A Non-PVPer's Solution To PVP
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2008-01-25 14:21 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
The way to rememdy this situation is to increase the player pool in PvP zones/arenas, one way to do this is link the zones/arenas across servers so that PvPers from all servers can get a shot at each other and populate the PvP areas, thus enticing more people to join in.
[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with this. Also, do this for Pocket D.
[/ QUOTE ]
Many people's complaints with PVP in CoX are with the experience itself, not necessarily the population of the zones themselves. Indeed, this might appeal to the currently shrinking PVP population, but is very unlikely to bring in or hold many new players. This would be work by the Devs to no profitable benefit.
[ QUOTE ]
As for the main subject of this thread, I have to say that there's nothing I would love more than to speed into the PvP zones, grab the exploration badges, toy with the mobs for a little bit and laugh at all those fools sending me duel requests as I exit back to the real game.
[/ QUOTE ]
That's what many do already. Well maybe not the laughing part, but they don't bother to stop and PVP.
[/ QUOTE ]
I think the person you are responding to is explaining exactly what would happen if they got the ability to unflag themselves for pvp in a pvp zone. People would not be using it to study what goes on in the zone, they would be using it (especailly villside) to go in and grabe the badges they need for their accolades and just leave.
Being untouchable would only make it easeir.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
[ QUOTE ]
PvP and PvE just should not mix. I feel that trying to entice people to PvP with PvE rewards is just not the right way to go about it. People who PvP do so because they WANT to PvP. Making someone who doesn't want to PvP have to participate in it because there's PvE stuff to do will annoy them and also annoy the PvPers who are simply going by the conditions of a PvP area and defeating people they see. I was sure that a long time ago, a consensus on the boards was reached that said PvE rewards and content should -NEVER- in the future be mixed ever again because of all the current problems. No badges, no plaques, no story arcs, nothing. PvP is PvP. You battle your friends, or strangers or whatever, that's all it exists for. It's meant to be something different, not the same thing as something else repackaged.
[/ QUOTE ]
The problem then is that you alienate people like me who say : "I'd PvP if there was something in it for me."
Otherwise, I just get my PvP fix elsewhere.
Making the PvP zones more interesting and dynamic would be a benefit to the PvP community, but I seriously doubt it would pull any PvE'ers out of the game into those zones. CoX is seemingly made up mostly of folks who just don't want to PvP, and all the bells and whistles in the world won't entice them into a zone where they can and will get beat down repeatedly by competitive players with UBER builds or by multiple players tag-beating them.
For many PvE'ers, being defeated before you can even walk 10ft does not equal fun.
Just discovered this idea. Read the original post, skimmed the rest, so forgive me if I overlooked something:
This is FRAKKIN' BRILLIANT!
I'm not a PVP'er. I will probably never be a PVP'er. It just doesn't appeal to me.
THIS, however might actually get me to try PVP. I don't want to build my character for PVP and have him be handicapped in PVE, because that would still be the majority of my play. Having an alternate build is an excellent solution to that.
Having alternate versions of the various missions for non-PVP players is also excellent. And as described, they appear to be enough harder than doing them in PVP mode to keep it balanced. (You want a Shivan? You don't want to PVP? Get a team. It probably wouldn't be hard to find some like-minded folks!)
Even if I never tried PVP this way, it would still enhance the game immensely. I agree that it would be like new zones opened up.
Outstanding idea, well presented. This is definitely a Good Thing.
(And "capture the flag with a particularly slow and stupid flag" made me laugh!)
While Threadmancy is normally frowned upon here, I like the idea, so it is worth saving by returning it.
WUPS! Got caught up in the idea...didn't notice how old it was.
It's still brilliant!
That's a commonly presented solution, one I'm not at all opposed to.
[ QUOTE ]
WUPS! Got caught up in the idea...didn't notice how old it was.
It's still brilliant!
[/ QUOTE ]
Hence the reason we will forgive some of the dark thread arts. But perform threadmancy on a thread that is 2 YEARS old, instead of just 2 months old, and forumites are not so kind.
A number fo the "controlled" aspects (even numbers etc. on each side) are already available through the Arena...but that speaks to another problem I've encountered:
First, you have to go to Test for any active arena set-up.
Second, the Arena PvP'ers (again in my experience) are pretty elitist, so getting involved in an Arena team, league or anything like that is a pain in an of itself.
Add to that the fact that you can't roll in there with any old character...it has to be the right build. I've basically been told that I'm not welcome on a couple of occassions, even though I really wanted to get involved with Arena PvP.
Wow, long post XD Got through it though and it was a good read. A lot of what you said is great and has been discussed amongst the PvP crowd a lot. I have a few comments as well on some of your ideas:
But it's fun when you have 4 teams of 5 or 3 teams of 3. It just "feels" a lot better because you have the same amount of people.
[/list]
COMMENTS
------------
<ul type="square">[*] Multi-Builds - I would say to go as far as making up to 4 builds available in game that you can toggle so that potentially you could have: Solo PvE, Group PvE, Solo PvP, Group PvP. I feel you'd cover a lot of bases with those 4 builds. How you'd work with all of the enhancements and such has its own discussion and ideas. I'd personally choose to allow them to be toggled at any time, much like Costumes are, with cooldowns and such between switches.
[*] An Intro PvP Zone - The PvP community has also said that they'd love to implement this, as they too agree that people who want to learn PvP need a good place to do so. There is no perfect way to safeguard who can go in and out of it. Pro PvPers could always roll new chars to bypass any flags or limits set upon the intro place, so be aware of that.
A game called Audition does this very thing of making a "Beginner" server for people to learn the game. Anyone above a certain level is not allowed to go in there and you're automatically booted once you reach that level. The pro people in the game, however, roll new chars just to get back in and use their skills to win all of the matches. Not a lot of people do it though because it's too much effort for, well, nothing.
[*] Bad Atmosphere - Now this is where I'm always confused. In my entire 4 years of being here, I've only ever met like 2 people who were sincere [censored] about PvP. The PvP community is full of great people. They know the game mechanics as well as any die hard PvE person and a lot of them post very constructive posts. Yes, there's smack talk and jabbing, but that's just the PvP subculture and jargon and none of it is ever meant to sincerely make someone feel bad. I know a lot of people aren't used to it and will take being called a "noob" to heart, so it is something that actually needs to be learned with time and experience. Seriously though, saying "noob" among PvPers is like saying "dude". You start saying "pwned" for pretty much everything after a while as well
Anyways, my point is, there's already methods set in place to prevent it (the Hide Local, Private, Broadcast of the opposing side), there could probably be more, but there will never be a 100% method of avoiding PvP misbehavior aside from just flat out not going into a PvP zone or the Arena. And also, as is always mentioned because it's very true, just because there are a few, obnoxious PvPers does not mean that the entire community is like that. It doesn't mean that -ANYTIME- in -EVERY- PvP zone there -WILL- be some [censored] talking crap. There are [censored] in PvE as well after all.
A lot of times what Ive found happens is that due to our open and flexible chat system, people disable all chat restrictions so that they can talk to their friends at anytime who may be playing on an opposing side. When they go into a PvP zone they dont think about re-enabling those restrictions so that they can avoid ever receiving or seeing any messages while PvPing. Its understandable that it gets overlooked, but people should always remember that those filters exist. Youre not ever forced to listen to any opposing faction chat in a PvP zone.
[*] Flagging - I also don't like this idea for some of the reasons others have mentioned. People -will- spam requests and it gets annoying after a while. I much prefer flat out Arena events to flagging. Besides, you could always just go to the Arena and have more options there. People have asked for Arenas to include a Map Selection utility and you could also add on the Ouroboros type options to the existing match options. More flexibility and customization for matches would be awesome. I like having complete control over my PvP experience by being able to choose to go to where it is or not. I didn't like WoW's flagging system because the potential for PvP or for a request was always there, from either side.
[*] Challenges - Again, same thing as Flagging, I don't really like it and you could do about the same thing in the Arena. Now I know you had a response for this argument and it was because you wanted a match to be able to happen at anytime so that people potentially seeking some PvP action could get it, but really, I see it as the same thing.
In fact, Challenges already happen in PvP zones, a lot. This leads to...
[*] PvP/PvE Don't Mix - I'm going to have to agree with this position. Going back to the whole Challenges in zones already occurring, I personally find it annoying. The contract with PvP is that you go in and you sign up for being able to attack or be attacked by anyone at anytime. In the current state of things on my home server of Justice, you seriously need to check for certain things before engaging someone:
1) Are they there for PvE only and don't want to participate and there is a "zone wide" deal to leave them or their team alone? (Is someone in RV farming pill boxes for badges or hunting AVs for badges?) You can't mess with those people or you face the wrath of everyone who's in "the know".
2) Are the people there just doing small challenges in a corner, so you can't bother them? (i.e. Everyone stands around, agrees not to fight or interfere and just watches two people fight it out) You'll be labeled a [censored] if you try to interfere or kill someone watching.
3) Are people just standing around chatting about game mechanics and there is a "zone wide" deal going on that no PvP is taking place...in the PvP zone.
Seriously, I'm sorry, but that's some bull [censored]. That's why I stopped going to zones. It was just too much trouble to even bother going into the zones and find an actual person to fight. Whenever there wasn't any of that going on and there were a ton of people all just duking it, it was a blast. The pseudo PvE ambiance that they have now just makes no sense. Ive been told Im way too nice and shouldnt care what people are doing and just attack everyone, but I try to be a nice guy to everyone.
PvP and PvE just should not mix. I feel that trying to entice people to PvP with PvE rewards is just not the right way to go about it. People who PvP do so because they WANT to PvP. Making someone who doesn't want to PvP have to participate in it because there's PvE stuff to do will annoy them and also annoy the PvPers who are simply going by the conditions of a PvP area and defeating people they see. I was sure that a long time ago, a consensus on the boards was reached that said PvE rewards and content should -NEVER- in the future be mixed ever again because of all the current problems. No badges, no plaques, no story arcs, nothing. PvP is PvP. You battle your friends, or strangers or whatever, that's all it exists for. It's meant to be something different, not the same thing as something else repackaged.[/list]
My apologies if that last part came off as harsh, but I love this game and I love both the PvP and PvE elements of it. Because I do both things quite extensively, I've been able to understand a lot of things that go on internally with the people in each. I know you said you don't PvP at all, I know you've asked around, observed and whatnot, however, I'd still be wary to try and predict how PvPers will react to some of your ideas. Heck, I'm wary in trying to predict any kind of reaction from any player. The conclusion that I have come to about PvP is this though:
The internet and online gaming is about being able to communicate and play with anyone, at anytime, anywhere. It helps connect and reconnect friends, strangers, family and people from all over the world. I think any game that can capitalize on this concept in any of their features or systems will do well, which is why I applaud CoX for its Global Chat system. Co-Op zones and the Sidekicking/Examplaring/Lackeying/Malefactoring system are also great features in the game that help keep people playing together no matter what they're doing. The latter is something a lot of people who leave CoX come back and say that they miss. Co-Op is usually applauded in other games as well.
Because of this, I think making PvP cross-server, above anything else, would help to increase it's accessibility and potential. Not just because you can link the PvPers, but because you can link the -friends-. FRIENDS are the one thing I've witnessed make a completely anti-PvP person actually go to a PvP zone or Arena. I've heard soooooo many people always say:
"I don't PvP or bother with the Arena, unless it's with friends or my SG."
Being able to sit down and PvP with your buddy who is on a different server than you as easily as you can chat with them would help round up people at anytime if someone decided to set up a quick, fun "everyone is lvl 5! XD" match.
Of course, PvP balance is another thing that has to be dealt with, but that discussion is for another time and place. With Cross Server PvP, you could make a lot of the things you've mentioned a lot more flexible. Things like:
IDEAS
-------
<ul type="square">[*] New PvP Instances - Much like the Battlegrounds in WoW, with more people being able to play together, you could set up a system to match up even numbers of teams in a zone. I agree with you whole heartedly that it sucks when people are outnumbered in a zone. It just sucks. This is why on Justice we have Monday Night Arenas from time to time. All the matches are always evenly matched in terms of number of people. Balance, again, is a whole other thing
[*] PvP Missions - A queue system, like the zone one I just mentioned above, could also be put into effect for PvP missions for teams that want to run something like a Mayhem or another map with an objective in it, against each other. Think of what Warburg would be like if launching the rocket consisted of teams running into a mission instance and battling to the end of it through NPCs and each other to see who can hit the Launch button first.
[*] Cross Server Arena Tournaments - They could actually be done.
[*] Cross Server Base Raids - Once bases are fixed
PvP is a lot of fun and has so much potential because of its unique, fast pace and unique fighting scenarios (Air Combat, Jumping Across Buildings, Super Speeding Across a Zone). There are other things I'd personally change and add(removing NPCs, removing Suppression, removing FFA, making a giant PvP zone for anyone to go into and making everyone EX up to 50), but just like you've seen it, there's a lot that could be done to PvP.
I really applaud you for taking the time to write all of that out. You have some fun ideas and a lot of what you say is similar to a lot of observations and ideas that the PvP community has come up with. Great post