A Non-PVPer's Solution To PVP
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2008-01-25 14:21 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
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I wouldn't have a problem if the rewards were solely for the risk of PvP, but they have the NPCs that must be dealt with as well, so does that make them PvP or PvE rewards?
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The rewards are PvP because PvP is the risk that is taken for getting them. The NPCs are the means by which the devs decided the rewards would be obtained.
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Okay, now ask yourself if this philosophy helps or hurts PVP playerbase-growth.
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I asked myself, but all I heard in response was muttering about lack of any developer focusing on PvP in the first place.
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I wouldn't have a problem if the rewards were solely for the risk of PvP, but they have the NPCs that must be dealt with as well, so does that make them PvP or PvE rewards?
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The rewards are PvP because PvP is the risk that is taken for getting them. The NPCs are the means by which the devs decided the rewards would be obtained.
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Okay, now ask yourself if this philosophy helps or hurts PVP playerbase-growth.
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I asked myself, but all I heard in response was muttering about lack of any developer focusing on PvP in the first place.
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Wow really? In a game that was touted for not having PvP, the Devs brought of the Arena. They were popular for about an hour (exaggeration), so instead of saying, "Ahh well it was a nice try" and just scrapping it, they came out with three entire PvP zones. I think the Devs truely want to support PvP, but this game was doing fine before it, they now want some justification for why the grass is greener now.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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I wouldn't have a problem if the rewards were solely for the risk of PvP, but they have the NPCs that must be dealt with as well, so does that make them PvP or PvE rewards?
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The rewards are PvP because PvP is the risk that is taken for getting them. The NPCs are the means by which the devs decided the rewards would be obtained.
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Okay, now ask yourself if this philosophy helps or hurts PVP playerbase-growth.
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I asked myself, but all I heard in response was muttering about lack of any developer focusing on PvP in the first place.
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Wow really? In a game that was touted for not having PvP, the Devs brought of the Arena. They were popular for about an hour (exaggeration), so instead of saying, "Ahh well it was a nice try" and just scrapping it, they came out with three entire PvP zones. I think the Devs truely want to support PvP, but this game was doing fine before it, they now want some justification for why the grass is greener now.
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I mean a "PvP Developer", as Castle is the "Powers guy". Get what I'm saying?
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I wouldn't have a problem if the rewards were solely for the risk of PvP, but they have the NPCs that must be dealt with as well, so does that make them PvP or PvE rewards?
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The rewards are PvP because PvP is the risk that is taken for getting them. The NPCs are the means by which the devs decided the rewards would be obtained.
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Okay, now ask yourself if this philosophy helps or hurts PVP playerbase-growth.
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I asked myself, but all I heard in response was muttering about lack of any developer focusing on PvP in the first place.
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Wow really? In a game that was touted for not having PvP, the Devs brought of the Arena. They were popular for about an hour (exaggeration), so instead of saying, "Ahh well it was a nice try" and just scrapping it, they came out with three entire PvP zones. I think the Devs truely want to support PvP, but this game was doing fine before it, they now want some justification for why the grass is greener now.
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I mean a "PvP Developer", as Castle is the "Powers guy". Get what I'm saying?
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Sure, a dedicated person to develope PvP and promote more players to actively participate. I think there's a idea around here that would be perfect for someone like that to start with. Human Being, do you know where it is?
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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Okay, now ask yourself if this philosophy helps or hurts PVP playerbase-growth.
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Both I think.
The is no question that the rewards are usefull and desired by players. This in turn has increased the overall population in the PvP zones. However, I wouldn't say that it has increased participation in PvP in any noticable way. At least not in a voluntary way. Not in a good way. I have no doubt that there are some people that have given PvP a try because of the extra PvE content, but mostly it just gives PvPers something to do when the action is slow.
Overall, I would say that the philosophy of putting PvE in the PvP zones, as a means of encouraging non-PvPers to participate, has failed miserably. It has only served to polarize the two sides even further. The people that have absolutely no interest in PvP feel that they are getting robbed of content and rewards. Of the people that like PvP, one of the greatest complaints heard in the zones is that of getting debt from the NPCs in the zones. Certain powers will amount to almost certain death from NPCs if used against a player that is anywhere near them in a zone, thus limiting the pool of available usefull powers. Nobody wants that.
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Sure, a dedicated person to develope PvP and promote more players to actively participate. I think there's a idea around here that would be perfect for someone like that to start with. Human Being, do you know where it is?
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I know a great one that has been in the works for a long time.
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I was thinking about issues with the "PvP alternate build" and I was thinking instead of giving the data base a hemerage with double the number of needed information what if you could canibilize one of your empty slots and reserver it as one of your characters' PvP build slots. This way you can use all the data space a normal character would have and this will cover an entire PvP build. With all that extra data you could also have a set of PvP Mode costumes and you could have a PvP Mode bio if you wanted.
Then this got me to thinking what if you could copy down to your PvP build? This would mean PvP mode would almost just be like a test server toon. Then the only things that could be transferred to your PvE toon from your PvP toon are things bought with PvP Credits. This might have dupin' rares issues but that would only be on PvP builds, which would make the hardcore PvPers happy so they wouldn't have to go to test for all thier PvP fun.
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Overall, I would say that the philosophy of putting PvE in the PvP zones, as a means of encouraging non-PvPers to participate, has failed miserably. It has only served to polarize the two sides even further.
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Though some of these features are more problematic than others. The Siren's Call time badge being a requirement for a villain accolade being the most vexing of them all. Stuff like that might as well have been designed specifically to fill everyone involved with homicidal rage.
@Mindshadow
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Sure, a dedicated person to develope PvP and promote more players to actively participate. I think there's a idea around here that would be perfect for someone like that to start with. Human Being, do you know where it is?
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I know a great one that has been in the works for a long time.
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Seems HB's idea is in some ways an extention of that, while making PvP more inviting to folks who are on the fence.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
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Sure, a dedicated person to develope PvP and promote more players to actively participate. I think there's a idea around here that would be perfect for someone like that to start with. Human Being, do you know where it is?
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I know a great one that has been in the works for a long time.
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Putz has definately put a lot of effort and time into writing and discussing all the things in PvP that must be fixed.
Great choice, IMO.
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I asked myself, but all I heard in response was muttering about lack of any developer focusing on PvP in the first place.
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I mean a "PvP Developer", as Castle is the "Powers guy". Get what I'm saying?
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Sure, a dedicated person to develope PvP and promote more players to actively participate. I think there's a idea around here that would be perfect for someone like that to start with. Human Being, do you know where it is?
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At this point, circa the Aspirin bottle.
Lets try this: I'm an NCSoft executive working up the resource budget for CoX. Lots of new hires are being brought in to expand the game and its profitability. Someone drops a proposal to hire, salary, train, and provide with benefits a "dedicated PVP guy" for this game on my desk.
From a business standpoint, why on earth would I want to do that?
I like the idea of the Camera bot. I believe it could be implimented AS the PVP flag. You can talk to the liason outside the zone and load in with a "Camera Bot". To Un-Camera-Bot, you click the "Exit" button at the top of the screen (Like a mission complete Exit button.)
While in Bot mode, you have the same restrictions as an arena bot.
The basic "Flag Timer" problem is taken care of, as to "Flag", you basically have to zone twice, and to un-flag, same thing.
You can't spell Slaughter without laughter
All your gonna do is just farm behemoths anyways.
My thoughts on November 30.
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I like the idea of the Camera bot. I believe it could be implimented AS the PVP flag. You can talk to the liason outside the zone and load in with a "Camera Bot". To Un-Camera-Bot, you click the "Exit" button at the top of the screen (Like a mission complete Exit button.)
While in Bot mode, you have the same restrictions as an arena bot.
The basic "Flag Timer" problem is taken care of, as to "Flag", you basically have to zone twice, and to un-flag, same thing.
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I like it. You can view pvp but can't get the pve rewards in zone with no risk. I have no objection to this.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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From a business standpoint, why on earth would I want to do that?
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Because NCSoft understands better than Cryptic ever did the importance of PvP in the MMO market.
Because they can easily see that the overall population of CoX is about as high as it is going to get with the current arrangment, and if they want to see any significant growth they will have to make some changes to the game. PvE content has been added consistantly, but has not generated growth. PvP is the one area of the game that has not recieved any significant developer attention since issue 7, and therefore is worth the effort to improve if it could be used to lure new players in and generate growth.
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From a business standpoint, why on earth would I want to do that?
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Because NCSoft understands better than Cryptic ever did the importance of PvP in the MMO market.
Because they can easily see that the overall population of CoX is about as high as it is going to get with the current arrangment, and if they want to see any significant growth they will have to make some changes to the game. PvE content has been added consistantly, but has not generated growth. PvP is the one area of the game that has not recieved any significant developer attention since issue 7, and therefore is worth the effort to improve if it could be used to lure new players in and generate growth, IF DONE CORRECTLY.
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fixed.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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I don't PVP. At all. But I spend a lot of time in PVP zones for various reasons.
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I've watched PvP get debated on these forums ever since my very first day here (check the registration date, eh?). In all that time, this is the first suggestion anyone has ever made that I feel confident I could support 100%.
This is the way it should have been done right from the beginning!
(And yes, I read both posts from beginning to end. Excellent anaylsis and recommendations!)
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AE Story Arc #536752: Torn Asunder
An army from far, far away has been driven from their homeland and landed on Earth. They desperately need a new home and they're liking the look of ours.
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Flagging
[...] Consider if one first had to speak to the zone mission-contact and click "switch to PVP mode" in the menu; only then having the 30 second timer begin. This would have an immediate salutary effect on zone behavior since players can choose not to become a target and if someone wants to play with them they will have to entice them. Potential new players also have freedom to explore the zone, ask questions, and make observations without constantly looking over their shoulder or falling prey to outclassing bullies seeking easy "rep" points.
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In practice: the PVP-mode would remain off when one entered a PVP zone.
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Red flag. Despite the other good points you made in your obviously thoroughly-thought-out post ... Standardised response commencing:
[u]#3: PvP-OFF flags for PvP zones[u]
Once again: this is an unbelievably STUPID idea.
But once again, to rebutt at greater length: while I have spent most of this post trying to keep PvP out of my PvE ... I must, in all fairness, point out that the PvPers should not have their little corners of our world watered down in any way. There is absolutely nothing in any PvP zone that you MUST have (inane villain Accolade requirements included, much to my own dismay).
When you enter a PvP zone, you consent to be attacked by other players. The big sign out front, the obnoxiously-loud klaxon sound, the big-red-number countdown ... if these don't manage to clue you in, then to be perfectly honest, and perhaps rudely blunt: IMO you're too stupid to breathe ... so please, stop.
Leave the PvP out of our PvE, indeed - but don't try and take the PvP away from the PvPers, either; fair's fair, after all.
Thus, a third time: NO, THANK YOU.
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You're turning into a broken record, Pax. His idea is valid because it is an integral of a much larger system. Yes, implementing a flag system by itself would be unbelievable stupid and would worsen an already bad situation. That, however, is not what he's suggesting.
================================================== ===
AE Story Arc #536752: Torn Asunder
An army from far, far away has been driven from their homeland and landed on Earth. They desperately need a new home and they're liking the look of ours.
================================================== ===
Don't bother, Pax is against anything that would shake his precious status quo.
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Now think about this for a moment if you will. You've got an empath, who uses their PvE build for PvP. They will not turn on pvp mode, but will actively heal, and buff people who are pvping, while they just get to stand, unharmed by all.
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Maybe somebody else has pointed this out, but if the PvP/PvE SwapBuildFlag is properly implemented, a PvE Empath will be unable to target and thus buff either an enemy NPC or a player flagged for PvP.
It's been done many times before in many other games. It's a rudimentary algorithm nowadays.
================================================== ===
AE Story Arc #536752: Torn Asunder
An army from far, far away has been driven from their homeland and landed on Earth. They desperately need a new home and they're liking the look of ours.
================================================== ===
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Now think about this for a moment if you will. You've got an empath, who uses their PvE build for PvP. They will not turn on pvp mode, but will actively heal, and buff people who are pvping, while they just get to stand, unharmed by all.
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Maybe somebody else has pointed this out, but if the PvP/PvE SwapBuildFlag is properly implemented, a PvE Empath will be unable to target and thus buff either an enemy NPC or a player flagged for PvP.
It's been done many times before in many other games. It's a rudimentary algorithm nowadays.
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I'd rather they just implemented an observer mode like in the arena. You can view the battle and learn a lot about tatics in the zone, but can't interact in anyway. Bascially no pressure at all while seeing what pvp is like. Problem solved.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
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Flagging
[...] Consider if one first had to speak to the zone mission-contact and click "switch to PVP mode" in the menu; only then having the 30 second timer begin. This would have an immediate salutary effect on zone behavior since players can choose not to become a target and if someone wants to play with them they will have to entice them. Potential new players also have freedom to explore the zone, ask questions, and make observations without constantly looking over their shoulder or falling prey to outclassing bullies seeking easy "rep" points.
[...]
In practice: the PVP-mode would remain off when one entered a PVP zone.
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Red flag. Despite the other good points you made in your obviously thoroughly-thought-out post ... Standardised response commencing:
[u]#3: PvP-OFF flags for PvP zones[u]
Once again: this is an unbelievably STUPID idea.
But once again, to rebutt at greater length: while I have spent most of this post trying to keep PvP out of my PvE ... I must, in all fairness, point out that the PvPers should not have their little corners of our world watered down in any way. There is absolutely nothing in any PvP zone that you MUST have (inane villain Accolade requirements included, much to my own dismay).
When you enter a PvP zone, you consent to be attacked by other players. The big sign out front, the obnoxiously-loud klaxon sound, the big-red-number countdown ... if these don't manage to clue you in, then to be perfectly honest, and perhaps rudely blunt: IMO you're too stupid to breathe ... so please, stop.
Leave the PvP out of our PvE, indeed - but don't try and take the PvP away from the PvPers, either; fair's fair, after all.
Thus, a third time: NO, THANK YOU.
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You're turning into a broken record, Pax. His idea is valid because it is an integral of a much larger system. Yes, implementing a flag system by itself would be unbelievable stupid and would worsen an already bad situation. That, however, is not what he's suggesting.
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Pax didn't read his post, and his post was a copy paste job he uses to critize anyone who suggests changing pvp.
That post that you are refering to (pax's post) doesn't deserve the effort to be read.
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I'd rather they just implemented an observer mode like in the arena. You can view the battle and learn a lot about tatics in the zone, but can't interact in anyway. Bascially no pressure at all while seeing what pvp is like. Problem solved.
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No pressure....and no appeal either. PVP isn't available for people to casually pick up or not at their whim. It's viewable through a porthole and still screams "stay out of my PVP zone you PVE-loving newb".
This sounds more like a thinly veiled solution for PVPers to not have to deal with PVEers than something that will expand the appeal of PVP to the general population.
Furthermore, this does nothing to change the climate of play in the zones. It would serve as a risk-less window into an area where people are behaving pettily and showing no sportsmanship.
An observer camera would be a PVP repellant, not a PVP draw.
...Granted though that this has more of sugar coating of rationale for 'PVEer Go Home' than "just take the PVE elements out of the zones entirely" does 
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From a business standpoint, why on earth would I want to do that?
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Because NCSoft understands better than Cryptic ever did the importance of PvP in the MMO market.
Because they can easily see that the overall population of CoX is about as high as it is going to get with the current arrangment, and if they want to see any significant growth they will have to make some changes to the game. PvE content has been added consistantly, but has not generated growth. PvP is the one area of the game that has not recieved any significant developer attention since issue 7, and therefore is worth the effort to improve if it could be used to lure new players in and generate growth.
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You're not selling me so far.
PVE elements are regular subscription holders. Adding new play elements at minimum pay for themselves and with the re-investment stand a good chance of expanding the playerbase through new subscribers and returnees who find something they like (or just the disappearance of something they didn't like).
PVP on the other hand is a subscription loser unless the Community Team is directed to focus on it and then only barely breaks even. It's an open question whether the Community Team might get better results switching the focus of their attention elsewhere in the near future. Nor is "PVP" something that you just add like power windows on a car. CoX is not Lineage or Guild Wars. It has a separate culture and appeals to a different sort of player. Indeed, many of the CoX players came to this particular game to avoid games of those sort. Attempting to continue to 'bolt on' extra PVP elements to create a 'City of Guild Wars' would at minimum expand the schizm in the game between PVP and PVE as things are currently implemented. At worst it could drive bread-winning PVE subscribers away as they experience more of the present ills and fear NCSoft intends to convert the game over to even greater PVP play like their other games (see: "CoX will be abandoned when MUO comes out" fears).
Even if 'The Company' understands PVP very well, it also understands CoX is a unique animal with its own requirments. (Just like all the other games.)
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Maybe somebody else has pointed this out, but if the PvP/PvE SwapBuildFlag is properly implemented, a PvE Empath will be unable to target and thus buff either an enemy NPC or a player flagged for PvP.
It's been done many times before in many other games. It's a rudimentary algorithm nowadays.
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This looks like a good point to refer back to my recap post for what zone play-experience should be like under these suggestions from a few pages ago. It's also worth it to read ICF_Zombra's follow-on discussion after that too.
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I wouldn't have a problem if the rewards were solely for the risk of PvP, but they have the NPCs that must be dealt with as well, so does that make them PvP or PvE rewards?
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The rewards are PvP because PvP is the risk that is taken for getting them. The NPCs are the means by which the devs decided the rewards would be obtained.
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Okay, now ask yourself if this philosophy helps or hurts PVP playerbase-growth.
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I think it gives players who are interested in PvP an extra reason to go into the PvP zones, rather than sticking to arenas. They have additional things to do when they can't find other players in the zones. So that's a help.