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But what I do have trouble with are people who who cry for villains to have access to all CoH zones but then turn right around and scream bloody murder when someone suggests heroes get access to all CoV ATs and/or Powersets.
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Zones are one thing. AT's are another. You see the same bloody murder cries when a villain is looking for Hero AT's and powersets.
I for one would LOVE to have my Blasters go rogue, or to be able have a villain 'troller.
AT's are unique. Zones are generic.
For the record, I am all for tearing down the false walls.
"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
QR
I was just having some fun EG.
I would love to play my brutes in CoH and my blasters in CoV. I just don't think a total re-write of the game is feasible.
Maybe in CoH2: The Search for more Lewt
Clouded is sorta right, there are a lot of walls that sadly should never have been up upon the creation of CoV. If they ever make a City of Heroes 2, then villains should be in it at release and mingled the right way.
I'm not against all the mingling and stuff but it should have been done the right way first, as such we sorta have to pay for it now and reasonably the devs just dont have the power to make 16 or so hero zones useful to villains anymore then the 6 or 7 we have to for heroes. 
I've been an advocate of this idea for a very long time now and have suggested several zones, complete with contacts and lore to add including:
Paths of Glory: Sewers for Villains
The Five: Origin and Mercenary Contacts for Villains
Terra Muerta: A Danger Zone
Bram's Pond: A Danger Zone
and The Vile Fleet: A Danger Zone
I believe we really need more variety so, I'll /sign this as well.
More zones that Villains can access is a great idea.
Here are some Zone ideas by other forum posters.
Villain only Zone Ideas
New villain content: their own Paragon City. by james_joyce
New Villainside Zone(s) by Prof_Backfire
idea for a new cov zone! by Quincy_Archer
More Zones for Villains by CaerArianrhold
Co-op Zone Ideas
Moon Hazard Zone by Golden_Ace
Underwater Zones by Golden_Ace
New Starting Zone for CoV by silver_omega & Perfect_Pain
Villains in the sewers by gameboy1234
cthulhu ph'tagen: The Island by Iannis
Open shadow shard to vills by brewha
Competitive Zone Ideas
The Great Ziggursky Prison Battle by Kenteko
Hazard Zone Idea by Silverspar
Wow, that's one heck of a great compilation! Now if only the devs would look at them. 
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I know you can't just add new zones without some lore...
[/ QUOTE ]
How about, there are still four uncharted islands on the map of the Rogue Isles?
That said, I wish Paragon City and the Rogue Isles could extend into outer areas, much like Croatoa is...at the border. Arachnos and Longbow are global operations...and yet Destined Ones and Heroes are not because we'd lose amnesty/the city needs us...
I think villains need enough zones that we don't have Grandville-ification for the others in the name of new content. With how things are turning out though, the rest of villain content will be in the name of cooperation, barring villain epic archetypes, which better be good in PvP or I'll blackmail Castle with those pictures of him and Luminara...
it is a great compilation. You should have it stickied. Kudos
GA
[color=gold][b][size=5]♪ Sometimes you feel like a Tank, Sometimes you don't! ♪[/size][/color][/b]
[url=http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=114726][color=black][b][size=5]Moon [color=red]Hazard [color=black]Zone![/size][/color][/color][/color][/b][/url]
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QR
Well said Lothic.
I'm completely consistent.
All ATs; both sides
All zones; both sides
All sets; All appropriate ATs
Merge the markets.
Ethos is your choice, not your yoke.
Freedom, Mom, baseball and apple pie (or cherry if you prefer).
If you disagree you're a heathen commie who luvs terrorists! 
[/ QUOTE ]
No to everything but merging the markets.
Why? Because maybe I just don't want a damn MM asking me to help him team, or maybe I like my Scrapper being the #1 damage dealer on my team, rather than worrying over a Brute.
CoV and CoH ARE one game, but they're different pieces of that game. It's like one of those marble pastries that has a dark and a light side... They're the same pastry, but two VERY different things that should be kept apart.
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QR
Well said Lothic.
I'm completely consistent.
All ATs; both sides
All zones; both sides
All sets; All appropriate ATs
Merge the markets.
Ethos is your choice, not your yoke.
Freedom, Mom, baseball and apple pie (or cherry if you prefer).
If you disagree you're a heathen commie who luvs terrorists!
[/ QUOTE ]
No to everything but merging the markets.
Why? Because maybe I just don't want a damn MM asking me to help him team, or maybe I like my Scrapper being the #1 damage dealer on my team, rather than worrying over a Brute.
[/ QUOTE ]
You're already in that situation. All the new high level content is co-op. The barriers are breaking down. Let's blow them up.
[ QUOTE ]
CoV and CoH ARE one game, but they're different pieces of that game. It's like one of those marble pastries that has a dark and a light side... They're the same pastry, but two VERY different things that should be kept apart.
[/ QUOTE ]
They aren't very different. I was playing my Brute last night and I was struck with how darn close an experience to CoH it was. My team and I fought Carnies and CoT and Malta. Same crap I would be fighting over in Peregrine, just with a red and black background.
As a wise err....man said, "No..No different. Only different in your mind."
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
Thread has been stickied but there may be some merit to scrubbing and reposting with the main list as the OP, which can be edited and updated similar to the Guide to Guide sections.
Either way keep me posted if it changes.
Ex
Variety.
Level 2-5: Mercy Island. (Understandably.)
Level 5-10: Mercy Island, Port Oakes.
Level 10-15: Port Oakes, Cap au Diable.
Level 15-20: Cap au Diable, Mercy Island.
Level 20-25: Sharkhead Isle.
Level 25-30: Sharkhead Isle, Nerva Archipelago.
Level 30-40: Nerva Archipelago, St. Martial, Rikti War Zone
Level 40-50: St. Martial, Rikti War Zone
Two alternatives I'd suggest, both of which could be linked to the Black Helicopter line:
Cheap: Make a villain version of Boomtown. Scale the mobs in Boomtown up from 10-20 (now) to 20-30. Put two 20-25 and two 25-30 contacts there. Create a storyline explaining how Arachnos is digging into Boomtown trying to recover Nemesis artifacts from the original 3-way fight between Freedom Phalanx, Arachnos, and Nemesis back in the 1930s.
Better: Create a Hazard-like zone, level 20-30, of the island nation of West Libertalia. Create two 20-25 contacts, one from Ambassador Alawi's Arachnos-backed side, and one from the Sky Raiders' US-backed side, battling over West Libertalia's oil wealth. Create a 25-30 story arc, identical from both contacts except for the flavor text before and after the missions, in which players find out that the Banished Pantheon are sponsoring their own Superadine-fueled rebel army deep in the jungle, trying to secure West Libertalia because it's Adamastor's ancestral shrine. Final battle: player(s) with one boss-level (Family) Troll boss and one (boss-level) antique (Sky Raiders) Malta super-droid versus an Elite Boss level Avatar of Adamastor.
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Open all zones to both sides.
Create a new PvE structure that allows people to "fight" (as in oppose by means other than combat) the other faction.
Example, Longbow creates bases in all Villain zones and gives sabotage and liberation missions to heroes. Arachnos creates similar bases in Paragon and gives villains an opportunity to do what they do best.
[/ QUOTE ]
sounds like Warburg without the PvP. Not bad.
I still like the idea of taking unused and oft complained about zones away from heroes and giving them to villains. Yes, I would take Crey's Folly, Boomtown, Terra Volta over nothing any day of the week.
[/ QUOTE ]
As BAB said, extra zones isn't always a good thing for a game. It dilutes the population, creates dead spaces, etc. It DOES give a new and refreshing look, but often just adding new tilesets (where we spend the most of our time) is far more effective there too.
I can't fault the devs for the "Hollows" revision. Many people doing the trial encounter that... and it was NOT a good new user experience.
I would prefer that any revised zones (particularly all the hazard zones) be made somehow open to both sides, as you have suggested. That gives the game easy-to-reuse tilesets while giving the players more areas to explore. It does still dilute the population, though.
===
You also mentioned in another post the tearing down of 'false walls.' On principle, I agree with that. In practice, I've learned that many of those false walls are needed simply because the game doesn't have the kinds of "walls" that real life does to limit certain kinds of behaviors and interactions. Sometimes, to keep things more realistic, you need to insert rather artificial constructs.
I don't think the problem was the number of zones in CoH. It was that you where forced to go to them and the didn't alway directly connect to each other. For example a contact in Talos might give me a mission in Crey's. I have to tavel thought parts of thre zones to get from my contact to the mission.
The contacts for each zone should only give you missions for that zone. However they can be twiked to give you the option of being introduced to contacts in other zones. You could then go see that contact if you want to do missions in another zone. Also the way the newspaper/police scanner missions allow you to pick a new contact in the zone after a few missions is great.
My whole point is, I want more zones for CoV. More stuff to look at more stuff to do. I don't really like having alts all that much and as such I am currently only playing one AT per side. My MM has been the only charater that I have really play alot and I have had it since CoV launched. I would love for her to have more things to do and learn. Hopefully any new zones will be truly villainous.
-How about a mission where I pretend to be a good guy and trick two NPC heroes into thinking that the other is a villain and getting to watch them fight. I then step in and take out the winner.
-Maybe you can have a mission where I invade a longbow hospital and attack injured longbow that are laying in bed trying to recover. Other healthy longbow whould be trying to protect the injured of course.
Hero_of_Steel (kindly) linked to my thoughts on the subject, but I want to point out, since it's often overlooked, that making a hero zone available to villains doesn't necessarily mean PvP, co-op, or even competition. Villains could have their own instances of Paragon City where they'll never see a player Hero, and where contacts, zone events, and spawns can be tailored for villains.
Just thought I'd throw that out there since people always seem to get hung up on the, "but I don't want more PvP or co-op" thing when the idea of zone re-use is brought up.
bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-
ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!
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As BAB said, extra zones isn't always a good thing for a game. It dilutes the population, creates dead spaces, etc. It DOES give a new and refreshing look, but often just adding new tilesets (where we spend the most of our time) is far more effective there too.
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I usually love BaB's posts but I was upset to read his comments about "new exclusive villain zones". It IS true that extra zones may not be good but CoV absolutly needs new exclusive zones.
CoV have 6 zones that work for everyone, Grandville (which many complain lags too much to play within) and the co-op zone RWZ.
As interesting and different the zones are, they get very dull very quickly. There is not a "bright" zone like there is on CoH. Just because they are villains do not mean they all live in slums or gloomy neighborhoods. I would love to see the Villains get a "bright", "sleek" techy zone...but I digress...
CoH has way too many zones, they deffinatly do not need any more zones. They could deffinatly use re-vamps to some of the zones but no new ones.
Villains on the other hand get shafted. Many people I talk to on CoH side (in game) say that there isn't enough content on Villain side to keep thier attention. When they make these comments they cite chiefly lack of zones and lack of SF's being number one and two and in that order.
Some say (and I am sure some of the Devs agree) that the villains do not have the numbers to justify the time and money that would be needed to create exclusive zones. The problem with arguments like that is, if you keep ignoring the Villains then the numbers will keep dropping off as nothing new is added to pull people to play the villain side over the Hero side.
Now do not get me wrong, I understand that there will always be some players that will choose to play Villains over Heroes no matter what happens or doesn't happen. I am just saying that more content i.e. Zones and the contacts/etc. that come with the zones, would pull a lot more to play the Red side.
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Open all zones to both sides.
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I couldn't agree more. And I suggested a while ago that they give all ATs to both sides because it's the only way to make PvP "balanced." I understand the initial design of making CoV different, but if comics have villains with the title of "Dr." why can't a villain learn...oh, empathy? Why can't a hero be in charge of some new young recruits like...oh, masterminds? For all the complaints about being forced to follow Lord Recluse, and the freedom the hero side offers, how come no one thinks AT and power division is strange?
If it really is one game, as so many people are fond of saying whenever red side needs are brought up, then make all zones open to both factions. Give players PvP flags; on or off, change them as the whim suits you. Never want to PvP, don't turn it on.
Some mission doors could be changed. If my villain is going to a warehouse to do away with some Longbow, why is that warehouse not in the middle of Atlas Park, or Skyway, or some other "hero" zone?
Merge the markets, but only at a neutral location. Put one in an annex to Pocket D.
For all the crap flung at WoW, they did a lot of things right. Not only the things mentioned above, but also the mailing of stuff to alts.
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Give players PvP flags; on or off, change them as the whim suits you. Never want to PvP, don't turn it on.
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PvPers can't even fill the four zones they have.
That's not the point. It would be more realistic to see a hero and a villain going at it in the middle of PI, or GV, rather than tucked out of sight in the current PvP zones. You could watch, or join in. There could be big FFAs under the statue of Atlas if people wanted.
At least with the zones, ATs, and powers merged any new Issues would truly be for the One Game. No more crying that they got this and we didn't. No more players feeling like their side doesn't matter. No more players feeling like their side is the only side that matters. It really would be one game. It would level the playing field, so to speak.
Plus, it would probably make it easier to add future content. They could add any zones that they wanted, because they'd be open to everyone. The way it is now, they can't add an exclusive zone to either side because the other side would [censored] about it.
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Open all zones to both sides.
Create a new PvE structure that allows people to "fight" (as in oppose by means other than combat) the other faction.
Example, Longbow creates bases in all Villain zones and gives sabotage and liberation missions to heroes. Arachnos creates similar bases in Paragon and gives villains an opportunity to do what they do best.
[/ QUOTE ]
No.
Now, if neither side can battle each other, it DOES break immersion. Obviously no game will have absoloute immersion until we have full-fledged virtual reality, but that still doesn't mean games shouldn't try. If I see Mr. Evil robbing a bank I want to stop him. Comics are all about hero vs. villian, and having us in a giant, perpetual Pocket D really ruins that. Many other things break immersion, sure, but none to that level of stupidity. Besides, even if we have many non-immersive things what's the point in making it worse?
Having open-world PvP, sure. I'd love open-world PvP if every player was mature and fun. However, as we all know, that's a pipe dream. We'll be stuck with jerks, [censored], babies, and everything else that comes with giving players free-reign to harrass each other. I'm sure they could add more drones in all zones, but players will find a way. They always do.
In short, it would never work, unless we get a Dev who manages to think up the most balanced and fun open-world PvP ever, which sounds about as momentous sliced bread.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Open all zones to both sides.
Create a new PvE structure that allows people to "fight" (as in oppose by means other than combat) the other faction.
Example, Longbow creates bases in all Villain zones and gives sabotage and liberation missions to heroes. Arachnos creates similar bases in Paragon and gives villains an opportunity to do what they do best.
[/ QUOTE ]
No.
Now, if neither side can battle each other, it DOES break immersion. Obviously no game will have absoloute immersion until we have full-fledged virtual reality, but that still doesn't mean games shouldn't try. If I see Mr. Evil robbing a bank I want to stop him. Comics are all about hero vs. villian, and having us in a giant, perpetual Pocket D really ruins that. Many other things break immersion, sure, but none to that level of stupidity. Besides, even if we have many non-immersive things what's the point in making it worse?
Having open-world PvP, sure. I'd love open-world PvP if every player was mature and fun. However, as we all know, that's a pipe dream. We'll be stuck with jerks, [censored], babies, and everything else that comes with giving players free-reign to harrass each other. I'm sure they could add more drones in all zones, but players will find a way. They always do.
In short, it would never work, unless we get a Dev who manages to think up the most balanced and fun open-world PvP ever, which sounds about as momentous sliced bread.
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Immersion is nonsense.
I don't see you or anyone else complaining that level 50s can't do lower level content, but that's entirely ridiculous. Take Croatoa. Salmanca is about to fall into the spirit world. If my level 50 goes up and offers her services to the Mayor, he'll tell her to buzz off.
How the hell is that "immersive" Whatever the hell that means. And do you really suggest that a desperate town leader telling a "Hero of the City" that they can't help because they're too powerful doesn't break "immersion" to the same extent that not being able to have open PvP does?
That's simply silly.
And if this so called, "immersion" is so important to you, then why don't all heroes do everything in their power to bring the criminal DJ Zero to justice? He harbors thousands of known criminals in his club, but no one seems to have a problem shaking their booty there. With Vanguard and the coming Midnight Squad content at least there's a plausible reason why you might join forces.
In Pocket D, no such reason exist. If "immersion" is so important, then heroes, Longbow, etc. should be doing everything to bring down DJ Zero, but at the very least Heroes shouldn't be allowed to go there. And given the content in RWZ, there's no way that Longbow would be providing frikken security in the club.
I could write pages about the many things in CoH/V that breaks "immersion" as people use the term. The point is that games have rules. And one of the rules is that in Pocket D, heroes and villains can't fight. There's no reason not to expand that into other zones.
Other games do it to great success. It would work fine here and no one would complain after it was here for awhile. How many people are still whining about loot? As long as I've been playing MMOs people have brought up the stupid "immersion" argument everytime they want to down an idea they don't like.
It never makes sense. It's not an intellectually honest argument. You admit that yourself when you admit that there are many things in CoH that break "immersion." And you know, I wholly disagree with you that this particular idea would break immersion to any greater extent than the fact:
That Positron and Valkyrie (and all the other signature heroes) stand there and let noobs get beat on and do nothing to help.
That there are no children (well two) in the City.
That heroes fly, run, and jump past people getting robbed on their way to missions because "All that crap is grey to me...no exp."
That the U.S. would suffer to have no less than five uniformed militia groups have military bases in a major American city.
That Statesman can simultaneously be sitting on a boat in IP, and be in the clutches of Tyrant, and be beating down villains in Recluse's Victory.
That each and every hero can be the one who saved the Psychochronometron (and any other story arc that says you're the only one who did it)
I could go on but the point is clear. Immersion is not even an important goal. Immersion, the feeling that you're in a world that makes sense and is consistent, is incompatible with MMORPGs in general. In literally thousands of ways people have to put their need for "immersion" on the shelf to accept that the game has to provide a social and game space for many different people.
This isn't a comic book. This is a game about the types of heroes you see in comic books.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
[ QUOTE ]
Hero_of_Steel (kindly) linked to my thoughts on the subject, but I want to point out, since it's often overlooked, that making a hero zone available to villains doesn't necessarily mean PvP, co-op, or even competition. Villains could have their own instances of Paragon City where they'll never see a player Hero, and where contacts, zone events, and spawns can be tailored for villains.
Just thought I'd throw that out there since people always seem to get hung up on the, "but I don't want more PvP or co-op" thing when the idea of zone re-use is brought up.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is an idea I've tossed out there a few times:
You go to the Tram (or submarine) and see:
Atlas Park (PvE)
Atlas Park (PvP)
If you go to the PvP version of Atlas, you land in a faction only full sized instance. The PvE version of Atlas is Hero only and vice versa. If you choose to go to the PvP version, you land in an FFA instance of the zone. Choosing to Hospital sends you to the PvE version of the Hospital.
That said, I don't think anyone objects to there being more villain zones per se, the villains just have to be prepared to deal with a further spreading out of the villain population when they get them.
To convince the Devs that there needs to be more villain specific content, the answer is simple: recruit more villain players.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
[ QUOTE ]
Open all zones to both sides.
Create a new PvE structure that allows people to "fight" (as in oppose by means other than combat) the other faction.
Example, Longbow creates bases in all Villain zones and gives sabotage and liberation missions to heroes. Arachnos creates similar bases in Paragon and gives villains an opportunity to do what they do best.
[/ QUOTE ]
I have to say I really like this idea, plus it would untie the devs hands as far as adding new zones to the game!
And as far as immersion goes, what does it matter if our villains show up in paragon? There's already uncounted villains running around paragon city being ignored by heroes, what's wrong with a few more?
I would like to have an option for villains to travel to hero zones and vice versa. I would also not suggest such an idea unless PvP was activated in such a way so that it's fair. A dynamic like this is what CoH needs and has needed for a long time. You're flying around, doing whatever and all of a sudden over on that building! A villain! They can attack and be attacked by anyone. Say what you want about ganking, but I would find this super fun. A player can set himself for PVP if he wants, so that he can be attacked. Or a player can choose not to be flagged for PVP at the time so he can't be bothered.
I'm not all up on hero/villain co-op content. I mean, yeah, it's cool, but how many issues can survive on the concept of "HOLY CRAP *insert something crazy here* POSES A THREAT TO THE WHOLE WORLD! HEROES AND VILLAINS MUST TEAM UP, DESPITE THEIR DIFFERENCES, AND FIGHT OFF THIS NEW THREAT!!"
[ QUOTE ]
QR
Well said Lothic.
I'm completely consistent.
All ATs; both sides
All zones; both sides
All sets; All appropriate ATs
Merge the markets.
Ethos is your choice, not your yoke.
Freedom, Mom, baseball and apple pie (or cherry if you prefer).
If you disagree you're a man among boys
[/ QUOTE ]
No.