A Non-PVPer's Solution To PVP
By
Acanous_Quietus,
Posted on: 2008-01-25 14:21 in CoH and CoV General Discussions
I've read that post, and most of what she said in that thread appears to be more in line with people not respecting others in game or the forums relating to PVP as noted from the mentioning of terms like greifing, breaking EULA, banning. Sounds more like a call for civility more than a failure of a game mechanic as well as getting "constructive" feedback for PVP as opposed to flame fests that apparently follows it unlike other subgroups such as base construction.
Again, i'm not saying there's nothing wrong with PVP mechanics but that Ex Libris post was more a call for order and respect among players. It was directed towards the PVP side of the game only because the strife appears to be found more commonly there than in other sections.
I'll reread it again a bit later in case current feelings are leaving me a bit bias, but so far that's what i'm getting from most of what you quoted.
EDIT:
[ QUOTE ]
Your subscription isn't the issue here. What HB is referring to is .................
Is the current PvP system that is in place earning its keep for people who use it for their $15 a month, and is it earning it's keep for the developers. Obviously, the answer is a no. Again I will state, if you are a developer, and you are losing people from the game due to an issue, get rid of that issue.
[/ QUOTE ]
But i contend that the "issue" or at least the main one in regards to Ex's post is a failure on the player side not respecting each other than the game side turning people off.
If i don't like one aspect of gameplay of CoX that's not enough to quit the entire game. However, if for instance, while participating in the parts i do like i end up getting berated, chided and belittled by, let's say a good portion of the players i need to interact with, then yes that would make me want to find other ways to spend my leisure time.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I am confronting the issue, that is the best way I know how to address an issue like this. I have a lot of great ideas that I would like to submit for improvements for PVP but in order for me to do so and be taken seriously, the community has to be viable.
To be considered viable in this industry it has to have a populous that is consistent. For each new person that comes to PVP in our game we lose people to PVP in our game either from natural flow, banning, or people that quit from griefing. It isn't as simple as "ban them all, let the individuals sort it out." This issue is affecting your community's viability.
The PVP community while it may appear to be getting new members is losing numbers at a similar rate, therefore the growth is not quantifiable.
[/ QUOTE ]
This is the part of Ex Libris post that I wonder about. In a nutshell, PvP is losing roughly as many participants as it gains. The thing I'm curious about is how they determine who is a "PvPer" and who isn't. It would seem to me that zone PvP is too random to be an element to know for sure. I know that on Virtue we often have informal PvP events in various zones at which decidedly non-PvPers will participate for the chance at some good RP. Arena on test server would be a more stable means of determining PvP population, but from all indications, that segment has grown, contrary to what Ex has stated. I'm confused by it, frankly.
Based on the last several financial reports from NCSoft that have been posted on these forums, the total population of CoX has been fairly constant for the last couple of years. The population spikes with every update, and wanes between updates, but is fairly consistant. In a nutshell, they lose as many subscriptions as they gain.
I am curious if the attrition to the PvP segment of the game is roughly the same percentage in relation to the total subscription attrition. If so, that would not necessarily mean that PvP is in any worse a condition than any other segment of the population. It would only be a more noticable segment because it is one that was expected to show growth, and is a constant polarizing element in the game.
[/ QUOTE ]
Those financial reports you speak of showing an apparent similiar approx influx and exodus in subscriptions fails to take into account that they would, imho, have been markedly higher by now had ED* and GDN* not been implemented - a quick scan of the forum posts during that time and a closer look at the time frame involved show the drop. Whereas pvp has always been on the low end.
Personally i doubt the resources needed to make pvp a fun aspect of teh game will be put in adequately, and if so, it will take years imo to see the changes and realize a subscription "profit". Hard choices either way really....
*And no im not going to get drawn into a discussion of whether it was necessary or needed or what have you.
*nerf* Darn! Oh well.. I will just have to rebuild. Ah.. this works *nerf*
Darn it.. well I will rebuild again.. oh this might *nerf*
Grr.. this is getting annoying.. rebuild agai- *nerf*
I wasn't even finished rebuilding the las- *nerf* But.. *nerf* I *nerf* ......*nerf* *nerf* *nerf*
[ QUOTE ]
Personally i doubt the resources needed to make pvp a fun aspect of teh game will be put in adequately, and if so, it will take years imo to see the changes and realize a subscription "profit". Hard choices either way really....
[/ QUOTE ]
That's kind of how I feel. As long as PvP has been in the game, I really doubt that there are very many people still on the fence about it. By this time almost anybody that has had a subscription for longer than three months has most likely tried it once or twice and made up their mind about whether they like it or not. If they like it, they come back for more. If they don't, they probably won't come back to it regardless of any changes that are made.
The only way I see new growth coming to PvP is to target new subscriptions. That requires more commitment from NCSoft in regards to marketing than actually game changes. And by that I mean more than just mentioning PvP on the back of the box.
The first change I would make is to smooth out the learning curve so that new players can jump in without getting worked over. Perhaps a tutorial of some sort that works similar to the inventions tutorial. Also, since the devs have balanced for teams, they need to make teaming even easier in zones. Pehaps a mechanic when entering a PvP zone that would put up an option to be automatically teamed with others in the zone that also chose that option. It wouldn't be required, but would be very helpful to new PvPers to learn the ropes.
I think one of the biggest things they could do to improve zone PvP would be to have more GM presence in the zones to keep the trash talk under control. Somebody starts throwing out insults? Guess what, they just bought themselves a 15 minute timeout and are ported out of the zone and won't be able to reenter till the time is up. I gaurantee that would keep the trash talk to a minimum a lot better than any flagging system ever could.
[ QUOTE ]
You go there expecting pvp. You don't want pvp, don't enter the zone. Period.
[/ QUOTE ]
We are all entitled to opinions. Even you. Still, they are just opinions.
I thought of something else that might not have been mentioned yet and that could stand another look at.
/hide in pvp zones.
It's not a huge problem, (I might be wrong on that count) but it's definately an annoying one. Sometimes dedicated or 'hardcore' pvp'ers will set themselves on /hide just so that they are not listed in a pvp zone when someone tries using /whoall to get an idea of how many people are in a zone.
Of course some people might be using /hide as a method of reducing random team or supergroup invitation spams. It's not only the pvp'ers that do it.
It's just something that I've found niggling at me once in a while.
Eastern Standard Time (Australia)
is 15 hours ahead of
Eastern Standard Time (North America)
which is 5 hours behind
Greenwich Mean Time (GMT)
This is... a lot of text.
I've skimmed through at times (mmostly at work) and had thoughts here and there, but... well, it's a *lot* of text now! So if some of what I say has been said before, bear with me.
First - I'm just not fond of flagging systems. Yes, I'm firmly in the "You have a flag, it's called "entering the zone"" camp. But, that's me. Some of the other ideas are interesting.
I don't think putting more PVE goodies in the PVP zones are a solution, personally. There's already enough friction because of them. I don't believe they should be *removed,* either, as they're fun - but I don't think there should be more. (And when it comes to villain accolades, they should be reworked to give something equivalent-but-PVE.)
Some things can be fixed. I'm looking solidly at the Arena interface here. It's *not* intuitive - it took me a while to figure out why a duel I was trying to set up, the first time, kept failing.... because it was on "Custom," the default, and the setting that, to me, made sense since I was customizing preferences.
Some things... can't. There are jerks everywhere in the game and people thinking everyone should play by *their* rules (SS Brute telling my flying Kin?Dark to "come down and fight fair" - IE, stand still and get hit. No.)
And some things are a matter of recovery. Anyone whose experience with PVP was early-zone, Villainside, may still have a lingering "it's not worth it" feeling from having open-air rez tubes and no timer. I know that I nearly was turned off of it completely because I was not being allowed to *leave* the zone by a set of lvl 50 heroes (on my, at the time, lvl 15 brute. Don't forget, the zone liason was inside the zone at that time.)
I'll have to post when I have more time, being at work (between calls) right now, assuming this isn't lost in the flood of posts... but not everything can be fixed with code.
*waits for the full post*
[ QUOTE ]
I thought of something else that might not have been mentioned yet and that could stand another look at.
/hide in pvp zones.
[/ QUOTE ]
It's actually an important point and one I thought of while drafting the Original Post. Stalkers using /hide to effectively say "I'm not playing" instead of "I'm here but you can't see me" has been complained about before. When thinking over coding changes that were necessary though, I came to the conclusion that the effort to change it outweighed the minor benefit that could be had.
If anyone else had a more weighty rationale for preventing that behavior the calculation would be different.
Heh.
All I can say is this *will* be a collection of random thoughts, most likely. Bear with me. (Large one. Like a Grizzly.)
First, as I think we can all agree, no matter *what* is proposed as a "fix" is going to come from one specific viewpoint. Heck, what's seen as any specific "problem," AT bugs not withstanding, are going to be seen as a problem, or not, depending on who's reading it.
For instance...
"PVP has no point, no reward."
Well, street basketball doesn't, either. Once the game is over, what's changed other than the need to throw soem clothes in the laundry? Art doesn't. I don't mean commercial advertisements, or illustration for presentation, but someone just painting, oh, a landscape... for anything but their own pleasure. Not everyone needs a carrot dangling in front of them, a "Do X for Y reward." Sometimes the activity IS its own reward, after all, and for many, that - not some power, not points toward an IO, not a ladder ranking or rep or whatnot - is all that's required.
The activity itself is reward.
Does this mean rewards should be removed? Not in the slightest. I'm not honestly sure *reworking* them needs to be done, either - again barring, as mentioned before, villain accolades. That's the one, glaring example of "needing" to be in a PVP zone for PVE. (Yes, I know, accolades aren't needed to finish the game, but villainside is the only side in which someone must be exposed to an environment they may strongly dislike - PVP - that heroside does not.)
Yet, the activity itself has its own expectations. One of the most often broadcast complaints is that something "wasn't fair." Well, the most blunt reply is that life isn't fair... the most honest one is that everyone's definition of fair is different.
For instance, going with some of my own experiences:
Kin/Dark defender vs Brute. My defender wasn't doing a heck of a lot of damage, mostly using the brute for a speed boost. And there's no way in heck I was going to come down into melee range (I don't recall if he had SJ or SS, regardless I could stay out of range.) What wasn't "fair" there? Well, that I was... out of range. Some people, for some reason that absolutely escapes me, expect PVP to be a game of Rock 'em Sock 'em Robots. Nobody moves, you just stand toe to toe and beat on each other.
Why would any non-Brute, non-Tank, non-Scrapper bother coming in then? "Fair" was, to the Brute, coming down and standing still - the exact thing that would kill my Defender. "Fair" to me was, and I told him this, "Doing everything in your power to kill me while trying to stay alive." Now, yes, this excludes things like TPing into geometry - things defined as "Not allowed" by the developers. Yet anything else goes.
Ice/Dark (I think...) Corruptor vs Blaster of some sort. Huge level difference, even in BB (18 vs 50.) No stamina, half the insp slots - yet the 50 (not me) complained I was using inspirations (blues, of course.) "Um... duh." I have yet to *understand* that definition of fair, other than, again, "Quit lessening my overwhelming advantage." Yeah, I got killed. *shrug* It's PVP. I laughed.
EA brute vs two (!!) mind 'trollers, absolutely PVP specced, high acc and recharge... having three lines of holds plus TK stacked on me made my brute completely, totally helpless. Is this "fair?" No, no complaints from me - they built for it and won fairLY, yes, but it's a situation that I think most on the receiving end would call "not fun."
How do you balance that? How do you design around those sorts of situations?
For an open PVP zone... you can't. That's really all there is to it. In this game, short of restricting PVP to like powersets... you're not going to have 1v1 balance. I can accept this. Many regular PVPers can (and learn to work around it - surprise can work wonders.) Yet many *casual* players can't, and... I have to be honest... won't. For whatever reason, they're stuck in the "I am powerful, you are not" PVE mindset, where one hero = 3 (or more) minions. When faced with another player who ignores taunt, TPs them out of their caltrop patch, etc.... "it's not fair."
Ahh... bt arena! Well, no.... Even the (great fun, everyone should try it) level 4 PVP games that go on at times are, honestly, *sorely* imbalanced. No travel powers, no pool powers, no Stalkers or Khelds... and there's still strong performance differences in sets. Debuffing already lacking accuracy is painful. Holds can be *devestating,* and much faster than in zone.
The first thing that has to be accepted by the player community - not just accepted, but understood is that PVP is not fair, and it is not balanced. It cannot be in this game. It never WILL be, and yes, this comes from someone who plays decidedly... non FOTM characters.
No PVP switch is going to change that. No PVP/PVE build switch is going to change that - though the idea itself does have appeal. I'll admit to that - and to having a foot in the "Greater power demands sacrifice in your build" camp... if you want to PVE, you're losing some PVP effectiveness. PVP can force you into choices you wouldn't make for PVE... and that, to me, is not a problem.
This segues into... how can I phrase it... community. Zone friendliness. The reputation of PVPers.
You cannot code around this. Unfortunately, the few real jerks give everything a bad name.
You can also not code something that will be universally appealing. Some people want nothing to do with PVP. *shrug* Assuming anything is going to draw massive amounts of people so that the heavens open up and smile upon CO* PVP is... misleading. Anything new will draw some people, yes... the badgers (who will cuss out the PVPers for daring to attack them as they get badges,) the people who have to go there to see the liason and then, for whate'er reason, believe they are "forced" inside... and then, three months later, the numbers are down, and the PVPers are even more spread out, looking for a fight, or ignoring the new zone.
... so what can be done, not just to *draw* people, but the bigger challenge... to retain them afterward?
Let me digress here for a moment. It's a related point, trust me.
Way back, before the Dark Times, before.. the Forum Purge (well, one of them,) I made a post. Now, there's nothing new in this, I've made over NINE THOUUUSAANND... er... sorry... I've made many posts. Yet this, I made after my first experience in PVP. COV was new. There was no rez timer, the liasons were inside the PVP zones, there was no roof over the villain rez rings, things were.. much different.
My Brute (coincidentally, the one that became my first 50) had just turned 15, and was sent into the zone. Oh, the slaughter - if there were blood in this game, BB would truly have lived up to its name. The heroes fought, the villains fought, back and forth for hours. We had *fun.*
Then, one group came in. This was my first (but most assuredly not *last*) experience of the Hero Huddle. The lowest was in their high 30s, the highest, several of them, 50. Yes, I know, "We're all exemped or SKd," but TOs and DOs don't give much advantage at level 15. This group drove villains out. This group *refused to let me leave.* Remember, no timer. No rez ring hospital. Far fewer drones (they could phase and stand at the rings.) Assist Targeting was still in. Even when being *told* I wanted to leave... TP, kill, rez, TP, kill.
That led to my post, and my decision - at the time - to never set foot in a PVP zone again. Do my "see contact" mission and leave. (I don't believe mission dropping was in at that time.) After telling the PVP community (at the time) that this would drive people away for good, I left after saying my piece.
Yet in the time after, I realized something. I had been having *fun.* Win or lose, I was laughing, "GF" and "LOL"ing at hero and villain, and having a blast. For me, that memory brought me back. And I decided, as I played in there more, to do what I cold to offset the jerks and idiots - thus, my Stalkers actually helping controllers/defenders get shivans (and giving them tips, even if some were a teasing "oh, and look out for Stalkers.") And writing things like the PVEers guide to PVP (both versions.)
Many people would, and do, stop right where I nearly did - "I'm not putting up with these people," any good experience ruined. I hear it from my friends and SG mates, too, even when I know, and try to tell, them it's not like that most of the time. But experiences like that - or a lower tolerance for "trash talking," even if it's just little, clean jibes back and forth ("Come out and plaaaay.... we have cake!" was fun a week ago,) all can be taken differently by different people.
The appeal of PVP, the zones and arena, isn't going to be just - or even primarily - in what technology can bring. Yes, the arena interface needs work. Yes, creating dueling rules in zone might work well. New arena maps and zone goals will give new things to try... but the real, retaining appeal of PVP has to come from something you cannot program. The PVPers themselves. And I'll tell you, first hand, many - most - are absolutely great, in my experience. But somehow, we've let the jerks overshadow that.
So...
How do we fix that?
... continued, yes.
As for what *can* be programmed and addressed with technology and NCSoft's resources...
The first thing to do is pick something and concentrate on it, both from the programming and the community side.
For me, this screams "Start where we started already. Start with the Arena."
Gut the interface. Rework it to be far more user friendly and intuitive.
Gut the help system and "tutorial." Start from the ground up so people understand what they're doing.
With the finer control allowed in the arena, more types of games and maps can be made. Capture the Flag, while we have (in a sense) this going in SC and RV, makes far more sense in Arena. To borrow another type from Myth and the Bungie that Was, "Kill the Guy with the Ball" would work too. King of the Hill, and many other types that have been suggested, should without a doubt debut in the arena.
Along with those... new maps. And new selection types for the maps. I am, without reservation, against picking any specific map - but what I'd love to see is picking a map *type.* Going against a flyer, you may think you have an advantage picking "Office" as a map type... until you see it's a two or three story building with catwalks and other room to maneuver. The flyer may think they have an advantage picking "Outdoor/Park," until they find themselves stuck in the Perez maze... Limited randomness can throw a fun (or, yes, anoying 
) wrench into the works and keep people on their toes.
NCSoft-created - or at least publicised - events, quarterly, would help. Heck, find a group - similar to the Taxibots - who will take it on themselves to host a monthly training schedule, a lower-pressure "Welcome to PVP," is a good idea. Some SGs do similar things already (see also level 4 PVP, as well,) but many keep it within their ranks. I don't think NCSoft should be the ones doing the training - I don't think t'd be good use of resources - but showing the support in a visible way would be good.
Now, I mentioned keeping others who wouldn't PVP normally around...
The arena can be a great resource. Open it up for PVE as well. Want to try out a build? Arena-spec a temporary (non-INF, and certainly non-permanent!) build before you respec. We have Ouroboros to fight older enemies... but how about a "training" (or, as i recall, referred to as "Danger") room if you're having trouble against certain types? Heck, use the arena interface to show demorecords... if at all possible.
Make the terminals more accessible while making them more user friendly - put them in the SG bases. Put them in Atlas, Galaxy, Mercy, Cap... Put them in the PVP zones - without a bounty/point cost for using them.
And make sure the arena's so stable that nobody believes, in six months, that it *ever* crashed.
Once you have people using this for PVE... they may see some of the PVP events. Or PVP training. And they'll be familiar with the interface, and what to expect (somewhat) going in. And it may be enough to kindle the interest of a few fence sitters... who may bring a few more. The training groups and those int he community helping out here should, in general, be the ones giving a better impression of PVPers as well... of that, honestly, I have no doubt.
After that?
.... well, then we look at the zones. Yes, geometry holes and exploits should be fixed on the way. But use the Arena system to make people comfortable, first.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You go there expecting pvp. You don't want pvp, don't enter the zone. Period.
[/ QUOTE ]
We are all entitled to opinions. Even you. Still, they are just opinions.
[/ QUOTE ]
Umm, no that's the way the zone is built. Hence the glaring warning from the contact for the zone.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Sorry to say, but if it's not official, Memphis, nobody will care. You need a tutorial, in-game that explains various PvP strategies and conventions.
Problem is, that requires coding and work with the community, and it looks like it's either one or the other - not both.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You go there expecting pvp. You don't want pvp, don't enter the zone. Period.
[/ QUOTE ]
We are all entitled to opinions. Even you. Still, they are just opinions.
[/ QUOTE ]
Umm, no that's the way the zone is built. Hence the glaring warning from the contact for the zone.
[/ QUOTE ]
And still people go there and don't expect PvP. They have opinions. So do you. So do the devs. But not even the devs can make one opinion wrong and one right - not as long as the guiding principle is that anything you are able to do in PvP is legit to do in PvP. Refusing to PvP is also PvP behavior.
By putting PvE content in the zone, they invite PvE players into the zone, thus inducing PvE behavior. These PvE people do not want to PvP and have the opinion that PvP sucks. They cannot stop anyone from attacking them - just as duelists and other special interest groups cannot - but they can protest verbally making zone chat even more hostile and they can get pissed off at the PvP community and backtalk it.
Many PvPers have the opinion these people should be hounded and hurt just becaus they are easy prey, which of course reinforces the above attitude. When opinions clash, there is conflict.
The only way to avoid this conflict is to eliminate PvE elements in the zone.
[ QUOTE ]
The only way to avoid this conflict is to eliminate PvE
[/ QUOTE ]
/Signed.
PvP Servers where you gain a bar per kill? Ooooh yeaaaah!
You can't spell Slaughter without laughter
All your gonna do is just farm behemoths anyways.
My thoughts on November 30.
Darq_Aura wrote:
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You go there expecting pvp. You don't want pvp, don't enter the zone. Period.
[/ QUOTE ]
We are all entitled to opinions. Even you. Still, they are just opinions.
[/ QUOTE ]
Umm, no that's the way the zone is built. Hence the glaring warning from the contact for the zone.
[/ QUOTE ]
Except for the fact that "the way the zone is built" also includes non-PVP PVE content. So you might understand why some non-PVP players might think they could still enter, even with the warning.
--NT
They all laughed at me when I said I wanted to be a comedian.
But I showed them, and nobody's laughing at me now!
If I became a red name, I would be all "and what would you mere mortals like to entertain me with today, mu hu ha ha ha!" ~Arcanaville
I don't see how some folks still want to deny that PvE content in the PvP zone is a lure to get non-PvPers in the zone. Honestly if you took all of it out, you would be left with a streamlined version of the Arena.
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
Indeed.
But in a way, that content I guess to mean that you "PVPed" or risked the danger of PVP to get it and thus it is you reward. So I dont get why people throw a fit when they get killed in a pvp enabled zones but hey, that is them. They can throw a fit, dont bother me nor will I specifically target them. They will get equal treatment from me as if they are like another smoe joe in the pvp world. What you expect me to let you get that shivan so you can use it against me in SC? Yeah, right.
And yeah, refusing to fight is a pvp tactic. Not exactly one I would recommend if you want to live, but a tactic none the less. And in many places especially in SC, people wont stop trying to kill you just because you wont fight back. More than likely in Sc they are trying to kill you because you are their bounty and they are tryign to get PVP badges just as you or ya friend is trying to get pve badges.
Ao how do we solve this? Well I 've seen many good answers and suggestion in this post. They might all work in some way or fashion.
But I hope that it in someway could benefit the people that dont want to pvp and the hardcore pvper. Meaning you dont want the general population of pvp to die nore do you want a zone full of people that dont pvp. I mean killing sitting ducks (unless or are playing the stalker) is fun for the first time sometimes but it get old.
I'm for just removing the pve content from the zones. But also I wish there was some way to get more casual players into pvp more often or something. It seems so black in white. You have ya hardcore level 50 pvp spec toons or you have people who generally avoid it unless they are pvping with friends. It gets a bit annoying but understandable as a casual pvper to try and get new people in and they say "I dont have a pvp spec toon" It's almost as if the world of pvp has now become the "either you're a hardcore pvper or stay out" world. Hell in that case might as well give them their own server. Wait, aint that what test is for?
But wouldn't it be nice to have a build a pvp toon option where levels are out the window as in there is no "levels". You get in, build it to level 50 equivalent. Save it, and go pvp and this is ya pvp toon. That way pvpers dont even have to worry about pve content or what not. They have their own stores for pvp enhancements, and other stuff to give them the edge. And you get acces to that stuff by defeating opponents or fighting. Yeah I'm sure there will be some way to exploit that but if you think about it everything and anything can be exploited. Hell, just give them their own game. COX:PVP coming to stores this Fall.
-Female Player-
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by mauk2
Evil_Legacy became one of my favorite posters with two words.
"Kick Rocks." I laffed so hard. Never change, E_L! |
[ QUOTE ]
Darq_Aura wrote:
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
You go there expecting pvp. You don't want pvp, don't enter the zone. Period.
[/ QUOTE ]
We are all entitled to opinions. Even you. Still, they are just opinions.
[/ QUOTE ]
Umm, no that's the way the zone is built. Hence the glaring warning from the contact for the zone.
[/ QUOTE ]
Except for the fact that "the way the zone is built" also includes non-PVP PVE content. So you might understand why some non-PVP players might think they could still enter, even with the warning.
--NT
[/ QUOTE ]
Who said anything about not entering? You most certainly can enter. Expecting not to get attacked though is idiocy.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
[ QUOTE ]
Except for the fact that "the way the zone is built" also includes non-PVP PVE content. So you might understand why some non-PVP players might think they could still enter, even with the warning.
[/ QUOTE ]
The warning is pretty clear. Certainly some of the PvE rewards (like Shivans) are very tempting, but they come with the understanding that they are in a PvP environment. Players who don't like PvP can certainly go in to get those rewards, but they don't have grounds for complaint if they are attacked by other players on the way.
I don't like PvP, so I don't go into the PvP zones at all. I consider any rewards in the zones (badges, Shivans, nukes, etc) to be PvP-oriented rewards. They don't require PvP, but they may very well result in PvP.
[ QUOTE ]
I don't like PvP, so I don't go into the PvP zones at all. I consider any rewards in the zones (badges, Shivans, nukes, etc) to be PvP-oriented rewards. They don't require PvP, but they may very well result in PvP.
[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't have a problem if the rewards were solely for the risk of PvP, but they have the NPCs that must be dealt with as well, so does that make them PvP or PvE rewards?
"Samual_Tow - Be disappointed all you want, people. You just don't appreciate the miracles that are taking place here."
both, after all everyone even PVPers need to PVE to level to get into the zones
Does not always detect CoH
[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't have a problem if the rewards were solely for the risk of PvP, but they have the NPCs that must be dealt with as well, so does that make them PvP or PvE rewards?
[/ QUOTE ]
The rewards are PvP because PvP is the risk that is taken for getting them. The NPCs are the means by which the devs decided the rewards would be obtained.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't like PvP, so I don't go into the PvP zones at all. I consider any rewards in the zones (badges, Shivans, nukes, etc) to be PvP-oriented rewards. They don't require PvP, but they may very well result in PvP.
[/ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't have a problem if the rewards were solely for the risk of PvP, but they have the NPCs that must be dealt with as well, so does that make them PvP or PvE rewards?
[/ QUOTE ]
They are both PvE and PvP rewards. That's why I prefer to think of them as PvP-oriented rewards. To get the rewards, you have to be willing to put up with a PvP environment, even if you manage to gain the rewards without being attacked.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I wouldn't have a problem if the rewards were solely for the risk of PvP, but they have the NPCs that must be dealt with as well, so does that make them PvP or PvE rewards?
[/ QUOTE ]
The rewards are PvP because PvP is the risk that is taken for getting them. The NPCs are the means by which the devs decided the rewards would be obtained.
[/ QUOTE ]
Okay, now ask yourself if this philosophy helps or hurts PVP playerbase-growth.
[ QUOTE ]
My question is, why do we need another form of flagging on top of that that would be less effective, allow for exploits and would only exacerbate existing issues?
[/ QUOTE ]
Simple. To make the zones more noob friendly and get some people in there.
H_B's flagging system may, as you say, cause more problems than it solves. Maybe so. I think it's pretty well thought out, but maybe that's just me. If it really would be a huge disaster, is there another system you can think up that wouldn't, and yet would still stimulate population growth? Co* PvP is in trouble without some kind of new ideas.