A Non-PVPer's Solution To PVP
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2008-01-25 14:21 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd rather they just implemented an observer mode like in the arena. You can view the battle and learn a lot about tatics in the zone, but can't interact in anyway. Bascially no pressure at all while seeing what pvp is like. Problem solved.
[/ QUOTE ]
No pressure....and no appeal either. PVP isn't available for people to casually pick up or not at their whim. It's viewable through a porthole and still screams "stay out of my PVP zone you PVE-loving newb".
This sounds more like a thinly veiled solution for PVPers to not have to deal with PVEers than something that will expand the appeal of PVP to the general population.
Furthermore, this does nothing to change the climate of play in the zones. It would serve as a risk-less window into an area where people are behaving pettily and showing no sportsmanship.
An observer camera would be a PVP repellant, not a PVP draw.
...Granted though that this has more of sugar coating of rationale for 'PVEer Go Home' than "just take the PVE elements out of the zones entirely" does 
.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'm of the mind that you SHOULD NOT have access to any pve rewards without the fact that pvpers can stop you. Its a PVP ZONE. Period.
An the observer camera is used all the time in the arena for people to learn tatics with no pvp pressure.
sounds like you want to have your cake and eat it too. Which is why i'm against your suggestion. The more I read your response the more its sounds like you just want folks to be able to ignore the glaring zone warning you get about it being a pvp zone. To be able to get badges, nukes, shivans with no risk. Or am I wrong? 
Doesn't sound like you're really trying to improve pvp at all. If the idea is to give folks a feel for pvp and to have them see it with little pressure of getting attacked then why are you so against an obeserver mode?
Or simply remove all pve rewards from the zone and make a new zone with all the pve rewards in them. And then make REAL PVP rewards which you get from pvping.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Let me test a theory here.
To address this point:
Furthermore, this does nothing to change the climate of play in the zones. It would serve as a risk-less window into an area where people are behaving pettily and showing no sportsmanship.
How about they add to the ovbserver mode in that you can't see b-cast either or talk? Basically you You can only see what the players are doing and what powers they are using. Also add a PVP attribute type window that you can click on any two (or more) players fighting and see what powers they are using as they use them in the zone. Basically an pvp zone observer mode on steroids with the explicit purpose of using it as a learning tool.
How is that for a real learning environment?
And then when you want to REALLY jump in, you head over to your base (can even add a "teleoprt to base contact button" on that observer window/attribute window to zoom your "camera" self immeadietly to the zone contact) click on a contact and turn the observer mode off, you get the standard 30 sec timer, and then you can join in with your toon.
I await your response.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
[ QUOTE ]
I'm of the mind that you SHOULD NOT have access to any pve rewards without the fact that pvpers can stop you. Its a PVP ZONE. Period.
[/ QUOTE ]
And the suggestion is to change it. There is no doubt to anybody that drastic changes need to be done to PvP zones. HB's idea is a drastic change, and makes the current PvP system more friendly by adding elements to the PvP system that will add a "You have to be nice or I won't toggle to PvP mode" element to it. The idea is to get rid of the majority of the trash talk and breaking of the rules so people don't get their accounts banned. That is one of the main issues I've seen in the thread Ex created.
[ QUOTE ]
The more I read your response the more its sounds like you just want folks to be able to ignore the glaring zone warning you get about it being a pvp zone.
[/ QUOTE ]
That is exactly what should be done. Move that glaring sign into the zone so people will actually step foot into the zone instead of just passing by the entrance every now and then. Why not move those click contact mission into the zone instead of on the outside and put a flag toggle in the zone. The only thing it would do is increase the population in the zone, and if there a nice PvPers in the zone, maybe an occasional conversation along these lines
PvPer: "You want to PvP"
PvEer: "Dunno, never really tried it"
PvPer: "It's ok. I can help you out, and you don't really lose anything to try it."
would take place. That's the whole goal of revamping the PvP system. That's what we need more of.
[ QUOTE ]
To be able to get badges, nukes, shivans with no risk. Or am I wrong?
[/ QUOTE ]
If a person chooses to use PvE instead of PvP in the zone, the suggestion was to increase the amount of PvP
HB:
[ QUOTE ]
Flagging
<...>
But far more importantly this "clears the decks" so to speak in the PVP zones to add new play content.
<...>
The mood is slightly improved since gross misbehavior can be avoided and there is awareness that potential playmates might have to be talked into participating. Traffic increases dramatically, improving exposure and creating a larger pool of potential players to entice into joining a PVP session.
<...>
This also doesn't "destroy PVP" by any stretch of reality. All those who PVP will still PVP. Those who had thought about it but didn't want to make design compromises for the rest of the game will give it a second look. And those who avoided PVP zones 100% of the time are now free to enter the zone and possibly be invited (or repelled) by what they see to give it a try.
<...>
Bloody Bay
<...>
Mini Game
<...>
In PVE mode, the npc opposition can be made much much harder.
<...>
[/ QUOTE ]
Those are some important issues that he covers in his original post, and ones that I agree with. Things have to be done, and if it's not these ideas, then it will need to be others.
[ QUOTE ]
Or simply remove all pve rewards from the zone and make a new zone with all the pve rewards in them. And then make REAL PVP rewards which you get from pvping.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with removing PvE content from PvP. It would ruin Sirens Call (I've seen a few people post that they like the current mini game conflict with Long Bow and Aracnos).
[ QUOTE ]
How about they add to the ovbserver mode in that you can't see b-cast either or talk? Basically you You can only see what the players are doing and what powers they are using. Also add a PVP attribute type window that you can click on any two (or more) players fighting and see what powers they are using as they use them in the zone.
[/ QUOTE ]
Removing broadcast does nothing to curb the current atmosphere of the PvP zone, and eliminates the observer from asking questions about PvP. Only adding an observer bot doesn't actually get them into the zone. A reason needs to be added to improve the overall atmosphere of a PvP zone and peoples attitudes in the zones.
A point I would also like to add, basically about the flat line of increase in growth, is that the PvP environment is losing people as fast as people become interested in it because of the environment. When looking for an MMO the first thing I check is to see if they have a PvP system. The best PvP system I've seen thus far is the system WoW uses. Not necessarily the PvP/Non-PvP server, but how they actually have it set up, being able to zone into instances with PvP, and they have PvP zones chocked full of PvE element. That PvE element in the PvP zones is what needed. The one MMO that I really tried to like, but just couldn't was D&D Stormreach. They made a joke out of how a campaign can run, and had no PvP/Controversial elements to the game.
I don't want CoH to toss PvP to the way side, and start making advancements to the PvE system (blasters shooting while held) without any regard to the PvP system. But if they do something, and it doesn't work, that is exactly what will happen, and that is when I will start looking for a new MMO.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm of the mind that you SHOULD NOT have access to any pve rewards without the fact that pvpers can stop you. Its a PVP ZONE. Period.
[/ QUOTE ]
And the suggestion is to change it. There is no doubt to anybody that drastic changes need to be done to PvP zones. HB's idea is a drastic change, and makes the current PvP system more friendly by adding elements to the PvP system that will add a "You have to be nice or I won't toggle to PvP mode" element to it. The idea is to get rid of the majority of the trash talk and breaking of the rules so people don't get their accounts banned. That is one of the main issues I've seen in the thread Ex created.
[ QUOTE ]
The more I read your response the more its sounds like you just want folks to be able to ignore the glaring zone warning you get about it being a pvp zone.
[/ QUOTE ]
That is exactly what should be done. Move that glaring sign into the zone so people will actually step foot into the zone instead of just passing by the entrance every now and then. Why not move those click contact mission into the zone instead of on the outside and put a flag toggle in the zone. The only thing it would do is increase the population in the zone, and if there a nice PvPers in the zone, maybe an occasional conversation along these lines
PvPer: "You want to PvP"
PvEer: "Dunno, never really tried it"
PvPer: "It's ok. I can help you out, and you don't really lose anything to try it."
would take place. That's the whole goal of revamping the PvP system. That's what we need more of.
[ QUOTE ]
To be able to get badges, nukes, shivans with no risk. Or am I wrong?
[/ QUOTE ]
If a person chooses to use PvE instead of PvP in the zone, the suggestion was to increase the amount of PvP
HB:
[ QUOTE ]
Flagging
<...>
But far more importantly this "clears the decks" so to speak in the PVP zones to add new play content.
<...>
The mood is slightly improved since gross misbehavior can be avoided and there is awareness that potential playmates might have to be talked into participating. Traffic increases dramatically, improving exposure and creating a larger pool of potential players to entice into joining a PVP session.
<...>
This also doesn't "destroy PVP" by any stretch of reality. All those who PVP will still PVP. Those who had thought about it but didn't want to make design compromises for the rest of the game will give it a second look. And those who avoided PVP zones 100% of the time are now free to enter the zone and possibly be invited (or repelled) by what they see to give it a try.
<...>
Bloody Bay
<...>
Mini Game
<...>
In PVE mode, the npc opposition can be made much much harder.
<...>
[/ QUOTE ]
Those are some important issues that he covers in his original post, and ones that I agree with. Things have to be done, and if it's not these ideas, then it will need to be others.
[ QUOTE ]
Or simply remove all pve rewards from the zone and make a new zone with all the pve rewards in them. And then make REAL PVP rewards which you get from pvping.
[/ QUOTE ]
I don't agree with removing PvE content from PvP. It would ruin Sirens Call (I've seen a few people post that they like the current mini game conflict with Long Bow and Aracnos).
[ QUOTE ]
How about they add to the ovbserver mode in that you can't see b-cast either or talk? Basically you You can only see what the players are doing and what powers they are using. Also add a PVP attribute type window that you can click on any two (or more) players fighting and see what powers they are using as they use them in the zone.
[/ QUOTE ]
Removing broadcast does nothing to curb the current atmosphere of the PvP zone, and eliminates the observer from asking questions about PvP. Only adding an observer bot doesn't actually get them into the zone. A reason needs to be added to improve the overall atmosphere of a PvP zone and peoples attitudes in the zones.
A point I would also like to add, basically about the flat line of increase in growth, is that the PvP environment is losing people as fast as people become interested in it because of the environment. When looking for an MMO the first thing I check is to see if they have a PvP system. The best PvP system I've seen thus far is the system WoW uses. Not necessarily the PvP/Non-PvP server, but how they actually have it set up, being able to zone into instances with PvP, and they have PvP zones chocked full of PvE element. That PvE element in the PvP zones is what needed. The one MMO that I really tried to like, but just couldn't was D&D Stormreach. They made a joke out of how a campaign can run, and had no PvP/Controversial elements to the game.
I don't want CoH to toss PvP to the way side, and start making advancements to the PvE system (blasters shooting while held) without any regard to the PvP system. But if they do something, and it doesn't work, that is exactly what will happen, and that is when I will start looking for a new MMO.
[/ QUOTE ]
And I don't think this idea will solve the trash talk or the atmosphere. On the contrary i think it will make it worse.
We'll have to agree to disagree.
EDIT: Also I think its highly wishful thinking to think you can change people behavior in pvp with a pvp off flag.
Also if pvp on its own is not good enough (read imablances all around) then no amount of LURING is going to save the system. The imablances themselves need to be fixed. Also enforcement of the over the top trashtalk (read sutff clearly against the EULA) should be enforced.
Also note you can CURRENTLY remove b-cast from your chat box and still send tells.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
[ QUOTE ]
Guild Wars, a PvP focused game, had an increase of 57%
[/ QUOTE ]
Guild Wars is not a good metric to use, due to its using ANYONE WHO EVER BUYS A BOX EVEN IF THEY ONLY PLAY FOR 10 MINUTES in its numbers.
Just making sure that gets its mention.
Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Guild Wars, a PvP focused game, had an increase of 57%
[/ QUOTE ]
Guild Wars is not a good metric to use, due to its using ANYONE WHO EVER BUYS A BOX EVEN IF THEY ONLY PLAY FOR 10 MINUTES in its numbers.
Just making sure that gets its mention.
[/ QUOTE ]
The key to Guild Wars success is not as simple as "it's a PvP game, it has succeeded, therefore PvP is necessary to succeed". Not even close.
For starters, calling Guild Wars a "PvP focused game" is even less true than calling CoX a "PvE focused game". Guild Wars was designed from the ground up as a two-part game with both parts permanently separated. There are features which exist that intice people to experiment with the half they do not prefer, but the separation itself is never breached. It is two games in one with zero subscription fee. The cornerstone to its profit model is massive box sales. If those sales ever slide, either Guild Wars will go away or another system (such as retail sales of weapons, armor and skills) will be put in place.
The vast majority of loyal players who log in every day are not PvPers. In fact, most PvPers leave after only a few weeks. The core body of their population is the PvE "roleplaying" side of the game which is why every single expansion adds massive extensions to the PvE side while making only minimal improvements to the PvP side. Roleplaying is what sells all those millions of boxes, not PvP.
Granted, originally the design concept was for PvP to be the cornerstone of marketing with the PvE portion used to train up all those "carebears" enough to give them the confidence to play PvP. For better or worse, that is NOT how things worked out. Much to the surprise of everyone (except perhaps me), subscriptionless PvE became the cornerstone to their success.
This is one reason why I keep pointing to Guild Wars as the future of PvP. It allows the PvP player exactly what they want, while also providing the tools necessary to create a lasting PvE community and keep the game alive.
Human_Being's suggestion, unlike the one I myself have repeatedly made on these boards, is quite possibly the only realistic alternative to curing what ails the PvP component of CoX. In many ways, I like his suggestion much better than my own. (If you want to read mine use Search, please.) None of the PvP fans in CoX like my suggestion. However, many of them have popped in here to say they like Human_Being's suggestion.
Naysayers are still bountiful, of course. There are always those who resist change, especially when they have a vested interest in the current system.
================================================== ===
AE Story Arc #536752: Torn Asunder
An army from far, far away has been driven from their homeland and landed on Earth. They desperately need a new home and they're liking the look of ours.
================================================== ===
I'm mostly objecting to it being used as any kind of metric. I'm not offering a judgement on its gameplay, but using "Guild Wars Has X Sales or Subscribers", to clarify.
It may be a stellar game and the best thing since sliced bread, but its "subscription" numbers are, in my opinion, best left out of any honest discussion with subscription-based MMOs.
Dawncaller - The Circle of Dawn
Too many blasted alts to list, but all on Virtue.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm mostly objecting to it being used as any kind of metric. I'm not offering a judgement on its gameplay, but using "Guild Wars Has X Sales or Subscribers", to clarify.
It may be a stellar game and the best thing since sliced bread, but its "subscription" numbers are, in my opinion, best left out of any honest discussion with subscription-based MMOs.
[/ QUOTE ]
I concur!
Guess I didn't make that aspect clear enough. 
================================================== ===
AE Story Arc #536752: Torn Asunder
An army from far, far away has been driven from their homeland and landed on Earth. They desperately need a new home and they're liking the look of ours.
================================================== ===
<QR>
The original post was a bit long, so I only read a little of it, but allow me to contribute one thing to this discussion.
Q) Flying_Carcass, why don't you normally enter PvP zones or Arenas?
A) Well, while I enjoy a good fight, I hate a long wait. The PvP zones and arenas are largely empty, so why bother sitting around, waiting for someone to show up when I can Go. Hunt. Kill Skuls. and get some instant gratification? I think that is one reason people don't bother with the zones/arena, no one's there. The way to rememdy this situation is to increase the player pool in PvP zones/arenas, one way to do this is link the zones/arenas across servers so that PvPers from all servers can get a shot at each other and populate the PvP areas, thus enticing more people to join in.
heh, Zhao, you can count me on that list. I purchased the game on a whim, and THEN read a little about it. I dont pvp much and so I have yet to even load the game!
*I am referring to Guild Wars*
Warlord: You are looking at a man that can run you through with this sword without batting an eye.
Monk: You are looking at a man who can be run through with that sword without batting an eye.
--old Korean folk tale
I liked everything you said, except the part about challenges and never being able to retrieve IOs from the PvP version of your toon. Not sure if I just mis-understood what you said, but I think if you were to respec your PvP build, then you would be able to retrieve IOs from it, as long as they wern't in use by the PvE build.
Nothing about challenges that you mentioned appealed to me. I support everything else that you mentioned. Great post and well thought out ideas.
I like basically everything stated by Human_Being's post on how to fix PVP. There are obviously a few rough edges.. The biggest thing is to be able to keep the PVP Zones PVPable, and also PVEable, and I believe he described a fairly viable solution to that. (Would be neat if in PVP Zones the PVP "Flagged" look Ghostly and Vice Versa and obviously couldn't affect each other in any way, form, or fashion. Could be explained using the Shadow Shard.. Speaking of which...needs work..)
QR: I'm replying only to the OP.
I love your suggestions, if even a third of that post were implemented it would make PvP so much better.
[ QUOTE ]
Not sure if I just mis-understood what you said, but I think if you were to respec your PvP build, then you would be able to retrieve IOs from it, as long as they wern't in use by the PvE build.
[/ QUOTE ]
If there's any way to get an Enh out of a switchable "PVP build", then it instantly turns into a duplication mechanism. Can't be dupin' rares now can we .
[ QUOTE ]
Also if pvp on its own is not good enough (read imablances all around) then no amount of LURING is going to save the system. The imbalances themselves need to be fixed
[/ QUOTE ]
The Great PvP Imbalance Fix:
You enter the zone.
Your opponent enters the zone.
Both of your power-trays gray completely out except for two powers: Brawl and Sprint.
You are now equal, guys. Parity achieved. Have at it.
I heard that's how they do it on Justice.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
[ QUOTE ]
I heard that's how they do it on Justice.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's how we do everything on Justice, including hamidon raids.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also if pvp on its own is not good enough (read imablances all around) then no amount of LURING is going to save the system. The imbalances themselves need to be fixed
[/ QUOTE ]
The Great PvP Imbalance Fix:
You enter the zone.
Your opponent enters the zone.
Both of your power-trays gray completely out except for two powers: Brawl and Sprint.
You are now equal, guys. Parity achieved. Have at it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Naw, Insp slots will be far better for the higher level guy. Not mention Purps.
Masterminds annoy everybody, sooner or later. Heck, Masterminds annoy themselves.
-ShadowsBetween
I am not an avid fan of reading, especially things that are that long, but OMFG dude, BRILLIANT!!!!!!
/signedX(there is no number to signify the ammount of win in this idea)
[ QUOTE ]
The way to rememdy this situation is to increase the player pool in PvP zones/arenas, one way to do this is link the zones/arenas across servers so that PvPers from all servers can get a shot at each other and populate the PvP areas, thus enticing more people to join in.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with this. Also, do this for Pocket D.
As for the main subject of this thread, I have to say that there's nothing I would love more than to speed into the PvP zones, grab the exploration badges, toy with the mobs for a little bit and laugh at all those fools sending me duel requests as I exit back to the real game.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also if pvp on its own is not good enough (read imablances all around) then no amount of LURING is going to save the system. The imbalances themselves need to be fixed
[/ QUOTE ]
The Great PvP Imbalance Fix:
You enter the zone.
Your opponent enters the zone.
Both of your power-trays gray completely out except for two powers: Brawl and Sprint.
You are now equal, guys. Parity achieved. Have at it.
[/ QUOTE ]
But Controllers get less HP than Tankers!
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The way to rememdy this situation is to increase the player pool in PvP zones/arenas, one way to do this is link the zones/arenas across servers so that PvPers from all servers can get a shot at each other and populate the PvP areas, thus enticing more people to join in.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with this. Also, do this for Pocket D.
[/ QUOTE ]
Many people's complaints with PVP in CoX are with the experience itself, not necessarily the population of the zones themselves. Indeed, this might appeal to the currently shrinking PVP population, but is very unlikely to bring in or hold many new players. This would be work by the Devs to no profitable benefit.
[ QUOTE ]
As for the main subject of this thread, I have to say that there's nothing I would love more than to speed into the PvP zones, grab the exploration badges, toy with the mobs for a little bit and laugh at all those fools sending me duel requests as I exit back to the real game.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's what many do already. Well maybe not the laughing part, but they don't bother to stop and PVP.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The way to rememdy this situation is to increase the player pool in PvP zones/arenas, one way to do this is link the zones/arenas across servers so that PvPers from all servers can get a shot at each other and populate the PvP areas, thus enticing more people to join in.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with this. Also, do this for Pocket D.
As for the main subject of this thread, I have to say that there's nothing I would love more than to speed into the PvP zones, grab the exploration badges, toy with the mobs for a little bit and laugh at all those fools sending me duel requests as I exit back to the real game.
[/ QUOTE ]
I'd agree, except you should get no badges or toys.
MisterPiggins!
Comics Shaven Forums
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Also if pvp on its own is not good enough (read imablances all around) then no amount of LURING is going to save the system. The imbalances themselves need to be fixed
[/ QUOTE ]
The Great PvP Imbalance Fix:
You enter the zone.
Your opponent enters the zone.
Both of your power-trays gray completely out except for two powers: Brawl and Sprint.
You are now equal, guys. Parity achieved. Have at it.
[/ QUOTE ]
But Controllers get less HP than Tankers!
[/ QUOTE ]
PVP SUCKS NERF TANKER SPRINT
[ QUOTE ]
You're not selling me so far.
PVE elements are regular subscription holders. Adding new play elements at minimum pay for themselves and with the re-investment stand a good chance of expanding the playerbase through new subscribers and returnees who find something they like (or just the disappearance of something they didn't like).
[/ QUOTE ]
According to the last several financial reports from NCSoft, CoX subscriptions haven't grown in any appreciable ammount since Issue 7. In fact, this last quarter sales dropped 7% for CoH and 10% for CoV. Please tell me how all the Dev time spent on PvE has helped the game grow.
[ QUOTE ]
PVP on the other hand is a subscription loser unless the Community Team is directed to focus on it and then only barely breaks even. It's an open question whether the Community Team might get better results switching the focus of their attention elsewhere in the near future.
[/ QUOTE ]
PvP is not anymore of a subscription loser than PvE at this point. The posts from Ex Libris clearly say that PvP is "stagnant". It's not gaining anymore than it is losing at present, the same as PvE. That is a problem because it was expected to generate growth, and it hasn't. The reasons for that are many and varied.
[ QUOTE ]
Nor is "PVP" something that you just add like power windows on a car. CoX is not Lineage or Guild Wars. It has a separate culture and appeals to a different sort of player.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree. CoX is not Guild Wars. Guild Wars, a PvP focused game, had an increase of 57%. The question now is, what kind of player base does NCSoft want to attract? The overall subscription rate has flatlined. All the new additions to the PvE game have done nothing to sustain growth. Seems to me there is only one direction for the new owners to go if they want to see growth.