A Non-PVPer's Solution To PVP
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2008-01-25 14:21 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I have found that the people that use that excuse are the ones that would never take part in PvP under any circumstances. That's why it upsets me to see people continue to use that as a reason for not PvPing. It would just be easier to say, "I don't like PvP and won't do it for any reason." than to keep coming into these discussions and pull the trash talk card.
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I'd disagree because I'm one of those people who don't bother to think about PvP in this game because of the prevalence of sophomoric attitudes, that appears to be embraced by many. Have I PvP'd in City of Heroes/Villains? Sure I have. Tried out both the zone type and arena types, and found these attitudes to be a major turn-off for me in both area's.
When did I like PvP? When it was massive event type things, where people just didn't care. And the numbers involved quickly droned out the idiots. It was chaos, but it was fun. One event that was a riot (to me) was the 'Oompa Loompa' event on the test server one time, that involved making a low level character that looked like an Oompa Loompa (like lvl 3 max), a race to PI, then it was an all-out battle royal. That was fun. Same with the massive PvP events during the Beta tests of the games. You didn't see the trash talking and childish attitudes that you see in a PvP zone these days. People were there to have fun for the day/event, and that was it.
So don't discount that argument just because you might not think it's valid. There are a number of players who think along these lines, and we 'vote' our thoughts of PvP by avoiding the zones entirely. For the question to be thrown out as to why a person may not wish to enter that part of the game, then to discard their reasons as invalid, doesn't do too much to endear the PvP game to people like us.
I could give or take PvP, as I don't surround my gameplay around that single aspect of the game. When I saw the post by Ex a bit ago about it, it genuinely got my through process going of maybe contributing to it and maybe giving it more in-game time if a few things are made different. But then, I see threads like this one that pretty much leave me wishing PvP in this game would just drop off the face of the earth.
But, upon reflection of some of the more enjoyable times I had in the PvP world, I will say there were a few common themes. First, was that it was disposable. I hadn't invested lots of time or effort into creating the character, instead it was just for plain fun. Secondly, it was more even. The events typically let everyone 'jump' up to certain levels and play. Or, in the case of the Oompa Loompa event, the level restriction was so low, that no one had any sort of distinct advantage.
But overall, the main reason why I've stopped going to any of the PvP zones is the attitude. Sure, you can deny it all you want, but I know thats the reason why I (and others I play with) avoid it.
First, to date no "flagged" system that has ever been implemented worked well.
Second, the exploits associated with flagging in most of the implementations results in much more acrimony and problems for casual players interested in trying PvP.
Third, PvP'ers are no nicer or meaner than any other segment of the gaming population but they are more unavoidable if you go into a PvP zone.
Fourth, your experience of how the zones are populated or not is far from representative. Many/most PvP'ers (which were reasonably dispersed) have migrated to one of a couple servers. This has caused the zones on servers other than Freedom and Virtue to greatly drop in activity while on those servers (and to a degree Infinity) there is more PvP activity.
Thorizdin
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Old School Legends
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First, to date no "flagged" system that has ever been implemented worked well.
Second, the exploits associated with flagging in most of the implementations results in much more acrimony and problems for casual players interested in trying PvP.
Third, PvP'ers are no nicer or meaner than any other segment of the gaming population but they are more unavoidable if you go into a PvP zone.
Fourth, your experience of how the zones are populated or not is far from representative. Many/most PvP'ers (which were reasonably dispersed) have migrated to one of a couple servers. This has caused the zones on servers other than Freedom and Virtue to greatly drop in activity while on those servers (and to a degree Infinity) there is more PvP activity.
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Other games are not CoX, I've addressed the griefing complaints that have arrisen in this thread, player behavior in PVP is far more important since you must have someone else to play with you, and I play almost exclusively on Freedom with some time on the Test server.
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When did I like PvP? When it was massive event type things, where people just didn't care. And the numbers involved quickly droned out the idiots. It was chaos, but it was fun.
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This is kind of my point. Those times were fun not because the trash talk didn't exist, but because you were able to ignore it.
It's so easy to ignore or filter out the trash talk using the in game permisions, that it simply isn't a good argument for not doing it. It is probably the single biggest reason people raise in these discussions for avoiding PvP. It also is the single easiest thing to fix. The Devs have already provided the means to resolve that issue in game. There is nothing more they can do in that regard short of a zero tolerance policy on it with perma bans for offenses. Banning people from playing seems a bit counter productive, wouldn't you agree?
To bring it back on topic, how would adding PvP flagging reduce trash talk in broadcast, or make it less offensive? How would it have made your experience better?
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When did I like PvP? When it was massive event type things, where people just didn't care. And the numbers involved quickly droned out the idiots. It was chaos, but it was fun.
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This is kind of my point. Those times were fun not because the trash talk didn't exist, but because you were able to ignore it.
It's so easy to ignore or filter out the trash talk using the in game permisions, that it simply isn't a good argument for not doing it. It is probably the single biggest reason people raise in these discussions for avoiding PvP. It also is the single easiest thing to fix. The Devs have already provided the means to resolve that issue in game. There is nothing more they can do in that regard short of a zero tolerance policy on it with perma bans for offenses. Banning people from playing seems a bit counter productive, wouldn't you agree?
To bring it back on topic, how would adding PvP flagging reduce trash talk in broadcast, or make it less offensive? How would it have made your experience better?
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NO. Banning people for making racial comments and comments agains the EULA in ANY context, pvp or pve, is the perfect policy that should be enforced.
NO. Just cause you are pvping doesn't mean you get talk about some one's mom or some of the worse idiocy I've heard in places like Siren's call.
Back on topic, I think the flag in a PVP ZONE idea is a stupid idea.
You go there expecting pvp. You don't want pvp, don't enter the zone. Period.
I'd be against adding a pvp flag to a purely pve zone also.
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Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
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I still don't understand what the the big deal is about flags. Is it that folks are envisioning people toggling their flag on and off to attack people without being attacked?
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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I still don't understand what the the big deal is about flags. Is it that folks are envisioning people toggling their flag on and off to attack people without being attacked?
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I still don't understand what the big deal is about entering a pvp zone and expecting pvp.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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NO. Banning people for making racial comments and comments agains the EULA in ANY context, pvp or pve, is the perfect policy that should be enforced.
NO. Just cause you are pvping doesn't mean you get talk about some one's mom or some of the worse idiocy I've heard in places like Siren's call.
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Indeed.
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Back on topic, I think the flag in a PVP ZONE idea is a stupid idea.
You go there expecting pvp. You don't want pvp, don't enter the zone. Period.
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That's the current model under which CoX PVP is dying of anemia. Conceptually this is a facet of game-play that should be a nominal subscription draw.
Is your objection based on the desire not to encounter PVP even tangentially; to keep it separate and let it die off if it will? (Remember, this is a genial debate and "yes" is an acceptable answer.)
One lets previously non-PvPer get their feet wet with the idea, check out the zone, or ask questions and the other puts a big "Kill Me repeatedly the instant I make my presence known" on your forhead.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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I still don't understand what the the big deal is about flags. Is it that folks are envisioning people toggling their flag on and off to attack people without being attacked?
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That is only one of the many potential exploits that could occur if it were done incorrectly.
The fact is, the game already has a very effective form of flagging. If you enter a zone, you are flagged on. When you leave, you are flagged off.
My question is, why do we need another form of flagging on top of that that would be less effective, allow for exploits and would only exacerbate existing issues?
I wonder if all the PvE content were removed from the PvP zones, how many people would still go there for the pure desire to fight a living opponent.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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I wonder if all the PvE content were removed from the PvP zones, how many people would still go there for the pure desire to fight a living opponent.
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Probably most of them. That is something that a lot of PvPers have asked for since the zones opened. Getting rid of the NPCs would make most PvPers happy, and would reduce the RMT farmer population thus making PvErs happy. Seems like a win/win.
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I wonder if all the PvE content were removed from the PvP zones, how many people would still go there for the pure desire to fight a living opponent.
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I wouldn't PvP, and would eventually look for a different MMO that has a better PvP system. Even though PvP isn't the only thing to an MMO, a good MMO will have PvP. I have yet to see a good MMO without PvP. One that comes to mind is the D&D one, which I really tried to like, but just couldn't.
The system needs to be changed, and although that is an option, it is one I wouldn't want to see. Yes, PvE/PvP toggle could be exploitable, but not as much as it could be if implemented correctly. What I mean by that is making it so you can't toggle the flag anyplace else other than a contact inside your respective base.
I've stated this in some previous posts, and I still think the best solution would be to have both. Make the zones PvE/PvP, and add the merits, but also add to each zone a game where villians and heros can enter a mini game, and join a que. After an elapsed time, or when a maximum number of players is reached, everyone in the que zone into an instance, and participate in some mini game, whether it's capture the flag, king of the hill, hide n' seek, or whatever that has no PvE element to it. This wouldn't classify as a new zone because it's an instance. Everyone on the winning side receive merits, and the losing side receives merits, but less than the winners.
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I wonder if all the PvE content were removed from the PvP zones, how many people would still go there for the pure desire to fight a living opponent.
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Probably most of them. That is something that a lot of PvPers have asked for since the zones opened. Getting rid of the NPCs would make most PvPers happy, and would reduce the RMT farmer population thus making PvErs happy. Seems like a win/win.
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If all the PVE content were removed from the PVP zones I wonder how much development attention CoX PVP would ever see again.
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I still don't understand what the the big deal is about flags. Is it that folks are envisioning people toggling their flag on and off to attack people without being attacked?
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That is only one of the many potential exploits that could occur if it were done incorrectly.
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I had to spend a ridiculous amount of time fighting the "what about PVEers buffing AVs in RV huh?" meme so lets kill this one (again) right now: Can't happen, isn't alowed for in the original post, won't work 'cause it's already been thought of, no, no, no 
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If all the PVE content were removed from the PVP zones I wonder how much development attention CoX PVP would ever see again.
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So long as there's enough people interested in PVP, and from what i've seen there are, it will be on the dev radar. What would likely happen, as mentioned, is that the people found in those zones is almost guaranteed to want to fight other players.
Perhaps might be easier for the devs to add more PVP zones or features if they didn't have to think about balancing PVE elements with it.
The main reward of any significance that retains player interest in PVP is in the fun of fighting an intelligent opponent, if you're there fighting unwilling or uninterested opponents, then the challenge is not present and might as well just stick to fighting NPCs.
The devs already tried to entice all players to PVP by adding PVE elements into those zones and as expected, the common result is animosity between divergent personalities and preferences.
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So long as there's enough people interested in PVP, and from what i've seen there are, it will be on the dev radar.
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Please elaborate and cite your evidence for self-maintaining PVP subscription-draw.
This thread and many others like it, forums added for PVP, the contests/events that keeps getting posted and yes i've peeked once in a while in pvp zones, mostly in the top (or bottom now) 4 servers.
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This thread and many others like it, forums added for PVP, the contests/events that keeps getting posted and yes i've peeked once in a while in pvp zones, mostly in the top (or bottom now) 4 servers.
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You've missed the subtext of those things that they are reaction to a failing subcommunity, not attempts to wring more revenue from a thriving one.
Ex Libris has explicitly stated that PVP is a "nonperforming" CoX subcommunity. The reason Community Team attention was lavished on it was to try and rally player support when Developer resources were not available to address the problem (because of the problem itself). In her thread starting here she states that the efforts over the last six months have managed to increase activity, but only to the point where it roughly equals losses. With extreme effort PVP is now merely not-bleeding-to-death. It is far from a success story and an open question how long such efforts will remain before Community Team resources are shifted to another area that shows more promise of growth.
Denial that PVP is just fine in CoX is Whistling In The Dark.
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Denial that PVP is just fine in CoX is Whistling In The Dark.
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I never said PVP is fine, "interested in" and "enjoy playing" are different things. You wanted clarification why i think there are many people interested in PVP and i mentioned where i got that impression.
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I never said PVP is fine, "interested in" and "enjoy playing" are different things. You wanted clarification why i think there are many people interested in PVP and i mentioned where i got that impression.
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That's hairsplitting. Either PVP is earning its keep subscription wise and worth reinvesting revenue in or it's not.
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That's hairsplitting. Either PVP is earning its keep subscription wise and worth reinvesting revenue in or it's not.
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Not quite sure what you're getting at here. I don't have a dev quote but from what i can tell, the core of the game is PVE with PVP, crafting, market and other aspects as mini-games, by that i mean they give players options to diversify their CoX experience and as long as there is enough player interest in the other areas, the devs will be intested.
They seem to be all about giving players options.
I don't game the market and i don't PVP but my subscription is not at risk because of my lack of participation in those areas, doesn't mean the devs will stop work on them.
If you prefer to call it splitting hairs that's fine, but i believe having player interest but limited participation in an area means to me that the devs would want to work on it more. Whether or not something happens all depends on the complexity of the task and not so much on the devs lack of interest.
But we're veering off a bit now. The post that started this particular derailment was about a hypothetical situation you posted regarding a PVE-free PVP environment.
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Not quite sure what you're getting at here.
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I'll see if I can help you understand.
Ex Libris:
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I am disheartened lately as I get messages from members of the COH gaming community about issues and behaviors that are happening within the PVP community. Issues that are causing people to reconsider their involvement with our game. I don't see how this issue isn't an issue of the game being broken any more than the arena crashing. Previously with the arena issues, there was a feeling of instability, a feeling of not wanting to participate as it wasn't worth the effort. It wasn't fun.
So how do we "fix" this problem, because it is hurting your community and I cannot continue to allocate resources to a community that has an underlying "failure to thrive" issue. There are a dozen other "Mezzo" groups within this game and many of them have communities that foster growth.
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The statement is self explanitory and straight forward. Why bother taking PvP changes into consideration when there are other things in the Co* community that can create an income of players.
In a later thread,
Ex Libris:
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I am confronting the issue, that is the best way I know how to address an issue like this. I have a lot of great ideas that I would like to submit for improvements for PVP but in order for me to do so and be taken seriously, the community has to be viable.
To be considered viable in this industry it has to have a populous that is consistent. For each new person that comes to PVP in our game we lose people to PVP in our game either from natural flow, banning, or people that quit from griefing. It isn't as simple as "ban them all, let the individuals sort it out." This issue is affecting your community's viability.
The PVP community while it may appear to be getting new members is losing numbers at a similar rate, therefore the growth is not quantifiable.
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Again, it's self explanitory, and the inevitable outcome is obvious. If you were a developer, and you were losing people from your game due to PvP, what would you do?
Later, she continues
Ex Libris:
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People that continue to break the EULA will be removed from the game, perhaps not as quickly as some of you like but it will happen, but this removal along with the natural flow is causing the PVP Community to appear as though there is no new growth.
<...>
I have heard from you all as a community that COH/COV has the potential to be the best PVP experience in the MMO space, and you wonder why the developers don't allocate more resources. Most of that is because your community doesn't show significant enough numbers to warrant more resources.
What growth you do gain as a community is lost in the numbers you all lose in banned accounts and people that leave over grief issues. So the feedback loop continues to play out the same scene.
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She continues on, and you can look through the thread yourself, Here
It boils down to, why bother with the PvP community in Co* if it doesn't get any bigger and keeps losing the game players.
Now here's what you said
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from what i can tell, the core of the game is PVE with PVP
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Judging from what Ex is saying, they want to remove the PvP from the issue, so they don't lose players that they have gained through interest in the game, again, if you are a developer, and you are losing people from the game due to an issue (in this case PvP) cut it out, and you won't lose people anymore.
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I don't game the market and i don't PVP but my subscription is not at risk because of my lack of participation in those areas, doesn't mean the devs will stop work on them.
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Your subscription isn't the issue here. What HB is referring to is .................
Is the current PvP system that is in place earning its keep for people who use it for their $15 a month, and is it earning it's keep for the developers. Obviously, the answer is a no. Again I will state, if you are a developer, and you are losing people from the game due to an issue, get rid of that issue.
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If you prefer to call it splitting hairs that's fine
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I think when he said that it's hair splitting, he was referring to your comment that he quoted being hair splitting.
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but i believe having player interest but limited participation in an area means to me that the devs would want to work on it more
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Go through the comments I quoted from Ex, and go through the thread, and see if you still think the Dev's want to work on, or completly get rid of PvP.
To Ex Libris
I strongly feel that HB has some great points, and would enjoy many of his ideas for PvP. To the issue that the community has behavior problems when it comes to PvP, I totally agree, but with a flagging system properly made, I can see that issue go away. If a PvPer wants a PvEer or another PvPer to fight, I can't see the PvPer trying to taunt the person into fighting. At least not with the community we have now. It would more or less force people to have a kinder attitude. I particular like the idea of HB's bank missions in sirens call, and I think every zone should have a mini game where an instance is involved where there is no PvE, and make that the *warning no flag* area and have the toons PvE build present, and make the current PvP zones flagging. Another option would be to kill zone broadcast so heroes can never see villian chat, and villians can't see hero chat, but keep it allowed in local.
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I am confronting the issue, that is the best way I know how to address an issue like this. I have a lot of great ideas that I would like to submit for improvements for PVP but in order for me to do so and be taken seriously, the community has to be viable.
To be considered viable in this industry it has to have a populous that is consistent. For each new person that comes to PVP in our game we lose people to PVP in our game either from natural flow, banning, or people that quit from griefing. It isn't as simple as "ban them all, let the individuals sort it out." This issue is affecting your community's viability.
The PVP community while it may appear to be getting new members is losing numbers at a similar rate, therefore the growth is not quantifiable.
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This is the part of Ex Libris post that I wonder about. In a nutshell, PvP is losing roughly as many participants as it gains. The thing I'm curious about is how they determine who is a "PvPer" and who isn't. It would seem to me that zone PvP is too random to be an element to know for sure. I know that on Virtue we often have informal PvP events in various zones at which decidedly non-PvPers will participate for the chance at some good RP. Arena on test server would be a more stable means of determining PvP population, but from all indications, that segment has grown, contrary to what Ex has stated. I'm confused by it, frankly.
Based on the last several financial reports from NCSoft that have been posted on these forums, the total population of CoX has been fairly constant for the last couple of years. The population spikes with every update, and wanes between updates, but is fairly consistant. In a nutshell, they lose as many subscriptions as they gain.
I am curious if the attrition to the PvP segment of the game is roughly the same percentage in relation to the total subscription attrition. If so, that would not necessarily mean that PvP is in any worse a condition than any other segment of the population. It would only be a more noticable segment because it is one that was expected to show growth, and is a constant polarizing element in the game.
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If only people would learn to turn off broadcast in PvP then the issue wouldn't exist.
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This is a symptomatic solution based on the miscomprehension that those who avoid PVP for the "trash talk" are viscerally offended by the words themselves. The reason for citing "trash talk" is that they find the people voicing it not worth spending time with; let alone playing with.
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I have found that the people that use that excuse are the ones that would never take part in PvP under any circumstances. That's why it upsets me to see people continue to use that as a reason for not PvPing. It would just be easier to say, "I don't like PvP and won't do it for any reason." than to keep coming into these discussions and pull the trash talk card.
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Just because they can't hear it doesn't make the problem go away.
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Depends on what the problem is. If the issue really is the trash talk, well it does a pretty good job of making it go away. You ever hear a deaf person complaining about a song playing on the radio?
However, like I said, in general it isn't really the problem. It's just the easiest to admit to.
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*Not being forced to play with said individuals, on the other hand, would better address the irritation
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*But even flagged, they would still be playing in the same zone and since people still adamantly refuse to turn off their broadcast permissions in PvP, they are still subject to the trash talk. The trash talk would only get worse because now PvPers have to interact with non-flagged players to get them to PvP. Ideally, they would behave themselves and ask nicely, but I wouldn't hold my breath for that.
*edited to clarify the edit for... um clarity. Yeah.