There needs to be player/dev PvP dialogue.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The only thing that will get them to stay is being able to play their first few times without getting pwned. Defeated is fine, but pwned by definition means someone is basically trying to drive them away.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very much true. Every time this conversation comes around, I use my own start as an example.

Never been in PvP before. Had the game maybe a month. I walk into Siren's Call the first time, looking around. Wow, a new zone. Okay, I have twenty seconds now before PvP starts. Hey, I wonder what this contact-like guy over here is.

Timer reaches 0.
TP Foe'd out of the base.
Stunned.
Placated.
Assassin Strike.
Trash talked.
Dead and insulted 35 seconds after entering the zone for the first time, with no way to respond or even be aware of what happened. I didn't even look at PvP again for months, and it took multiple friends begging me to even step foot near it again.

If you want new people to get involved in PvP, it has to actually be vaguely fun. Not just a handful of ultra-skilled veterans curbstomping 99% of the rest of the population. No reward is going to counteract it not being fun. It'll just make the people who don't have fun moan and complain about how they're forced to PvP to keep up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, those people aren't "ultra-skilled" as you put it. They just learned a quick gimmick that works well on those new to PvP. Once you learn a few standard PvP tricks of your own, things like TP foe aren't that big of a deal.

---

"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict

[ QUOTE ]
The problem with this game design philosophy is that the amount of reward necessary to do this tends to be huge: it has to be equal to the normal level of PvE rewards available *plus* an additional bonus to compensate for people's innate dislike for the activity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah it might be better to, oh I don't know, make it FUN.
When PVP is well implemented (a new player can jump right in, and after a brief learning curve, actually feel like they can contribute in a positive way, while still giving an edge to experienced players) then you don't need to entice people quite so strongly. The problem with PVP in this game is that it's been tacked on as an afterthought since the beginning, so no real effort has gone into making it fun.

I do think the I-13 changes were a small step in the right direction by making it somewhat more accessible for new players, but it is by no means well implemented yet.

---

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The only thing that will get them to stay is being able to play their first few times without getting pwned. Defeated is fine, but pwned by definition means someone is basically trying to drive them away.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is very much true. Every time this conversation comes around, I use my own start as an example.

Never been in PvP before. Had the game maybe a month. I walk into Siren's Call the first time, looking around. Wow, a new zone. Okay, I have twenty seconds now before PvP starts. Hey, I wonder what this contact-like guy over here is.

Timer reaches 0.
TP Foe'd out of the base.
Stunned.
Placated.
Assassin Strike.
Trash talked.
Dead and insulted 35 seconds after entering the zone for the first time, with no way to respond or even be aware of what happened. I didn't even look at PvP again for months, and it took multiple friends begging me to even step foot near it again.

If you want new people to get involved in PvP, it has to actually be vaguely fun. Not just a handful of ultra-skilled veterans curbstomping 99% of the rest of the population. No reward is going to counteract it not being fun. It'll just make the people who don't have fun moan and complain about how they're forced to PvP to keep up.

[/ QUOTE ]

Unfortunately, those people aren't "ultra-skilled" as you put it. They just learned a quick gimmick that works well on those new to PvP. Once you learn a few standard PvP tricks of your own, things like TP foe aren't that big of a deal.

[/ QUOTE ]

But generally still not a whole heck of alot of fun.

And really most people never stuck around long enough to learn the "gimmicks". They just got frustrated and left, which is a sign of a badly designed system.

PVP in this game is weak, has always been weak. There needs to be a good way for players to jump into PVP easily, and make it fun.

---

One thing is for sure, the learning curve for PvP in this game was definitely higher than others. Figuring out how things worked and how to contribute vs PvE was considerably different. However, with the way they altered powers in addition to other changes in i13, it feels like they took a step in the opposite direction in making it more accessable.

The most easily sought venue for PvP (zones) was often the least newbie friendly. Likewise, the least accessable (in arena with experienced players) was much more forgiving and beneficial.

---

"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict

[ QUOTE ]
One thing is for sure, the learning curve for PvP in this game was definitely higher than others. Figuring out how things worked and how to contribute vs PvE was considerably different. However, with the way they altered powers in addition to other changes in i13, it feels like they took a step in the opposite direction in making it more accessable.


[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this. A new player to PVP might actually have a chance to fight back now in PVP where before I saw people go down before even realizing what happened. People have that happen to them more than a couple of times, they will leave the zone and not come back.

I'm no stranger to PVP, and I can say pre-I13 PVP in this game was hopeless which is why only a small insular subset of the community engaged in it at all.

There needs to be a better learning curve for PVP, something that lets players learn by doing without it being frustrating and discouraging. Other games generally manage this for the most part. NCSoft has even managed it themselves before. But CoV simply does not have it.

I think they're better off re-building PVP from the ground up. These tweaks and patches to an inherently poor design may get rid of some of the bumps, but do nothing to address the design beneath.

---

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
One thing is for sure, the learning curve for PvP in this game was definitely higher than others. Figuring out how things worked and how to contribute vs PvE was considerably different. However, with the way they altered powers in addition to other changes in i13, it feels like they took a step in the opposite direction in making it more accessable.


[/ QUOTE ]

I disagree with this. A new player to PVP might actually have a chance to fight back now in PVP where before I saw people go down before even realizing what happened. People have that happen to them more than a couple of times, they will leave the zone and not come back.

I'm no stranger to PVP, and I can say pre-I13 PVP in this game was hopeless which is why only a small insular subset of the community engaged in it at all.

There needs to be a better learning curve for PVP, something that lets players learn by doing without it being frustrating and discouraging. Other games generally manage this for the most part. NCSoft has even managed it themselves before. But CoV simply does not have it.

I think they're better off re-building PVP from the ground up. These tweaks and patches to an inherently poor design may get rid of some of the bumps, but do nothing to address the design beneath.

[/ QUOTE ]

Considering the gap between good builds and not so good builds has gotten wider with i13, I'd say the chances of them actually achieving victory are slimmer than ever if they were new. Battles might last longer, but the actual chance for victory has gone down. It just means they die slower.

Combine that with powers working considerably different than how they do in PvE (mez resist for example) and it isn't uncommon to see players get frustrated with things being so different.

---

"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict

[ QUOTE ]
Considering the gap between good builds and not so good builds has gotten wider with i13, I'd say the chances of them actually achieving victory are slimmer than ever if they were new. Battles might last longer, but the actual chance for victory has gone down. It just means they die slower.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, before new players had no chance of victory because they left in frustration before they could work out the gimmicks. Dying slower means you have time to figure out why you're not winning. Not hitting often enough? You need more +ACC. Getting hurt to easily? More +Health. I'm simplifying but there's room for an analytical process now where before the "WHAM: DEAD" system didn't really allow for.

[ QUOTE ]
Combine that with powers working considerably different than how they do in PvE (mez resist for example) and it isn't uncommon to see players get frustrated with things being so different.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well there I will agree with you. Again, I think PVP is inherently flawed. However I still believe that eliminating the gimmicky play, especially movement based powers, was a step in the right direction. It was, by no means, a panacea.

Again, I don't think anything but a complete re-engineering of PVP from the ground up will save PVP in this game. It seems destined, at best, to remain a sideshow to the main PVE game.

I don't mind this game being a PVE game, I have other games I can go to for PVP. What I don't like is the kludgy tack on that PVP always has been. I think they should fix PVP, and do it right, or just admit it was a mistake and get rid of it all together.

However, given the choice of I-12 PVP vs I-13, I've got to say I13 is the lesser evil.

---

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Considering the gap between good builds and not so good builds has gotten wider with i13, I'd say the chances of them actually achieving victory are slimmer than ever if they were new. Battles might last longer, but the actual chance for victory has gone down. It just means they die slower.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, before new players had no chance of victory because they left in frustration before they could work out the gimmicks. Dying slower means you have time to figure out why you're not winning. Not hitting often enough? You need more +ACC. Getting hurt to easily? More +Health. I'm simplifying but there's room for an analytical process now where before the "WHAM: DEAD" system didn't really allow for.

[ QUOTE ]
Combine that with powers working considerably different than how they do in PvE (mez resist for example) and it isn't uncommon to see players get frustrated with things being so different.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well there I will agree with you. Again, I think PVP is inherently flawed. However I still believe that eliminating the gimmicky play, especially movement based powers, was a step in the right direction. It was, by no means, a panacea.

Again, I don't think anything but a complete re-engineering of PVP from the ground up will save PVP in this game. It seems destined, at best, to remain a sideshow to the main PVE game.

I don't mind this game being a PVE game, I have other games I can go to for PVP. What I don't like is the kludgy tack on that PVP always has been. I think they should fix PVP, and do it right, or just admit it was a mistake and get rid of it all together.

However, given the choice of I-12 PVP vs I-13, I've got to say I13 is the lesser evil.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now now, a new person had a chance at victory, it was just lower than someone who had been there for longer. After all, we were all new at one point.

You're making it sound as though one couldn't analyze why they lost after they've been defeated. It wasn't hard to figure out that if I stood still in a zone on my blaster, the chances of me getting AS'd went up considerably. Likewise, when a BS/Regen supersped past me and suddenly I see "CRITICAL!" and I'm dead, it didn't take much to look at the combat log and see which power he used to cause that much damage. It teaches one REAL fast to stay away from anything melee when you don't have the HP to handle it.

If you were dying very quickly, you either weren't moving or weren't using defensive options available to you, such as self heals. Once you had that step down, the rest was practice. TP Foe? Bringing oranges help immensely.

And I disagree that movement powers needed to go. Those weren't gimmicky, those were actually part of the experience and tactics within PvP. If the same mechanics were to be placed on PvE, people would be outraged at how they had been "nerfed" because some others were overperforming in the game.

---

"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict

There is a disconnect between people with a PvP mindset and people who do not possess that mindset.

True PvP'ers step into a PvP zone, it goes "WHAM!DEAD" and they go "Hmmmm, why did that happen? Wow, PvP in this game is sure fast and 3D! Perhaps more movement? Perhaps I should send a tell to one of those guys after I zone out. Maybe hit some websites for some guides?"

True PvEr's never set foot in the zone, or they just lie in the hospital and alt/tab out to get a badge.

The borderline/curious/recruitables go, "WTH!??? Screw that, I'm never trying that again." And you have lost a customer. And I beleive this is the majority experience.

To be fair, many of those people would quit PvE just as fast, if the first 3 times they tried to hunt Hellions in Atlas Park they got 2 shotted.

Dying slower is a step in the right direction, IMHO. And all the other changes cascade from there.

The answer to powers working differently is dual builds, but unfortunately that doesn't help the right people. Newbies don't know how to build a PvP build.

---

Story Arcs I created:

Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!

Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!

Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!

[ QUOTE ]
Some just play dress-up and the combat is really a form of theater for their characters.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks! I never really could put a handle on my play-style, but that's pretty much it in a nutshell!

I often wonder if I'm the only one that talks to NPCs and fires off my battle-cry when I'm soloing. OK, I'm sick I need help...

---

Dec out.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Some just play dress-up and the combat is really a form of theater for their characters.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks! I never really could put a handle on my play-style, but that's pretty much it in a nutshell!

I often wonder if I'm the only one that talks to NPCs and fires off my battle-cry when I'm soloing. OK, I'm sick I need help...

[/ QUOTE ]

You're not. Well not the only one who does those things, I mean. I am not going to comment on your health...

---

total kick to the gut

This is like having Ra's Al Ghul show up at your birthday party.

[ QUOTE ]
What they implemented was a mistake.
And, sure, they may hold onto this mistake stubbornly as they have done with many other things, but it's a mistake nonetheless.

[/ QUOTE ]

On a more on-topic note, I have to agree. I'm not a "serious" PvPer, but being an eclectic person I like to poke my nose in everything at least a little. I think if the devs were trying to get borderline people interested, the worst thing they could have done is have your powers work SO differently. I think it's less perceived as "Oh, boy, something different!" than "Oh, crap...nothing I know already works right. I have to learn all over again."

Or maybe if they'd scaled UP it would have been better. I know the numbers not at all, but I've been in my SG's Arena ladder tourny for about a year, and I've never seen so many 0-0 ties as I have recently. It's like fighting in mud and "hitting like a girl" (no offense to the female gender meant ). This kind of thing isn't going to appeal to the PvEer who's been rolling easily over the standard mobs. It's not more challenging, it's more like being handicapped.

I also have to go along with Arcanaville...just the fighting itself isn't going to get population into the zones. It's got to have a certain PvE "fun" factor, or most will just ignore them. Unfortunately I have no suggestions on how to do that (but saw several good ideas in this thread).

---

Dec out.

TLR I hate PvP in every game.

I have tried PvP in this game probably 10-50 times. When PvP was first introduced to the game, I didn't really understand it.
I thought it was gonna be like Street Fighter II Champion Ed. or like Mortal Kombat. Because to me, that is PvP.
I found out the hard way, PvP in MMO isn't the same. The first time I died in like 5 seconds to some guy who obviously knew what the hell he was doing, and I thought to myself. Hmm. They should have a newbies to PvP zone, or like a Danger Room environment for newbie pvpers.

Anyways, I hated PvP at that time so I never went there cept for badges.

Couple of months later I started playing with someone who lubbed pvp... so I gave it another try. This time I was teamed up. Teamed up with people who did not suck at pvp, as a matter of fact I think they are borderline griefers in pvp. They are the people who will kill just 1 guy over and over til he gets POed and leaves the zone.

This was boring as hell to me. What fun is it to do that? None. So I was like um... so this is what yall like to do? /em bored

So I left... and didn't return for a long long time. Everytime I return to PvP in this game I just don't have any fun. The time before last time, some jack*** said I should get ***ed and I was like??? And this guy went on to say some of the most rude stuff I have ever read on the interwebz and tbh, I quit playing the whole game for awhile after that.

I really think they should put effort into making the pvp zones awesome for people who actually like pvp... and stop putting effort into trying to make someone like me... like pvp. There is nothing they can do that will make me like pvp.

"Never say Never?"

If they would just get their stuff together and pimp out the pvp zones for hardcore pvpers I think we could get more subscriptions. I am all for dev time for pvp as long as they are focusing on the right people. PvPers.

:edit:
I have 6 50s pimped out for PvP. So It is not like I don;t know what to have or how to do it. I just don't enjoy it at all. Plus my husband is the one who loves pvp and he hooked up some of my alts with purps and stuffs.

---

[ QUOTE ]
There is a disconnect between people with a PvP mindset and people who do not possess that mindset.

True PvP'ers step into a PvP zone, it goes "WHAM!DEAD" and they go "Hmmmm, why did that happen? Wow, PvP in this game is sure fast and 3D! Perhaps more movement? Perhaps I should send a tell to one of those guys after I zone out. Maybe hit some websites for some guides?"

True PvEr's never set foot in the zone, or they just lie in the hospital and alt/tab out to get a badge.

The borderline/curious/recruitables go, "WTH!??? Screw that, I'm never trying that again." And you have lost a customer. And I beleive this is the majority experience.

To be fair, many of those people would quit PvE just as fast, if the first 3 times they tried to hunt Hellions in Atlas Park they got 2 shotted.

Dying slower is a step in the right direction, IMHO. And all the other changes cascade from there.

The answer to powers working differently is dual builds, but unfortunately that doesn't help the right people. Newbies don't know how to build a PvP build.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think Kitsune has captured the basic issue with some of the PvP discussins that have been going on for years here. And it repeats what I was trying to say upthread, just reworded.

The people who have the PvP mindset & playstyle that have been effective here are those in the first group Kitsune described. They are so inclined to PvP that a quick death (or 2 or 3 or 12) just means that they need to figure out what went wrong and then work to fix it.

For the third group Kitsune described, those same quick deaths probably mean something more like "I suck at this. I don't like to feel like I suck at something. I'm gong back to something I already understand and find fun in the game(PvE - remember that we all PvE first long before anyone can get into any of the PvP play)".

---

Altoholic - but a Blaster at Heart!

Originally Posted by SpyralPegacyon

"You gave us a world where we could fly. I can't thank you enough for that."

Althouh I agree that making PvP and PvE powers work differently is problematic for new players, I paradoxically think it is a good move, at least in theory.

It allows the Devs to rebalance PvP until they get it right, without changing how those same powers work in PvE.

I think one thing they need to do is change the NPC critters that populate PvP zones so that they conform to those rules.

---

Story Arcs I created:

Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!

Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!

Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!

I would love it if NPC critters in PvP zones took the traits of PvPers and lol did that stuff to people.

Have some guy just stand out there as bait, and then have 10 guys swamp the PvP guy when he comes in for the easy kill

---

[ QUOTE ]
True PvP'ers step into a PvP zone, it goes "WHAM!DEAD" and they go "Hmmmm, why did that happen? Wow, PvP in this game is sure fast and 3D! Perhaps more movement? Perhaps I should send a tell to one of those guys after I zone out. Maybe hit some websites for some guides?"


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a PVP junkie in other games, from the tactical RVR of WAR to the twitch-fast high-speed deathmatch PVP of Exteel. I don't know if that makes me a "true PVPer" with a "true PVP mindset" in your definition, but PVP in this game just left me feeling frustrated.

Now, it's not that I never won or anything, because I did. I organized a pretty big Independence Day Smackdown in Bloodybay on Protector several years back, and lead a full team of Villains to victory against a full team of defending heroes. We fought our way as far into the hero base as we could without getting droned. (and were disappointed we couldn't actually capture it)

But by and large, the PVP in this game SUCKED. It was gimmicky, it left little room for trying new things, it was very much who gets their uber attack chain off first and then it was over. Battles were TOO SHORT to be fun. It was over, win or lose, before I really got a chance to enjoy the fight. And if you do lose, it takes too long to get back into the battle in anything but an arena battle which makes the PVP zones worthless.

And that's boring.

And it's not that PVP in this game sure is "fast and 3D!", Exteel (another NC Soft title) is one of the twitchiest fast paced 3D PVP games out there, and it's about 1000x more fun than CoX PVP.

Now, I'm not an "achiever" mindset, I'm not out for badges, or XP, or drops... I'm the type of player who wants challenges. But fun challenges. Spending all that time working on a build, reading guides, figuring out PVP for a battle that lasts for 5-10 seconds just simply isn't worth the effort on my part.

I'm looking very forward to Jumpgate Evolution and Global Agenda for my new PVP games. Unless CoX really figures out a way to make their PVP as fun as other PVP games on the market, I think I'll continue to just ignore it.

---

Back before I13, one of the complaints on the boards was in fact that PvP was too fast. Everybody except Tankers was getting 1-3 shot.

Obviously, some people liked the speed, and others did not. For now, it seems the did nots have one.

It seems apparent to me that a lot of the changes in I13 were aimed at making PvP battles longer.

Did that help the situation in your particular case?

In any case, if you were in charge, what would be the next step?

---

Story Arcs I created:

Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!

Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!

Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!

[ QUOTE ]
Back before I13, one of the complaints on the boards was in fact that PvP was too fast. Everybody except Tankers was getting 1-3 shot.

Obviously, some people liked the speed, and others did not. For now, it seems the did nots have one.

It seems apparent to me that a lot of the changes in I13 were aimed at making PvP battles longer.

Did that help the situation in your particular case?

In any case, if you were in charge, what would be the next step?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've already posted on this, but to sum up my previous points, I think I-13 changes were a small step in the right direction, but I think that PVP is still rather poorly implemented.

Personally, I'd give up on trying to make PVE and PVP even be the same system in this game (since it obviously doesn't work) and rebuild PVP from scratch with a system that's designed, from the ground up, to be PVP, rather than trying to tack PVP onto a system that was designed around PVE (and is actually very well implemented for PVE).

The best PVP games out there were designed with PVP in mind. This game was designed with PVE in mind and tried to slap PVP on, and as a result it's been slipshod since the beginning.

Maybe they'll surprise me and continue to tweak PVP to get it so that it's fun for new players and experienced players alike. It's just not there yet and I have my doubts that it ever will be.

My current plan is just to wait for Global Agenda to be released and play Exteel in the interim (since it's free).

---

A lot of people say the phrase, "Designed from the ground up to be PvP" but they never explain what that means.

It seems like the difference between adapting an existing system to PvP and building such a system from the ground up is purely the number of whiny posts on the forums.

What would be the difference between what we have now and a system that was designed ground up for PvP? Would some ATs not exist? Would it be twitch based? Would there be mezz resistance or protection? Is Loot necessary?

For instance, WAR or WOW. What would you take from our(old or new) PvP to add to theirs; what would would you take from them to add to ours?

---

Story Arcs I created:

Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!

Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!

Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!

[ QUOTE ]
What would be the difference between what we have now and a system that was designed ground up for PvP?

[/ QUOTE ]

Every power and ability within the game would be designed on the assumption that it would be used against another player, and would not be added unless that addition was fair. In addition, the game mechanics would favor proportionality, without any positive feedback or accelerating benefit curves. Finally, numerical balance would be the overriding design priority, because numerical imbalances cannot be moderated when placed in the hands of players.

On top of that, every archetype or class in the game would have to satisfy two separate balance constraints: their contribution to PvE performance (which would be a combination of solo and teamed) would have to be similar, *and* their contribution to PvP kills (depending on the game either solo or within teams or both) would have to be similar. PvP is dominated by singular kills while PvE is dominated by continuous kills and those represent completely different balance constraints (to take an extreme position: a power that can one-shot anything short of AVs and GMs but recharges in ten minutes is a horrible PvE weapon but a fantastic PvP weapon).


If the original designers were actually serious about PvP from the start, they would have severely curtailed high-order AoEs and the balancing problems involved with them, they would have used multiplicative stacking in most of the stacking algorithms, they would have generated a better tohit resolution algorithm, they would have dampened high-order travel powers during combat, they would not have made melee-only archetypes, and they would have calibrated player health against player attacks and not just critter attacks. They would have factored in PvP issues with respect to attribute caps. And they would have put loads of thought into the effect of heals and regeneration on damage mitigation under PvP conditions.

---

[Guide to Defense] [Scrapper Secondaries Comparison] [Archetype Popularity Analysis]

In one little corner of the universe, there's nothing more irritating than a misfile...
(Please support the best webcomic about a cosmic universal realignment by impaired angelic interference resulting in identity crisis angst. Or I release the pigmy water thieves.)

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of people say the phrase, "Designed from the ground up to be PvP" but they never explain what that means.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's a design philosophy. When we create Combat System X, we're designing it around fighting other players. If we already have Combat System Y designed around PVE and decide to just open it up to PVP, then there are going to be problems because the system is being shoehorned to do something outside of what it was designed to do.

[ QUOTE ]
It seems like the difference between adapting an existing system to PvP and building such a system from the ground up is purely the number of whiny posts on the forums.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks, maybe I'll just take a swipe at you for no good reason sometime.

[ QUOTE ]
What would be the difference between what we have now and a system that was designed ground up for PvP? Would some ATs not exist? Would it be twitch based? Would there be mezz resistance or protection? Is Loot necessary?

[/ QUOTE ]

Beats me, I'm not a game designer. I don't NEED to be a game designer to see that the system isn't working. I also don't NEED to be the one to figure out how to fix it. You asked me what I'd do if I were in charge. I'd scrap PVP and start over, because the existing system doesn't work. Now maybe that's not the only approach or even the best approach, I don't know. But I do know that the system as it stands isn't very enticing.

[ QUOTE ]
For instance, WAR or WOW. What would you take from our(old or new) PvP to add to theirs; what would would you take from them to add to ours?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd take the FUN from War's and add it to our unfun.
I never played WOW and never will, so I can't comment on that.

As for anything more specific, I'm not a game designer as I said. Anything I said at this point about cherry picking features to try and create a mish-mash game would probably be completely wrongheaded because I readily admit that I don't know how to program a PVP game system or what it should or should not contain. However, I AM able to easily and quickly discern how much FUN I am having when playing any given system and can see if my fellow players are also having fun or not by if they stick around through a 4 hour keep battle (for example) or leave after 2 minutes in Siren's Call.

Considering that PVP has consistently failed to entice any significant number of it's player base into playing it, regardless of rewards, I don't really see how an argument can be made that the PVP is well-conceived or executed. Obviously the 80% rule should apply here as well as in other aspects of the game, shouldn't it? An MMO shouldn't design a system around a tiny subset of its other players?

People don't PVP in this game because the PVP isn't fun. That's the bottom line. Until they fix that, however it needs to be done, that won't change (and maybe not even then, since PVP already has such a bad rep amongst most of the players).

---

I've developed my own kind of fun in PvP zones. Since I'll never be good enough at PvP to actually win a fight, I've taken to seeing just how long I can stay alive, and I don't count time in a base. As soon as I see a potential combatant, I break off what I'm doing and high tail. It's actually pretty funny watching how dedicated most of the PvPers I see get to hunting down the target that only runs away.

---

The Abrams is one of the most effective war machines on the planet. - R. Lee Ermy.

Q: How do you wreck an Abrams?

A: You crash into another one.

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
What would be the difference between what we have now and a system that was designed ground up for PvP?

[/ QUOTE ]

Every power and ability within the game would be designed on the assumption that it would be used against another player, and would not be added unless that addition was fair. In addition, the game mechanics would favor proportionality, without any positive feedback or accelerating benefit curves. Finally, numerical balance would be the overriding design priority, because numerical imbalances cannot be moderated when placed in the hands of players.

On top of that, every archetype or class in the game would have to satisfy two separate balance constraints: their contribution to PvE performance (which would be a combination of solo and teamed) would have to be similar, *and* their contribution to PvP kills (depending on the game either solo or within teams or both) would have to be similar. PvP is dominated by singular kills while PvE is dominated by continuous kills and those represent completely different balance constraints (to take an extreme position: a power that can one-shot anything short of AVs and GMs but recharges in ten minutes is a horrible PvE weapon but a fantastic PvP weapon).


If the original designers were actually serious about PvP from the start, they would have severely curtailed high-order AoEs and the balancing problems involved with them, they would have used multiplicative stacking in most of the stacking algorithms, they would have generated a better tohit resolution algorithm, they would have dampened high-order travel powers during combat, they would not have made melee-only archetypes, and they would have calibrated player health against player attacks and not just critter attacks. They would have factored in PvP issues with respect to attribute caps. And they would have put loads of thought into the effect of heals and regeneration on damage mitigation under PvP conditions.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the intelligent version of what I was trying to say.

---

[ QUOTE ]
Thanks, maybe I'll just take a swipe at you for no good reason sometime.


[/ QUOTE ]

I wasn't swiping at you, Smurch. I meant it literally: if we were to make all of the changes to PvP necessary for it to end up similar to Arcanaville's description, there would be a LOT of whiny forum posts. Start off with a new game, and you'd have fewer whiny posts because there are no preset expectations.

[ QUOTE ]
(and maybe not even then, since PVP already has such a bad rep amongst most of the players).

[/ QUOTE ]

I have often suspected that you could drop a group of players into a perfectly balanced game and they'd never know it, because they would focus on what other players do that they can't, blame build for deficiencies in their skill, and clamor for 'theme' based buffs to already balanced classes.

Arcanaville's post gives a lot of food for thought. I wonder if it's possible to recreate City PvP as she describes, and how it would be received if it were handed over whole cloth. If it is what the Devs are aiming for and they are adding pieces of such a system a bit at a time and gathering data before moving forward, it might be appreciated if they said so straight out.

They've hinted that there are a lot more PvP improvements to come, but we'll see. With the attitudes of some players, they might decide to leave what they have alone rather than garner more ill will by trying to fix any problems.

---

Story Arcs I created:

Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!

Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!

Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!