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This is how Star Wars Galaxies was originally designed. It was way too griefable, so they removed it. One of the VERY few smart things those Devs accomplished.
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Never knew that. How did they grief the system and how did the devs fix it?
[/ QUOTE ]
A group of PvP players would ride around the outskirts of a well-populated city, waiting for a player to come out to do a faction-specific mission (note in SWG there were no such thing as instanced missions - they much more often than not took place out in the open plains). Player starts shooting, gets flagged for PvP, and gets smacked down in 8 to 1 fights.
The Devs could have handled it differently, but they decided to take the most extreme route possible: remove the flags entirely.
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I've fought similar fights before just to see my ideas come into the game and the doubters slink away to enjoy that which they said they would hate.
[/ QUOTE ]
Such as... ?
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Loot
Crafting
Flashback
MoG fix
A way to earn unlimited respecs
[/ QUOTE ]
Never fought against Flashback or MoG.
I did point out that unlimited free respecs had a potential exploit in it, namely that you could sell off all your Enhancements at full price. Having a for-fee recipe for crafting a respec seems like a wise solution.
And as I pointed out many many times in my arguments with you over crafting, it isn't crafting in itself that I abhor, but the things crafting made you do namely, farming for 100 Rat Tails so you can make the Pitiful Stinky Armor of Tails, so you can skill up your crafting power to Level 2, so now you can farm 500 Dog Noses... the ultimate goal of which is that everybody must purchase the top-level loot in order to maintain parity. That's what I objected to.
And it didn't happen. The system they implemented satisfies me largely because I can completely ignore it and I think we can agree that it was precisely because we (and others) had loud, large public debates over these things that the crafting system turned out so well.
Of course, I still don't use it much. I think only my level 50 has any IO sets at all. The rest, I just buy SOs and sell the salvage and recipes at the store. So... your opponents "slinked off and enjoyed" the crafting? No, because it's rather uninspiring. I'd rather play than sit around and comb the CH. And I still don't enjoy the loot aspect, where you need 20,000,000 Influence to buy anything useful. So you can take that off your resume, bub. 
I think they should just make a Jail zone where all you can do is sit there and try to get "free" villains to break you out, The Vault for COV!
Just kidding....Im bored...
King Arthur: Look, you stupid [censored]. You've got no arms left.
Black Knight: Yes I have.
King Arthur: *Look*!
Black Knight: It's just a flesh wound.
Black Knight...ultimate scrapper!
[ QUOTE ]
You go to the Tram (or submarine) and see:
Atlas Park (PvE)
Atlas Park (PvP)
[/ QUOTE ]
I like this idea. It keeps PvP optional while adding variety to the zones. However, I'd group all the PvE stuff at the top, have it so people have to scroll down to the PvP group at the bottom... just so there aren't any complaints about accidentally clicking on the one below what they wanted.
OR, thinking a bit more on it... have the PvP versions be accessable from OB portals, so that they could be on a different "shard" where some key technologies were circumvented and Arachnos has a bigger foothold.
But wouldn't that essentially triple the serverloads to have to have atleast 3 shards of each map running at once?
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You go to the Tram (or submarine) and see:
Atlas Park (PvE)
Atlas Park (PvP)
[/ QUOTE ]
I like this idea. It keeps PvP optional while adding variety to the zones. However, I'd group all the PvE stuff at the top, have it so people have to scroll down to the PvP group at the bottom... just so there aren't any complaints about accidentally clicking on the one below what they wanted.
OR, thinking a bit more on it... have the PvP versions be accessable from OB portals, so that they could be on a different "shard" where some key technologies were circumvented and Arachnos has a bigger foothold.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't think this would work, but I've long hoped the devs would create a PvP server with a separate ruleset.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
time to see how good those new upgrades are 
Always on Justice
I'd like to see a system where a villain/hero could enter Paragon/isles "incognito" maybe even have a special costume slot for a disguise or a power that shape shifts them to look like a civilian, while that is on your powers are grayed out and your non-pvp, but as soon as you take off your disguise, BLAMO you've opened yourself up to PVP you can be targeted, only opponents that have engaged you in combat can you return fire.
Basically it would be like my villain put on a hat and trench coat and snuck into paragon city to go rob a bank, he walks into teh bank takes off the hat pulls out his ray gun and announces "this is a robbery" his pvp flag has been declared, heroes can swarm him cause he was dumb enough to try to rob a bank in a city full of do gooders, if he manages to pull it off, rebuffing all comers good for him, if not, off to jail he goes where he has to try and break out, either way lots of fun, same with heroes going into hostile territory.
Now i know that that system would have some flaws and open up some griefing issues, one way around it would be to make it so only lvl 50's could do this sort of thing, if your not 50 you cant go over, but anyone can attack an "invader"
Why don't you think it would work?
Also, why would a seperate PvP server with a different ruleset be better? That sounds like it would have a few problems:
- splitting off some of the Devs to work on the different codebase
- making sure the different codebase was compatible with updates
- perceived 'stepchild' status (deserved or not) of PvP server
etc...
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
It would lessen the load on the servers due to splitting of the population, but be materially expensive due to the need to purchase more hardware.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
I like the idea of the FFA world being accessible via Ouroboros.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
The overall point is that villains want to to bad things to good people. The Rogue Isles is the antithesis of this in that we are forced to do bad things to mostly bad people, making us back-handed heroes. The ideas of a villain version of Paragon are the best way to get that. Make it chocked full of NPC heroes along with the standard Longbow/PPD fair and were good. I would even go as far as suggesting the ability to degrade the look of the zones ala RV were the more crimes we commit out on the street, the worse the zone looks.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
Immersion. funny word that.
My Immersion is broken every time I open a mission window and see "Heroic"
My Immersion is broken every time I do a co-op mission and can't pass an awaken.
My immersion is broken every time I do a mayhem on a stalker and longbow runs right to me.
My immersion is broken when I go to the RWZ, and a Vanguard op talks to me like I am a hero.
My immersion is broken when I can fight WITH longbow but AGAINST Arachnos in the RWZ.
My immersion is broken every time I have to save some lame Hero in the RWZ.
My immersion is a very lame argument. Immersion applies to both sides if it does for one side. Please give that argument up. Just say you don't like it and be done with it.
Oh this is a QR btw
"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
Yes, exactly: just instance it so that someone who doesn't want to see it doesn't have to.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You go to the Tram (or submarine) and see:
Atlas Park (PvE)
Atlas Park (PvP)
[/ QUOTE ]
I like this idea. It keeps PvP optional while adding variety to the zones. However, I'd group all the PvE stuff at the top, have it so people have to scroll down to the PvP group at the bottom... just so there aren't any complaints about accidentally clicking on the one below what they wanted.
OR, thinking a bit more on it... have the PvP versions be accessable from OB portals, so that they could be on a different "shard" where some key technologies were circumvented and Arachnos has a bigger foothold.
[/ QUOTE ]
You might as well leave things the way they are now. That's a big waste of resources for what amounts to what we already have, which is PvPers stuffed away in a corner somewhere.
I'm guessing many of you have never tried WoW because you don't understand what I was talking about, and I think EG is talking about too. Heroes and villains in the same zone doesn't mean world PvP, it doesn't mean you can attack each other at any time. That's what a PvP server is.
What I was suggesting is like the PvE servers of WoW; both factions can enter any zone, but can only PvP if they turn on their PvP flag. Also, attacking a member of the opposite faction automatically turns on the flag.
Missions would need to be spread out across all zones. New contacts and stores would need to be placed, but that isn't any more work than is being suggested in this thread, especially the suggestion of running 3 versions of each zone. That's 3 versions of each zone on every server!
Heroes and villains would not be "paling around" because it's not a shared zone of the type we now have. The missions would not suddenly all become co-op. PvP could take place anywhere if players wanted to take part in it. It would not be forced upon anyone like in the current PvP zones.
As for the comments that PvPers or villain players don't matter because their numbers are so small....I'm sick of the elitist attitude in this game. Those players pay the same each month that hero players do. They're entitled to the same treatment by the dev team that the hero players receive. Alienating any subset of players, for any reason, is not good business practice. Doing that anywhere else would be construed as prejudice and unacceptable. Why is it acceptable here?
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Why don't you think it would work?
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My concern is that people would accidentally find themselves in PvP if they aren't careful. Or to alleviate that problem you would have a rather annoying message that would pop up everytime you entered the zone.
[ QUOTE ]
Also, why would a seperate PvP server with a different ruleset be better? That sounds like it would have a few problems:
- splitting off some of the Devs to work on the different codebase
- making sure the different codebase was compatible with updates
- perceived 'stepchild' status (deserved or not) of PvP server
etc...
[/ QUOTE ]
The different codebase argument doesn't really hold a lot of water with me. In the long term, the time you spend maintaining the separate codebases is well paid off in the time you don't have to consider how to shoe-horn everything into PvP and PvE at the same time.
Also, from personal experience, the typical animosity that you see between PvEers and PvPers tends to fade when each playstyle has its own gamespace.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
[ QUOTE ]
Immersion. funny word that.
My Immersion is broken every time I open a mission window and see "Heroic"
My Immersion is broken every time I do a co-op mission and can't pass an awaken.
My immersion is broken every time I do a mayhem on a stalker and longbow runs right to me.
My immersion is broken when I go to the RWZ, and a Vanguard op talks to me like I am a hero.
My immersion is broken when I can fight WITH longbow but AGAINST Arachnos in the RWZ.
My immersion is broken every time I have to save some lame Hero in the RWZ.
[/ QUOTE ]
My immersion is shot dead, repeatedly, when a hero and villian cannot fight one another.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Immersion. funny word that.
My Immersion is broken every time I open a mission window and see "Heroic"
My Immersion is broken every time I do a co-op mission and can't pass an awaken.
My immersion is broken every time I do a mayhem on a stalker and longbow runs right to me.
My immersion is broken when I go to the RWZ, and a Vanguard op talks to me like I am a hero.
My immersion is broken when I can fight WITH longbow but AGAINST Arachnos in the RWZ.
My immersion is broken every time I have to save some lame Hero in the RWZ.
[/ QUOTE ]
My immersion is shot dead, repeatedly, when a hero and villian cannot fight one another.
[/ QUOTE ]Biggest bunch of bull pucky I have ever heard. Want to fight villains? You have four zones for it that are heavily under used.
[ QUOTE ]
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Immersion. funny word that.
My Immersion is broken every time I open a mission window and see "Heroic"
My Immersion is broken every time I do a co-op mission and can't pass an awaken.
My immersion is broken every time I do a mayhem on a stalker and longbow runs right to me.
My immersion is broken when I go to the RWZ, and a Vanguard op talks to me like I am a hero.
My immersion is broken when I can fight WITH longbow but AGAINST Arachnos in the RWZ.
My immersion is broken every time I have to save some lame Hero in the RWZ.
[/ QUOTE ]
My immersion is shot dead, repeatedly, when a hero and villian cannot fight one another.
[/ QUOTE ]
So then you should have no problem with open zones. CoV shoul have been called CoM, City of Mercinaries. My Villains have saved Paragon from the Wailers, Carnies, Freakshow, Family, and Nemesis, So doesn't that make me a psuedo hero?
Immerse me a reason that my villains would want to save Paragon from any of the above will ya?
"Sorry bucko, but CoH and CoV are the same game." -BackAlleyBrawler
"Silly villain, CoX is for Heroes!" -Saicho
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Immersion. funny word that.
My Immersion is broken every time I open a mission window and see "Heroic"
My Immersion is broken every time I do a co-op mission and can't pass an awaken.
My immersion is broken every time I do a mayhem on a stalker and longbow runs right to me.
My immersion is broken when I go to the RWZ, and a Vanguard op talks to me like I am a hero.
My immersion is broken when I can fight WITH longbow but AGAINST Arachnos in the RWZ.
My immersion is broken every time I have to save some lame Hero in the RWZ.
[/ QUOTE ]
My immersion is shot dead, repeatedly, when a hero and villian cannot fight one another.
[/ QUOTE ]
Good, since immersion is nonsense. It needs to be dead and buried.
Oh, you "forgot" to quote this part:
[ QUOTE ]
My immersion is a very lame argument. [u]Immersion applies to both sides if it does for one side. Please give that argument up. Just say you don't like it and be done with it.[u]
[/ QUOTE ]
Cloaking your opinion in "immersion" doesn't grant it any more relevance than it had before. Personally, I would respect an argument that says, "I don't like it" more than pulling out the old canard.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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immersion is nonsense. It needs to be dead and buried.
[/ QUOTE ]
Speaking of tired old canards.
This all just adds to the "city of heroes is not a comic book game in the slightest" situation.
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Why don't you think it would work?
[/ QUOTE ]
My concern is that people would accidentally find themselves in PvP if they aren't careful. Or to alleviate that problem you would have a rather annoying message that would pop up everytime you entered the zone.
[ QUOTE ]
Also, why would a seperate PvP server with a different ruleset be better? That sounds like it would have a few problems:
- splitting off some of the Devs to work on the different codebase
- making sure the different codebase was compatible with updates
- perceived 'stepchild' status (deserved or not) of PvP server
etc...
[/ QUOTE ]
The different codebase argument doesn't really hold a lot of water with me. In the long term, the time you spend maintaining the separate codebases is well paid off in the time you don't have to consider how to shoe-horn everything into PvP and PvE at the same time.
Also, from personal experience, the typical animosity that you see between PvEers and PvPers tends to fade when each playstyle has its own gamespace.
[/ QUOTE ]
I am in favor of each type of gameplay having it's own space.
Why not develop PvP as it's own compatible "expanshalone" with its own city developed for it from the ground up? Then you have two completely seperate Devs teams and content, and all you have to worry about is the fiddly bits for when someone takes a character from PvE land into PvP land?
Thar deals with code problems and playerbase problems. Just put it all on a server anyone can reach from any other server, like the Test Server is now.
Story Arcs I created:
Every Rose: (#17702) Villainous vs Legacy Chain. Forget Arachnos, join the CoT!
Cosplay Madness!: (#3643) Neutral vs Custom Foes. Heroes at a pop culture convention!
Kiss Hello Goodbye: (#156389) Heroic vs Custom Foes. Film Noir/Hardboiled detective adventure!
[ QUOTE ]
Why not develop PvP as it's own compatible "expanshalone" with its own city developed for it from the ground up? Then you have two completely seperate Devs teams and content, and all you have to worry about is the fiddly bits for when someone takes a character from PvE land into PvP land
[/ QUOTE ]
Do you...really need somebody to answer that?
[ QUOTE ]
Sounds like your hero and villain aren't really either, just people who happen to have powers. I'd think that your hero would want to apprehend the villain simply for being a Ziggurat escapee, and the villain would want to take out the hero to gain credibility with Arachnos. What I know however is that heroes and villains aren't neutral towards eachother, much less palsy. Any exception to this is either a circumstance that "is bigger than the both of them," or a joke comic.
[/ QUOTE ]
Or X-men where Charles Xavier and Magneto were once and in many ways still are the closest friends. Not a big Batman friend, but I thought Harvey Dent and Batman were once close friends as well.
Villains and heroes can have much more complex relationships than you give them credit for and so I must say to you:
Read more comics. Because your experience with hero/villain relationships seems remarkably shallow.
[ QUOTE ]
Consider my duel commentary future proofing against the only other way of having villains and heroes in the same zone without faction instances or PvP free fire. Also consider it a subtle, stealth jab against the posters here who already have directly suggested this. Doesn't look like you tried very hard to distance yourself from the notion, though.
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I don't because while I don't actively want a /duel option, I've played games with it and so long as you can auto-decline, it's really a minor problem.
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Your 50 Brute has gone to Paragon City multiple times, and has been treated like a villain in Paragon City multiple times. Hunh, if anything it's the heroes who are rarely sent to the Rogue Isles.
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Most of the times my villain went to Paragon has been to beat up other crooks. The Mayhems are the only exception.
[ QUOTE ]
Also:
That your list of issues went your way is not a commentary on your efforts, more than it is a showing of the developers folding like cards to the MMO traditionalist set. Cards in slow motion! Regardless, they still capitulated to the same old band-aids designed to distract people from monotonous maps and mission design.
[/ QUOTE ]
And because all that stuff they added is fun.
[ QUOTE ]
Finally, it was not by my hand that I am once again given flesh.* I was quite happy with being MMOless and getting hyped over some other game that was on the horizon. However, one of my e-buddies (who I actually convinced to play CoH shortly after launch, hunh) told me I should come back because he had one of those 15 bonus days codes. I guess I'll see in a week or so if I want Samurai armor that bad...
*Only cool people recognize that line.
[/ QUOTE ]
Perhaps MMOs aren't for you. But so many people have felt that the post-Jack era has been the halcyon days for CoH/V. If loot/crafting and the like aren't to your liking then really perhaps there's another game you might like more.
I hope you find that perfect game that can add content instantly and so doesn't need loot and crafting and all the things you find annoying. Perhaps someday. And maybe that game will be the best ever....
After I get them to add loot and crafting, of course!
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.