exploits are compensated for), because that's simply eliminating a PvP activity penalty. I'm generally in favor of that, at least in theory. But to then increase the PvP rewards until people who don't want to participate feel they have no choice but to do so because the rewards are simply too high to avoid is simply bad design in my opinion.
(This is irrelevant to *players* giving out large prizes, though. Players have to earn their prizes through some other means so by definition they can't "unbalance" the reward system no matter how large a set of prizes they give away for any activity. If they give out prizes for an activity that is out of whack with the rest of the game that will eventually self-correct by those players simply running out of rewards. So there's nothing intrinsicly wrong with that behavior except that its likely unsustainable on anything but a small scale.)
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And I've seen players hand out fantastic rewards at the Arena.
Purple recipes.
50 million in inf.
Etc.
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If you have to bribe someone with rewards of that magnitude just to get them into the activity - then you still haven't solved the problem that some do not find the activity enjoyable in itself.
Although to you it seems self-evident that a small exposure to PvP would be all that is needed to demonstrate to everyone else what enjoyment can be gained there - there will still be a significant number (note, I don't say majority or even sizable minority) who would only try the activity enough times to get the extremely good rewards and then quit. In the short run, you have their numbers to boost the activity, but then lose them later.
Caveat: I don't enjoy head-to-head competition in any game - never liked it even as a child. I think that there may be some number of players in this game who are like me and will never choose to engage in head-to-head competition without a bribe so large as to trivialize any other rewards given in any other part of the game. The question to me might be whether City has attracted such a large proportion of those as to make the goal of attracting them to PvP worth the effort.
Arcanaville said this upthread:
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In PvE, individual critters don't change much, but there's an awful lot of metagaming in the PvE side of the house. Some people like just casually logging in, fighting a couple of Skulls and then logging out. Others aren't crazy about the individual fights, but like reading the story: the foes are the background to the missions. Others see the combat as a hurdle to overcome while developing their characters. Some just play dress-up and the combat is really a form of theater for their characters. Some badge hunt, some collect influence, some treat missions as social events - the metagaming aspects of the PvE game are such that they don't require each individual fight with each individual critter to bear the full weight of keeping the player's attention.
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I'm not saying the issue is a "zero sum" game. To me, the fact that there is still enough of a PvP community out there to spawn a discussion this long indicates that making PvP fun for some players is a worthy goal. This calm rational discussion is just the kind of thing that will help make that happen.
EDIT: Arcana was obviously typing out the same thought about huge rewards at the same time I was - and saying it better. So "ditto" her post.
Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!
Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon
"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."
I enjoy playing villains. In fact, I almost entirely play villains. I would really like extra endurance for my characters. The only way to get extra endurance redside is to PvP. I haven't PvPed yet. So, no, extra rewards won't entice me to PvP. In fact, you could offer to pay me $10 million dollars, and I still wouldn't enter a PvP zone.
@Celestial Lord and @Celestial Lord Too
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Although to you it seems self-evident that a small exposure to PvP would be all that is needed to demonstrate to everyone else what enjoyment can be gained there - there will still be a significant number (note, I don't say majority or even sizable minority) who would only try the activity enough times to get the extremely good rewards and then quit. In the short run, you have their numbers to boost the activity, but then lose them later.
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Consider the PvE game. How many players team? Now, of them, how many form and lead teams? A much lower percentage in my experience. In between "teamers" and "soloers" there exist a significant number of players who bridge the gap as "followers." They'll join teams, they like playing in teams, but don't want to be in charge of them.
No amount of exposure to PvE converts large numbers of people from followers into leaders. They've just reached the limit of participation they find enjoyable, and attempting to "convert" them has a greater chance of backfiring than it does converting them.
I don't think there exists any reasonable way to "convert" more than a handful of people to liking PvP that were not already predisposed to like it in the first place. In this case, its not the players that need to be altered to match the activity, its the activity that needs to be changed to match the playerbase. Or at the very least, elements have to be added to it that expand the range of activities to include things other players want to do, but in a relatively integrated whole.
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I enjoy playing villains. In fact, I almost entirely play villains. I would really like extra endurance for my characters. The only way to get extra endurance redside is to PvP. I haven't PvPed yet. So, no, extra rewards won't entice me to PvP. In fact, you could offer to pay me $10 million dollars, and I still wouldn't enter a PvP zone.
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Yeah, but you're crazy, Cel.
Also, it isn't necessary to PvP to get that accolade. Simply sitting in the hospital afk will do the trick just as well. Well, unless you consider getting the Lanista badge PvP...
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
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[u]I created this thread because any dev response to anything PvP is older than 2 months and is in closed threads.
Hardly conducive to discussion.[u]
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*cough* *cough* Thread started less than a month ago.
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*cough, cough*.... That is not a "response." Nice try, though.
"The One"
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Infernus_Hades
The way you play changes your IO slotting..
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76 characters and Twenty-four 50s later, I still love this game.
AlienOne's Human-Form Warshade Guide (Old guide+New guide = 12,000+ views!)
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I enjoy playing villains. In fact, I almost entirely play villains. I would really like extra endurance for my characters. The only way to get extra endurance redside is to PvP. I haven't PvPed yet. So, no, extra rewards won't entice me to PvP. In fact, you could offer to pay me $10 million dollars, and I still wouldn't enter a PvP zone.
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Yeah, but you're crazy, Cel.
Also, it isn't necessary to PvP to get that accolade. Simply sitting in the hospital afk will do the trick just as well. Well, unless you consider getting the Lanista badge PvP...
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And the reason I have seen many posters complain in this very forum about that accolade?
Because they are so afraid of getting defeated and smack talked in a PvP zone that they won't step in long enough to learn that there is a safe place they can sit for the accolade. They don't know anyone who PvPs, so they haven't heard that. They don't hang around in the PvP sections of the boards, so they aren't reading this post.
The only thing that will get people like that to try PvP is some update sitting on the updater that says, "New PvP stuff added that makes it easier to get into without getting pwned!"
The only thing that will get them to stay is being able to play their first few times without getting pwned. Defeated is fine, but pwned by definition means someone is basically trying to drive them away.
Try to drive someone like that away, and you will likely succeed.
If code can help, I really think it needs to include some kind of skills matching and 'no effort teaming'.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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The only thing that will get them to stay is being able to play their first few times without getting pwned. Defeated is fine, but pwned by definition means someone is basically trying to drive them away.
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This is very much true. Every time this conversation comes around, I use my own start as an example.
Never been in PvP before. Had the game maybe a month. I walk into Siren's Call the first time, looking around. Wow, a new zone. Okay, I have twenty seconds now before PvP starts. Hey, I wonder what this contact-like guy over here is.
Timer reaches 0.
TP Foe'd out of the base.
Stunned.
Placated.
Assassin Strike.
Trash talked.
Dead and insulted 35 seconds after entering the zone for the first time, with no way to respond or even be aware of what happened. I didn't even look at PvP again for months, and it took multiple friends begging me to even step foot near it again.
If you want new people to get involved in PvP, it has to actually be vaguely fun. Not just a handful of ultra-skilled veterans curbstomping 99% of the rest of the population. No reward is going to counteract it not being fun. It'll just make the people who don't have fun moan and complain about how they're forced to PvP to keep up.
After skimming the thread, I guess I'm the only one who didn't notice "dialogue" when they first saw the thread.
Sniffle...
Darktide, wherefore art thou, Darktide
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but from what I remember from the I13 Beta these PvP changes were only to "prepare the battlefield" per say for more PvP work, not to promote it. Is that not what they said? There is, or was so far as I know, a PvP zone revamp coming, base PvP revamp, and all that jazz?
Or has that all changed? Is PvP in timeout?
Just wondering if more work is actually coming or if the developers have just said, "[censored] it."
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i13 had mechanical groundwork. They determined that lack of it would sabotage any other efforts the might try to make. i14 saw introduction of new rewards into PVP. It's not "the major focus of development", but one can hardly claim it's being ignored.