A Non-PVPer's Solution To PVP
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2008-01-25 14:21 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
Bloody Bay
Story Arc
Do you know how Bloody Bay got it's name? The island of "Ocean View" was once an offshore slave trading and plantation island. One night the captives rose up en masse and rebelled. The revolt was fought down in the harbor area with no quarter allowed. So many people were put to the sword that it colored the harbor red and renamed the island "Bloody Bay" 
. That's about as dramatic a name origin as Atlas Park has. Yet who in the game knows about it? Like all the other PVP zones Bloody Bay has a fantastic backstory which little use has been made of. Story arcs for Bloody Bay, could show us contemporary events that relate to the island's past history.
In a first arc relating the history of the island: Were the corpses of the rebellious slaves buried at the location of the Ghoulish badge? Is it their bodies that are rising from the grave?
Is this disturbed and restless past what has drawn the Circle of Thorns here?
Do the Banished Pantheon feast upon the lingering stain of misery in the hills and vice from the town?
Are the Freakshow arrived from St Martial and the new twin of the casino that once operated downtown? If so, do they seek something that was left behind?
Who was Malochio, the super villain Recluse sold the island to before his arrest? What was he doing there and what remains of his plans?
In a second arc, go more into the advent of the Shivan meteorites and the heroes who apparently (?) died trying to divert disaster for the world. Who were they and might there be some memento of these individuals left?
Mini-game
The mini-game in Bloody Bay grants the Shivan Shard 5-use temp power. It summons the most powerful pet in the game, an Elite Boss Shivan Decimator. Personally, with unslotted Fly I can get a Shivan Shard in ten minutes having only to fight the eight turrets at the bunker with essentially zero threat. Many others can do it faster...
That is RIDICULOUS!
And everyone knows it. It's been complained about for years. The ease of the task in PVE terms was set with the assumption that it would be a PVP play-element. This has turned out not to be the case as it's too difficult to intercept someone randomly and camping at one of the meteorites is boring when all other PVPers in the zone are sparring elsewhere. When commenting on it the Devs have said they are "aware of the problem" but "have no plans to change things at this time". The hanging inference being that the Shivan Shard was one of the very few things getting people to actually enter the zone and they didn't want to fiddle with the valve on gran'pa's oxygen tank 
.
With a Flagging system though, allowance for hypothetical harassment by a PVPer need not be made. Different difficulty settings could be encountered depending on whether one is in PVE or PVP mode. If in PVP mode, then possession of the spoon (I know the extractor icon is supposed to be a meteor but it looks like a spoon to me) would send a message to all players of opposite faction on the map currently in PVP mode announcing that a run is being made. The PVE encounters would remain as currently implemented and the mini-game can play out in PVP as it was originally conceived: PVP opponents hunting each other while doing the Shivan run.
In PVE mode, the npc opposition can be made much much harder. With a temp this powerful, acquiring it should be an event, it should be a team activity, it should be hard! The aggro range on the rocks for PVE flagged characters should be greatly expanded; no more hovering over the center and never spawning the guards. The respawn rate on the guards should be increased so that in the time it takes 3 or so players to get a sample it resets. And the players are acquiring a five use Shivan Decimator as a pet? Fine. Let them fight a Shivan Decimator six times. Make each PVE generated spawn of guards at the rocks consist of an EB and a coterie of Boss Shivan Destoryer bodyguards giving token xp so they can't be farmed. Make all of the pillbox turrets boss level strength and give them a regeneration rate so they can't be round-robined. These are supposed to be the all-important central masses of an interplanetary destroyer of worlds, one should not be able to wander up as if taking tourist photos. The pill boxes are supposed to be automated gun systems tough enough to survive in an environment where no people can survive for any span of time. If I can solo it on my Brute, it's still too easy! This should be a Team play-element. Without even the empty threat of PVP interference the Shivan run can have its difficulty brought in line with its reward.
A criticism might be leveled that on a low-population server someone could enter PVP mode and do the run just as simply as today. That is true, but in that case it is also no worse than it is today and the player might just get unlucky.
Siren's Call
Story Arcs
The creation of Siren's Call was a tragedy of epic proportions for Paragon City. And it was done on purpose. Yet again, who knows this story beyond a few old-hand forumites who remember the Paragon Times from Sept 14 and 28, 2005?
The zone itself makes for a "what happened" investigative story arc looking into the life of Thomas Danner and his brother Robert's campaign to clear his name. Once evidence appeared that throws doubt on the idea that Sunburst "lost control", a second arc might become a quest to find any evidence hinting at culpability on the part of heroes, and a job to eliminate any lingering clues by villains. In the end the real instigator could be left unconvictable and unnamed but known to the players all the same.
Mini-Game
There are two existing mini-games in Siren's Call. The first is to control battle hotspots in the zone to gain access to the zone temp powers. Since those rewards would be co-opted by the merit-alike system, that one would likely disappear. (Or at least no longer effect the availability of the temps.) The second is to collect "bounty" on randomly determined opponents who enter the zone. Since not everyone who enters will be PVPing, that no longer is true (not that it was true before as any villain who base-sat for the Born In Battle accolade pre-req can tell you). But with an opt-in Contact option one could still add them self to the pool of bounty-seekers if they wished to participate in that type of game.
There really is no draw for PVE in the Siren's Call mini-games. Nor do either of the PVP games seem to have been terribly popular. That leaves some room for a possible addition. I mention this following not because it is any way necessary for a reconditioning of the zone, but just because it's the one thing I thought of during my ruminations that made me stop and go "that would be really neat". Siren's Call is supposed to be the gap in the war walls that Recluse made to slip Destined Ones into Paragon right? So have them do that.
Have two teams combine into a challenge grouping with agreed upon difficulty settings. Each member must have a prerequisite X-token-amount of merit-alikes which is deducted from each of them. (In other words, PVP activity in the form of merit-alikes is gating further PVP content.) Then they zone into a Mayhem Map. All of the side missions would be currently open and marked on the map and a normal Mayhem timer would be running. There would be no NPC enemies present on the streets for either side. Destroying objects in the mayhem adds time to the meter in the normal fashion, but though heroes can't fire at destructible objects they might select, their attacks can still damage them if they are in the area of effect. The heroes must be careful to limit damage to their home city while trying to expel the villains. Any mission door, including the bank, which a villain character enters activates that mission for scoring and sends a warning that this is so to the hero faction (phoned in to the police from some concerned citizen, I'm sure). Bonus time is awarded for each mission the villain faction completes successfully. The winning team is the one with the greatest number of mission completions for their faction. The bank is weighted slightly greater than 1 for this tally so it can break a tie. A bonus is granted to the final award scaling upwards with elapsed time above the original value (so there is reason to "gamble on" and try new side missions). A flat win earns back the original ante of merit-alikes to each team member and the bonus adds a percent to this. A loss regardless of elapsed time earns no merit-alikes (but the team is out no more than they were originally). Defeated characters respawn at their starting area (not the prison) with minimal HP and End, causing a delay before they can re-enter battle to support their teammates; getting defeated matters.
Arson mission
The Arson mission is set up as normal with a token representation of npcs in it. These npcs are less an obstacle than a trigger device; as soon as they are defeated, the bombs start ticking. The npcs may have been placing the bombs, but the villain team seized them and set them off right now. The hero team receives notification that the bombs are now ticking and have XX seconds before they go off. They must enter the mission, seize control of the room sufficiently to be unhindered, and click all the glowies before the time runs out. If they succeed, they win. If they fail, the villains win and set the building on fire. (It also occurs to me that while in a PVE Mayhem players simply exit at this point, opposed PVPers would have to fight their way out...and do so while the building burns around them. How dramatic is that?)
Kidnap mission
For the Kidnap, the villains must enter the map, fight or bypass hostile npcs, and locate the kidnap victim. Once the victim's bodyguard is defeated it will behave like a Warburg Tech (though hopefully with a somewhat smarter AI ), tethering to a character that clicks on them and tells them to follow. The heroes receive notification when the villains enter the map as usual, but not when the victim is found. If they enter the map, any surviving npcs will attack them as well. They must find the kidnap victim and defeat the villain to whom they are tethered. Once this is done, anyone is free to click on the victim and re-tether it. The victim will not respond to a hero until it has been tethered to a villain at least once. The winning team is the one who gets the kidnap victim back to their starting area. (This is basically capture the flag with a particularly slow and stupid flag.)
Store mission
The Store is set up like a Mayhem with the sweeping search lights, but sans any patrolling guards. If a villain crosses one of the searchlights, an ambush spawn of guards scaled to the number of villains in the side mission (or a token force if that's not possible) is generated and attacks (that Longbow militia is -everywhere- these days). Heroes pass through the searchlights unhindered and without generating an ambush. If a villain clicks the four outer glowies, that is all that is required for the first portion of the time bonus and to count that side-mission a win for the villains. They can however open the vault and take the additional two glowies for the other half of the time bonus and the SO reward. (I envision this more of a rapid-sneak type of mission than a brute force one. The heroes can move much more rapidly and maneuver their force more easily with reinforcements ready to hand. Better to have a Stalker fade out while the rest of the team is occupied elsewhere and quickly hit the mission, deftly avoid the spotlights, and snag the easy glowies before the heroes can react. They could even make a return engagement later for the vault if opportunity allows. If the heroes arrive before the villain is finished, they know it is in here somewhere...but where? Where?!?)
Jailbreak mission
The Jailbreak is relatively straightforward. The villains enter the police station and are met by a small token of ppd on the first floor (again this is a token force acting more as a speed bump; the hero team is the real opposition). In the cell block they are met by a spawn including a Boss or Elite Boss depending on team size and a timer starts. If the villains can fight their way through the guarding spawn, any hero team hindrance, and the prison door, they win and gain a pet to fight with them. If the heroes can delay them until the timer runs out, overwhelming reinforcements spawn from the elevator making a team wipe likely and a second attempt impractical. If the prisoner-pet's door has not been opened a few tens of seconds after this reinforcement spawn begins arriving, the mission is counted as a win for the heroes.
Raid mission
The Raid mission is a race to the glowie. The mission map is packed wall to wall with spawns of hostile npcs that will attack either heroes or villains. The npcs should be perception boosted so stealthing the mission is not an option. The villains will be forced by weight of numbers to fight their way through to find the glowie. The heroes on the other hand, begin generating a stream of large ambush spawns keyed directly to them (because the npcs consider the heroes the greater threat you see). This is a three way brawl with the team that can mow through fastest winning. If the villains are too slow the heroes will catch up. If the heroes try to move too fast they will meet the villains with an army of hostile npcs at their back. The first person to click the glowie gains a win for their team and a chance at a temp power as normal. (Yes this one should he hard and exhausting of resources. Funny that it's the easiest one in PVE.)
Bank mission
The villains must enter the bank, fight through the speed-bump ppd, rip open the vault, and click the glowie. The villain who clicks the glowie is granted a "money" temp power that produces a gaudy yellow aura (from the gold don'cha know). Any hero who defeats them is in turn granted the temp power, and contrariwise back to a villain. However, the winner is whoever gets the money temp back to their starting area so this is basically capture the flag played at what is likely Recall Friend speed. Best for the heroes not to let the villains "kill" the vault door in the first place (How does a Defender "empathize" with a steel door by the way?). This is supposed to be the most generic and non-team capability related.
Note that the heroes can enter any of the missions on their own at any time, it just does not put them in play as a villain entering does (and in the case of the Raid it is likely hazardous to their health to go too far).
I can see many players finding the new play types interesting: King of the hill in the Arson. Capture the flag with the kidnap. High speed hide n seek in the store. Burst damage race in the Jail. Marathon, cohesive team-PVE play with PVP elements in the Raid. And high speed capture the flag in the bank.
But the real winners would be roleplayers. Now they can actually play out the kidnapping of Penelope, daughter of scientific genius Dr Goodkind. The burning of the records office containing proof of embezzlement. The theft of the priceless statue of Neverwhere. And do it all with opponents who are playing along in kind. Imagine the angst of having to hold fire because your wicked enemy is standing next to a PPD van and you don't want to injure any of Paragon's finest, or the fatalism of choosing to fight in the middle of a parking lot with full acceptance that citizens will have their property destroyed even if it's all your opponent's blows that do the damage. They could even both start out in Siren's Call, battling to enter the city or deny their foes access; then move to the battle to the city streets. With enough time and merit-alikes one might make a marathon of it in a running battle through the city: going from Brickstown to IP to Kings Row to Skyway to Talos for the escape.
Is anyone from Virtue drooling yet?
Not necessary to help PVP, but possible with the proposed changes, and I think it would sound interesting to a lot of players.
Warburg
Story arc
Warburg contains yet more tragically unused story elements. How many people know that the Rogue Isles participated in the Cold War and signed a disarmament treaty with the United States in 1982? Usually, governments are quite careful about the psychological profile and reliability of individuals given responsibility over nuclear weapons, so who is Martial Blitz and how did he come to be in command of Warburg and its research facilities? The ability to paint any failed or exposed Arachnos operation as the acts of the renegades instead of the government of the Etoiles seems awfully convenient for Lord Recluse. How did the coup play out in such a way that the renegades completely lost the bunkers and had to wall the Arachnoids in with battle robots? Malta traded powered armor to the renegades, but what did they get in return and what interest could be so vital to them they would become so overtly involved? Even if the rebellion was a deliberate manipulation on Recluse's part, might there still be something down in the bunkers worth retrieving?
Mini-game
Like Bloody Bay, the Warburg mini-game was apparently designed with the intention that someone making a nuke run would face both PVE and PVP opposition, with the PVE challenge reduced appropriately. Also like Bloody Bay this has turned out to be a false assumption. The PVE threat is so miniscule there is even less threat than there is in Bloody Bay. You just have to kill some arachnoids, usually minions, and then jog past everything else. If a PVPer does appear though, the combination of being tied to one spot with the Technician and a PVE build being most likely helpless against a PVP one makes an attempt at a nuke run futile. (As I've said elsewhere, it's extremely rare for a PVPer to make a nuke run; the people with Technicians in Warburg are almost exclusively PVE builds.) Most people just leave the zone if there's PVP opposition.
With Flagging and build switching, the need to limit the PVE threat is removed. The renegade Arachnos on Warburg are supposed to be under siege and on edge, yet they behave in a terribly lackadaisical fashion. I swear I wonder if a Nightwidow mole is mixing Quaaludes into the mess hall chow! So far as I can tell the aggro range for all the npc enemies above ground in Warburg is much shorter than in the rest of the game. I can literally walk past a Toxic Tarantula or column of Crabspiders close enough for my character to reach out an arm and touch them and they might pause to look at me as I go past. It's extremely rare for them to fire off a potshot and they never ever pursue. If you are in PVE mode in Warburg they should shoot on sight, shoot first, shoot to kill, and keep shooting. Going from the bunkers to a drop off point ought to be a fight, not a familiar stroll with the same non-responsive patrols in the same place ("Evening Ms Kringle! Mr Tarantula, I urge you to have a dentist look at those; they're turning green."). The Rogue Arachnos spawns would need to be made more responsive, more aggressive, and possibly even larger in numbers/rank. The arachnoids are a bit different as you are in close quarters with them and must engage in order to get a tech. Though again, 5 minions is not much of a threat to gain a tech from. However, most people don't know that the size of the Arachnoid spawns increases and decreases depending on the number of people in the zone! I've been down there often enough I can actually tell roughly how many people are above me in the zone and when someone enters or leaves by watching the spawn size and complement. Like a Hazard zone, these should just be large spawns as a standard. A few smaller ones would allow a bit of different play style for those who prefer sneaky tactics with the extra difficulty that they would still have to maneuver around the large spawns.
Just like the Shivan Shard, the Warburg nukes are the most powerful buff and debuff a character can acquire in the game! Right now I can get one in ten minutes; I've timed it. And this is while walking (if you use Sprint you dramatically increase the odds you'll lose the tech ). This encounter should be tough. It should be something you earn. It should take a team working together. If I can solo it on my Brute it's still too easy!.
In a PVP context, Flagging allows the mini-game to function as it was originally intended. If someone in PVP mode that does not yet have one of the Codes tethers a Tech to them self, a message should be sent to all other players in PVP mode that "Xplayer_name is attempting to rescue a Technician". Then it becomes a hunt. The npcs could be kept from interfering by applying a Stealth effect (or some other threat magnitude reducer) to PVP-mode characters that only effects the zone npcs.
Again, someone could say that if there was no one else in the zone, a player could enter PVP mode and have a walkthrough of getting a nuke. True, they could. In which case it's just like getting a nuke right now. And they might get unlucky.
Recluse's Victory
Story Arc
There are so many options here it's almost silly to go into them. Time travel now affects the game so much there is a huge body of story work to connect to. For something specific though, a zone arc might be involved with the development of time travel by Arachnos and the rescue of the technicians who created the anchors. In other words: players could be involved with the creation of the zone itself.
Mini-game
The mini-game for RV is a bit different from all the others since it directly effects the zone itself and the entire zone is tallied for a win or loss. Therefore, there really is no PVE element to it. Anyone in PVE mode should be rendered incapable of targeting and attacking the pillboxes or npcs (say that they are subtly out of phase with the temporal locus the anchors and PVPers are at or something ). PVE-mode characters could enter, collect badges, ask questions, learn about the zone game, but not attack anything. PVP play wouldn't need any significant change.
For some of the more interesting and frankly important areas of CoX, these four zones are used terribly short of their full potential.
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all your gonna do is just farm behemoths anyways
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edit: well thought out post, had to quote this though
too perfect of a situation
lol
@TheBro
solo pvp?
Cooler than every single owl EVER.
I really [censored] hope a Dev of some sort reads this. Great posts.
I agree. While I might disagree with a few minor points (very minor at that), the over-all theme and ideas presented are definitely worth looking into.
"the reason there are so many sarcastic pvpers is we already had a better version of pvp taken away from us to appease bad players. Back then we chuckled at how bad players came here and whined. If we knew that was the actual voice devs would listen to instead of informed, educated players we probably would have been bigger dicks back then." -ConFlict
There is so much to like in this post, and I think that it does really cut to the heart of what needs to be done to get PvP moving the right direction.
Expanding the audience is as important as anything in order to truly advance things, many other suggestions I've seen seem like half-measures designed not to offend the sensibilities of those that already enjoy PvP in the game. This solution seems to look at it as how can we disrupt those people's experience as little as possible while still making changes big enough that they'll actually have a noticeable impact.
I also think that the dual nature of some of these proposed changes makes them a less risky proposition in terms of the Devs deciding where to allocate resources. It turns out maybe you can "fix" the PvP game while expanding the PvE game at the same time, insuring that any effort put forth will never be entirely wasted.
Kudos, great post.
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Challenges
Being able to switch builds and turn the PVP flag on and off isn't enough though. That only addresses the issues with specific encounters in the most tangential way. Once the PVP flag is on you could still be teleported into a kill box while dueling or end up facing a monstrosity loaded up with Purple IOs purchased from Gag-me-with-a-wonton.com (what does "Shock the Christmas" mean anyway??). A further way to manage encounters, relative power levels, and minimize interference is needed. For this a method of being able to "invite" an opponent to a fight is needed.
Upon being invited to a challenge and accepting, both members would switch to a flagging scheme such that they could only attack one another. No one else could attack them and they could not attack anyone else. (I do not know if this is possible with existing tech.) If the challenger or challenged is a team leader, then all of their team would enter the challenge on their side.
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Wow, you have evidently put a lot of time, thought, and effort into this. I wouldn't have a problem with what you suggest but for some reason I don't think the Devs will go to a challenge-only style of play.
Maybe a challenge could not be refused but would start a count down timer. So if you were being griefed you'd have time to leave and if you wanted to PvP you'd accept. So of goes against their 'free-for-all-dive-right-in-and-start-fighting' philosophy they have in the PvP zones. But OTOH that's not exactly meeting with universal love either.....
You bring up some great points in this post, I for one am a huge supporter of the cross over builds!
Ex
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You bring up some great points in this post, I for one am a huge supporter of the cross over builds!
Ex
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first after a read name!
Edit: my stupidity aside its a real good idea. The only thing i really dislike is the whole pve/pvp build thing. But that is just me I may be a sadist but I like the idea of sacrficing pvp awesomeness for pve awesomeness. Always seemed kinda balaned to me. But otherwise I sincerely wish that this is implemented!
Wow.
This is one of the best posts that I've ever read on this forum. Excellent work sir. 
I thought this was the suggestions forum, I didn't know Red Names actually posted in here.
*honestly It too long to read down to the part that it said it was a long post, so I'm going back to read it.
**I got through the first part and half way through the second part, and I agree as from a blance to PvP/PvE these sound like great ideas. The only large hurdle besides some of the technicle limitations are RP limitations. I mean what RP can you use to explain why someone with thier PvP flag down can't be attacked, or why if they are locked into a Challenge why they can't be attacked by the non challegne PvPers. Maybe youcan use the desynchronized time/space shift thing you mentioned in the RV.
Wow great post, I love the ideas. Being able to expand on the zones that already exist and getting people/teams in there for PvE content would be a huge help and lots of fun. Those same people coming in for a PvE mission may just start putting on that PvP flag, do a mission then some PvP then onto the next mission.
Very complex and well thought out post, I really hope at least some of the ideas get implemented down the road.
Nice work, HB. You have eloquently and accurately described my feelings about PvP and the PvP Zones. Your experience with MMO PvP seems evident, and I expect that the developers would be wise to pay attention to you.
Global: @FuzzyOne
Find me playing these servers: Champion, Justice, Freedom, Virtue and Pinnacle
I dislike pvp, and while the fixes suggested may not bring me in to pvp I think that they are great suggestions that will help pvp overall.
hope some of these ideas get implemented. I like the flagging idea so I can actually enjoy some of the zones without having to worry about getting ganked. I like the idea of having to flag yourself for pvp if you want to do a mission, so in order to get a nuke or a shivan you have to be flagged, more over a warning system to other players would make things a lot harder to get and quite frankly it may need it.
Great post so far, I haven't finished reading it in its entirety, but it deserves a thorough read. I just want to say you have brought up a lot of good points.
I used to HATE pvp. I mean loathe it. Then some games created objective based pvp with rewards: Dark Age of Camelot and World of Warcraft come to mind. Now it's not some mindless kill fest it's now a game, a sort of blood sport if you will. I would like to see pvp encounters balanced somehow, I think WoW had a very good approach here. However, I think the brilliant devs on the CoX team will come up with an alternate solution that maintains the same goals, but makes it a unique experience.
Well said, sir, well said.
Excellent points and plausible solutions.
I have also been thinking of a solution which might solve the trash talk issue in zones.
In large events when people are all on the same team, they sort of govern themselves, and behave in a friendlier more supportive way.
So what if as soon as you enter a PvP zone you are automatically joined to a giant team. You become a hero side team or villain side team.
Each side will include everyone who enters the zone of that alignment.
You won't have to help if you don't want to, but it will make for a far more supportive environment.
Then the one free for all zone can stay as is, so that old style PvP can also still take place.
Just a thought
so for my second read through here, I really studied the stuff and did what I could to find reasons why it wouldnt work and the only thing I could forsee having a problem with is the challenge system, and then only becuase I fear that zone activity would suffer (everyone likes to control the fight) but even that could be tweaked a bit and made into something very enjoyable
that said, the general idea of this post is also the best suggestion I have ever seen made: Make PvP zones fun for PvErs while retaining the fun stuff that PvPers already love
exposure is the only way to get more people involved. the only way.
and as of right now, there isnt much of an opportunity for that unless you already have interest (and even those people get put off easily by some random joeblaster killing him instantly when he enters)
@TheBro
solo pvp?
Cooler than every single owl EVER.
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Excellent points and plausible solutions.
I have also been thinking of a solution which might solve the trash talk issue in zones.
In large events when people are all on the same team, they sort of govern themselves, and behave in a friendlier more supportive way.
So what if as soon as you enter a PvP zone you are automatically joined to a giant team. You become a hero side team or villain side team.
Each side will include everyone who enters the zone of that alignment.
You won't have to help if you don't want to, but it will make for a far more supportive environment.
Then the one free for all zone can stay as is, so that old style PvP can also still take place.
Just a thought
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a lot of people would be apposed to this (the solo-only guys and such)
still a pretty good idea though
the best way to stop trash talking, though, is to implement the flag system that the OP suggested. I dont know about you guys, but when Im in RWZ and see an MM, I love to chat with him about this and that and its usually an enjoyable discussion
when I'm in sirens and see an MM in sirens, I jump down and kill him, he gets mad at losing, he comes to kill me, we get in an epic unspoken battle, the winner gets an ego shot and says something offhand, broadcast pvp ensues
if you started out nuetral to everyone and had the opportunity to share thoughts with one another without fear of getting extremely ganked, if you could type something more than "PWND" after killing someone without fear of landing your jump too soon and getting AS'd, peoples attitudes would surely sweeten
edit: how you like my multipost?
@TheBro
solo pvp?
Cooler than every single owl EVER.
Hmm..
I too, have been giving the PvP situation a lot of thought.
First off, GREAT post. You put a lot of thought into it. And while i wouldn't argue at ALL if these changes were made... well, i do have some... thematic reservations about the overall concept of what you propose.
Good guys and Bad guys FIGHT each other. It's how it is.
Though I think maybe your ideas, if heeded, need to be taken to a bit more of an extreme in regards to Shivans&Nukes, much like in your RV idea: Be in PvP mode or you CAN'T get them.
Also, let's not forget Stalkers, even though I'm sure we'd all like to (except, well, the dedicated Stalkers). There's NO POINT to playing one if you have to ask someone to accept your challenge. No one in their right mind, except maybe a built-up stalker-killer, would accept.
The whole point of Stalkers is to sneak up on someone, deliver a crushing blow, finish them off and slip away. Asking permission to do that isn't part of the job description.
I mean, think of it like this: Stalker asks you to duel. You say yes. You get TP Foe'd, AS'd, stunned, and killed. Okay, deflag.
Stalkers would run out of victims reeaal quick, and they would lose all purpose for existing in the game (because, apparently, the attitude towards stalkers in PvE is... well, "lawl stalkers". Not that they're not effective, but slow soloers (hide, kill, RUN... hide, kill.. RUN!), and no one wants to team with them.
Of course, maybe they deserve to get run out due to boredom.
That aside, i love your ides for expanding the story of the zones. Some other people have wanted PvP missions beyond just mayhems/safegaurds, perhaps such an idea can be integrated into the Zone arcs (voluntary, of course.. if one wanted to run the missions PvE, they could).
The PvP-spec idea is nice... however, they would need to add stores to the PvP zones or something, because my ideal PvP build would tend to take different powers and even POOLS than my PvE one... and I'd need new enhancements. Unless you mentioned this and i skipped over it. The only "problem" with this, again, is thematics. Why/how should/would/could my Mind/Kin/Fly/Fit/Psi
suddenly become Mind/Kin/Leadership/Fit/Primal because she stepped into a new zone?
I realize that's a rather... RP'ish concern, but i think it might bug some people UNLESS we had some kind of mission that explained away the "PvPspec"... like have the intro mission in each zone have you use a radioactive power amplifier, and it's explained that if/when you're within a couple miles of one of these devices, your powers change. Just something in-game besides just "oh, you cant teleport or box anymore and you lost half your secondary, but you can run real fast, have leadership and here, have a med kit to heal your teammates!"
=)
What I've been thinking is basically a scaling buff/debuff system based on wins and losses. Killing the same person more than 3 times nets you a debuff.. and another, and another. Losing nets you buffs. I'd call this "Getting cocky" and "Feeling vengeful". The problem is that it doesn't address PvPs other failings, and it rewards failure while punishing success. It might go a long way towards forcing players to seek new victims instead of picking on the same person over and over, but that's about it. I'd also like to see an auto-mod system that punishes people for using certain key words in chat (noob, pwnt, swear words) which would also accumulate several severe debuffs and eventually a kick from the zone.
Basically, I was thinking the game should force buffs and debuffs to even things out while encouraging fair sportsman-like play. But again, you'd hear no argument from me if your ideas were actually integrated.
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
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Excellent points and plausible solutions.
I have also been thinking of a solution which might solve the trash talk issue in zones.
In large events when people are all on the same team, they sort of govern themselves, and behave in a friendlier more supportive way.
So what if as soon as you enter a PvP zone you are automatically joined to a giant team. You become a hero side team or villain side team.
Each side will include everyone who enters the zone of that alignment.
You won't have to help if you don't want to, but it will make for a far more supportive environment.
Then the one free for all zone can stay as is, so that old style PvP can also still take place.
Just a thought
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a lot of people would be apposed to this (the solo-only guys and such)
still a pretty good idea though
the best way to stop trash talking, though, is to implement the flag system that the OP suggested. I dont know about you guys, but when Im in RWZ and see an MM, I love to chat with him about this and that and its usually an enjoyable discussion
when I'm in sirens and see an MM in sirens, I jump down and kill him, he gets mad at losing, he comes to kill me, we get in an epic unspoken battle, the winner gets an ego shot and says something offhand, broadcast pvp ensues
if you started out nuetral to everyone and had the opportunity to share thoughts with one another without fear of getting extremely ganked, if you could type something more than "PWND" after killing someone without fear of landing your jump too soon and getting AS'd, peoples attitudes would surely sweeten
edit: how you like my multipost?
[/ QUOTE ]I am a solo only guy, So I know what that side of the reaction might be, but just because you join a team upon entering the zone, doesn't meant you must help them. But the situation will be better for everyone if you do.
I agree that the flag system would be better but my concern is that seems like a more expensive/difficult solution, so I am proposing a compromise solution that may be cheaper to and less time consuming to install
Solid post.
I left CoH after pvp went live. It's annoying to have pizza runs to those zones. I have absolutely no interest in pvp and everytime it affects my pve it ticks me off.
I think your suggestions are great and I hope it all works out. My only suggestion would be that at lvl 1, maybe in the tutorial, there is an opt out toggle so that players who don't want to don't have to deal with it at all. If it's optional, then it should be truly optional. That's just me.
Damaged can be healed, stupidity -- well .... that's just funny to watch.
Great post, some really great ideas in there.
I hope the dev's use the majority of your suggestions. I particulary liked the bank mission idea in sirens.
Very nice post. Organized, plenty of great points.
Personally, I feel that, regarding the player conduct issue in PvP...Well, there are lamers everywhere. PvE and PvP alike. I find it a general problem for the game, and feel it's rather unfair to chuck it on PvP. The only reason PvP seems more "unfriendly" is because the people who do flame 'n lame are situated in a small zone with a limited number of people in it, which concentrates their hate on the few who decide to go to, say, SC, for example.
It's not like running around in Atlas where there's a lot more people, or simply going to a different zone to get away from them, etc., etc.
Once again, great post. Hope the PvP community gets some positive attention now from the devs.
Behold the power of one.
I don't PVP. At all. But I spend a lot of time in PVP zones for various reasons. "What to do about PVP" has become topical in the last week, but I've actually been thinking about this for the past two months. Ever since Ex Libris last tried to get a list of desired PVP improvements, viewed in light of the Esprit de Corp and "what's good for the whole game?" mentality from the NCSoft buyout, I've been pondering what it is that prevents PVP from performing for the game. Why does it "hemorrhage" (Ex's term) players in this game rather than hold subscriptions. I'm posting this here because it is the rest of the non-PVP CoX community that would need to be addressed for the health of this portion of the game.
.
I've taken my own experiences, two months of informal canvassing of non-PVPers on why they dont, PVPers of why they do, and PVPers of why they think non-PVPers don't and come up with what I think is a comprehensive set of solutions. This post focuses on Zone PVP and only tangentially touches on the Arena. Many of the things here have been (or most likely have been) said by others in some thread or another, I don't claim to be the original person to think of it all, but I've assembled this proposal to be a cohesive one. I'll recap the overarching major issues (those not specifically involving powerset vs powerset) facing PVP playability in this game, suggest some systematic changes to address those issues, then focus on each of the zones in turn. Yes this is a long post and if that bothers you, you need to turn back now.
The major problems with PVP are:
<ul type="square">[*]One can build for PVP or PVE, but not both. PVP is a completely different environment and calls for different powers than does a PVE build. Optimization in one hinders effectiveness in the other and PVE is the majority of content in the game. This creates a barrier to entry that is usually over come only by individuals who wish to forego PVE play with a given character and make a "dedicated" PVP toon or lv50s who are now "done" with PVE and respec into a PVP build in search of something new to hold their attention with that character. This barrier needs to be lowered so that PVP can be entered casually, rather than in dedicated fashion.
[*]There is a steep learning curve associated with PVP. In addition to different powers being optimal, different skills are required and a new set of game mechanics must be learned. Never the less, potential new PVPers are thrown in at the highest difficulty with veterans having optimized builds able to attack them. There needs to be a way for new players to find challenges more to their ability while they learn or simply to be able to hang around in PVP zones and ask questions without fear of being attacked by someone who outclasses them.
[*]There is no "reward" for PVP. As it currently exists, the only thing that can be taken away from PVP is "rep" points which are easily earned by attacking PVEers in-zone or "newbs" who have little ability to fight back (see above point). A productive reward with effect on a character rather than spoofable emotional gratification would expand the appeal of PVP. Yet, PVP is a social interaction. Unlike PVE rewards which come from overcoming set situations, the addition of a human opponent who can "throw" an encounter limits what rewards can be given. A PVP reward flatly cannot be: advancement xp, influence/infamy, power enhancements, or anything "tradable" which could be used to distort the market. A reward for PVP needs to be found that is appealing yet cannot distort the rest of the game through cheating.
[*]Defeating someone in PVP does not accomplish anything. A player respawns immediately after defeat in zone-pvp no worse for wear save the need to Rest or heal. This continues until one or another participant gets sick of it. Beyond a lack of reward, lack of a certain end-point means there is nothing to work towards and no reason not to stop and leave the zone as soon as that realization dawns. Furthermore, since a beaten foe can always come back short of certain humiliation, a note of ego ends up coloring victory and defeat. There needs to be a metric for who won a fight short of "I can always push you down".
[*]The PVP zones currently have an overwhelmingly bad play atmosphere. When CoH was first designed, care was taken to lay out a game for casual players that would not suffer from some of the more common griefing in other games. For example, spawn camping, kill stealing, and general harassment were avoided by making the majority of game content Instanced. This grief-proofing does not appear in PVP. The general paradigm is a free-for-all in which anyone can be attacked by anyone at any time. The choice of whom to play with is someone else's, not one's own. Any misbehavior cannot be censured by electing not to play with the offender. Grossly uneven matches, in terms of both strength and numbers, can be initiated and are even sought after. Other players are permitted to be 'objects' rather than people who's continued association is dependant upon their own enjoyment and any protests of displeasure are met with derision (i.e. "cri moar plz QQ"). In comparison with the genial, consensually associative, and casual profile of the rest of the game this environment is repellant and many players refuse to enter PVP zones at all due to it. This is the most overshadowing problem with PVP as it currently exists and any "fix" which does not address it will leave this game element with a sour and unattractive experience. There needs to be a mechanism for avoiding trash behavior while associating with the playmates of one's choice as there is in the rest of the game.
[*]Team vs team play is difficult, if not pointless in PVP zones. It has been stated by the Devs that PVP was "balanced around teams". With the entirely random makeup and capabilities of a "team" in CoX that's always sounded like a cop out to me, but lets take it at face value. When entering a PVP zone, whether on a team or not, you are immediately opposed by the entire population of the other faction present. This random distribution ultimately results in alternating sieges of the opposition's base where one faction will stay inside while the dominating population sits outside. The outnumbered players will eventually leave, causing the higher population group to get bored and lose members. The balance then shifts as more people come in for the previously smaller faction and the cycle repeats. There needs to be a mechanism by which a team of PVPers can find and limit themselves to an equivalent opposing group regardless of the current random population distribution in a zone.
[*]There is no draw for the zones other than PVP. The non-PVP content of the PVP zones consists of badges, BB & WB mini-games (which PVPers do not play), and zone missions which are uniform and boring. If the majority of casual-players in the game are going to consider participating, there needs to be more reason to enter the zones and be exposed to it. The monolithic single-purpose mentality of the zones has failed. The model needs to be more along the lines of a mall food store where in someone walks by with other errands in mind and spontaneously thinks "I'd like to have...a Cinnabon @.@". A high level of traffic is critical for that kind of model. Beyond limiting things that actively repel players (see previous points), there needs to be content in the PVP zones which appeals to a broad section of the playerbase for its own sake
[*]It is not worth the effort to make PVP-only changes. The population of PVPers in CoX has been falling for years. With the Herculean organizational efforts and NCSoft support of the last six months the numbers are at best treading water. I can think of little sadder for a game developer than to see one of their carefully crafted toys sit unused and forgotten by its audience. A list of new developments for PVP would always have to be weighed with the consideration it is likely to be good time and money after bad. This is doubly true when the most brilliant idea could be conceived for PVP play, but the culture and unpleasantness of the current PVP population could drive people to not even give it a second glance. It is the combination of these two points that would prevent and serious undertaking to overhaul PVP. In order for it to be worthwhile for significant development resources to be committed to PVP in CoX, it must come coupled with content of benefit to the rest of gameplay and/or using pre-existing tech.[/list]
Fortunately, I think all of these can be addressed with a combination of three things.
Flagging
The idea of having a separate PVE and PVP powerbuild to switch between is not new and some other games already employ it. However, just on the face of it this would involve doubling the database for powers taken at level, slots placed, enhancements slotted, etc for potentially every active character in the game. And this is tinkering with the system that records the fundamental information which defines how a much-beloved and time-invested character plays. While I am not a DBA, from over here that sounds like what is referred to as a "non-trivial problem". If the only benefit for the game is to PVP with the gamble that it will cause people to flood into the "sick man" of CoX and become a subscription draw then it doesn't seem all that worth it.
However, the value in the development goes up if switching between the build-types is tied directly to the player's PVP flag. Currently, the flag is set the instant one enters a PVP zone and a 30 second counter is started. Consider if one first had to speak to the zone mission-contact and click "switch to PVP mode" in the menu; only then having the 30 second timer begin. This would have an immediate salutary effect on zone behavior since players can choose not to become a target and if someone wants to play with them they will have to entice them. Potential new players also have freedom to explore the zone, ask questions, and make observations without constantly looking over their shoulder or falling prey to outclassing bullies seeking easy "rep" points.
But far more importantly this "clears the decks" so to speak in the PVP zones to add new play content. Issues 8, 10, and 11 featured some stellar new content added to this game; some of which are still very popular after many months. But each of those required a massive reworking or de novo creation of a zone (Old Faultline to new, Rikti Crash Site to Rikti War Zone, and Ouroboros). If there is no concern over PVE players being attacked while running a story arc there, Bloody Bay, Siren's Call, Warburg, and Recluse's Victory would require absolutely -no- development time to geographically rework. They are ready made as they are. Furthermore, each of them has an interesting concept behind it that is little explored elsewhere and even long time players are unlikely to already be aware of. (Go into the general game population and see how many people know what happened in Siren's Call.) In this light, a PVE to PVP build-switching flag could be thought of less as a large change for a small sub-community with a questionable chance of growth than as a way of opening up pre-existing zones for known-to-be-productive content additions.
In practice: the PVP-mode would remain off when one entered a PVP zone. Upon talking to the zone mission contact for the first time, the system would be explained and an option given to create a PVP power-build. Accepting this option, a respec would begin to create a separately standing power build. Powers could be repicked/slotted and copies of all currently owned enhancements would be available to be emplaced. However, all unslotted enh could not be placed in the storage tray and would disappear for zero inf (or simply have the system keep track of the sales amount and subtract that much immediately after it is added). This is so that someone could not "create a PVP build", slot none of the enhancements, and recoup their entire enh investment or have rare items duplicated to carry back to the market (can't be dupin' rares now can we?). Once the respec is exited, the two builds exist separately. The PVP one could only be accessed by going to a PVP zone mission-contact and selecting "enter PVP mode". If the zone is exited, the PVE build automatically reverts. A separately recorded power-tray arrangement would appear in each mode. Enh could be added to the PVP build at any time by putting them in the storage tray, entering PVP mode, and slotting them normally. The build could be respeced by entering PVP mode and choosing an option to use a respec from the zone mission-contact. However, no inf or enh could be retrieved from any PVP build respec; enh can go into the PVP build but they can never come out.
The barrier to entry for PVP is reduced from dedicated builds to something casual players can outfit themselves for. The learning curve is softened since one can explore, ask questions in-game, and observe instead of being driven from the zone five minutes after arriving. The mood is slightly improved since gross misbehavior can be avoided and there is awareness that potential playmates might have to be talked into participating. Traffic increases dramatically, improving exposure and creating a larger pool of potential players to entice into joining a PVP session. Finally, instead of being a gamble, content of a type already proven to have sales appeal can be added to the game for lv15-50.
I feel the need to point out that it's not that I don't long to see War Witch's next piece, but opening up four pre-existing zones for new content sounds like a heck of a short-cut to me.
A potential criticism of this idea I've heard before is "PVP is for PVP zones and PVE is for PVE zones; leave PVP for PVP". This mental segregation is foolish. Beyond the fact that there is already nominal reason for PVEers to enter for badges and such, all the PVPers already PVP. It is the PVEers that would need to be courted to find something appealing in PVP for it to flourish. That will only happen with more (and better) exposure. This also doesn't "destroy PVP" by any stretch of reality. All those who PVP will still PVP. Those who had thought about it but didn't want to make design compromises for the rest of the game will give it a second look. And those who avoided PVP zones 100% of the time are now free to enter the zone and possibly be invited (or repelled) by what they see to give it a try. The only standpoint from which this is a bad thing is the opinion that PVEers are drawn into PVP zones to be the rightful prey of dedicated PVPers. Strangely, "you are there for my enjoyment" is rarely an attractive argument for people
Challenges
Being able to switch builds and turn the PVP flag on and off isn't enough though. That only addresses the issues with specific encounters in the most tangential way. Once the PVP flag is on you could still be teleported into a kill box while dueling or end up facing a monstrosity loaded up with Purple IOs purchased from Gag-me-with-a-wonton.com (what does "Shock the Christmas" mean anyway??). A further way to manage encounters, relative power levels, and minimize interference is needed. For this a method of being able to "invite" an opponent to a fight is needed.
Upon being invited to a challenge and accepting, both members would switch to a flagging scheme such that they could only attack one another. No one else could attack them and they could not attack anyone else. (I do not know if this is possible with existing tech.) If the challenger or challenged is a team leader, then all of their team would enter the challenge on their side.
This ends kill-stealing and harassment at a stroke. If roleplayers want to play out the clash of hero and their nemesis they are able to go ahead without worries for being disturbed. Also, a disparity in zone populations does not stop play. For example, if there are three villains and sixteen heroes, the three villains could team and challenge a team of three (or whatever) heroes and play anyway without being overwhelmed by the majority population. If the populations stay that distorted, the thirteen other heroes don't all have to leave either because it could be agreed upon that the villains would rotate their opposition after each encounter. Finally, this gives more than a binary off/on response to misbehavior of other players in the zone. Players can still engage in free-for-all open-zone PVP, but if a group begins Teleport Foeing or an individual simply behaves as a bad sport, play can switch to Challenges and continue free from interference from the offenders. The "gank squad" will run short of targets and get bored and the player behaving immaturely is rebuked. Like the fact that not everyone in the zone is automatically flagged as a potential opponent engendering at least a modicum of solicitousness, the realization that opponents are people who can choose whether or not to associate with a player will engender a minimum of concern for whether the other person is enjoying them self.
Yet more benefit is found if another existing system from the game is added: The Ouroboros difficulty settings. The Challenge invitation could include a list not only of the opposition, but difficulty settings that the Challenger(s) is offering. The Ouroboros settings include: time limits, limited lives, buffed enemies, debuffed self, no enhancements, no inspirations, no travel powers, no pool powers, no temporary powers, and no epic/patron powers. I don't know whether it can be separated from "no enhancements", but the only thing I would think could be added to this list for PVP would be "no set bonuses".
The limit that immediately jumps out is "no inspirations"; no more "popping" unless it is agreed upon.
The Self-Debuff limit has the potential to even out otherwise wildly uneven matches or enh investments. No more "pwning" people who've spent less inf and concern for bringing a "wrong" non-FOTM powerset combo into a PVP zone is reduced.
But most important is the Limited Lives setting. Rather than beating on each other endlessly and being defeated not mattering, now there can be a set endpoint which is mutually agreed upon. Duelists can set themselves to "one life" and go two-falls-out-of-three to find the victor. Teams of four could set to "four lives" and see who beats who the fastest. Teams of eight could set ot "zero" and battle defensively to first-blood. There can be a goal.
If one cannot "hunt greys" who are not PVPing and an opponent can bring them self up or you down instead of an IO investment leading to permanent dominance of the field, "rep" might actually come to mean something. If everyone else can take their ball and not go home, but play without you, some social skills must be exercised. If there's an end-point and defeat matters, PVP is no longer measured by "you win when you <self-censored> the other person off"; frustrating or offending someone in PVP could become a bad thing.
A potential criticism of this idea is that it "recapitulates the arena". It does not. The arenas are dedicated PVP venues with pre-schedulable set-piece matches. Zone play is pick-up and free form; this adds to the options for play and limits hindrances. For PVP to find wider participation, it needs more spontaneous and casual participants who were on their way to do something else and decided some PVP might be fun. You can choose who to play with when, in what way, at will.
Merit System
The remaining systemic issue affecting all of PVP is a lack of reward. As stated this cannot be anything that advances a character or is tradable on the market. Fortunately such a reward system is already present in the game: Vanguard Merits. They would need to be called something else; "assassin points" or "bars of soap" or something. For the moment I'll just call them "merit-alikes". If spendable merit-alikes can be earned from PVP along with ephemeral "rep", then a broader section of the game can have something to PVP for. With little modification there is a list of rewards already present in the system as well: the Siren's Call temps. Currently most of them last for "30 minutes after purchase" (that's elapsed time, not time of use) and are only available if "your faction controls Siren's Call". They were apparently conceived as PVP-only temps and a reason to "try to control Siren's Call". Very rarely do these get purchased from what I've seen, nor does anyone seem in a hurry to try to dominate the zone for a thirty minute power; they just seem to play free-form in Siren's Call.
However, now most of these temps have an analogue that can be gotten elsewhere in the game from Safeguard/Mayhem Raid side missions. If the temps were modified to be time of use rather than elapsed time (and the teleport was made say 30 activations rather than 30 min) and purchasable with merit-alikes then you have your game-wide reward system. PVPing for merit-alikes and purchasing a pair of IR Goggles +perception power is much more reliable than running Safeguard/Mayhem side missions until it randomly gives them to you from a potential list of nineteen. Furthermore, the Raptor Pack temp would ameliorate the irritation of only Villain-side Ouroboros offering perma-temp fly power in the form of the Sky Raider Pack. And if retainable 30 Activation Teleport (enough to have fun with or use cleverly but not nearly enough to use as a travel substitute) and 30 minute use Low-G pack were available this would be the only place in the game to acquire them currently. If the Arachnos Mace was made available on both sides as well, I'd expect some roleplayers to be willing to "kill" for such a prop. These temp powers are all useful, potentially fun, and could see repeat purchasing, but are not game breaking if someone were to "cheat" and take falls for merit-alikes.
The selection obviously wouldn't have to be limited to the Siren's Call temps either. Custom weapons and exclusive costume pieces could be offered. Off the top of my head: is there a Wrestler's Championship Belt or Luchadore Mask costume option already in the game?
As the only comment I'll specifically make about the Arena: merit-alikes should also be awarded for victories in arena matches; both regular PVP and Gladiator.
Mutual Support
On the face of it, adding a seperate PVP power build for characters sounds complex, but the effort can be rationalized as work towards new PVE play options. (The Ouroboros system would ensure such content was on offer to all existing characters as well.) Allowing groups of opposite factions to merge into a "team" in which opposite faction members may attack one another but no one else might also be complicated. Or it might simply be an expansion of the existing grouping mechanics of the game and the Ouroboros limits already exist. The Merit system is proven and popular in the game already. Regardless of their difficulty or ease, in order to work all of them would have to be present at the same time. PVE to PVP build toggling is useless if no one wants to enter the zone because of ubiquitous and unavoidable bad behavior. A dueling system that lets you avoid encounters with players found unpleasant and compete with those you choose to is useless if the entry barrier competition still limits participants to those with a dedicated PVP build. Neither has any lasting appeal unless there is a reward that can be shaped to be whatever a given player might find interesting. All would have to be implemented together to allow their complements to work.
There would still remain issues specific to individual powersets (see: Aim + Build Up + Tactics vs Super Reflexes), but trying to address those before making the system itself work would merely be rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Once the rest of the PVP-game functioned, empirical looks could be taken at making various sets work better in that particular environment.
I'll focus on each zone and go into how they might be set to attract more players to enter in a separate post below.