Very well said Gecko... I'm getting tired of this completely tired argument as well...
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Say what you want about ganking, but I would find this super fun.
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I've played a game that was set up this way, thinking it might not be a problem - not my cup of tea, but so long as my own flag is off, what would it hurt?
I don't play that game any more.
I'm not asking for hardcore immersion, I just don't want to see heroes and villians palling around. It's stupid. I'm sick of co-op content as much as anyone else, and I'd like to see more Hero VS Villians content instead. Making all zones open and not giving us any PvP content is so far removed from the comic books this game was based on it's laughable. I don't care if other games do it, this isn't other games. Maybe in Good and Evil can mingle in one world, Rebels and Imperials in another, but Heroes and Villians, just, no.
The arguement is not any more tired than the one FOR opening all zones.
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I'm not asking for hardcore immersion, I just don't want to see heroes and villians palling around. It's stupid. I'm sick of co-op content as much as anyone else, and I'd like to see more Hero VS Villians content instead. Making all zones open and not giving us any PvP content is so far removed from the comic books this game was based on it's laughable. I don't care if other games do it, this isn't other games. Maybe in Good and Evil can mingle in one world, Rebels and Imperials in another, but Heroes and Villians, just, no.
The arguement is not any more tired than the one FOR opening all zones.
[/ QUOTE ]Wouldn't be co-op content. What's stupid and silly is shutting people off in their own zones.
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I'm sick of co-op content as much as anyone else, and I'd like to see more Hero VS Villians content instead.
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I'm sorry... WHAT? Who's sick of co-op content? NOT ME...
I'm sick of co-op zones that disallow trading of inspirations... that is what I am sick of. . .
I disagree completely Saying that putting villains into paragon city would break immersion. What are you talking about? This would be the pinnacle of immersion. Let me ask a question if you are a super villain why would you not go wherever you felt like to get fat loot? In almost every comic book that I can think of the arch enemy of most every hero is usually quite close to home. For example Superman had Lex Luther and Spider man had Venom(just to name one) both of which were in there respective home cities; there are many other examples. However it makes no sense to me what so ever that the true super villains the players, would not be striking at paragon city if they thought the profits were good. Obviously the villain groups already in paragon city think they can make it big there seeing as they stay there even though it is a city of heroes. I just don't see how this would break immersion I think letting villains and heroes mix is much more immersive then the current system.
As for my thoughts on co-op
Would villains not use whoever they thought necessary to reach their goal? I'm not seeing how co-op with heroes would be a bad thing; if you really are villainous you would help a hero with his/her mission stab them in the back as soon as they helped you to your goal and run away. However this only really pertains to certain objectives such as saving the world. As a villain your not helping a hero save the world for all of humanity your helping them save it so you can take it over.
Just how I see it.
Always on Justice
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I'm not asking for hardcore immersion, I just don't want to see heroes and villians palling around. It's stupid. I'm sick of co-op content as much as anyone else, and I'd like to see more Hero VS Villians content instead. Making all zones open and not giving us any PvP content is so far removed from the comic books this game was based on it's laughable. I don't care if other games do it, this isn't other games. Maybe in Good and Evil can mingle in one world, Rebels and Imperials in another, but Heroes and Villians, just, no.
The arguement is not any more tired than the one FOR opening all zones.
[/ QUOTE ]Wouldn't be co-op content. What's stupid and silly is shutting people off in their own zones.
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Then what would it be? The way I see it, it's co-op or PvP. A 'neutral' just doesn't make sense.
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I'm not asking for hardcore immersion, I just don't want to see heroes and villians palling around. It's stupid. I'm sick of co-op content as much as anyone else, and I'd like to see more Hero VS Villians content instead. Making all zones open and not giving us any PvP content is so far removed from the comic books this game was based on it's laughable. I don't care if other games do it, this isn't other games. Maybe in Good and Evil can mingle in one world, Rebels and Imperials in another, but Heroes and Villians, just, no.
The arguement is not any more tired than the one FOR opening all zones.
[/ QUOTE ]Wouldn't be co-op content. What's stupid and silly is shutting people off in their own zones.
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Then what would it be? The way I see it, it's co-op or PvP. A 'neutral' just doesn't make sense.
[/ QUOTE ]Oh bull. Neutral makes as much sense as cross server markets and heroes who ignore the hellions robbing the innocents in Atlas Park because they are grey to them. What makes no sense are people who keep saying it's all one game, yet everything is regulated into one side or the other.
You try to claim pocket D is immersion breaking yet the rules and laws have already been explained in game context.
There are many many more things that are immersion breaking and as far as game sense, you don't know every villain that walks the street. Most of the time, in game wise, you don't even know who the big bad ones are until your contact makes mention of them.
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Maybe in Good and Evil can mingle in one world, Rebels and Imperials in another, but Heroes and Villians, just, no.
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That's b.s.
Good/Rebels/Heroes - Evil/Imperials/Villains
Doesn't matter what label you stick on it, it's the same thing. If it works in 2 games it can work in 3.
No.
More content, yes. If the addition of new missions, story-arcs and for the love of whatever-you-hold-sacred Strike Forces, and Trials require new zones, then go for it. But empty zones are pointless and stupid, and I don't want new zones unless they come with a lot of stuff to do in them. Villains don't need more exclusive zones (and we're not likely to get them either) but we would very much like more stuff to do. I don't see what's so offensive about adding new content to red side and blue at the same time.
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Maybe in Good and Evil can mingle in one world, Rebels and Imperials in another, but Heroes and Villians, just, no.
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That's b.s.
Good/Rebels/Heroes - Evil/Imperials/Villains
Doesn't matter what label you stick on it, it's the same thing. If it works in 2 games it can work in 3.
[/ QUOTE ]Considering in the Superman cartoon, Lex Luther ran a global corp, and many other such shows, the villain was always out and about in the streets, mingling with the normal citizenry. Not all villains go out ot destroy the world.
Villains attack hero cities all the time, and frequently live there, as Silverspar said.
they usually don't spend all their time attacking other villains in caves for no reason.
CoX is about as superhero/villain as world of warcraft is a superhero game.
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Villains attack hero cities all the time, and frequently live there, as Silverspar said.
they usually don't spend all their time attacking other villains in caves for no reason.
CoX is about as superhero/villain as world of warcraft is a superhero game.
[/ QUOTE ]We can also talk more immersion breaking things;
Warburg
Bloody Bay
Why are heroes fighting themselves over nukes? Why are heroes using WMDs at all? Heroes should be stopping the use of WMDs, not trying to keep them for themselves and encourage their use.
Why are heroes even allowed in Bloody Bay? That's called an invasion of a sovereign country. Help was not asked for, and in fact, the strooyline states that Arachnos is moving the citizenry out, yet Longbow and heroes are in Bloody Bay still, basically enacting war, just like they are in Mercy, and Nerva Archipelago.
Why is this thread stickied anyway? It doesn't offer anything new that hasn't been suggested dozens if not 100s of times before. And all the whining and complaining is the same too. Is this a sign that the devs are looking for forum reactions to the possibilities of opening up all zones, or is it something more sinister? Only time will tell...
Winner of Players' Choice Best Villainous Arc 2010: Fear and Loathing on Striga; ID #350522
Actually before the thread was jacked it was about possibility of making new zones for villains only. Nothing to do with reusing exiting hero only zones. Though it has just kind of gone that way.
Always on Justice
I think it went that way when the clearest option for having more zones for each side was just to allow players to cross over into enemy territory. It really doesn't make any sense that all of the new content for heroes and villians combined is based around them working together...again and again. PvP zones don't feel right. Sure you got H vs V going on, but it's all...regulated and expected. Finding a REAL villain in Atlas Park on your way to the next mission, plotting some devious trap, and then fighting him and chasing him out of there is so much more interesting than going to the pre-determined PvP zone where you expect them to be, having a clearly "line in the sand" and then fighting some explicitly PvP spec'd build... then getting [censored] out in broadcast chat.
Having set PvP zones makes PvP viable for only the most hardcore players that have strict PvP power sets built to PvP in that specific level range. Two non-FOTM players, just random builds, maybe not the best for PvP, hell maybe it's a complete mismatch, but still, it helps bring PvP into the heart of the game in a way that's fun and accessible.
Stickied?! Wow.
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As interesting and different the zones are, they get very dull very quickly. There is not a "bright" zone like there is on CoH. Just because they are villains do not mean they all live in slums or gloomy neighborhoods. I would love to see the Villains get a "bright", "sleek" techy zone...but I digress...
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Yeppers. While I don't mind the idea of The Hollows getting a revamp (especially after how well Faultline turned out), villains need more UNIQUE content. While some of the zones I would love to be opened for both sides, like Striga, Croatoa and The Shard since all are not in or near Greater Paragon, I don't like the thought of opening every zone to each faction.
I have really had to bite my tongue for the last couple days as to not poo-poo WW's glory, but a NEW villain zone or two wouldn't be a bad thing.
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Villains attack hero cities all the time, and frequently live there, as Silverspar said.
they usually don't spend all their time attacking other villains in caves for no reason.
CoX is about as superhero/villain as world of warcraft is a superhero game.
[/ QUOTE ]We can also talk more immersion breaking things;
Warburg
Bloody Bay
Why are heroes fighting themselves over nukes? Why are heroes using WMDs at all? Heroes should be stopping the use of WMDs, not trying to keep them for themselves and encourage their use.
Why are heroes even allowed in Bloody Bay? That's called an invasion of a sovereign country. Help was not asked for, and in fact, the strooyline states that Arachnos is moving the citizenry out, yet Longbow and heroes are in Bloody Bay still, basically enacting war, just like they are in Mercy, and Nerva Archipelago.
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I agree. the closest we get is siren's call, but then its "oops, can't go further, invincible drones that kill everything rendering heroes useless (why not just put these things everywhere?) are a roadblock!"
I'm not saying change the game, but damn is it immersion-breaking.
I'd like to see hunting reserves set up. As a means of testing the Destined Ones, and to analyze combat potential of enemies, set up by Lord Arachnos. These reserves could have City of Heroes critters, as well as NPC groups (Trolls and Outcasts for example, humans are among the most dangerous game, even if they are mutants or altered beings 
).
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Thread has been stickied but there may be some merit to scrubbing and reposting with the main list as the OP, which can be edited and updated similar to the Guide to Guide sections.
Either way keep me posted if it changes.
Ex
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I would like to put all those links into the original post... but I don't seem to be able to edit it now :/
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I'm not asking for hardcore immersion, I just don't want to see heroes and villians palling around. It's stupid. I'm sick of co-op content as much as anyone else, and I'd like to see more Hero VS Villians content instead. Making all zones open and not giving us any PvP content is so far removed from the comic books this game was based on it's laughable. I don't care if other games do it, this isn't other games. Maybe in Good and Evil can mingle in one world, Rebels and Imperials in another, but Heroes and Villians, just, no.
The arguement is not any more tired than the one FOR opening all zones.
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Who said anything about Co-op? I said in PvE zones, you provide PvE missions where you oppose the other faction.
And if you don't think that villain and heroes often pal around in comics, I'll give you the same refrain I often use:
Read moar comics.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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Villains attack hero cities all the time, and frequently live there, as Silverspar said.
[u]they usually don't spend all their time attacking other villains in caves for no reason.[u]
CoX is about as superhero/villain as world of warcraft is a superhero game.
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Quoted and Emphasized for Truth
This is my point. Immersion is a garbage argument that is holding both heroes and villains back from more content in this instance. I like both sides and want to see them both get the rich content of the WHOLE game.
I want to be able to live out stories like when Magneto LEAD the X-Men and taught the New Mutants.
I want to be able to be Gambit or Bishop and turn to the bad side because you think it's best for those you care about.
None of that is possible now. Now you are relegated to your side and that's it. It's stupid, and if we're going to talk about "Immersion" then Stasis has just presented the most cogent reason why immersion would REQUIRE that we do this.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
I'm finding this hilarious how you all accuse me of using a tired arguement when you are repeating yourselves as well.
My final response: I don't give a damn how un-immersed this game is now, there's not point in making it worse.
I'm a bit disappointed it ever turned into this, because I really like the OP's suggestion until Geko hijacked the thread, like he does with every other of this topic.
Well there are several things villains do need, as it is easily seeable that villains still are not up to where heroes are, and parity is still needed for those things that are lacking.
<ul type="square">[*]Parity for the Hero Revamps
It sould of been done when the changes were/are being made to update those unused zones, but whether because of lack of resources, time, or foresight, they haven't. When the hero zone revamps were being designed, villain equivalent content should be added to tell the villain side of the story, either in one or two new contacts, or a complete Strike Force. I would prefer Strike Forces, since that would kill several birds with one stone; Filling in the Strike Force holes we have, parity with the new story or zone updates, letting villains affect Paragon City, ect.
For the Faultline revamp, I would of had Arbiter Sands added as a Strike Force contact in the 20 to 25 range, to parity the upper level range of Faultline. This would tell the story of what Sands is really trying to do, and let the villains try to get the PCM for themselves, or whoever.
For the now Hollows revamp, though minor, I would add a 10 to 15 Strike Force contact in Port Oakes dealing with instigating the war between the Outcasts and Trolls, as well as several other things. This would help fix the problem of getting the troll and outcast badge for starters and also introduce villains to Strike Force content sooner, like for heroes. The contact could be one of the Family, trying to keep the war going so they can keep pushing their Dyne and weapons on both the Outcasts and the Trolls since it is big bucks and the heroes are interfering with that.[/list]
<ul type="square">[*]Zone Parity
This will require a bit more work, and it's something I would only expect to happen gradually. Zone parity for Striga and Croatoa, Croatoa being an excellent source of lower level magic salvage, something villains lack. Considering the also exceptionally difficult task of getting red caps badge, which is required if you want the red caps dagger, villains have to wait for either the Winter Event, which is a very long time, or hope someone has the valentines event and is willing to suffer constant mission resets with that, which both are, quite frankly, unnacceptable. Since we still have four islands that are unused and uncharted, one of those could be opened up for this, complete with missions and strike force content.
A parity of Striga zone, a villain version, would also be nice. Considering Striga's relative distance from Paragon, and it's in international waters, American law would basically have n sway over it anyways, as Striga is pretty much isolated. Giving Council contacts to help the Council succeed, going against all the hero contacts would be a good start, with possibly one of the top Council guys handing out a Strike Force to help insure Burkholder's robot see's completion.
Then comes the Shadow Shard, which is for all points of fact, should be aco-op zone, since Rularuu presents a bigger threat than even the Rikti present, since Rularuu is City of's version of Galactus, except he devours whole dimensions, not worlds.[/list]
<ul type="square">[*]Villain Zone Setup and Aesthetics
I dunno why it was decided, I can understand small portions, but every single section of each island? Clean up some of the villain zone areas. Not every place should be dirty and in ill-repair. The beach along the north end of Villa Montrose? I doubt the Family or Mooks would care if there is fighting going on between them. They wouldn't let a tourist trap and a source of funds go into disrepair like that.
Grandville needs a complete rework, I think the devs admitted that much, but finding the time to do it is another problem.
Another point of contention on villain aesthetics are the fact that all villain stores and trainers are Arachnos. Get rid of them. Put in real villain trainers, ones with faces and names, and move the origin stores into buildings with real sellers and faces, helping with the pleasing sense, and also to avoid being griefed while shopping. I can't even begin to say how many times I got griefed going to the magic or mutant store in Sharkhead while shopping because someone thought it was cute to lure the warwolves over to me. Arachnos should only run generic stores, just like Longbow does for heroes, and certain villains should be trainers, like Olivia Darque, High Roller, and the like, it makes the game feel more alive and less impersonal when you got a face you can go to. Arachnos tries to put up a face, it doesn't help their face when their operatives can physically be seen training villains, so instead having real villain faces would not only help make the game more immersive, it makes the face Arachnos tries to put up more believable.
This also applies to the respec trainer in Nerva. Move him into the coffee shop as well, because many people have died trying to respec because he is right there next to a bunch of large spawns.
And speaking of in doors, put some of the brokers in doors to, to give more life to the isles. Brokers like Drea the Hook should be inside places like Blackbeard's Pub. We should be making shadey deals in dark bars and such, not out in the open where any two-bit hero or Longbow agent can see us.[/list]
<ul type="square">[*]The Black Helicopter Line and Others
Great idea, at first, but with one major problem. Their placement being so close to the ferries make them useless for starters. What's the point in having them at all if you can just use the boat, with more zone choices, right next to them? The Black Helicopter Line should be moved away from the Ferry and offer zone choices from differing zones from the Ferry, and also help in getting to different points in especially larger zones.
For instance, in Nerva, the Black Helicopter should be placed towards the northern end of the zone, near Primeva somewhere, which would fit much better than it being in the south near the Ferry, considering the Arachnos soldiers on Primeva. The Grandville Line should be towards the northern end as well, and St. Martial one should be in the Flop. All the Black Helicopter Lines should be connected, so one can jump a copter to go to Mercy, Cap, Grandville, Nerva, or Martial. It makes little sense for them to be there otherwise.
Also on a point of contention, the tunnel between Cap and Oakes needs to be opened up and aesthetics of the cars driving through should be added. I see little reason the tunnel is closed and it would add another go to point for villains and make the islands feel more alive.[/list]