A Non-PVPer's Solution To PVP
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2008-01-25 14:21 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Great post, OP. I agree with the vast majority of what you said, barring the same concerns Xury had with the proposed flagging system.
We need more posts like this, and we need the devs to read and respond to them.
"His Imperial Majesty's Minister of Restraints and Leather" -LHF
Two naughty acronym teams / Ascension / Convenient / Artic and the Chillz / Fap / Other teams I can't remember (sorry.. mind is goin')
Without a doubt, this is not only what I think the PvP mechanics in this game should be, it is in fact EXACTLY what I thought they WOULD be when PvP was originally implement for Co*, with the possible exception of having a PvP build out to switch to, which is an excellent idea.
Really, when I found out that no mechanics were added in any way to prevent griefing in PvP, I knew it was doomed to be a 'red-headed-stepchild' of play-styles in this game. After all the things the developers of this game got so right, they really dropped the ball on PvP in terms of implementation.
Honestly, if the basic layout of the PvP mechanics described here were implemented, then there would be no need to have the flags in the PvP zones only. You could have the flag anywhere, in any zone, open up all zones to both sides and have a huge increase in players because now you could have true comic-based battles, complete with the monologuing before the battle (Challenge) begins.
This system could even allow for the view point of having true, free for all PvP zones still in the game, be they the ones that exist now or others, because you could learn to PvP before entering the true 'free-for-all' zones and be prepared.
If this were implemented, I would PvP, thus spending even more time playing this game and I know others that have left who would probably return.
To conclude, I truly thought that a system like this would be what this game implemented from the start of PvP.
"The side that is unhappy is not the side that the game was intended to make happy, or promised to make happy, or focused on making happy. The side that is unhappy is the side that is unhappy. That's all." - Arcanaville
"Surprised your guys' arteries haven't clogged with all that hatred yet." - Xzero45
I think Human_Being's assessment of PvP is excellent. His solutions, not so much.
My concern is the sheer amount of work it would take to implement those ideas. As HB says, it's a gamble that might not pay off. I know I speak for a lot of people when I say we don't want the broken-at-concept PvP detracting from our PvE experience, or keeping content from being added to the game.
The other main issue I have with HB's solutions is that they are complicated not just from the developers' standpoint, but also from the players' standpoint. That's a lot of work to switch from a PvE build to a PvP build. I'm probably one of the few people who don't particularly care to respec my characters. I especially hate to do it when they are higher level. My level 50 Blaster and level 44 Tanker would benefit from a minor respec so I can add IOs to their build, but it's such a daunting task that I won't do it. So I'm certainly not going to it for PvP.
I think the solution needs to be simpler, as simpler is always better. And that solution has been around for years: every player is the same.
The single most glaring issue with CoH's PvP is the rock-paper-scissors balance. As we've seen, that simply doesn't work. Contests are never fair, ever.
So here's the K.I.S.S. solution: when you enter a PvP zone, you are exactly equal to everyone else. Everyone gets 100 Endurance. Everyone has 200 Hit Points. Everyone's Tier 1 attacks do X amount of damage and take Y time to recharge. Everyone's Tier 2 attacks do 2X damage and take 2Y time to recharge.
Yes, that means that a Tanker's Fire Sword does the same damage as a Defender's Blazing Arrow as a Mastermind's Dark Blast as a Stalker's Gambler's Cut and so on. No respec necessary, no complicated schemes to allow this or disallow that, no adding stores or storage or whatever to PvP zones. Just a straight out, across the board levelling of the playing field.
This sort of thing has come up before, and I actually saved a screenshot from 3 years ago. (Although the sig seen there is from post-ED, the post is 9 months before CoV's release.)
As to the PvP flagging idea, taken at face value it seems reasonable, although I do agree that going to a PvP zone should mean that you're going to engage in PvP. Flagging is, in essence, acknowledging that the game's PvP is broken, and it's really a band aid rather than a true solution. With a "Monster Code" in effect for everyone, that should remove a lot of the odiousness from the situation, meaning that a PvP flag wouldn't be as necessary.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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I think Human_Being's assessment of PvP is excellent. His solutions, not so much.
My concern is the sheer amount of work it would take to implement those ideas. As HB says, it's a gamble that might not pay off. I know I speak for a lot of people when I say we don't want the broken-at-concept PvP detracting from our PvE experience, or keeping content from being added to the game.
The other main issue I have with HB's solutions is that they are complicated not just from the developers' standpoint, but also from the players' standpoint. That's a lot of work to switch from a PvE build to a PvP build. I'm probably one of the few people who don't particularly care to respec my characters. I especially hate to do it when they are higher level. My level 50 Blaster and level 44 Tanker would benefit from a minor respec so I can add IOs to their build, but it's such a daunting task that I won't do it. So I'm certainly not going to it for PvP.
I think the solution needs to be simpler, as simpler is always better. And that solution has been around for years: every player is the same.
The single most glaring issue with CoH's PvP is the rock-paper-scissors balance. As we've seen, that simply doesn't work. Contests are never fair, ever.
So here's the K.I.S.S. solution: when you enter a PvP zone, you are exactly equal to everyone else. Everyone gets 100 Endurance. Everyone has 200 Hit Points. Everyone's Tier 1 attacks do X amount of damage and take Y time to recharge. Everyone's Tier 2 attacks do 2X damage and take 2Y time to recharge.
Yes, that means that a Tanker's Fire Sword does the same damage as a Defender's Blazing Arrow as a Mastermind's Dark Blast as a Stalker's Gambler's Cut and so on. No respec necessary, no complicated schemes to allow this or disallow that, no adding stores or storage or whatever to PvP zones. Just a straight out, across the board levelling of the playing field.
This sort of thing has come up before, and I actually saved a screenshot from 3 years ago. (Although the sig seen there is from post-ED, the post is 9 months before CoV's release.)
As to the PvP flagging idea, taken at face value it seems reasonable, although I do agree that going to a PvP zone should mean that you're going to engage in PvP. Flagging is, in essence, acknowledging that the game's PvP is broken, and it's really a band aid rather than a true solution. With a "Monster Code" in effect for everyone, that should remove a lot of the odiousness from the situation, meaning that a PvP flag wouldn't be as necessary.
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Why stop there? Why not remove all ATs, sets, powers and enhancements from the game entirely? Give everyone 100 HP and brawl and everyone is balanced. No more PvP imbalances, no more farming, no more empath whining, everyone would be equal. Of course it would be mind numbingly boring and everyone would quit, but that's a small price to pay for a perfectly balanced game.
You might say that everyone gets the same gun in an FPS but the reason that is fun is the skill needed to point and click at people. Today's MMOs still require very little player skill so all the fun comes out of customising your character to beat how everyone else built theirs. The main problem with PvP in this game is that it works completely different to PvE. In PvP you want single target burst damage, but in PvE you want high AoE damage over time. A separate build would help a lot, but you would still get FOTMs until they rebalanced the PvP effects of powers so the AoE sets could compete with single target heavy hitters.
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This mental segregation is foolish.
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No, it's not. And I'd thank you not to so offhandedly dismiss my opinion with insults. It's not foolish. In fact, it's one of the major philosophies in this game when it comes to PvP. PvEers who don't like PvP at all should not ever even have to see it. They should be able to go about their business and not have to confront more than the most basic indications that it even exists in this game.
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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This mental segregation is foolish.
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No, it's not. And I'd thank you not to so offhandedly dismiss my opinion with insults. It's not foolish. In fact, it's one of the major philosophies in this game when it comes to PvP. PvEers who don't like PvP at all should not ever even have to see it. They should be able to go about their business and not have to confront more than the most basic indications that it even exists in this game.
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I think the point is, that for the health of PvP in the game, and possibly even to insure it's continued existence, that it is foolish to reject out of hand that PvP and PvE must be so strictly seggregated.
The Devs want to improve PvP and it has to be done in a way that actually retains the people that play it. Saying that there must be this line drawn between PvP and PvE is to exclude what has been presented as a very viable solution to improving the overall PvP performance in the game.
The fact that some people have an aversion to seeing any kind of opt-out for PvP in PvP zones, is really of little consequence when trying to arrive at real answers for the fact that PvP as it exists now is not working.
I'd say that the onus is on those who want to defend PvP zones as a free-fire experience to explain why continuing to use a mechanic that is failing is better than implementing something else. If someone could make a compelling case for how a flagging system would make PvP less appealing to the whole of the COX population, I'd be glad to hear it. But seeing as how that system is already in place, and not doing very well, it's hard to imagine what someone would have to construct to make a viable argument out of it.
The foolish part is thinking that any one part of the PvP experience is inviolable, if that is the case, then you might as well scrap PvP in the game all together, because it's impossible to imagine any Developer spending resources on a part of the game that is hemmoraging subscribers for too long before deciding that time would be better spent elsewhere, solutions that go beyond what we already have or merely fixing bugs with what we already have are necessary at this point.
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This mental segregation is foolish.
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No, it's not. And I'd thank you not to so offhandedly dismiss my opinion with insults. It's not foolish. In fact, it's one of the major philosophies in this game when it comes to PvP. PvEers who don't like PvP at all should not ever even have to see it. They should be able to go about their business and not have to confront more than the most basic indications that it even exists in this game.
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Unfortunately, it's exactly these type of people that are a large part of the problem.
I read most of the OP. I agree that PvP does have a steep learning curve and etc but he seems to lean increasing PvE in pvp zones and throwing PvP a few bones. In my opinion, there should be little, if any, pve in PvP zones. A hapless PvEr wanders into WB to get a nuke and gets killed by a stalker/blaster. The PvEr now is hostile toward PvP and won't give it a chance.
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This mental segregation is foolish.
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No, it's not. And I'd thank you not to so offhandedly dismiss my opinion with insults. It's not foolish. In fact, it's one of the major philosophies in this game when it comes to PvP. PvEers who don't like PvP at all should not ever even have to see it. They should be able to go about their business and not have to confront more than the most basic indications that it even exists in this game.
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I think the point is, that for the health of PvP in the game, and possibly even to insure it's continued existence, that it is foolish to reject out of hand that PvP and PvE must be so strictly seggregated.
The Devs want to improve PvP and it has to be done in a way that actually retains the people that play it.
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That is a pipe dream. In any PvP game half the people lose. That makes half your players unhappy. These people eventually leave because losing is not fun . I have never seen a single game company make losing fun except for two odd games . Eventually as people leave games PvP zones become empty and people who were winning start losing and they become unhappy. This is why if you go into a PvP zone and someone sees you have a certain build they go and change characters 30 seconds later and get a build where the game mechanics give them a better chance of winning. If Cryptic were to make any radical change to PvP all they do is shuffle around who is winning and who is losing. So unless Cryptic starts coding banana bombs then there is no reason to expect PvP to get out of the eternal cycle of misery which takes place in every PvP game and drives people who lose way from PvP . I am sure someone will happily come into the thread and lie about how PvP is not about winning but if you go read the Pvp forums in various online games PvPers obsess over winning and being a winner. Gracious losers are very few and far between.
While you may have put alot of thought into your post you have missed one fundemental issue with PvP which is the root of almost all of the problem. That thing you've missed is intergral to the first thing you said - a game can be built on PvE or PvP, not both as they operate on totally different rules.
The source of problems in CoX PvP is the ATs, they have clear weaknesses and strengths. Because of this people will inenvitably come up against another player who is able to exploit all of your weaknesses but isn't weak against all of your strengths. The simplest annalogy is the super speed scrapper vs a flying blaster. The blaster can hit at range while staying in the air but the scrapper can't get into the air to fight back. Thus is ceases to be PvP and becomes a turkey shoot for the blaster with the scrapper being nothing more than a victim.
Good PvP requires both players to have an equal or near equal chance of success if they have the same amount of skill as each other. In multiplayer FPS games, which are the most popular PvP on the internet, all players have the same strengths and weaknesses and there is never a no-win situation.
Thus the solution to PvP is to totally remove archetypes and give every player access to powers which let players create characters with no severe weaknesses.But you know what? It's never going to happen because it means developing two radically different games on a budget intended for just one.
CoX archetypes are designed to need each other to encourage teaming, that design choice carries over to PvP. Team based PvP is very very fun however without a well rounded team it loses alot of appeal. Since casual PvP is typically solo folks get an unpleasent and unbalanced perspective of PvP and thus lose interest, since they lose interest they don't meet other PvPers much who like to team and thus never get to enjoy CoX PvP as it was intended.
There is no quick fix to make PvP appealing, the basic design of the game does not support it thus the base design of the game would need to be changed.
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I read most of the OP. I agree that PvP does have a steep learning curve and etc but he seems to lean increasing PvE in pvp zones and throwing PvP a few bones. In my opinion, there should be little, if any, pve in PvP zones. A hapless PvEr wanders into WB to get a nuke and gets killed by a stalker/blaster. The PvEr now is hostile toward PvP and won't give it a chance.
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Maybe there's a lesson to be learned there.
This is an idea that is simultaneously off-the-cuff and off-the-top-of-my-head.
What if PVP were gated by something with more meaning than level.
I'm thinking like a 3 tiered zone system that lets PVE-ers try PVP in increasingly difficult zones yet doesn't overwhelm them immediately.
The gating system would be built based on non-Arena PVP kills for that account.
Zone 1: 25% effacy. Powers have 25% effacy. Some monkeying around with that percentage could be done on a AT by AT basis (I'm thinking specifically of glass cannon types like stalkers here), but the idea is designed to address a common complaint, that of "it was over so fast I didn't know what happened". It gives them a chance to slow things down and get an idea of what's what. MOST PVE related content would be in this layer of zones.
After that, naturallly, are 66% and 100% zones with little and no PVE content.
YES, it is possible for it to be exploited. If absolute un-exploitability is the requirement for making anything, Co* wouldn't have been made.
YES, a person could get help in making the number of PVP kills needed to get to the last tier of PVP zones. If they want to do that, I don't really care.
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I think Human_Being's assessment of PvP is excellent. His solutions, not so much.
My concern is the sheer amount of work it would take to implement those ideas. As HB says, it's a gamble that might not pay off. I know I speak for a lot of people when I say we don't want the broken-at-concept PvP detracting from our PvE experience, or keeping content from being added to the game.
The other main issue I have with HB's solutions is that they are complicated not just from the developers' standpoint, but also from the players' standpoint. That's a lot of work to switch from a PvE build to a PvP build. I'm probably one of the few people who don't particularly care to respec my characters. I especially hate to do it when they are higher level. My level 50 Blaster and level 44 Tanker would benefit from a minor respec so I can add IOs to their build, but it's such a daunting task that I won't do it. So I'm certainly not going to it for PvP.
I think the solution needs to be simpler, as simpler is always better. And that solution has been around for years: every player is the same.
The single most glaring issue with CoH's PvP is the rock-paper-scissors balance. As we've seen, that simply doesn't work. Contests are never fair, ever.
So here's the K.I.S.S. solution: when you enter a PvP zone, you are exactly equal to everyone else. Everyone gets 100 Endurance. Everyone has 200 Hit Points. Everyone's Tier 1 attacks do X amount of damage and take Y time to recharge. Everyone's Tier 2 attacks do 2X damage and take 2Y time to recharge.
Yes, that means that a Tanker's Fire Sword does the same damage as a Defender's Blazing Arrow as a Mastermind's Dark Blast as a Stalker's Gambler's Cut and so on. No respec necessary, no complicated schemes to allow this or disallow that, no adding stores or storage or whatever to PvP zones. Just a straight out, across the board levelling of the playing field.
This sort of thing has come up before, and I actually saved a screenshot from 3 years ago. (Although the sig seen there is from post-ED, the post is 9 months before CoV's release.)
As to the PvP flagging idea, taken at face value it seems reasonable, although I do agree that going to a PvP zone should mean that you're going to engage in PvP. Flagging is, in essence, acknowledging that the game's PvP is broken, and it's really a band aid rather than a true solution. With a "Monster Code" in effect for everyone, that should remove a lot of the odiousness from the situation, meaning that a PvP flag wouldn't be as necessary.
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Why stop there? Why not remove all ATs, sets, powers and enhancements from the game entirely? Give everyone 100 HP and brawl and everyone is balanced. No more PvP imbalances, no more farming, no more empath whining, everyone would be equal. Of course it would be mind numbingly boring and everyone would quit, but that's a small price to pay for a perfectly balanced game.
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You don't think it's mind-numbingly boring now? Weird. Right now it's "roll FOTM or lose." At least with a level playing field everyone has an equal chance without having to look up the current most effective build then roll one and PL it until it's ready for PvP.
The Alt Alphabet ~ OPC: Other People's Characters ~ Terrific Screenshots of Cool ~ Superhero Fiction
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My concern is the sheer amount of work it would take to implement those ideas. As HB says, it's a gamble that might not pay off. I know I speak for a lot of people when I say we don't want the broken-at-concept PvP detracting from our PvE experience, or keeping content from being added to the game.
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Lets face it, the PvP system is bad, and it needs a rehaul. The dev's are going to have to get down and dirty with it, and it's going to take time. Yeah adding anything is a gamble, but it can be added over time to see how the changes would take effect. As a PvPer, I don't see any issues with any of the suggestions HB made, and I don't think it would effect any of the people already heavy into PvP. I even hear people who already PvP alot complain about things that HB brought up.
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The other main issue I have with HB's solutions is that they are complicated not just from the developers' standpoint, but also from the players' standpoint. That's a lot of work to switch from a PvE build to a PvP build.
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I think the solution needs to be simpler, as simpler is always better. And that solution has been around for years: every player is the same.
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Yes this implementation would be time consuming for the developers to make, and yes it would require maybe a half hour of the players time to do a respec. If that half hour of time is the only thing that would be stopping a player from doing pvp, then this new system would work great. Simpler is most definetly not better. If every player were the same, there would be powers that give -acc -dmg or other special damage powers, but still do the same amount of damage. And if you take all those special powers away, and just do straight damage, well that would be boring, and I wouldn't PvP anymore. I would probably getted bored of the game, and go find another MMO that had a decent style PvP system with ease of soloing and doing missions like Co*. So in the case of PvP, simpler wouldn't help anything.
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I read most of the OP. I agree that PvP does have a steep learning curve and etc but he seems to lean increasing PvE in pvp zones and throwing PvP a few bones. In my opinion, there should be little, if any, pve in PvP zones. A hapless PvEr wanders into WB to get a nuke and gets killed by a stalker/blaster. The PvEr now is hostile toward PvP and won't give it a chance.
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His post addresses this issue
Edit:
It's right here:
HB:
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However, the value in the development goes up if switching between the build-types is tied directly to the player's PVP flag.
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Consider if one first had to speak to the zone mission-contact and click "switch to PVP mode" in the menu; only then having the 30 second timer begin. This would have an immediate salutary effect on zone behavior since players can choose not to become a target and if someone wants to play with them they will have to entice them. Potential new players also have freedom to explore the zone, ask questions, and make observations without constantly looking over their shoulder or falling prey to outclassing bullies seeking easy "rep" points.
<...>
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It goes on to explain more, but i'm not going to quote the whole thing 
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This mental segregation is foolish.
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No, it's not. And I'd thank you not to so offhandedly dismiss my opinion with insults. It's not foolish. In fact, it's one of the major philosophies in this game when it comes to PvP. PvEers who don't like PvP at all should not ever even have to see it. They should be able to go about their business and not have to confront more than the most basic indications that it even exists in this game.
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Unfortunately, it's exactly these type of people that are a large part of the problem.
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And? If someone doesn't want to PvP, that's their choice. Get over it. Let them do what they want and you do what you want. I have no interest in PvP. I don't need incentives dangled in front of me, it won't make any difference. I don't need it waved in front of my face, that will only annoy me. And I -DEFINITELY- don't need the hostility in /broadcast that is almost always present where PvP is present.
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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The blaster can hit at range while staying in the air but the scrapper can't get into the air to fight back. Thus is ceases to be PvP and becomes a turkey shoot for the blaster with the scrapper being nothing more than a victim
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This is where the flagging can come into effect. The scrapper would be able to flag between a PvE and a PvP build in HB's example. Where he states
HB:
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Flagging
<...>
the system would be explained and an option given to create a PVP power-build. Accepting this option, a respec would begin to create a separately standing power build. Powers could be repicked/slotted and copies of all currently owned enhancements would be available to be emplaced.
<...>
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Thus the solution to PvP is to totally remove archetypes and give every player access to powers which let players create characters with no severe weaknesses.
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I think what you mean is to take all the powers and put them into one pool? But no, that won't happen because it's a dumb idea. It removes everything that Co* stands for. It removes all RP value, and it's very very exploitable.
btw, an idea to tack on to this
I think that a PvP respec recipe should be buyable via "merit-alikes"
make cost a lot or whatever but it usually takes a few drafts of a build for newcomers to find the perfect fit
@TheBro
solo pvp?
Cooler than every single owl EVER.
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This mental segregation is foolish.
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No, it's not. And I'd thank you not to so offhandedly dismiss my opinion with insults. It's not foolish. In fact, it's one of the major philosophies in this game when it comes to PvP. PvEers who don't like PvP at all should not ever even have to see it. They should be able to go about their business and not have to confront more than the most basic indications that it even exists in this game.
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Unfortunately, it's exactly these type of people that are a large part of the problem.
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And? If someone doesn't want to PvP, that's their choice. Get over it. Let them do what they want and you do what you want. I have no interest in PvP. I don't need incentives dangled in front of me, it won't make any difference. I don't need it waved in front of my face, that will only annoy me. And I -DEFINITELY- don't need the hostility in /broadcast that is almost always present where PvP is present.
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If you don't want to PvP, then don't. But the OPs solution fixes many of the current problems, will keep a heavy portion of people who already PvP, and will attract others who are curious about PvP, the zones, and RP. So regardless if they are going to PvP in the zones or PvE or whatever, there will actually be more people in the zones.
Taking all powers and making them available to all players would make the game nearly impossible to be balanced. As stated to do this you'd need to totally rewrite a fundamental part of the game and it's not going to happen. He addressed it, but completely misses the point that it's never, ever, ever going to happen so all of the suggestions made are a moot point because they're hooked together onto this one feature being the solution to the problem.
I'm all for creative feedback to the devs, however it's not creative when it's unrealistic.
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Taking all powers and making them available to all players would make the game nearly impossible to be balanced. As stated to do this you'd need to totally rewrite a fundamental part of the game and it's not going to happen. He addressed it, but completely misses the point that it's never, ever, ever going to happen so all of the suggestions made are a moot point because they're hooked together onto this one feature being the solution to the problem.
I'm all for creative feedback to the devs, however it's not creative when it's unrealistic.
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I missed where the OP supported this. If he did, I would have disagreed with it. I skimmed through it again, and still don't see it.
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If you don't want to PvP, then don't. But the OPs solution fixes many of the current problems, will keep a heavy portion of people who already PvP, and will attract others who are curious about PvP, the zones, and RP. So regardless if they are going to PvP in the zones or PvE or whatever, there will actually be more people in the zones.
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And it will drive people who are disgusted with PvP in general away from the game. If people aren't PvPing in PvP zones, it's not because they don't see enough of it out on the streets. PvP in PvE zones will accomplish absolutely nothing other than irritating the hardcore non-PvPers.
Virtue Server
Avatar art by Daggerpoint
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I think Human_Being's assessment of PvP is excellent. His solutions, not so much.
My concern is the sheer amount of work it would take to implement those ideas. As HB says, it's a gamble that might not pay off. I know I speak for a lot of people when I say we don't want the broken-at-concept PvP detracting from our PvE experience, or keeping content from being added to the game.
The other main issue I have with HB's solutions is that they are complicated not just from the developers' standpoint, but also from the players' standpoint. That's a lot of work to switch from a PvE build to a PvP build. I'm probably one of the few people who don't particularly care to respec my characters. I especially hate to do it when they are higher level. My level 50 Blaster and level 44 Tanker would benefit from a minor respec so I can add IOs to their build, but it's such a daunting task that I won't do it. So I'm certainly not going to it for PvP.
I think the solution needs to be simpler, as simpler is always better. And that solution has been around for years: every player is the same.
The single most glaring issue with CoH's PvP is the rock-paper-scissors balance. As we've seen, that simply doesn't work. Contests are never fair, ever.
So here's the K.I.S.S. solution: when you enter a PvP zone, you are exactly equal to everyone else. Everyone gets 100 Endurance. Everyone has 200 Hit Points. Everyone's Tier 1 attacks do X amount of damage and take Y time to recharge. Everyone's Tier 2 attacks do 2X damage and take 2Y time to recharge.
Yes, that means that a Tanker's Fire Sword does the same damage as a Defender's Blazing Arrow as a Mastermind's Dark Blast as a Stalker's Gambler's Cut and so on. No respec necessary, no complicated schemes to allow this or disallow that, no adding stores or storage or whatever to PvP zones. Just a straight out, across the board levelling of the playing field.
This sort of thing has come up before, and I actually saved a screenshot from 3 years ago. (Although the sig seen there is from post-ED, the post is 9 months before CoV's release.)
As to the PvP flagging idea, taken at face value it seems reasonable, although I do agree that going to a PvP zone should mean that you're going to engage in PvP. Flagging is, in essence, acknowledging that the game's PvP is broken, and it's really a band aid rather than a true solution. With a "Monster Code" in effect for everyone, that should remove a lot of the odiousness from the situation, meaning that a PvP flag wouldn't be as necessary.
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Why stop there? Why not remove all ATs, sets, powers and enhancements from the game entirely? Give everyone 100 HP and brawl and everyone is balanced. No more PvP imbalances, no more farming, no more empath whining, everyone would be equal. Of course it would be mind numbingly boring and everyone would quit, but that's a small price to pay for a perfectly balanced game.
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You don't think it's mind-numbingly boring now? Weird. Right now it's "roll FOTM or lose." At least with a level playing field everyone has an equal chance without having to look up the current most effective build then roll one and PL it until it's ready for PvP.
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I've PvPed with my Ice/Ice dominator almost exclusively for over a year now and that's hardly FOTM. I managed to beat a lot of FOTMs such as fire/EM blasters, ice/EM tanks and ice/cold corruptors before mind/fire permadoms became popular. I have fun thinking of original builds that can beat the builds people copied off the PvP forums. The current system isn't perfect (and would need an overhaul of the values of a lot of powers versus players to be anywhere close) but i prefer it to your suggestion of making it nothing more than pray for high tohit roll.
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There was a few things I wanted to address though, the first was on Flagging.
I'm a believer that there SHOULD be seperate PvP and PvE builds. But I'm with Pax, and strongly disagree that there should be a 'PvP off' mode in pvp zones.
See, here's the thing... If it does happen, there needs to be an option where the two could NEVER interact, which IMO is counter-productive to everything you've said.
This was because of something that was brought to my attention on my own server. During an event in Recluse's victory, there was a lot of heroes in the zone that were going AV hunting. Also in the zone were about 5 or 6 villains. So they were grossly outnumbered. The thing was, they didn't mind.
So when Lord Recluse spawned, the heroes went after him. Since the villains would get thrashed if they went up against that many heroes at once, instead they buffed Lord Recluse. Forge, Shileds, Fulcrum shift. They were killed for doing that... but they instead 'went to base' and respawned again right next to them (an issue which should be fixed).
Now they had a 30 second timer of no pvp... Again, they buffed/healed Lord Recluse with no risk at all to them, and all the heroes wiped.
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From the original post:
The mini-game for RV is a bit different from all the others since it directly effects the zone itself and the entire zone is tallied for a win or loss. Therefore, there really is no PVE element to it. Anyone in PVE mode should be rendered incapable of targeting and attacking the pillboxes or npcs (say that they are subtly out of phase with the temporal locus the anchors and PVPers are at or something ). PVE-mode characters could enter, collect badges, ask questions, learn about the zone game, but not attack anything.
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Now, what if we DO make it so that PvE and PvP cannot interact? Well what if someone's genuinely in trouble? Like for example if the PvE mobs that are nice and upgraded start hitting the PvP players hard, and the player is in trouble of getting zone debt? Well they can't really help you at all, besides someone with taunt.
Or vice verca, A pvper hero sees someone PvE getting overwhelmed, and he tries to help them out... but let's say he's a buffer class. Well he can't buff him at all, or heal him. It's rather depressing that you can't help out them unless you run back to base and 'switch off' pvp mode if this were true.
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As I go into here, the only "upgraded PVE danger" a PVPer might face is a Shivan EB. These can be dealt with in the same fashion that one deals with an abandoned Christmas Present spawn and are localized to six known locations that actually appear on the map.
The only npcs a PVE player might interfere with would be the faction-aligned spawns in Siren's Call. While putting Fortitude on a Longbow Flamethrower or rocking-the-aura for a Tarantual Mistress might fall under the category of "annoying", it isn't game breaking or something that prevents a play element. The spawns are unlikely to be that dangerous to a PVP team in the first place, they are again localized to specific spots and any PVP-build worth its salt has un-supressable travel, the hotspots and "control of Siren's Call" would no longer gate access to the currently un-bought-and-unused reward temps with implementation of merit-alikes, and at the current time the hotspots already serve merely as map locations to let PVPers know "where the fight is". I actually see people more often fighting near the oil rigs.
The expression of charity in the above statement also might be seen as admirable, but the specific players in quiestion might also see it as interference. Furthermore, that type of situation is an edge case. It's not terribly often I run into a character in a regular zone that is in over their head, rarer that I'm in a position to do something about it in time, and rarer still that assistance is wanted.
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I'm not seeing a way that this wouldn't be exploited, unless you made it a 1 time deal. After they enter the zone and not con for pvp, if they enter again, they are flagged for pvp.
The way I see it, if a badge hunter just wants to badge hunt and has NO interest in pvp whatsoever, no matter how many rewards or goodies are thrown in... well they go in once, get everything they need, and leave with no problems.
Wether or not this would be limited to actually exiting or logging out, I'm not sure. But I would be sure that it would be once per pvp zone.
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From the original post:
A potential criticism of this idea I've heard before is "PVP is for PVP zones and PVE is for PVE zones; leave PVP for PVP". This mental segregation is foolish. Beyond the fact that there is already nominal reason for PVEers to enter for badges and such, all the PVPers already PVP. It is the PVEers that would need to be courted to find something appealing in PVP for it to flourish. That will only happen with more (and better) exposure. This also doesn't "destroy PVP" by any stretch of reality. All those who PVP will still PVP. Those who had thought about it but didn't want to make design compromises for the rest of the game will give it a second look. And those who avoided PVP zones 100% of the time are now free to enter the zone and possibly be invited (or repelled) by what they see to give it a try. The only standpoint from which this is a bad thing is the opinion that PVEers are drawn into PVP zones to be the rightful prey of dedicated PVPers. Strangely, "you are there for my enjoyment" is rarely an attractive argument for people 
.
While it might have happened, I consider it unlikely that many people heard that there were badges in CoX and bought the game. Yet badging is a thriving, active subcommunity in the game. Some leapt at it when they got their first shiney, some after they had acquired a substantial collection by osmosis, some after they had tired of other activities in the game. Regardless it was always there for them to pick up (or not) as their interest and mood dictated at the time. They were not given an option of looking at it once and deciding on the spot, in that one mindset of the moment, whether they wanted to 'be a badger' or not.
If PVP is going to draw casual players, it needs to be something people can eye, poke at, leave where it is, and come back to some other time. "One tour and then get out if you aren't a true PVPer" is barely better, if not actively worse, than today's model for the PVP zones.
But far more importantly, removing the flagging concept removes the ability of the zones to be used for PVE story arcs. Traffic to the zones would not increase and the financial rationale for implementing build switching would disappear. If there is no traffic increase and no reduction in the entry barrier, there is no incentive for coding a system of grouping opposing PVP teams in weighted fashion. If neither of those are there, there's no point in making a reward system for a game element that will structurally and culturally keep itself from growing.
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Now what about the whole hero and villain thing? What if 2 people are both in the zone and PvEing... and are stealing each other's mobs?
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This is basic killstealing and already exists in the game. What's more, I've already encountered it hero-vs-villain (we did not attack each other at all) in the BB salvage yards.
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But those are my reason PvP flaging wouldn't be a good idea. I'm seeing a lot of ways to exploit the system. Plus as many problems as it might solve, there will be others that crop up.
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The above criticisms either can't happen or are edge cases. Since it gives a chance of revitalizing PVP, avoiding it for unspecified-yet-inevitable future problems is not a sound argument.
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Challanges
I like the idea around it.
Only again, like I had said for flagging, what's to stop outside interference, via buffs and healing? Wanted or unwanted, it's gonna happen. Oh and what about mobs? What if the challangers are moving around and mobs, like Longbow are shooting the villains only? Yet they can't interact with anything else but the other players they've challanged, so they can't fight back? Nor can their allys (Outside allies of the same fraction I mean) heal the damage from NPCs.
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The idea around it is you can choose which other players to interact with *period*. Whether they belonged to your faction or not. So again what you describe is not going to happen unless it is as a massive load of buffs right before a challenge is accepted. In that case I doubt the same player would accept challenge a second time (which is also the point). If you are fighting in a location where you are taking fire from your opponent *and* npcs: move.
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Here's my suggestion to this instead:
Allow challange mode to be setup the same way, but WITH being able to be interfered with by the outside. You see the challangers as conning RED as if you were taunted.
Outside players will see you conned as a lighter color of orange or blue. If the challangers are hit with outside interference, via NPC or healing, the challange is temporarly dropped for 20 seconds... thus giving them time to either move away or just drop it alltogether.
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Rather than fixing a problem that doesn't exist, this actually creates the problem it purports to address.
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Merit System
I like it. This is something we've asked for, for a long time now. But I would make 1 suggestion to this...
Most of the items listed here aren't used much for pvp. I would say add in the option for a LOT of rep to get a random generic IO (at their level), or a random pool C IO.
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The idea for the merit-alikes is that they are free to be given without distoring the market (or any other part of the game). What you describe would have to be set so ludicrously high in cost to prevent it being conceivably earned by "cheating" that it would both be pointless in code-execution and come to be seen as an insult by those it was meant to entice.
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Mutual Support
And this folks, is what it's all about. We would like some love, just as much as the PvE game gets love...
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from the original post:
Mutual Support
On the face of it, adding a seperate PVP power build for characters sounds complex, but the effort can be rationalized as work towards new PVE play options. (The Ouroboros system would ensure such content was on offer to all existing characters as well.) Allowing groups of opposite factions to merge into a "team" in which opposite faction members may attack one another but no one else might also be complicated. Or it might simply be an expansion of the existing grouping mechanics of the game and the Ouroboros limits already exist. The Merit system is proven and popular in the game already. Regardless of their difficulty or ease, in order to work all of them would have to be present at the same time. PVE to PVP build toggling is useless if no one wants to enter the zone because of ubiquitous and unavoidable bad behavior. A dueling system that lets you avoid encounters with players found unpleasant and compete with those you choose to is useless if the entry barrier competition still limits participants to those with a dedicated PVP build. Neither has any lasting appeal unless there is a reward that can be shaped to be whatever a given player might find interesting. All would have to be implemented together to allow their complements to work.
It's not about "I want as much as he got". It's about expanding the game, leaving the play elements PVPers currently enjoy*, preventing the situations that drive people from the zones right now, and giving people freedom to examine-take-or-leave PVP casually.
(*Well except for PVE activity in Siren's Call gating the 30 min temps ^_^;, but from what I've seen and heard that doesn't get used much now anyway.)
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Honestly, if the basic layout of the PvP mechanics described here were implemented, then there would be no need to have the flags in the PvP zones only. You could have the flag anywhere, in any zone, open up all zones to both sides and have a huge increase in players because now you could have true comic-based battles, complete with the monologuing before the battle (Challenge) begins.
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Well, I'd leave the game. This is in fact the only change I've been able to think of that the devs could implement that would do this. I don't want to have to deal with people PMing "PVP ME" all the time. The "PL me", "Fill?" and "buy inf?" tells get annoying enough. The last thing I need is someone following me around while I try to get stuff done and harassing me by killing spawns while I do the oh so common hunt missions just because I've spurned an invite to pvp. I've seen nothing in the flag suggestion that would prevent this.
I suck at person vs. person video games, and I don't have the time required to improve. I enjoy the PvE game because I can treat it like a puzzle game and I really am not down with being harassed.
Some of the OP's post sounds like it could be used to improve the PvP game. Best of luck on that.
I didn't read the whole thread to check, but how about allowing oberser bots into PvP zones? That way people who genuinely want to check out the zones without getting ganked can, and PvPers don't have to deal with outside buffers, training and untargettable trash talkers.