A Non-PVPer's Solution To PVP
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2008-01-25 14:21 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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Here's a thought, keep the flagging to toggle between a PvE and PvP build, or when you enter a PvP zone in instantly toggles to your PvP build. Instead of coming in from a chopper, or in a street like sirens, you enter into a base like in RV for all zones. Add some type of terminal screen/hi-tech gadget in the bases which allows you to view other heroes in the zone, would be seeing things from their perspective. They would be safe inside their base, and there would be no PvE toggle in the zones. Just off the top of my head.
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Again, that would eliminate the rationale for adding PVE content using pre-existing zones (i.e. making PVP changes pay for themselves). It would also prevent the influx of traffic to the pvp zones. People could "go to observe PVP", but still that is a pvp-centric activity instead of having PVP ubiquitously to-hand to catch when a whim might strike someone.
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Here's a thought, keep the flagging to toggle between a PvE and PvP build, or when you enter a PvP zone in instantly toggles to your PvP build. Instead of coming in from a chopper, or in a street like sirens, you enter into a base like in RV for all zones. Add some type of terminal screen/hi-tech gadget in the bases which allows you to view other heroes in the zone, would be seeing things from their perspective. They would be safe inside their base, and there would be no PvE toggle in the zones. Just off the top of my head.
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Again, that would eliminate the rationale for adding PVE content using pre-existing zones (i.e. making PVP changes pay for themselves). It would also prevent the influx of traffic to the pvp zones. People could "go to observe PVP", but still that is a pvp-centric activity instead of having PVP ubiquitously to-hand to catch when a whim might strike someone.
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Yes, but I'm trying to compromise with people saying don't add toggling between PvE and PvP to zones 
HB.
Love the ideas. But I think what the merits can buy should be beefed up. PVP is hard and thus needs better rewards.
PVP only IOs and IO sets (can be copies of the current IO sets). IOs that only work with your PVP build.
These wont impact the current market, cant be sold, cant be traded and can only be bought via merits (no drops).
Really want to see how your toon works with a few LOTGs, but dont have 50mil? No problem get a few PVP kills and buy em up. This also helps level the PVP playing field by giving equal access to hard to find stuff that PVPers have to PVE farm.
Crazy idea. Merits that buy a level. Yes its exploitable, but what if you have 5 level 50s and are tired of the PVE content. Do you really need to pay a farmer to level up your PVP toon to 50 so you can get into all the PVP content? If you set the amount needed pretty high (level of PVP effort = to PVE effort per level) then who cares? PVE farmers exploit the PVE game already.
PVP benefits should come from better(or more) PVPing not via PVE farming.
PVP merit exploits patching:
Anybody with 0 or -rep gives little or no merits per kill. (I assume getting killed gives you -rep)
Each PVP kill vesus the same person in a 4 hour sliding timeframe gives exponetially less merits per kill.
PVP in the future:
If PVPing takes off... you could add PVP only IOs, costumes, titles, and other items to ego boost the big merit earners.
Bots/Traps Guide for I19.5
RO Network
Love! Love! This post. I don't really PvP a lot. The most I do it is with some SG peeps. However, I DO like to PvP. I just don't because of the aforementioned reasons stated by the OP.
I don't know if this is a viable solution or not to the PvP build problem, but here goes.
Add another reward for hitting lvl 50. The PVP Copy/Respec. When a player turns 50, it receives a Copy/Respec Token. This reward allows the player to copy the rewarded character to a server of choice and respec it into a PvP suitable build. This particular character, when logging in is only allowed to log in to PvP zones. This would work much like leaving Outbreak where we get to choose which zone we want to start in. Limiting to PvP zones would keep players who just want to have a duplicate toon with different powers that are not for PvP from flooding regular zones with duplicate alts. These PvP toons would be tagged as not being able to leave these zones, much like we are not allowed to enter hazard zones until we reach a certain level.
The problems with this idea:
This could potentially drive up the server population of popular PvP servers. If the PvP zones were on "PvP servers" then this wouldn't be a problem. I'm not privy to the population stats so I can't say if this would cause overcrowding or not
I can also foresee labor being an issue. We already have to pay for server transfers (with good reason) and with the number of players with lvl50 toons, this could become very labor intensive on the part of those who manage this game.
And I'm sure there are those who would find a way to exploit this feature for their own personal gain.
I know there are challenges associated with this proposal, never the less, I wish it could be done.
Look at it this way: the increase in the PvP community on the Test server is encouraging people to have a PvE or PvP build on the main servers and a PvP build on the Test server.
Perhaps they should make another server like the test server where folks could copy (not move) their heros and villians and not be at risk of the cleanup a test server brings.
issues with this post:
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[LIST][*]One can build for PVP or PVE, but not both.
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wrong.
tell that to my mind/fire rsf/zone hybrid build.
perma-dom, purples, puppies and [censored].
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[*]There is a steep learning curve associated with PVP.
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that learning curve is what keeps many pvp-ers around right now. pve = the easy part of the game.. pvp = oh god thank you now i can learn something / have some fun. pvp, at least villainside, is how the non-lazy non-brain-dead non-i-want-easy-mode-nao crowd entertains itself.
[ QUOTE ][*]There is no "reward" for PVP.
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hmm i dont know if there should be, but that's a matter of opinion.
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[*]Defeating someone in PVP does not accomplish anything.
[/ QUOTE ] see the steep learning curve? yeah. that.
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[*]The PVP zones currently have an overwhelmingly bad play umosphere.[/i][/color]
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bad play atmosphere = another matter of opinion. i love the atmosphere in pvp zones. even when i have the empath and the buffed up blaster hauling [censored] behind me trying to make me into yet another flaming corpse.
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[*]Team vs team play is difficult, if not pointless in PVP zones.[/i][/color]
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only because 95% of the CoX population is slightly brain damaged and cant form a cohesive strategy when faced by a larger group in a zone. i gotta give it the freedom rv heroes, even though im never on their side, i've seen how they target the buffers and doms, then push out of the base when being camped.. but that's about 25% of the time... blame the 95% for the other 75% of the time.
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[*]There is no draw for the zones other than PVP.[/i][/color]
[/ QUOTE ] i dont see this as a problem. to each their own.
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[*]It is not worth the effort to make PVP-only changes. T
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i think that's changing. the pvp community is growing. i'm pretty sure it will continue to grow as long as pvp remains challenging in both the intellectual aspect (optimize your build or die.) and the performance aspect (learn to play your toon or be farmed).
i suggest that if you disagree with a lot of what im posting here, watch a competent arena team come into a zone. see how target calling is delegated, look at the way roles as highly specialized (you don't see any whining over sb, or [censored] over breakfrees)... it's the advanced version of this game.
I think you missed the entire point of the OPs post. This isn't about making improvements to PvP for PvPers, but making it more accessible to those that may not nessesarily have considered PvP for whatever reasons.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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I think you missed the entire point of the OPs post. This isn't about making improvements to PvP for PvPers, but making it more accessible to those that may not nessesarily have considered PvP for whatever reasons.
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by further breaking pvp for pvp-ers?
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that learning curve is what keeps many pvp-ers around right now. pve = the easy part of the game.. pvp = oh god thank you now i can learn something / have some fun. pvp, at least villainside, is how the non-lazy non-brain-dead non-i-want-easy-mode-nao crowd entertains itself.
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Not exactly. From the little I've done in PvP, it has the same patterns as other games. So if you've played them... you know how to use said patterns. Nothing more to learn than how your toon works with other power combinations. Spiking? A quite logical aspect of a game that allows for easysauce healing. You either "one-shot" or he's full.
Most of the PvP "givens" are exactly that - Givens. Now, maybe if the developers went the VF4:EVO route, and introduced a tutorial to PvP that TAUGHT those givens and other PvP tactics, people would know exactly why they were farmed, and the general quality of the PvEvPer would be vastly improved. Restrict access to PvP before doing the tutorial, even. For most of the PvPers, it'll be a 2 minute thing that'll just be a speed bump. For most of the PvEers, it will be a goddamned learning experience that they desperately need to either properly enjoy PvP or succeed well at it against decently-formed teams.
Face it, the game is extremely easy : the PvE is extremely easy, the PvP is extremely easy as well provided you don't fight someone who's decided to become an expert in it. Ultimately, since it's a competition, you WILL end up fighting someone who's better than you are eventually... unlike the PvE game.
I had a long post written up, but kept getting stuck for words.
So I'll be short,
I support the OP's ideas.
Except for the removal of the Siren's Call hotspot battles.
I like participating in those. It's fun helping out the Arachnos/Longbow and it makes me feel like more than a mere criminal or catcher of criminals.
It's really the only place where you can see and join in with largescale npc battles.
Eastern Standard Time (Australia)
is 15 hours ahead of
Eastern Standard Time (North America)
which is 5 hours behind
Greenwich Mean Time (GMT)
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I think you missed the entire point of the OPs post. This isn't about making improvements to PvP for PvPers, but making it more accessible to those that may not nessesarily have considered PvP for whatever reasons.
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by further breaking pvp for pvp-ers?
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How exactly does this break PvP? Switching on the flag still allows you to PvP, it's really a matter of when PvP is initiated, upon entry into the zone or when the flag is raised. It's not like you can jockey for position either.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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I think you missed the entire point of the OPs post. This isn't about making improvements to PvP for PvPers, but making it more accessible to those that may not nessesarily have considered PvP for whatever reasons.
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by further breaking pvp for pvp-ers?
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If your idea for improving PvP is to leave things as they are, you're in for a big disappointment. Ex's post, boiled down, says that PvP is going to be abandoned by the devs unless changes can be made to make the community more robust. What is in place now is not cutting it.
If they can make PvP appealing to the current PvE crowd (lots and lots of people) at the expense of alienating the current stagnant PvP crowd (a small, small minority that's not getting any bigger), rest assured they will do it in a heartbeat if their alternative is leaving things as they are.
So, boiled down, the answer to your question is a resounding "yes".
Looking forward to your thread of ideas on how to make the PvP community more robust.
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pvp, at least villainside, is how the non-lazy non-brain-dead non-i-want-easy-mode-nao crowd entertains itself.
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i love the atmosphere in pvp zones.
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only because 95% of the CoX population is slightly brain damaged and cant form a cohesive strategy when faced by a larger group in a zone
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wow..........I mean wow.........I suspect the poster is one of the people that alot of these posts were referring to about the unpleasant atmosphere in PVP zones.
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the pvp community is growing. i'm pretty sure it will continue to grow as long as pvp remains challenging in both the intellectual aspect (optimize your build or die.) and the performance aspect (learn to play your toon or be farmed).
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The "PVPers are the elite" concept aside, you completely lost me here.
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However, no inf or enh could be retrieved from any PVP build respec; enh can go into the PVP build but they can never come out.
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Heres where I disagree strongly. If I read this right, youre suggesting that influence spent on enhancements slotted into the PvP build is absolutely lost, because a PvP respec does not ever free up enhancements. Since PvP optimized builds are FAR more expensive, this could be seen as a penalty to PvP.
Following the model you laid out, I would make the following change: instead of the players current PvE slotted enhancements being available again to be slotted into the PvP build, the PvP build should be a blank slate. Yes, this means a player will need to re-acquire an entirely new set of enhancements to slot, potentially slowing down their initial plunge into PvP. But if enhancements slotted into my PvP build were lost on a respec, I would not risk the investment of inf spent on IOs to build it. Let the new PvP build start unslotted; let players choose their PvP slotting under the same rules by which they slot their PvE build.
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So unless Cryptic starts coding banana bombs then there is no reason to expect PvP to get out of the eternal cycle of misery which takes place in every PvP game and drives people who lose way from PvP . I am sure someone will happily come into the thread and lie about how PvP is not about winning but if you go read the Pvp forums in various online games PvPers obsess over winning and being a winner. Gracious losers are very few and far between.
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Maybe a loss in PvP should still earn merit-alikes? Certainly not as many as winning, but perhaps what we need to reward is participation and not just victory.
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This mental segregation is foolish.
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No, it's not. And I'd thank you not to so offhandedly dismiss my opinion with insults. It's not foolish. In fact, it's one of the major philosophies in this game when it comes to PvP. PvEers who don't like PvP at all should not ever even have to see it. They should be able to go about their business and not have to confront more than the most basic indications that it even exists in this game.
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Unfortunately, it's exactly these type of people that are a large part of the problem.
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And? If someone doesn't want to PvP, that's their choice. Get over it. Let them do what they want and you do what you want. I have no interest in PvP. I don't need incentives dangled in front of me, it won't make any difference. I don't need it waved in front of my face, that will only annoy me. And I -DEFINITELY- don't need the hostility in /broadcast that is almost always present where PvP is present.
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Then Id suggest you continue to not go into PvP zones.
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Regardless of aught else, I am and remain both steadfastly and vehemently opposed to any "FLAG" mechanic which would allow people in a putatively PvP zone, to be immune to each other's attacks simply by electing not to be "flagged" for PvP.
The flag exists in a form it should remain in: entering the zone in the first place.
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Youve made this clear. This is the way it is now, and the question is, is it working? Were talking about change, which, yes, is very scary. But sometimes necessary.
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No.
Remove PvE content from PvP zones altogether. Don't add more, don't make the current options more appealing.
Remove them.
No more missions of any kind.
Remove the XP and drops from any NPC in the zones.
If you want to make a new zone with PvE content that both sides can access, make it a purely PvE zone.
You can't make both sides happy by forcing them to interact.
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I dont see the forcing youre referencing.
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Cross-server PvP should be one of the main focus areas, IMO.
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Agreed. I wish I could find my thread about this from last year, but I think it got purged.
As an avid PvPer, I'm sure black_barrier is buffed to the gills with Accuracy and ToHit buffs. It's somewhat ironic that he misses the point so much.
Watching people put feet in their mouths is always entertaining.
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I think you missed the entire point of the OPs post. This isn't about making improvements to PvP for PvPers, but making it more accessible to those that may not nessesarily have considered PvP for whatever reasons.
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by further breaking pvp for pvp-ers?
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Judging from this post, and Ex's post on the other thread, I assure you, things will be done with PvP. If they go HB's route, it will improve it. Otherwise, You'll have to go find PvP on a different MMO, cause it looks like they are gonna scrap it all together. I like PvP in this game, and would hate to see it tossed aside.
Did we get teleported? We're in "City Life - CoH & CoV General Discussions" now?
This is hardly a general discussion.
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Did we get teleported? We're in "City Life - CoH & CoV General Discussions" now?
This is hardly a general discussion.
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It's been in here the whole time.
Aha! Well, that explains that.
I'll just blame rock music or something on the fact I had no idea where I was.
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pvp, at least villainside, is how the non-lazy non-brain-dead non-i-want-easy-mode-nao crowd entertains itself.
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i love the atmosphere in pvp zones.
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only because 95% of the CoX population is slightly brain damaged and cant form a cohesive strategy when faced by a larger group in a zone
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wow..........I mean wow.........I suspect the poster is one of the people that alot of these posts were referring to about the unpleasant atmosphere in PVP zones.
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Wait! You mean things like that don't encourage you to go spend your amusement/relaxation time with such a person?
Gee....whoda thunkit?
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Otherwise, You'll have to go find PvP on a different MMO, cause it looks like they are gonna scrap it all together.
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The first thing I thought of when I read this was "but then where will I get Shivans?"
Strangely that was also the second thing I thought of.
@Mindshadow
Okay, I've addressed a number of concerns about play experience earlier in this thread; but that's now far "earlier in the thread". As a recap, I'll go through what play would be like in each zone. This is what my reply to ICF_Zombra turned into, so please consider it the reply to Zombra and Fenrisulfr (who has a great avatar for his forum name).
Bloody Bay
A player zones in with PVP Flag OFF. They can wander the zone, explore, pick up exploration badges, fight random npcs, roleplay, or just hang out. They can team and run any story-arc missions that happen to be available in the zone, but cannot run any of the zone buff/debuff or patrol missions as they are not currently participating in PVP. The generic npcs in the zone (Circle of Thorns, Freakshow, etc) would be no different than they are now.
If they should decide to start on the zone mini-game, they should probably get a team together (regardles of AT). Whether they do or not, from a great distance from each rock, a Shivan Decimator spawns along with a coterie of Devastator bosses. The shivans will not leave the immediate vicinity of the rock and thus cannot be taunted away; nor will they remain aggroed on another if a player "attacks" the rock with the spoon. The mobs essentially must be defeated at each rock in order to get a sample. If the players remain at a given rock too long then the defenders will respawn as well. Yet they would give token xp and thus are not worth farming. Once each team member has all six samples, the eight turrets of a firebase must be defeated in order to process the sample, but the mobs scale to be significantly tougher than they are in the game right now.
If the player should elect to engage in PVP, they need to go back to the zone PVP contact and select "enter PVP mode". This switches them to their PVP build and a different power-tray arrangement. A 30 second timer starts counting down to the switch from PVE to PVP flag just as it does now. Once the flag is set, they are now in free-form open-zone PVP in the same way as play currently exists in PVP zones. They are free to attack and be attacked by anyone else engaged in the same activity, whether teamed or not. They can also select the buff/debuff and patrol zone missions from the PVP contact.
If they should decide to run the mini-game, they can choose to team or not, but it isn't a practical necessity. Accepting the spoon from the scientist contact prevents them from issuing or accepting a challenge and if they are already in a challenge they cannot access the spoon. Gaining possession of the mission temp sends a message to all players in the zone of opposite faction currently in PVP mode that "someone" is trying to get meteorite samples. When the player (and/or teamates) approaches the meteorite, the large spawn radius that generates the Shivan EB and coterie would not detect them; the smaller one that exists in the game now instead generates the Boss/Leutenant/Minions spawn. However, since it's the currently existing spawn radius, that's only if they are inexperienced or clumsy; there are plenty of ways to get your sample without generating the spawn at all. (I actually had to go into the game while writing the Original Post and deliberately set one off because it had been so long since I'd even seen the guards I couldn't remember what the spawn consisted of ). The PVPer's actual opposition, if any, is other PVPers. It's possible that on a low-population server there could be no one to oppose the PVPer and they would have a much easier time than if they were in PVE mode. In that case, the run is no easier than it is in the game now and there is the chance that they may just get unlucky and call down some opposition.
If a PVP mode character attempts to grief a PVE group making the Shivan run, all they can generate is a Boss/Leutenant/Minions spawn which is initially aggroed to the PVPer and should pose little additional threat to a PVE group loaded for EBs. If a PVE mode character should attempt to grief a PVPer making the run, the more dangerous spawn they generate will initially be aggroed on them, giving the PVEer (and possibly friends) time to get their samples before having to face a larger threat. If there is already an EB spawn at the meteorite because of a PVE team's defeat (or earlier griefing attempt), the PVP mode character can approach and see if the Gamester's-present-snowmen code auto-kills them because they have set unattended for X amount of time. If not, they can skip to another rock and come back to this one afterwards.
When they get to the firebase, the gun turrets scale as they do now and are no more dangerous than currently (i.e. not very but can be time consuming).
If the player in PVP mode encounters player-behavior or game conditions they do not want to participate in, they can travel back to their base (as normal or via faceplant express) and re-enter PVE-mode. If they are not done PVPing, they can also offer challenge to an individual or team and play with just them; all members of the Challenge would see each other as being in PVP mode, but all other players in the zone regardless of flag could not attack or effect the challengers as if they were in PVE mode and of opposite faction. All npcs in the zone can still attack player characters regardless of flag.
When offering a challenge, a selection of the Ouroboros difficulty settings can be included; allowing a duel or conflict to have a definite end-point in time or number of defeats and restricting access to temp powers, inspirations, or anything else that might bias a match. Self-debuff can also be engaged if the opponent(s) doesn't think the match is fair due to some other factor like normally-inappropriate primary/secondary choices. A radio button would exist when entering PVP mode which would allow one to refuse all Challenges, preventing the pop-up window from being annoying or used for griefing. (though one would expect it to still be polite to send a tell and ask first; if for no other reason than to inquire what settings the opponent would accept.)
Siren's Call
The same PVE activities as in Bloody Bay would be available to someone entering Siren's Call. They would not be automatically entered into the Bounty exchange.
When someone entered PVP mode, they could play just as in Bloody bay and again are not automatically entered into the Bounty exchange. If they decide they wish to participate in that particular type of play though, they can select to enter the Bounty hunt from the PVP contact. The cannot do this if they are in a challenge or accept challenges if they are in the bounty exchange.
The "hotspots" would still appear on the map and be active, but "control" of the hotspots would not gate access to the zone temp powers. The temps are accessed with merit-alikes (can someone please come up with a better name for these things that is easier to type and isn't a thinly-veiled pop-culture reference like my "bars of soap"?) and the hotspots merely serve to let all open-zone free-form PVPers know "where the fight is". Players of appropriate faction in either PVE or PVP mode could buff npcs of their own faction, but the npcs are so weak it really would be pointless and if they did, PVPers could just shift their fight 50 ft so they're out of aggro range to ignore the attempted "griefing".
Warburg
Playtypes available in Warburg are again similar to Bloody Bay. In PVE mode, the npcs on the streets would be of the same scale and spawn size (though perhaps more spawns in some of the emptier areas; there are some very barren streets in that zone), but would perceive PVEers from much further away and aggro faster. Moving through the streets would be a fight rather than a casual stroll. The spawns of Arachnoids would also be set to the "the zone has many people in it" sized spawns with a leavening of smaller spawns for people who wished to try and stealth the spiders.
If a character entered PVP mode, the aggro-distance for street npcs would be the same as it currently is (i.e. they can essentially walk past 98% of the spawns). Any character in PVP mode who did not yet have a launch code-piece that tethered a tech would generate a message to all other PVP mode players in the zone saying that someone was attempting to launch the rocket. Posession of a tech would prevent someone from entering a challenge and those in a challenge could not talk to a free tech.
Recluse's Victory
In Recluse's Victory, a PVE mode character could explore, talk to people, get exploration badges*, enter any story-arc missions, but do nothing else. No npc would attack them and they could not effect npcs. Since the entirety of the zone is tallied for the win or loss of the mini-game, only those in PVP mode and not in a challenge could participate.
(* If PVE characters cannot get exploration badges, then they must construct a PVP build in order to get an accolade pre-req. That would be terribly counter-productive to a series of changes attempting to present PVP as casual and consensualy-associative to the majority of the playerbase. A huge Red Line.)
All the play types that are currently in the PVP zones would still be available (with the exception that "controlling Siren's Call" does not gate access to the zone temps). One can choose when and with whom to PVP rather than it be someone else's decision. And the variety of play types expands. Finally, PVP changes are able to be considered at all because they open up pre-existing areas to new PVE content.
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HB.
Love the ideas. But I think what the merits can buy should be beefed up. PVP is hard and thus needs better rewards.
PVP only IOs and IO sets (can be copies of the current IO sets). IOs that only work with your PVP build.
These wont impact the current market, cant be sold, cant be traded and can only be bought via merits (no drops).
Really want to see how your toon works with a few LOTGs, but dont have 50mil? No problem get a few PVP kills and buy em up. This also helps level the PVP playing field by giving equal access to hard to find stuff that PVPers have to PVE farm.
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My concern here would be that "IOing Up" your PVP build might lead to a long stretch of thrown-matches until the desired enh were available. I also didn't want to 'penalize' people who'd already put large amounts of Inf into their enhancements and make they "had to do all of that again" once they started PVPing. Still, it's not a terrible idea.
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Crazy idea. Merits that buy a level. Yes its exploitable, but what if you have 5 level 50s and are tired of the PVE content. Do you really need to pay a farmer to level up your PVP toon to 50 so you can get into all the PVP content? If you set the amount needed pretty high (level of PVP effort = to PVE effort per level) then who cares? PVE farmers exploit the PVE game already.
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Just the idea would be corrosive. From a Dev perspective and trying to manage the player's expectations and perspective I'd call "no" on this one.
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PVP merit exploits patching:
Anybody with 0 or -rep gives little or no merits per kill. (I assume getting killed gives you -rep)
Each PVP kill vesus the same person in a 4 hour sliding timeframe gives exponetially less merits per kill.
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I'll leave any comment on specific rewards, reward weighting, and cost-amounts to someone who knows more game-theory than I do.
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PVP in the future:
If PVPing takes off... you could add PVP only IOs, costumes, titles, and other items to ego boost the big merit earners.
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My friend Ogon_Dark (who also helped me proof-read the Original Post) suggested something similar with PVP-only enh that would exist to address imbalances in specific builds. It's not a bad idea, but is a solution looking for a problem at the moment and couldn't be justified until/unless PVP took off. Put a pin in the idea for later.
Being able to publicly display your PVP history at a glance was the impetus behind my suggesting a "Wrestler's Championship belt" and "Luchadore mask" costume pieces purchaseable with merit-alikes. Purchaseable titles I hadn't considered and can't think of specific ones for. Anyone else with specific costume piece ideas?
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My main objection is to being able to turn yourself off from pvp in a pvp zone.
I can never agree to that. The warning before you enter the zone is there for a reason.
If you want folks being able to observe in a pvp zone, then make it an "only affecting self" tag. That way they can't do anything till they flag themselves ON for pvp. No badges, no pve, nothing.
And once you turn on the flag you can only turn it off again till you leave the zone.
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Here's a thought, keep the flagging to toggle between a PvE and PvP build, or when you enter a PvP zone in instantly toggles to your PvP build. Instead of coming in from a chopper, or in a street like sirens, you enter into a base like in RV for all zones. Add some type of terminal screen/hi-tech gadget in the bases which allows you to view other heroes in the zone, would be seeing things from their perspective. They would be safe inside their base, and there would be no PvE toggle in the zones. Just off the top of my head.