A Non-PVPer's Solution To PVP
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2008-01-25 14:21 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Thoughtful and thought provoking post.
My only criticism comes from your proposed implementation of PvE mini games in the zones. How do you have stronger, more agressive, and greater numbers of NPCs only effect the PvE flagged and not the PvP flagged? I'm not stating that it can't be done, but it seems to me that it would be a very difficult thing to do. And if a PvP flag rendered you somehow immune or invsible to NPCs, the practical thing to do would be to turn on the PvP flag and go when the zone was empty to get those valuable temps with even less effort than now.
Also relating to the minigames, my tank and scrapper can do either with ease, but my squishier characters (controller, defender, corrupter) have to be very careful and frequently die to arachnoids and shivans or have a hard time defeating the base turrets before a reset. Making them significantly harder might require that some ATs or builds need a team to get the temps (which might be a desireable goal). But it will certainly raise a loud cry from those who already find it difficult or who find that they can no longer succeed.
But overall, I loved your post and I appreciate the effort you put into concieving and writing your ideas.
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
Overlord of Dream Team and Nightmare Squad
Very nice post... some try to focus on bringing PvEr's to PvP, but I say just improve the PvP (it needs a lot right now) and they will come on their own.
Kudos on the hard work and excellent thought put forth here.
The only PvP I do is base raids and arena matches. If the effort was put forth to do everything (no half measures please) you have suggested I would be happy to enter the PvP zones as all the reasons I avoid them would have been eliminated.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
[ QUOTE ]
Flagging
[...] Consider if one first had to speak to the zone mission-contact and click "switch to PVP mode" in the menu; only then having the 30 second timer begin. This would have an immediate salutary effect on zone behavior since players can choose not to become a target and if someone wants to play with them they will have to entice them. Potential new players also have freedom to explore the zone, ask questions, and make observations without constantly looking over their shoulder or falling prey to outclassing bullies seeking easy "rep" points.
[...]
In practice: the PVP-mode would remain off when one entered a PVP zone.
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Red flag. Despite the other good points you made in your obviously thoroughly-thought-out post ... Standardised response commencing:
[u]STANDARD "No mixing PvP and PvE" RESPONSE[u]
There are many flavors of this sort of suggestion, and I'll try to answer each one in kind. (By doing it this way, I can save this waste-of-thought to my HD, and not have to put forth the effort to re-write it ad nauseum, which is how frequently these colossally stupid ideas get brought up!)
[u]#1: a seperate PvP/PvE server[u]
The primary reason not to do this is, quite simply: it's just a STUPID idea. (Get used to that, it's a common thread throughout this post.)
The reason that takes a bit longer to explain is: maintaining seperate servers like this, for a game that was not designed from day zero to have different server types? Means that you've essentially split the game into two (or more) versions of itself. Now, there's twice the opportunity for bugs, twice the work needed to develop new content, twice the testing needed for that new content ...
... and overall, the pace of new issues slows to a comparative crawl. NO, THANK YOU.
[u]#2: World PvP (typically with "flags") on all servers[u]
Once again, the biggest reason to say no: it's a cosmically STUPID idea.
The longer reason: this game started out as purely PvE. Thus, a large segment of the playerbase is exclusively, even rabidly, PvE. They do not want PvP activities occurring within their sight - wether they are involved or not.
And really, even those of us who do occasionally PvP, do not want to face repeated smack-talk from the less mature among the PvPers, in a misguided attempt to get us to turn our PvP flag on. Having a "/duel" command spammed at us every few seconds would not only be be not fun ... it would in fact be supremely irritating.
The third drawback here, is that the already-minority PvP population would be spread out very VERY thin. Right now, for any given server, they are all in one of five places: Bloody Bay, Sirens' Call, Warburg, Recluse's Victory, or the Arena. If they could get PvP anywhere ...? Including those same already-PvP locations, there are roughly FOURTY FIVE zones in all of COH and COV. You would spread the SAME small population out over NINE TIMES as much area; frequency of PvP would inevitably decrease, not increase, as a result.
Taken together, these mean that you would increase the irritation of non-PvPers, while simultaneously decreasing the enjoyment of pro-PvPers. That, sir or madame, is a lose-lose proposition, no matter how you look at it!
So I say, a second time: NO, THANK YOU.
[u]#3: PvP-OFF flags for PvP zones[u]
Once again: this is an unbelievably STUPID idea.
But once again, to rebutt at greater length: while I have spent most of this post trying to keep PvP out of my PvE ... I must, in all fairness, point out that the PvPers should not have their little corners of our world watered down in any way. There is absolutely nothing in any PvP zone that you MUST have (inane villain Accolade requirements included, much to my own dismay).
When you enter a PvP zone, you consent to be attacked by other players. The big sign out front, the obnoxiously-loud klaxon sound, the big-red-number countdown ... if these don't manage to clue you in, then to be perfectly honest, and perhaps rudely blunt: IMO you're too stupid to breathe ... so please, stop.
Leave the PvP out of our PvE, indeed - but don't try and take the PvP away from the PvPers, either; fair's fair, after all.
Thus, a third time: NO, THANK YOU.
[u]#4: /DUEL-ing in the streets[u]
Adhering to the pattern of prior points: this is a stupendously STUPID idea.
And per usual, to expand upon that objection, I will ask you to hearken back to days of yore ... all the way back to, um, eleven paragraphs above here, in Point #2, where I said that many PvE players - the oldest, most loyal, longest-term, and possibly most populaous faction of the Co* Playerbase - would absolutely despise even witnessing a PvP encounter?
Furthermore, you just know that some yutzes will make it their mission in life to sit at the Train, SG portal, Market, or at any other high-traffic "choke point" spamming /DUEL commands at everyone in sight. I've seen this happen in other games - chiefly WoW - and not only does it lead to increased lag on everyone walking by, the crowd itself is very inconvenient, when trying to get through and past them to X or Y NPC.
Thus, a fourth and final time: NO, THANK YOU.
While automated responses save you time on the standard "we shuld hav flaged PVP" tripe, spending three seconds copy-pasting instead of actually reading the posts is an insult to the OP and the vast effort he has clearly put into this.
I for one support the concept of making PvP actually fun and interesting to play instead of unbearably tedious and not fun at all.
lol Pax_
you could have just read the post
silly
@TheBro
solo pvp?
Cooler than every single owl EVER.
I don't see how your rebuttal has anything to do with how the OP described Flagging.
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While automated responses save you time on the standard "we shuld hav flaged PVP" tripe, spending three seconds copy-pasting instead of actually reading the posts is an insult to the OP and the vast effort he has clearly put into this.
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Did you miss that I singled out only the one element I objected to? Did you miss my comment on an "otherwise throughly thought-out" post?
The only thing I disagree with in his post is the ability to be in a PvP zone, and not be PvPable. There's a klaxon, there's a big sign outside, lots of things that tell you "only come in here if you are willing to accept the risk of being attacked by other players".
Hence, that is all I responded to. And in fact, I used my Standard Response even here because to do otherwise would have been hypocrisy. I don't pick and choose when to use that - if it fits at all, I use it. On anyone ... and if Positron had posted the original idea? He'd've gotten the same Standard Response.
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I don't see how your rebuttal has anything to do with how the OP described Flagging.
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Any ability to be PvP-immune in a PvP zone, I object to. How does my rebuttal not speak to that portion of his idea?
just go read the post and edit your replies while you still can
@TheBro
solo pvp?
Cooler than every single owl EVER.
Lol Pax_ Do you have like a whole folder on your computer filled with Word Files that are "Pre-made" Respones that you only need to Copy - Paste? And If you do are they interchangable? (Like can you combine different ones?) 
This is a great post.
Firstly, Bloody Bay and Sirens Call are -really- nice zones, visually. They are among my favourites for geography. And the RV gimmick is -great-.
That said, I think it's lack of numbers that puts a lot of newcomers off zone PvP.
If there are only a few people in a zone, it becomes very much scissors-paper-stone for anyone who doesn't know the score. Walk in to try things out and someone will see you, and if you're lucky leave you alone, unlucky kill you stone dead. And, unlike PvE, you don't have much time to react.
An Assassin's Strike, a Hold, a high level attack with a critical out of nowhere and suddenly everything's moving way faster than it ever does PvE.
When I've gone into Bloody Bay (admittedly just after the zone went live) or Sirens Call when they've been busy - it's a completely different story. Sirens Call became a pitched battle in the sea just by the rigs - blasters flying through the sky above, Masterminds trying to swamp the melee types with their henchmen, even newbies to PvP like me getting a chance to join in on whaling on some poor guy knocked away from the rest of his faction. In Bloody Bay, myself and a Brute went toe-to-toe standing on a mausoleum while the rest of the heroes nearby were trying to fend off CoT, Shivans that we'd aggroed as we chased villains across the map.
Where there is something big happening, it's fun - but when you go to an empty zone, wander around and then suddenly get killed because everything works differently - you might well leave and not come back.
Theoretically I like PVP-flagging. In practice it would be confusing, and too easy to abuse. If a hero is chasing you, why not just have a bunch of PVP-off flagged villains flank him - he'd spend time trying to target them and get distracted from the target who could turn around and get him.
More people in PvP is what's needed - but that requires some other kind of overhaul.
I'll break it down for you pax ....
[ QUOTE ]
#1: a seperate PvP/PvE server
The primary reason not to do this is, quite simply: it's just a STUPID idea. (Get used to that, it's a common thread throughout this post.)
The reason that takes a bit longer to explain is: maintaining seperate servers like this, for a game that was not designed from day zero to have different server types? Means that you've essentially split the game into two (or more) versions of itself. Now, there's twice the opportunity for bugs, twice the work needed to develop new content, twice the testing needed for that new content ...
... and overall, the pace of new issues slows to a comparative crawl. NO, THANK YOU.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is irrelevant to the OP's post. Nowhere in his post did he mention this.
[ QUOTE ]
#2: World PvP (typically with "flags") on all servers
Once again, the biggest reason to say no: it's a cosmically STUPID idea.
The longer reason: this game started out as purely PvE. Thus, a large segment of the playerbase is exclusively, even rabidly, PvE. They do not want PvP activities occurring within their sight - wether they are involved or not.
And really, even those of us who do occasionally PvP, do not want to face repeated smack-talk from the less mature among the PvPers, in a misguided attempt to get us to turn our PvP flag on. Having a "/duel" command spammed at us every few seconds would not only be be not fun ... it would in fact be supremely irritating.
The third drawback here, is that the already-minority PvP population would be spread out very VERY thin. Right now, for any given server, they are all in one of five places: Bloody Bay, Sirens' Call, Warburg, Recluse's Victory, or the Arena. If they could get PvP anywhere ...? Including those same already-PvP locations, there are roughly FOURTY FIVE zones in all of COH and COV. You would spread the SAME small population out over NINE TIMES as much area; frequency of PvP would inevitably decrease, not increase, as a result.
Taken together, these mean that you would increase the irritation of non-PvPers, while simultaneously decreasing the enjoyment of pro-PvPers. That, sir or madame, is a lose-lose proposition, no matter how you look at it!
So I say, a second time: NO, THANK YOU.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, Irrelevant to the OP's post as he did not mention World PvP. Only the ability to flag between a PvP build and a PvE build. While in PvE it allows the player to learn a little about PvP without being ganked. There are several options here, one being a toggle, another being a fixed time limit until he is attackable to allow a learning curve (maybe a week)
[ QUOTE ]
#3: PvP-OFF flags for PvP zones
Once again: this is an unbelievably STUPID idea.
But once again, to rebutt at greater length: while I have spent most of this post trying to keep PvP out of my PvE ... I must, in all fairness, point out that the PvPers should not have their little corners of our world watered down in any way. There is absolutely nothing in any PvP zone that you MUST have (inane villain Accolade requirements included, much to my own dismay).
When you enter a PvP zone, you consent to be attacked by other players. The big sign out front, the obnoxiously-loud klaxon sound, the big-red-number countdown ... if these don't manage to clue you in, then to be perfectly honest, and perhaps rudely blunt: IMO you're too stupid to breathe ... so please, stop.
Leave the PvP out of our PvE, indeed - but don't try and take the PvP away from the PvPers, either; fair's fair, after all.
Thus, a third time: NO, THANK YOU.
[/ QUOTE ]
This will be needed, as stated above, if the developers want pvp to increase. Whether it's a fixed limit, or a toggle, that's not up to me. The dev's can figure that one out.
[ QUOTE ]
#4: /DUEL-ing in the streets
Adhering to the pattern of prior points: this is a stupendously STUPID idea.
And per usual, to expand upon that objection, I will ask you to hearken back to days of yore ... all the way back to, um, eleven paragraphs above here, in Point #2, where I said that many PvE players - the oldest, most loyal, longest-term, and possibly most populaous faction of the Co* Playerbase - would absolutely despise even witnessing a PvP encounter?
Furthermore, you just know that some yutzes will make it their mission in life to sit at the Train, SG portal, Market, or at any other high-traffic "choke point" spamming /DUEL commands at everyone in sight. I've seen this happen in other games - chiefly WoW - and not only does it lead to increased lag on everyone walking by, the crowd itself is very inconvenient, when trying to get through and past them to X or Y NPC.
Thus, a fourth and final time: NO, THANK YOU.
[/ QUOTE ]
Again, what are you talking about? This has nothing to do with the OP's post.
If you are going to critize the OP's idea, give him the decency and at least read it. Don't give a cookie cutter response that makes absolutly no sense. The only things remotly coming close to being on target for a rebuttal is #3, and that, for what the OP is suggesting, Isn't a good reason to not have flagging.
And besides,
Ex Libris:
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You bring up some great points in this post, I for one am a huge supporter of the cross over builds!
Ex
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He liked that idea ...... If you actually read it, flagging = crossover builds.
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Lol Pax_ Do you have like a whole folder on your computer filled with Word Files that are "Pre-made" Respones that you only need to Copy - Paste? And If you do are they interchangable? (Like can you combine different ones?)
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Well, they aren't interchangable, they're in Notepad instead of Word, and I only have a few so far, but ... yes, I have a folder to keep them in.
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I'll break it down for you pax ....
[/ QUOTE ]
That's funny., You accuse me of not reading a post ... and then, to defend that accusation, you fail to read a post. You know, the very FIRST sentence after the big, bold, yellow "standard response" title:
"There are many flavors of this sort of suggestion, and I'll try to answer each one in kind."
It's a pre-packaged "one size fits most" response, that covers all four of the most-popular varietyesof PvP-and-PvE-mixed suggestions. Part (3) is the one that (obviously) addresses the bit I was responding to, because that part of hte OPs idea directly suggests a way to opt out of PvP despite being in a PvP zone.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'll break it down for you pax ....
[/ QUOTE ]
That's funny., You accuse me of not reading a post ... and then, to defend that accusation, you fail to read a post. You know, the very FIRST sentence after the big, bold, yellow "standard response" title:
"There are many flavors of this sort of suggestion, and I'll try to answer each one in kind."
It's a pre-packaged "one size fits most" response, that covers all four of the most-popular varietyesof PvP-and-PvE-mixed suggestions. Part (3) is the one that (obviously) addresses the bit I was responding to, because that part of hte OPs idea directly suggests a way to opt out of PvP despite being in a PvP zone.
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/facepalm
just.go.read.the.post.please.
@TheBro
solo pvp?
Cooler than every single owl EVER.
[ QUOTE ]
That's funny., You accuse me of not reading a post ... and then, to defend that accusation, you fail to read a post. You know, the very FIRST sentence after the big, bold, yellow "standard response" title:
"There are many flavors of this sort of suggestion, and I'll try to answer each one in kind."
It's a pre-packaged "one size fits most" response, that covers all four of the most-popular varietyesof PvP-and-PvE-mixed suggestions. Part (3) is the one that (obviously) addresses the bit I was responding to, because that part of hte OPs idea directly suggests a way to opt out of PvP despite being in a PvP zone.
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Fess up; you made an assumption about the post before you even did more than glance at it. It's painfully obvious to anyone and everyone who read both the OP and your response. And you know what they say about assumptions ... your reactions so far are not disproving it. So own it, you didn't read it, and didn't bother to check how appropriate your canned response was. Just because you've been around here long enough to have seen most everything doesn't mean that someone still won't occasionally surprise you.
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I'll break it down for you pax ....
[/ QUOTE ]
That's funny., You accuse me of not reading a post ... and then, to defend that accusation, you fail to read a post. You know, the very FIRST sentence after the big, bold, yellow "standard response" title:
"There are many flavors of this sort of suggestion, and I'll try to answer each one in kind."
It's a pre-packaged "one size fits most" response, that covers all four of the most-popular varietyesof PvP-and-PvE-mixed suggestions. Part (3) is the one that (obviously) addresses the bit I was responding to, because that part of hte OPs idea directly suggests a way to opt out of PvP despite being in a PvP zone.
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That explains alot. Too bad your premade responses had nothing to do with his post.
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I'll break it down for you pax ....
[/ QUOTE ]
That's funny., You accuse me of not reading a post ... and then, to defend that accusation, you fail to read a post. You know, the very FIRST sentence after the big, bold, yellow "standard response" title:
"There are many flavors of this sort of suggestion, and I'll try to answer each one in kind."
It's a pre-packaged "one size fits most" response, that covers all four of the most-popular varietyesof PvP-and-PvE-mixed suggestions. Part (3) is the one that (obviously) addresses the bit I was responding to, because that part of hte OPs idea directly suggests a way to opt out of PvP despite being in a PvP zone.
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That explains alot. Too bad your stupidity won out
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fixd for the truth
@TheBro
solo pvp?
Cooler than every single owl EVER.
[ QUOTE ]
Fess up; you made an assumption about the post before you even did more than glance at it.
[/ QUOTE ]
Nope. I read a well thought-out post, contianing a lot of creative ideas ... one of which is one I think should never, under any circumstances, happen: being PvP-immune in a PvP zone. In response to that - as I do any time the idea is brought up, no matter by who - I popped out that standard response.
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Just because you've been around here long enough to have seen most everything doesn't mean that someone still won't occasionally surprise you.
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... was that ... a post-count or registration-date based attack? O_O For shame!
*raises eyebrows*
Wow... that pretty much covers all the bases. I hereby nominate Human Being as Official Forum Voice of Reason.
All of this sounds very interesting, with the exception of having to have a team to get Shivans. I like being able to go get them by myself..... from what I hear, its already pretty much of a given that you need a team to get nukes due to Stalkers camping the site, but Shivans... I like those accessable.
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If the Arachnos Mace was made available on both sides as well, I'd expect some roleplayers to be willing to "kill" for such a prop. These temp powers are all useful, potentially fun, and could see repeat purchasing, but are not game breaking if someone were to "cheat" and take falls for merit-alikes.
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I might actually be willing to fight someone for access to that mace. 
I want the one with the poison-ray...
[p.s. Some persons participating in this thread might want to make sure their PM-boxes are not full - its hard to reply to PMs if the recipient cannot accept any more PMs *clears throat* ]
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Lol Pax_ Do you have like a whole folder on your computer filled with Word Files that are "Pre-made" Respones that you only need to Copy - Paste? And If you do are they interchangable? (Like can you combine different ones?)
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He's not called Debatocles for nothing.
Unfortunately I can't really see his style holding up well compared to Socrates, and other great minds of the time, but c'est la vie. I think that "enema arrow" thing may come into play here, only except the obvious, what we get is a copious outflow not of waste-matter, but of words.
Ick, what a metaphor. Sorry.
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Maybe a challenge could not be refused but would start a count down timer. So if you were being griefed you'd have time to leave and if you wanted to PvP you'd accept. So of goes against their 'free-for-all-dive-right-in-and-start-fighting' philosophy they have in the PvP zones. But OTOH that's not exactly meeting with universal love either.....
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It would be like a Team invitation with more info. You could accept or decline it. Oh, and though I forgot to mention it in the post, there should be an easily accessible (not buried in the options menu) radio button for "decline all Challenges".
Once challenge was accepted with its settings, the only way out of the challenge would be to complete the requirements (X defeats or what have you), switch back to PVE mode at the base contact, or leave the zone. Otherwise, people could drop out of the challenge if it started going against them and "skipping" or "quitting" would replace "popping". Your options if you don't want to continue to the end are to run and get to the mission-contact/zone door, or be defeated and do the same.
Being in a Challenge would prevent someone from getting the Spoon or a WB Tech and vice versa. Otherwise someone could enter PVP mode for the easier PVE zone game, then join with a friend in a Challenge and be immune to PVP attackers.
I figure one way to make things harder for the PVE mode characters would be to drop their level down X amount of levels when flagged as such. Auto-exempting so far could cause a rather nasty debuff against the NPC mobs.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
I think I've skimmed enough of it to agree with you (like 40% tl;dr) on most of the points/suggestions. While I really think it should have gone in Suggestions, it covers quite a bit of PvP and engagement and all that jazz, so I'll let it slide this time.
This time.
I hope to jeebus someone doesn't quote you just to give a one sentence reply or some trash...
Good work!