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I haven't explored how high it ranges, but the issue isn't that it needs more zones. To me, it's an issue that villains don't know where they belong without someone telling them.
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Hehe, I've never had this problem villainside, but it is the main reason I don't play heroes. I HATE the zones blueside, and after Kings Row I generally have no idea where I'm supposed to go, so I just wind up teaming and doing other peoples missions, which leaves me scratching my head when I can't find a team and just wind up logging back to a villain instead.
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I don't understand this. If you play CoH, the game gives you two paths to learn what to do after King's Row:
1) You can talk to your 5-9 contacts and they will introduce you to someone in Steel Canyon or Skyway; or
2) Just like with City of Villains you can do radio (newspaper) missions in either of those two zones until the police introduce you to a contact.
Are you saying that the game doesn't give you enough information to figure out where to go after King's Row? I can't see how that could be the case if you do the missions for even ONE contact from 5-9.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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I'm not here to condemn that gameplay. I'll have that gameplay when I choose it, and not while zoning in from a mission door, thank you very much.
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No, you're obviously NOT getting it. What you describe is a PvP server in WoW. Like our PvP zones, but in every zone of the game. Anyone of one faction can attack anyone of the opposite faction at any time.
That is NOT what I'm suggesting. I'm suggesting what WoW calls PvE servers. You play the game the way you normally would, doing quests/missions, but if you saw someone of the opposite faction with their PvP flag on you could attack them. Doing so puts your flag on too though. Or, if you saw a hero and villain going at it you could join in, which puts your flag on. More people can join in as they come across you all. It's nothing like a PvP zone from here, or an open PvP server there. It's up to the individual to PvP or not, but everyone has access to all zones. You might have to watch out for guards of the opposite faction but that's all that stands in your way.
You can't get ganked in the PvE type server.
Can and have.
WoW style pvp would not work in Coh.
For one does affecting a person of the same faction who is fighting draw you into the fray?
A) If not it would make dual boxing PvP even easier. Just have a healer team with you and you have unlimited uninterrupted buffs.
B) if so if I am using a power such as steamy mist or shadow fall and a person with pvp turned on enters the radius does that drag me in? Or if I team with a person and then tp them would i have PvP flags turned on too? And what if I'm fighting some outside mobs and lay down a tar patch, if a PvP enemy steps in it am I flagged? This also leads to easy exploitation (and most likely the ghenking of noobs).
Can and have what? Been ganked/have ganked on a PvE server? Did you do something shady like standing right by the flight master so someone clicks you instead of them, or by using an exploit like one of the hunter's traps?
Same as there, if you healed or buffed someone that was engaged in PvP combat it puts you in PvP mode also.
A) is voided by the above.
B) Those could be figured out, but nothing you're running would drag you in if a player flagged for PvP were to enter the radius. It also wouldn't affect them though. An AoE won't hurt them if you're not flagged too. Any power you use on another player of the same faction, buff, heal, tp, would put you in PvP combat mode also. You can participate or be a spectator but you can't help someone without putting yourself at risk too.
So how would that not work?
You are right, I'm missing something.
Is it:
A villain with his PvP flag off could wander into Atlas Park. If I attack him, that sets my PvP flag to on, and therefore me and a bunch of my hero buddies can gank him. Conversely, he could enter AP with a bunch of villains, and all could attack and gank me (thus suffering the penalty of having their PvP flags set to on).
Or is it:
A villain can wander into AP with his PvP flag off and attack a PPD officer right in front of my hero, and I can't attack him because his PvP flag is off.
Or is it some other alternative I'm not seeing? I haven't played WoW in a while.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
/sarcasm
You know what really breaks immersion for me? Taking my level 50 into BB and getting beaten by a level 15. Forget auto-exempting to 25. If a level 15 dares to attack me, I should be able to pound them into the ground. This is bogus. I really need to gank every low level on the board. Same thing goes for Siren's, Warburg and RV.
/end sarcasm
We need to suspend disbelief a bit here folks. Since my last post didn't seem to get my point across, I'll be more direct.
We suspend our disbelief all the time. How many of our shows and movies have fatal flaws that we have to overlook to get enjoyment? For example, Luke Skywalker shouldn't be able to deflect a laser blast even with a lightsabre (he would not even be able to see it coming.)
Declaring that "immersion is broken anyway why not go for broke" is a terrible argument. That's like saying "I'm getting taxes back every year so I'll just go to Fort Knox and take it all out at once."
Plus MORE DOESN'T EQUAL BETTER! I want new content for my villains, not more of the hero stuff that I have done (this goes especially for SF's and Trials.)
A villain with his PvP flag off walks into Atlas Park. You can't attack him if his flag is off. No one can gank him. He and his friends walk into Atlas Park, you and your friends do not have your flags on, the villains cannot attack you, even if their flags are on.
If a villain without a flag on walks into Atlas Park and attacks a PPD officer right in front of you his flag would be turned on. You, and any other heroes there, can then attack him too. But that would also set your flags to on. Or, you could watch and see who wins. If that officer isn't alone though, that villain is getting attacked by the officer's friends too.
And flags would have to be on a timer. They'd go off after a certain amount of non-PvP-combat time.
Basically, turning a PvP flag on means you're open to be attacked, not that you can now attack everyone regardless of whether their flag is on or not. Well, you can attack them if their flag is on, just not if it's not on. But as soon as you attack that PvP On flagged player, your flag goes on too.
On a side note: today's WoW patch did away with the pet trap exploit that could in effect put a non-flagged person into a flagged PvP state. 
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A villain with his PvP flag off walks into Atlas Park. You can't attack him if his flag is off. No one can gank him. He and his friends walk into Atlas Park, you and your friends do not have your flags on, the villains cannot attack you, even if their flags are on.
If a villain without a flag on walks into Atlas Park and attacks a PPD officer right in front of you his flag would be turned on. You, and any other heroes there, can then attack him too. But that would also set your flags to on. Or, you could watch and see who wins. If that officer isn't alone though, that villain is getting attacked by the officer's friends too.
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So can level 50's hang out in Atlas following lowbies just waiting for them to attack something and pounce? Or will there be a permanent auto-exemp thing going on?
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If a villain without a flag on walks into Atlas Park and attacks a PPD officer right in front of you his flag would be turned on.
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But wait, do PPD aggro on villains? Seems like they should. They don't help villains out like they do heroes, do they? In which case, the cohabitation isn't really an effect way to provide villain content, because you open yourself up to PvP through normal play.
See in WoW, Horde may be able to go to Alliance territory, but there's nothing for them to do there. They go for other reasons, mostly disruptive ones. They can go because the world is seamless and no one is stopping them. But they aren't welcome - there's no content for them there.
But here, we're trying to figure out how to get villains more content, cheaply. Having villains in Paragon on this type of "unwelcome" flag system prevents that from happening, at least for people that want to separate their PvE from their PvP.
So if you want villains to have more content, you can't put them in a zone where self defense opens them up to PvP. But then, as I pointed out earlier, even if you're not open to PvP, Heroes can still presumably buff friendly mobs. So you end up PvPing by proxy, which I think people would flip their shaz over.
I've never played EQ2, so I don't know if their content is segregated similarly to WoW's, but that strikes me as the big difference between other games that "let the other side in" and what's being proposed here. In WoW, the other side can come in, but there's no reason for them to be there. So you don't have opposite factions regularly in the same area. If there's a reason for both sides to be there, then that becomes problematic for both sides. You'd see the opposite faction regularly, with all the aforementioned problems.
Giving each side their own instance gives us the benefit of asset reuse and avoids these problems at the same time.
bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-
ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!
And if a villain were in, say, Atlas Park, what should happen when he gets within aggro range of a Hellion? Or more realistically, a level 25 Villain riding the sub to IP and then aggroing Family or DE. If that drops them into PvP mode, gank city. If it doesn't, it's time to killsteal.
Not to mention the group of level 50 heroes with maxed Perception that would hang out at the villain zone-in point(s) in IP and follow them around, waiting for them to go PvP.
Of course they would be somewhat countered by the villains that gathered in large groups while untargetable, waiting for signal to all go PvP at once and spike the first poor fool to attack one of them.
Thank you NancY, I think I understand your proposal more, but I still like my own idea better.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
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So can level 50's hang out in Atlas following lowbies just waiting for them to attack something and pounce?
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No auto-exemp, that's ridiculous in the first place. A level 50 could do that I guess, but that's why there'd be no reward for killing someone that much lower in level. Grays would give no PvP points. And that lowbie would have to attack another player first, or turn on their flag, for that level 50 to "pounce" if an invitation to PvP could be called pouncing. :/
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But wait, do PPD aggro on villains? Seems like they should. They don't help villains out like they do heroes, do they? In which case, the cohabitation isn't really an effect way to provide villain content, because you open yourself up to PvP through normal play.
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PPD should attack, there's no difference between a NPC villain and a player villain in that regard. And vice versa if a hero went to villain zones, they'd be attacked by those drones or guards. All you'd have to do is run away. If attacking opens you up to PvP and you don't want that, don't attack back. Jeez, with our travel powers how could you not get away?
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See in WoW, Horde may be able to go to Alliance territory, but there's nothing for them to do there. They go for other reasons, mostly disruptive ones. They can go because the world is seamless and no one is stopping them. But they aren't welcome - there's no content for them there.
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The real low level starting areas don't, and the main fortified cities don't and are dangerous for opposite factions to enter, but there the mid to high level zones are for both factions on a PvE server, with quests for both factions. I'm not sure what you mean by seamless, you have to zone like here, you just don't have artificial boundaries.
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But here, we're trying to figure out how to get villains more content, cheaply. Having villains in Paragon on this type of "unwelcome" flag system prevents that from happening, at least for people that want to separate their PvE from their PvP.
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Giving villains more content cheaply isn't going to attract more players villain side. That's kind of why I made my suggestion in the first place. Do away with a villain side. Do away with a hero side. Make it one game where both have to mingle, but try to make it realistic by allowing PvP for those that want it, especially for immersion. That way, would it really matter how many or few people played villains?
Giving PvPers access to more zones but separate from non PvPers still divides the player base. Something needs to be done to stop dividing the player base, not divide it even more, imo.
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So can level 50's hang out in Atlas following lowbies just waiting for them to attack something and pounce?
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No auto-exemp, that's ridiculous in the first place. A level 50 could do that I guess, but that's why there'd be no reward for killing someone that much lower in level. Grays would give no PvP points. And that lowbie would have to attack another player first, or turn on their flag, for that level 50 to "pounce" if an invitation to PvP could be called pouncing. :/
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No reward doesn't stop people from griefing,
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And if a villain were in, say, Atlas Park, what should happen when he gets within aggro range of a Hellion? Or more realistically, a level 25 Villain riding the sub to IP and then aggroing Family or DE. If that drops them into PvP mode, gank city. If it doesn't, it's time to killsteal.
Not to mention the group of level 50 heroes with maxed Perception that would hang out at the villain zone-in point(s) in IP and follow them around, waiting for them to go PvP.
Of course they would be somewhat countered by the villains that gathered in large groups while untargetable, waiting for signal to all go PvP at once and spike the first poor fool to attack one of them.
Thank you NancY, I think I understand your proposal more, but I still like my own idea better.
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If a villain got within aggro range of a hellion the hellion would attack the same way they do with a hero. No that would not put you in PvP mode. The hellion is an NPC bad guy, right? He can be attacked by a hero or a villain. PvP mode is only turned on by yourself, or attacking the opposite faction whether it's a drone, guard, or player.
If level 50s have nothing better to do than sit at certain points waiting to gank people then that says more about the game being broken than anything else. However, if the villain in that situation doesn't want to be ganked he makes sure he doesn't enter PvP mode or he brings a large group of friends for back up. It's not rocket science. Since there'd be no rewards of any kind for dishonorable kills I'm not so sure there'd be a lot of that going on. And if our PvP community is so small that they're basically scoffed at on the forums, what's there to worry about?
I'm not sure I know what idea you're talking about. The separate PvP server idea? That separates the players more than they already are? City of Segregation, wonderful. If we don't like you, if we fear you, we segregate you! Whee! 
[quoteIf level 50s have nothing better to do than sit at certain points waiting to gank people then that says more about the game being broken than anything else. However, if the villain in that situation doesn't want to be ganked he makes sure he doesn't enter PvP mode or he brings a large group of friends for back up. It's not rocket science. Since there'd be no rewards of any kind for dishonorable kills I'm not so sure there'd be a lot of that going on. And if our PvP community is so small that they're basically scoffed at on the forums, what's there to worry about?
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I'm much less worries about the actual PvPers, than the would-be PvPers who gank people. It doesn't matter if there's no rewards at all for winning unfair fights - they'll still do it just to be jerks. It'll happen under your proposed rules.
I also do not like the idea of a seperate PvP server. That effectively doubles the workload and server strain, and I just don't think they'll be populated enough to warrant it.
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Giving villains more content cheaply isn't going to attract more players villain side.
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I think this is our fundamental disagreement. I absolutely think more content villain-side will attract more villain players.
The difference is, I don't think you can just slap more content into Sharkshead and have it make any difference. There are fundamental things about villain environments that turn a lot of players off.
That's why the idea of opening up Paragon zones is so appealing to me - here you have ready-made player-friendly zones that people actually want to visit (some of the zones, at least). Putting villain content in those zones seems to me to be an easy way to solve almost all the problems with villains.
Of course, the "city of mercenaries" problem (which I'm not sure is a huge deterrent, but it might be) can only be solved by creative content creation (War Witch?), and I guess I12 will be a test to see if they're trying their hands at it.
But none of this matters if you don't think more villain content will attract more villains. That, to me, is the only reason for this entire thread.
bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-
ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!
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But none of this matters if you don't think more villain content will attract more villains. That, to me, is the only reason for this entire thread.
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Well, there's also the consideration of whether we think attracting more villain players would be good for the game in the first place.
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No reward doesn't stop people from griefing,
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Truth.
For griefers, griefing is its own reward.
They have a whole quadrant of the Bartle taxonomy.
bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-
ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!
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Well, there's also the consideration of whether we think attracting more villain players would be good for the game in the first place.
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Not trying to be snarky; I'm seriously curious: do you think the devs should just let CoV wither and die?
bababadalgharaghtakamminarronnkonnbronntonner-
ronntuonnthunntrovarrhounawnskawntoohoohoordenenth ur-
nuk!
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Well, there's also the consideration of whether we think attracting more villain players would be good for the game in the first place.
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Not trying to be snarky; I'm seriously curious: do you think the devs should just let CoV wither and die?
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Not as such, but I don't think it's worth trying to come up with shiny new attractors just because red's niche is smaller than blue's. I think the people who take the "fewer players play villains than heroes because the villain side gets less developer attention" approach are confusing cause and effect and, as such, are just advocating that the development team waste a lot of time swimming against the current.
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Giving villains more content cheaply isn't going to attract more players villain side.
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I think this is our fundamental disagreement. I absolutely think more content villain-side will attract more villain players.
The difference is, I don't think you can just slap more content into Sharkshead and have it make any difference. There are fundamental things about villain environments that turn a lot of players off.
That's why the idea of opening up Paragon zones is so appealing to me - here you have ready-made player-friendly zones that people actually want to visit (some of the zones, at least). Putting villain content in those zones seems to me to be an easy way to solve almost all the problems with villains.
Of course, the "city of mercenaries" problem (which I'm not sure is a huge deterrent, but it might be) can only be solved by creative content creation (War Witch?), and I guess I12 will be a test to see if they're trying their hands at it.
But none of this matters if you don't think more villain content will attract more villains. That, to me, is the only reason for this entire thread.
[/ QUOTE ]I don't want to visit all the hero zones. Honestly I dislike alot of hero zones because they basically just repeat over and over and over again. There is little variety in the majority of hero zones, and some will disagree but there really isn't.
The only thing I really want is Croatoa, Striga, and Shadow Shard. I would like story parity for Hollows and Faultline though, because it's a little bit disappointing that when this content was made, in the reformatting of said zones, and villains were left high and dry, especially considering the fact villains are severely lacking strike forces and any content dealing with Paragon at all.
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I think the people who take the "fewer players play villains than heroes because the villain side gets less developer attention" approach are confusing cause and effect and, as such, are just advocating that the development team waste a lot of time swimming against the current.
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And yet, the red side players that have been advocating more content for the last year are told, by players like you, that "the reason red side gets less developer attention is because there aren't enough players there".
So which is it?
There aren't enough players there to warrant dev attention, or there isn't enough dev attention so less players play it? Better yet, we're told that we, the players, should get more business for villain side.
I don't know why I even bother. Every Issue that comes out here is just another nail in my subscription coffin. My PC can't handle GV anymore, and I hate the mentality of the majority of the player base here. In 4 years I've never had a problem running WoW, and now I can't wait for Age of Conan, c'mon May 20th.
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I think the people who take the "fewer players play villains than heroes because the villain side gets less developer attention" approach are confusing cause and effect and, as such, are just advocating that the development team waste a lot of time swimming against the current.
[/ QUOTE ]
And yet, the red side players that have been advocating more content for the last year are told, by players like you, that "the reason red side gets less developer attention is because there aren't enough players there".
So which is it?
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What do you mean, "Which is it?" What I said and what you just said are the same argument. The red side has a smaller niche, therefore it's entirely logical that not as much developer attention is paid to it.
Think of it like a bus route. If a bus on a particular route is always half-full, adding more seats to the bus isn't going to attract more riders. That's just how many people happen to want to go in that direction on that stretch of that street.
Similarly, I believe the number of players on the red side has nothing to do with developer attention or inattention; that's just the average number of players who prefer a villain-themed experience, and adding more neon lights to the Ferris wheel of evil isn't going to get any more people to climb on.
Your analogy is a bit off.
If you think of it like a bus route adding more stops increases the amount of people that use that particular bus.
So adding new zones to CoV would be like extending a bus route.
Our bus travels from A to B. If we extend that to be A to B to C more people will use that particular bus.
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I haven't explored how high it ranges, but the issue isn't that it needs more zones. To me, it's an issue that villains don't know where they belong without someone telling them.
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Hehe, I've never had this problem villainside, but it is the main reason I don't play heroes. I HATE the zones blueside, and after Kings Row I generally have no idea where I'm supposed to go, so I just wind up teaming and doing other peoples missions, which leaves me scratching my head when I can't find a team and just wind up logging back to a villain instead.